Ambush App III vs Backstab App III

[Vestas]

Anyone have any conclusive results. I swear my backstab does more damage then my ambush. If that's the case then Ambush is essentially worthless as a first strike from stealth ability. I'd rather just sneak up and backstab.

Ambush seems to be about on par with Sneak attack. Then again I have no logs to prove it just dissapointment in the 30-45 dmg I do with ambush (at level 17) vs. the 45-55 I tend to do with backstab.

[rooksarii]

I was under the assumption that ambush was a stronger skill. Maybe the issue is that ambush has a higher ceiling for damage, but also a lower floor?
These numbers are just for comparison's sake, but say the skills damage output is as follows:

Ambush: 10 - 60 damage median damage of 33
Backstab: 30-45 damage median damage of 38

You could easily say that backstab will on average hit for more simply due to it's smaller range, and maybe that is the case here. It is not monumentally different, but it goes to show the relation of potential and average damage between the two moves MAY be the reason for your findings.

I cannot speak for certain, but both are useful attacks. Remember you can (even as a rogue and not a predator) hit sneak, turn off auto attack right befor sneak completes and then hit ambush to pull the skill off during active (even solo) combat. Backstab is dependant on a position behind the target, and solo would require a cheap shot and auto attack off to work.

Forever RAR! and Kudos,

Rooksarii
16 Rogue, Najena, The Wathchkeepers

[Tannier]

I can confirm that with matching App levels the non-stealthed skill consistently hits for more.


Very strange.

Maybe Ambush was too powerful and got tweaked down.

With the time it takes to go into stealth mode, I can't say that hiding and then ambushing during combat seems like much of a tactic anymore.

[Gerda Jurtafryde]

Backstab also has a long reuse time, so it is better to use ambush to start out a fight. Saving backstab for combat is important because it can be used in a heroic opportunity chain.

[Waylander]

Is backstab known by a different name? I don't think I have it (level 12 Predator) or am I too low to have it yet? I do have Shadow Blade (I think that is the name for it). Is that it?

[Maht Stohlit]

Rogues are the ones who get backstab. Predators have a different path.

[Jayan]

I think Preds get Back shot or something at 10 instead of backstab

[Peebs]

Preds get 'Shadow Blade', which is a positional stealth based attack. Backstab is probably better early on, or at least until predators get the 'stalk' ability and can more quickly and easily stealth during combat.

[Mideon]

What you do is start the fight with ambush since you're not likely to stealth again during the fight. Then you use backstab throughout the fight, if you get a chance to use it more than once anyway.

Solo you start with ambush, then cheap shot em and use backstab. Chuck the rest of your attack skills on and that mob's long dead.

[coyoteblack]

wow mideon ain't you the same guy that jumped off kelethin tower way back when? any way is there a way to use a macro to cut off auto attack when you use cheap shot i can for the life of me turn off auto atacck get to the back of the mob and re-backstab especially in a sol fight not so hard in a group.

[agra]

From level 1-13 for my Rogue, Ambush and Backstab damage parsed thusly...
(obviously Backstab is only from level 10-13, and Ambush from 7-13, but apparently I use Backstab far more)

Ambush:
Total accumulated damage: 4785
Total lines parsed: 168
Average hit damage: 28.48
Damage value 15 count is 2 1.19%
Damage value 18 count is 3 1.79%
Damage value 19 count is 4 2.38%
Damage value 20 count is 8 4.76%
Damage value 21 count is 4 2.38%
Damage value 22 count is 18 10.71%
Damage value 23 count is 5 2.98%
Damage value 24 count is 11 6.55%
Damage value 25 count is 9 5.36%
Damage value 26 count is 12 7.14%
Damage value 27 count is 10 5.95%
Damage value 28 count is 11 6.55%
Damage value 29 count is 10 5.95%
Damage value 30 count is 8 4.76%
Damage value 31 count is 4 2.38%
Damage value 32 count is 7 4.17%
Damage value 33 count is 5 2.98%
Damage value 34 count is 3 1.79%
Damage value 35 count is 4 2.38%
Damage value 36 count is 6 3.57%
Damage value 37 count is 2 1.19%
Damage value 38 count is 5 2.98%
Damage value 39 count is 2 1.19%
Damage value 40 count is 3 1.79%
Damage value 41 count is 3 1.79%
Damage value 42 count is 2 1.19%
Damage value 43 count is 1 0.60%
Damage value 44 count is 1 0.60%
Damage value 45 count is 1 0.60%
Damage value 46 count is 1 0.60%
Damage value 47 count is 1 0.60%
Damage value 48 count is 2 1.19%

Backstab:
Total accumulated damage: 8577
Total lines parsed: 263
Average hit damage: 32.61
Damage value 22 count is 4 1.52%
Damage value 23 count is 9 3.42%
Damage value 24 count is 3 1.14%
Damage value 25 count is 10 3.80%
Damage value 26 count is 15 5.70%
Damage value 27 count is 18 6.84%
Damage value 28 count is 20 7.60%
Damage value 29 count is 25 9.51%
Damage value 30 count is 16 6.08%
Damage value 31 count is 8 3.04%
Damage value 32 count is 15 5.70%
Damage value 33 count is 15 5.70%
Damage value 34 count is 14 5.32%
Damage value 35 count is 16 6.08%
Damage value 36 count is 11 4.18%
Damage value 37 count is 8 3.04%
Damage value 38 count is 8 3.04%
Damage value 39 count is 7 2.66%
Damage value 40 count is 3 1.14%
Damage value 41 count is 9 3.42%
Damage value 42 count is 8 3.04%
Damage value 43 count is 4 1.52%
Damage value 44 count is 3 1.14%
Damage value 45 count is 1 0.38%
Damage value 46 count is 6 2.28%
Damage value 47 count is 1 0.38%
Damage value 48 count is 2 0.76%
Damage value 49 count is 2 0.76%
Damage value 50 count is 2 0.76%

Now using a smaller sample set (just last night, level 12-13) ...

Ambush:
Total accumulated damage: 2867
Total lines parsed: 88
Average hit damage: 32.58
Damage value 20 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 21 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 22 count is 3 3.41%
Damage value 24 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 25 count is 7 7.95%
Damage value 26 count is 4 4.55%
Damage value 27 count is 6 6.82%
Damage value 28 count is 4 4.55%
Damage value 29 count is 8 9.09%
Damage value 30 count is 3 3.41%
Damage value 31 count is 4 4.55%
Damage value 32 count is 7 7.95%
Damage value 33 count is 3 3.41%
Damage value 34 count is 2 2.27%
Damage value 35 count is 4 4.55%
Damage value 36 count is 6 6.82%
Damage value 37 count is 2 2.27%
Damage value 38 count is 5 5.68%
Damage value 39 count is 2 2.27%
Damage value 40 count is 3 3.41%
Damage value 41 count is 3 3.41%
Damage value 42 count is 2 2.27%
Damage value 43 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 44 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 45 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 46 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 47 count is 1 1.14%
Damage value 48 count is 2 2.27%

Backstab:
Total accumulated damage: 6953
Total lines parsed: 209
Average hit damage: 33.27
Damage value 22 count is 3 1.44%
Damage value 23 count is 7 3.35%
Damage value 24 count is 1 0.48%
Damage value 25 count is 7 3.35%
Damage value 26 count is 12 5.74%
Damage value 27 count is 15 7.18%
Damage value 28 count is 15 7.18%
Damage value 29 count is 19 9.09%
Damage value 30 count is 10 4.78%
Damage value 31 count is 7 3.35%
Damage value 32 count is 10 4.78%
Damage value 33 count is 10 4.78%
Damage value 34 count is 12 5.74%
Damage value 35 count is 10 4.78%
Damage value 36 count is 9 4.31%
Damage value 37 count is 6 2.87%
Damage value 38 count is 8 3.83%
Damage value 39 count is 7 3.35%
Damage value 40 count is 3 1.44%
Damage value 41 count is 9 4.31%
Damage value 42 count is 8 3.83%
Damage value 43 count is 4 1.91%
Damage value 44 count is 3 1.44%
Damage value 45 count is 1 0.48%
Damage value 46 count is 6 2.87%
Damage value 47 count is 1 0.48%
Damage value 48 count is 2 0.96%
Damage value 49 count is 2 0.96%
Damage value 50 count is 2 0.96%

They're quite similar...

Draw your own conclusions. :)

[Maxtor]

Agra -
What are you using for a parser? Did you write your own?

If you got a place I can download it I would greatly appreciate it. Im trying to put together some information on poisons and their applications.

Thank you,

[Bayler]

For what it's worth, as a 22 ranger I still use Ambush all the time, despite the fact that it's grey. I do a ton more damage per hit with Shadowblade (requires stealth and postion, long reuse delay), but Ambush refreshes faster.

A typical fight group fight for me, assuming no heroic oportunities, starts like this:

Hunter's Instinct (agi buff)
Hunt (stealth)
target the tank
Ambush (stealthed attack for 75ish)
Bleed (damage over time)
Impale (80ish DD + reduces target's piercing defence for a short while)
Shrouded Strike + autoattack-off (positional attack for 90ish puts you in stealth)
Shadowblade (Positional stealthed attack for 250ish)
Sneak Attack (positional attack for 60ish)
Back Shot (positional ranged attack for 200ish)
Wounding Arrow (hits for about 30 and lowers targets defences)
Shrouded Strike + autoattack-off again
Ambush again

For soloing, Cheap Shot + autoattack-off + Stalk + Ambush is a lot easier than with Shadowblade. But I usually focus on HOs instead.

[agra]

Agra -
What are you using for a parser? Did you write your own?

If you got a place I can download it I would greatly appreciate it. Im trying to put together some information on poisons and their applications.

Thank you,

Wrote mine in perl.


#!/usr/bin/perl

while (<>) { #onward, green hornet!
$search_var = "YOU hit"; #unique to melee attacks
if ($pattern_match = grep (/$search_var/, $_)) { #ensure this line matches
split (/for/,$_); #grab the right side from for
$val=@_[1]; #pull that part out
split (/ /,$val); #grab just the number
$dmg_value = @_[1]; #and assign that
if ($dmg_value) { #if we have a number
$hash_dmg{$dmg_value} += 1; #make the dmg count array
$linecount++; #this is a valid line, so count it
$total_dmg=$total_dmg+$dmg_value; #add this dmg line to total
} #close if ($dmg
} #close if ($pattern_match
} #close while (<>)
if ($total_dmg && $linecount ) { #do we have results?
$average=$total_dmg / $linecount; #then calculate the average
print "Total accumulated damage: $total_dmg\n"; #print total dmg
print "Total lines parsed: $linecount\n"; #print line count
print "Average hit damage:"; #print avg dmg
printf " %2.2f\n", $average; #with formatting
foreach $keys ( sort {$a <=> $b} keys %hash_dmg ) { #walk through hash
$pct = $hash_dmg{$keys} / $linecount * 100; #calc percent
print "Damage value $keys count is $hash_dmg{$keys}"; #print each key in the hash
printf " %2.2f%%\n", $pct; #with percent formatted right
} #close foreach $keys
} #close if ($total_dmg
exit; #and done


If you replace


$search_var = "YOU hit"; #unique to melee attacks


with


$search_var = "YOUR"; #unique to Combat Arts


and then just grep out the particular art you're looking for a pipe it in there, you get some good Combat Art parsing as well.

And for the love of Brell, keep your freaking perl code-monkey comments to yourself. If you can write better perl, go for it, but arrogance and condescension is not being solicited here.

(that's not speaking to you, Maxtor, that's speaking to the suspender wearing hippies who love offering 'help' with perl)

[Joonling]

any way is there a way to use a macro to cut off auto attack when you use cheap shot i can for the life of me turn off auto atacck get to the back of the mob and re-backstab especially in a sol fight not so hard in a group.

I just use the ~ button since that's the default attack button. I stealth (ALT 1), hit ambush (ALT 2), hit cheap shot (3), ~, then backstab (2).

[Taroven]

A bit late here, but here's the skivvy on Ambush based on what I've seen:

The difference between Ambush and Sneak Attack/Backstab/Shadow Blade is that it's not a positional attack. Thus, it's only really worth using from the front, or while waiting for other abilities to pop. As an Assassin, it becomes fairly useful every once in a while while killing agro: Evade, Stalk (also reduces agro), Ambush. It's fairly low agro, so Evade and Stalk more than cancel it out.
It becomes a bit more useful with Shrouded Strike because of its low refresh time, between Shadow Blade and Cut Throat timers. It's never exactly won a fight for me, but it comes in handy in a pinch.

Hope that helped...

Taroven, lvl 20 Assasson (Butcherblock) of the Knights of Necropolis.