View Full Version : Heroic Opportunities - Overpowered?
Prior to figuring out HO's, my solo attack pattern went something like this:
Sneak, approach, open with Ambush.
Quickstrike off the bat, chain every refresh.
Hit cheap shot, turn off attack and circle for sneak attack (backstab's rear arc is hideously tiny)
With this method, I was able to solo most blues. Getting an add usually meant hitting sprint.
Then I figured out HO's. With just the basic LuckyBreak + (Evade/Dirtytrick/Cheapshot) + Quickstrike I was soloing oranges, or groups of blues. These attacks recycle MUCH faster than Cheapshot/Backstab and require no positioning.
Group HO's are even more ridiculous. I find myself having to focus entirely on the HO 'wheel' to maximize my DPS, ignoring my own attack paterns. I feel compelled to do this because every 2 or 3 times I'd hit one, it would be while an HO was going off but by the time I noticed it my reflexes weren't fast enough to stop the attack. Using my own attack patterns broke the chains.
I like the idea of "Heroic Opportunities" but I really feel that they're simply too powerful for how commonplace they are. Once every several fights would be better IMO than several times every one fight. I feel that regular melee and 'non-heroic' special attacks should do more damage for your run-of-the-mill fight. HO's should stay powerful, perhaps even tweaked up a bit more, but be on a significantly longer refresh timer.
Moving to this system would give much more freedom in individual attack styles and allow players to focus more on the fight/scenery/chat and IMO would improve the gaming experience significantly.
Slyy Daugg
11-18-04, 09:53 PM
I'd be expecting many nerfs in the very near future. Alot of this stuff is practically gimmies for all the early birds, if you ask me.
Just got lvl 10 and am fighting green *group* mobs in forest ruins and making 2 blues per kill. I'm pretty sure that's gonna end real quick.
And yes, it's possible simply because of non-stop HO's.
Get it while the getting's good.
SD
Meh. I hope they don't change it. The HOs are one of my favorite parts of the game. Instead of spamming the same attacks over and over, you have to think about what you're going to press. In a group situation, at least. My two roommates were playing earlier, taking down mobs with teamwork and tactics. Well, at some point they decided to add a warrior to the mix, for tanking. All he ended up doing was screwing up all the HOs, resulting in a deaths. The more people you add, the harder it gets to manage the system.
Of course, I'm VERY biased towards this system. It lends itself well to being in the same apartment as half your group. By talking to each other, it's much easier to plan things out. Tons of other benefits come from this as well, so who knows? It sure is easier for someone to yell out "Move forward, mob behind you!" then to type it.
I'd also love to see how it effects raids. Do you put all of a certain class in one group, because they generally use the same spells and won't have to worry about messing chains up? Or do you try and optimize it, for buffs and the like? It'll be interesting to see if they remain as buffed as they are.
Being in the room would certainly help. In a pickup group setting, at least the ones I've been in, it's a miracle if a HO gets successfully carried out. The action's simply too fast and with a bit of lag the chain gets broken so easily. Solo though, oh man, these things are very good and I suspect in a group setting they must be even better.
Just watch out for those AE ones! They cause more trouble than they are worth. :p
You might want to see what the higher levels are before you start with the overpowered/nerf threads.
:banghead
You might want to see what the higher levels are before you start with the overpowered/nerf threads.
:bangheadI disagree. Balance should exist at all levels of the game.
Mobs get harder, and it's pretty difficult to use group HOs effectively with more than 2 or 3 people.
I think a lot of you are thinking in turns of EQ1 'con' strength, where a blue mob at level 60 could wipe the floor with most people.
I agree. The rats outside Freeport should require a full group.
:evil
Silvorn
11-19-04, 01:58 PM
My biggest problem with HO is it has turned things into a playstation reflex/clickfest in a group. To use them effectively I'm not watching the combat I'm staring at the wheel and figuring out what I need to hit. They should be a bonus but not what you have to focus on during a fight.
They are a bonus. You are perfectly effective without them.
My biggest problem with HO is it has turned things into a playstation reflex/clickfest in a group. To use them effectively I'm not watching the combat I'm staring at the wheel and figuring out what i need to hit. Tehy should be a bonus but not what you have to focus on during a fight.My point exactly.
Once in awhile or in desparation if things start to go south? = Good
Losing *significant* efficiency unless you ignore everything but the wheel every fight = VERY Bad
Saying they're a "bonus" is akin to saying auto-attack in EQ1 is a bonus for Rogues.
Saying they're a "bonus" is akin to saying auto-attack in EQ1 is a bonus for Rogues.
You are exaggerating. You only lose signifigant efficiency if you are soloing, and even then it gets less signifgant as you level and get more abilities. The problem with watching the wheel too closely in a group is that often while you are busy watching it many of your attacks are sitting idle going to waste. Multiply that over the course of the group, and it turns into a big deal. If the wizard is holding back nuking, the assassin is holding back striking, and the warrior is holding back taunting all for fear of breaking the wheel your group is actually worse off because of it.
I'm not implying that it's better to ignore HOs, it's just that in a group scenario most of the time people have jobs to do regardless of where it fits into the HO. Personally, I wouldn't want my tank avoiding a taunt for fear of messing up an HO or a wizard overnuking and gaining aggro because his 'turn' was up.
It's a neat system, and I honestly don't believe there is any way you can definitively say they are overpowered when the game is so young. It's quite possible that once people level up a bit and figure out the system there will be 'uber' HO combos that tear through mobs, but from what I've seen I'm not convinced they are overpowered in a group situation which most of the game is geared towards.
Besides, do you really prefer the boring 'click auto-attack and spam backstab and evade' combat of EQ? Personally, I like fighting that makes me think a little bit. I see it as sort of an evolution of the Dark Age of Camelot styles (often you had reactive styles that were more effective but could only be done in a chain, after a parry, or after a block).
The problem with watching the wheel too closely in a group is that often while you are busy watching it many of your attacks are sitting idle going to waste.Yes, yes yes! This is actually why I feel HO's should be much, much more rare yet just as powerful as (or more than!) they are now.
Besides, do you really prefer the boring 'click auto-attack and spam backstab and evade' combat of EQ? Personally, I like fighting that makes me think a little bit.No I agree with you, just in a different way. I think the available frequency HO system is detrimental to this.
Those 'idle' attacks are what I want to be using! Skill+Strategy should be preferred over twitch-reflexes (or pattern memorization) but right now it's the other way around.
I feel that big increases to HO refresh, while simultaneous buffing of non-HO special moves and melee auto-attack to compensate is the ideal solution, though I welcome other ideas.
Personally, I think once group HOs are 'figured out' I think there will be one or two that groups will go for once or twice a fight. Maybe a buff to begin the fight and a power/health heal to end it. Of course they are random, but that's where scouts come in (give you a free reroll trying to get the effect you want).
It will be interesting to see how important they end up in the end game, but for now I'd say just don't worry about them so much and use all of your fun abilities. :p
(Also, not every class is involved in every HO, so you can completely ignore a lot of them unless you want to try to change the outcome)
Rogue has always been a twitch class. You don't evade the second the mob turns on you you die. That's not twitch? I still think some people are jumping to conclusions without even hitting their subclass.
Rogue has always been a twitch class. You don't evade the second the mob turns on you you die. That's not twitch? I still think some people are jumping to conclusions without even hitting their subclass.I think it goes without saying that there's more to Rogue aggro control than waiting for a mob to turn on you. Also 'instagib' syndrome was never really a problem until PoP.
I'm not discussing aggro control. I'm pointing out that there is and always has been a twitch factor involved in playing a rogue. Whether it be evading, positioning, etc...
coyoteblack
11-20-04, 10:01 AM
I dont think ho's are over powered, just at level 10 the green mobs are eiser. also group ho's are rare to get off.
solo ho's are what makes us a viable solo class. it seems scouts have a better understanding of ho's then most classes so please dont post nerf posts untill we have all tried the 30 plus game.
Ignas Atergradus
11-22-04, 10:45 AM
Okay, so I just started really experimenting with HO's the last few days and have only tried a group HO once. From my initial experiences I don't think they are over powered.
Solo I look at them more like a "combo" type system. Where, you do this, this and this, wham you smack the monster harder (think, poke 'em in the eye, trip 'em, cut their throat for da win!). You are perfectally welcome to do just your regular attacks, it's just when you "combo" them you get more out of it.
Group I haven't had a good look at it... my initial impression is group ho's (I snicker when I see that and think enuendo) as just not getting a good deal of play because combats are just soooo short right now. I think they are more for a long drawn out battle. Which I probably won't see for a while.
Initial opinion, I like them, but it does take a lot of my attention away from the battle.