View Full Version : Group Death Debt / Break Encounter|Disband tactic(s)-
Alasdair
11-26-04, 11:56 AM
So, I saw a few posts speaking about debt and in general what people see as flaws in the grouping system.
I'd like to share a small tactic with everyone, but I imagine most of us are already aware of the use of the /yell command to break an encounter. So, I'll be brief. If you want to avoid useless and even more important unwarranted xp debt then you can do two things-
* Wisely use the /yell command to break encounters and then disband. I have used, and asked others to use in my groups this same tactic so that people are not burdened with debt they did not need to incur.
* Group with people you are familiar with. In addition, try not to accept an invite before you discover the current status, location, and ability of any group you join. Its very unwise to just say /ooc LFG and then hit yes when you get the invite pop-up. Ask some questions before hand. A good group leader will appreciate the fact your asking about class balance, and levels of others in the group.
Why should we all be embracing the /yell to break and disband? Well, its just smart playing. Especially, if your away from the group and you pop'd aggro or made a bad pull. Its not the groups "responsibility" for your inadequate knowledge (e.g. Ignorance). Also, its not the groups fault if they asked you to run to them from zone in.
In closing, I'm still learning this and have made some really dumb mistakes the last two weeks that my group has paid for. However, we all understand its a learning curve and the above tactic is really starting to make a difference. We don't die as much lately, and we have less shared group xp debt.
I for one think this grouping system is far superior to eq1. It really does give you a better advantage if you embrace the social aspect of the game and form bonds with other players.
Regards,
Alasdair Isiki
Swashbuckler of Befallen
EQ2 is a social game and the exp debt mechanic is an aspect of the game that encourages social exchange. If someone does something stupid and gets the group lots of debt, there will be a social exchange. Players that learn from these social encounters become successful. Players that don't will begin to have trouble finding groups.
I feel that the community should embrace this function rather than trying to find *less than crafty* ways to get around it. Shared exp debt serves a purpose and trying to cheat it really only hurts everyone in the long run.
Arakasi
11-27-04, 04:16 PM
Yes, well, unfortunately there are two problems with the community accepting this function rather than working ways to get around it:
1. There are obviously ways to get around the debt, and, in the end, because of this the debt itself is worthless, so eventually Sony will either remove it all together or create further restrictions upon it so that it will become less possible to get around it.
2. The system is already too strict as it is, making some of the more useful functions of the game essentially worthless (i.e. inviting from across a zone, etc.) and punishing good players for grouping with bad ones, which isn't really something that anyone can help (yes, yes, you can always group with the same people, but sometimes it's less feasible than for others). The whole idea of "social exchange" is nothing but idealistic nonsense that completely ignores the true dynamic of how the game itself plays.
The whole idea of "social exchange" is nothing but idealistic nonsense that completely ignores the true dynamic of how the game itself plays.
Yeah, that nonsense created the greatest MMORPG to date. I wish I had some nonsense to market. cha-ching.
It depends on the group if i do a /yell and disband. If its because we pulled something too tough or we got spawned on ill eat the death with the rest of the group. If they are complete morons like the cleric running around in circles yelling get it off or someone pulls when people have no mana it's a yell and disband.
Also getting hit with debt when your all the way across a zone is ****ing retarded. It's gotten to the point of no one invites you unless your next to them. So now you have to try and find people blindly instead of using the nice feature they put in of alt+w.
Helenda
11-27-04, 07:30 PM
3 days in a row I log in to get inviited to a group and someone dies while I'm on my way to the group. The group wipes due to someone pulling without looking if everybody had mana or wasn't LD. Last night I played for 4 hours and I had a 20% exp debt and I dug my way out just before I logged.
I hate getting to a group having some dill weeds die 2 or 3 times and then the group splits leaving me with their exp debt.
Joonling
11-28-04, 12:25 PM
One night, after playing for 4 hrs, I ended up logging with 35% debt when I logged in 4% from level. yes, I did get my level, but also a whole lot of red. People were being stupid, I made a stupid move, and things went to hell. Finally got into a good group and then BAM everyone had to log since it was so freakin late.
Worst idea ever shared exp loss and the penalty is way to harsh. i join a group we add Susy druid she dies like 3 times on the way to us how is that my fault??
I WILL use the disband technique until this BS is removed. Plus it discourages challenging yourself on a close encounter. See a named, look at group, hmm its going to be close, so we take the thing down to a sliver of red, tank down, me down, cleric down, caster down etc. We got sooooo close but nobody wants to try agion cause we now have 20% debt. I find the entire process assanine.
Tannier
11-29-04, 07:57 AM
At an absolute minimum, group debt should be limited to the same physical range that exp/kill credits are limited to.
Arakasi
11-29-04, 11:08 AM
The whole idea of "social exchange" is nothing but idealistic nonsense that completely ignores the true dynamic of how the game itself plays.
Yeah, that nonsense created the greatest MMORPG to date. I wish I had some nonsense to market. cha-ching.
The "nonsense of 'social exchange'" that I was referring to was what the above poster had mentioned it as, in regards to his/her apparent championing of the group debt system. I do not idly surround phrases with quotes for no apparent reason.
Y'know, when I join a group and within a minute 3 people in it are dead, the next minute 2 of them die again I'm not thinking "I need to help these people and sort out the group" because chances are they're far beyond any help I can provide. I'm thinking "I better get the hell out of here and do some much safer soloing before these suicide monkeys get me even more debt". Thank god I can solo for some xp and do gathering quests, because there's nothing to really ruin the mood like getting 2-3 bubs of debt in the first 5 minutes of a group when I was the only person who wasn't stupid enough to die repeatedly. Or the only person who wasn't even close to the massacre.
Usually when I have one of those terrible debt experiences I just call it a night. One nice thing about EQ2 is that your debt will decrease while you are offline (not that I'm recommending going offline, but it's nice to know that you can just call it quits and won't have to deal with it all later).
My sentiments exactly.
Death happens. XP is easily recovered. It's not the end of the world. I've found the groups that die occasionally are trying something new and fun rather than pull, kill, med, pull, kill, med... I'm more apt to leave XP grind groups out of sheer boredom than one seeking some sort of progression.
They've removed death penalties and taken 99% of the risk out of the picture.
The good part about the debt is i think that it really punishes the stupid.
Noone will group with people who die like lemmings all the time (i had a 12 enchanter run into the mean spiders down in BB TWICE (second time he tried to recover his shard) without telling the group ....
I will for sure not group with that guy again soon.
On the other hand when i am with guildmates and not in pickup groups it also gets us closer together, since you actually have to take care of your people and constructive critism happens more often then it did in EQ1.
I like it even though sometimes its annoying.
Dekiri
Swashy on Oasis
Darkefang
11-30-04, 08:11 AM
This is the kind of stuff that makes me not even want to try and group. If I'm in constant fear of doing something stupid and having my group dump me, it is no longer fun to play. However, if I'm not grouping and making mistakes, I don't really know how I'm supposed to ever learn what the hell I'm supposed to be doing.
I look at it this way.. at least you dont lose exp.. it just really really REALLY slows down. Hell i was soloing (or trying to) in Thundering Steppes and in my own fit of stubborn ass-ness ran myself into a 115% debt.. with recovered shards. I'd much rather this than say actually losing exp or de-levelling. Worst comes to worst.. take a night off and "sleep off" some debt .
Hodurbear just group up and don't worry about it. At it's heart, EQ2 is like any other MMORPG. Some people are dicks and will give people who make a mistake a hard time, but usually people just shrug it off. The problem is when people keep doing the same thing over and over again.
The best thing I've found is to group with guildies. If you can't do that, trust your gut. If the leader of the group never responds to anybody and seems to pull regardless of the cleric's mana or afk status, get out of there ASAP.
Sassinak
12-07-04, 09:21 AM
The group leader gets to decide who is allowed to /yell to break encounters. If break-and-disband becomes common, then you will just see every group leader set /yell to leader-only.
splendora
12-16-04, 12:14 PM
"Also getting hit with debt when your all the way across a zone is !@#$ retarded"
I totally agree. Firstly I don't like grp exp debt itself; but if they have to keep it, they should at least have a proximity check to make sure
you're near the group before getting debt.
As it stands now - if I just join a group and get the invite across a zone
or whatever, and they start to die off, I reboot my pc. As long as I don't wait until they're down 90% or so I usually escape the debt.
I'll do the same if its a pickup grp and they start wiping stupidly at the
beginning.
torvrogue
12-17-04, 10:22 AM
The worst part of the debt system is it has produced what I call "debt wussies" who will not do anything that might involve ANY risk whatsoever.
Last night in Varsoon I was grouped killing golems and the guy wouldn't pull from behind the door we were standing in front of. Same EXACT golems behind the door, no risk of adds or anything, but he wouldn't pull them because he never had before. He'd rather run around looking for wandering ones with the other 3 groups.
That's what drives me nuts.
jaguarjp
12-18-04, 12:37 PM
What strikes me as MOST unfair about Sony's implementation of xp debt is that it can be, and is delivered zonewide, whereas spell buffs, quest credit, experience from kills and loot lotto rights have a much smaller and defined range.
In short: how the F can you justify dealing an xp debt to someone across the zone, who just joined the group(or whatever), when that same person isn't being given ANY positive benefits from being in the group?
Sergio the overly-dramatic poster
The worst part of the debt system is it has produced what I call "debt wussies" who will not do anything that might involve ANY risk whatsoever.
Last night in Varsoon I was grouped killing golems and the guy wouldn't pull from behind the door we were standing in front of. Same EXACT golems behind the door, no risk of adds or anything, but he wouldn't pull them because he never had before. He'd rather run around looking for wandering ones with the other 3 groups.
That's what drives me nuts.
I hear that, man. Trying to lead my groups into the deeper parts of Stormhold is like pulling teeth. Yeah, it's more dangerous. But y'know what? Danger is pretty ****ing fun!
DarthEnder
12-19-04, 01:11 AM
I lilke group XP debt. That way, if the group wants me to do something suicidal, like, be puller and I'm a Scout, I'm just like, 'Okay, its your debt man' and go about my business pulling and dying or whatever.
Axian-OoP
12-22-04, 09:07 AM
As a healer (Defiler) in EQ 2 I find the whoile "Disband before I get Debt" Cowardly, insulting and flat out rude.
Let me tell you a story....
I had a tank who I'll call Asshat_01 who would pull 4-5 mobs at once - no big deal - then asshat_01 would refuse to taunt mobs off me (the healer) when I healed him and drew agro from the remaining mobs - So I would have to ward and heal myself or the poor wizard etc... then when it looked like one of us would die he would disband the group and run.... after the rest of us recovered and beat the encounter... asshat_01 would return and say he needed an invite... (Strike 1)...
So i invited him again and more of the same would happen, and he would run off again after disbanding.... (Strike 2)...
So I tell Asshat_01 don't disband like that again cuz its rather rude to the rest of the group... he said OK...
Asshat_01 pulls waay too many mobs back to the group and promptly disbands after I get turned into a grease spot after 1 heal on his retarded ass... (Strike 3)...
Luckily I had given a spirit rez pill to the Assassin who survived... the rest of us recover in the safe spot. When I get a /tell from Asshat_01 "Need Invite and Rez".... >=/ Oh by the way... Did I mentiuon his body is now in the very center of a group of 5 Doubel Up Yellow mobs.... Lucky Him Huh? I /tell Asshat_01 "Best of luck getting your Shard" ANd promptly throw his sorry stupid ass on ignore.
Ahhhh... I feel much better!
Disbanding to avoid Debt is a BAAAAAAD idea... it just shows the rest of the group that you are selfish and cowardly and rude. But thats just my opinion.
I do however agree that Death Debt should be proximity limited.... A Group member that dies on the other side of the zone should not give the rest of the group Debt.
Disbanding to avoid Debt is a BAAAAAAD idea... it just shows the rest of the group that you are selfish and cowardly and rude. But thats just my opinion.
You're not alone.
Heh, I've never seen it happen, and can't imagine ever willing sharing a group with someone who would go that far to avoid the measly xp debt
torvrogue
12-23-04, 01:23 AM
It's happened to me once, well not exactly but similar.
I had died on a hillside, actually one of the craters in TS, I don't know if anyone has noticed but if you die on a hillside like that it tends to bug you out and make you unrezzable, it will say you are too far away no matter where they stand to rez you.
So I had to revive.
There's one revive spot in TS that if you're lvl 25ish or under is just a complete death trap. I forget the exact name, but its on the southern coast. There's basically no way to get back to the giants or whever it is you died at from there because of tons of centaur and gnoll aggro.
So after dying, I get booted from the group because I might die getting back. No offer to help clear a path for me or anything, just a big FU.
I had two rules in EQ-Live . .
#1. You're going to die! (Get used to it . . .get over it)
#2. Don't Panic! (Afterall why panic if you know you're going to die.)
These rules apply to EQ-2 as well.
The "Ditch group to avoid debt" strategy is just someone panicking! Afterall, you never know, the group just might beat that 5 mob pull you weren't expecting. (Been there, done that . . and nothing feels better than turning a sure defeat into an amazing victory!)
Let the spellcaster do the panicking in there terry-cloth armor, we're scouts . . . you know the cool, sauve, level-headed guys.
nice theories..
Try maintaining it when your level 49 and you get 6% an hour in an absolutely fantastic group tops. At this level Debt Completely stops foward exp gain, also at this level most of us have Zero tolerance for stupidity. Debt does happen from time to time, but blatent stupidity is met much harsher in the 45+ game then anywhere else.
Quite honestly the Debt system is outright stupid. No matter how much debt one gains, they can still progress foward. there is no real penalty for stupidity outside players blacklisting someone. I vastly preferred it in EQ where the idiots would lose their levels and could not "sleep" off the results for being stupid. The group debt system especially in a raid situation is quite simply the most retarded aspect of the game. Go back to EQ, Penalize the Player not everyone else.
Fortunatlly Debt does not affect you at all at 50..I thank god for that. But I still utterly loath the system.