worth giving up yojack opener for more backstab dmg?

[tasdamon]

basically my thoughts are this: in a normal 21/8/22 build most people have imp cs 1 and 3 into imp backstab. this can lead to your normal yojack opener of CS > SS > gouge...etc.. however, ive found that in real pvp it's best to hit and run rather then try to stunlock to do dmg. would it be worth it to take one point from imp backstab and put it into imp cs?

that would lead to this opener: CS > BS > finisher
or if you really wanted to be nasty: CS > BS > vanish/tea > ambush > finisher

this would give you a second or so head start to restealth and let you open again. on rogues, you could 3-4 point rupture to stop restealth/bandage so you can open again and finish killing them. i think that on priests you could pull off that opener and still have time to run out of fear range.

i have yet to toy with this build but on paper it seems better for pvp. what are you guys thoughts?

[Arakasi]

It all really depends on what you're fighting. There's no real good build out there to fight against all classes. Stunlocking is great against rogues, but so is DoT and so is ambush/backstab. DoT is great against warriors, but so is stunlock. There's no good build for paladins. Ambush/backstab is great for mages and warlocks, but so is stunlock. Stunlock is great against shamen but so is DoT. Ambush/backstab is great against druids, but so is stunlock, etc. etc. Stunlocking is a nice build because it works fairly well against any opponent, however it's never the optimal choice, it's more like something you use when you're not sure about certain opponents, it's a nice default attack. You can probably beat opponents more efficiently without using stunlocks, but it's something that you can utilize when you think the opponent might be more skilled than you can handle (i.e. mainly with mages and priests this is a big problem).

[tasdamon]

well, by changing the build like i was thinking, you can still pull off a perfect stunlock but the build also gives you the option of the other opener i suggested at the cost of not having a guaranteed stunlock. however you would lose 10% chance to crit on backstab.

you think it's worth it?

[Arakasi]

For pvp purposes I think it's absolutely worth it. IMO backstabs are kind of a wild card in PvP; they're nice when they hit, but it's quite hard to land them, and on a skilled player it's almost impossible, so you're resorting to SS anyway to build CPs. Besides, the energy expense of a gouge/backstab build just doesn't seem conducive to how pvp for rogues actually works. It's great if you can circle strafe to land backstabs, but anyone even half skilled against rogues in pvp will defeat this, and gouge's expend far too much energy to be worthwhile for fast paced combat (which is, in essence, a rogues forte).

Without Seal Fate backstabs lose their value even further, unfortunately. IMO it's pointless to do a backstab build without seal fate anymore, just too much energy expenditure for not enough return (speaking pvp wise anyway).

[tasdamon]

hmm. good points. i think imma toy with it some and see if i can keep enough teas in my inventory to make it worth it lol.

[Exitilus]

relying on combos at all is silly, go without your "yojack" opening. (yojack = some newbie who named a very common build after himself)

[Nekron]

In group PvP, I spend most of my time stealthed.. and rarely am I presented with a 1 on 1 opportunity. Being an Alliance whore that I am, I'm usually finding a target right around the time 1-2 other Alliance people are as well. In those cases, I open up with am Ambush for Maximum damage output. If They're still alive, I go for whatever Stunlock esque combo's I can: Another SS -> Kidney Shot -> BS/SS/Whatever else/OMG They're still alive with 3 alliance pounding on theM!?

In 1 on 1 PvP I'd say it's a whole other ballgame. Most of my PvP has been in the Zerg-esque areas of SS/TM. In 1 on 1 PvP I usally do what I can to Stunlock folks, but in a big battlefield where you want to do as much damage as possible and then re-stealth before you're Zerg'd, I don't see Stunlock being at all viable when you've got some other class who's just waiting to put the hurt on you.

[tasdamon]

to bring conclusion to this thread, i used the imp CS 2 choice for a long time and loved it. CS > BS > vanish/tea > ambush > CB evis killed more 60s in 4 seconds then i can count. priests and warlocks and slow mages were toast before they knew what hit them. however, teas got kind of expensive and i also found myself rather bored of the lagfest that pvp has turned in to and i've found myself doing more instances. i respecced to imp sap and needed to take a point out of imp CS to have enough.

as far as the person saying that you shouldn't rely on combos goes, that is obvious. you should never RELY on anything to land. however, if you do not know your combos and are just blindly SSing then you aren't playing your rogue to the best of it's potential. combos are what the rogue class is built on. why do you think they named them COMBO points? why do you think all of our attacks are instant and the only limiter is our energy? combos are simply how you manage your energy to get the most out of it's usage. on another note, if a rogue opens on me and doesn't have a solid combo he WILL die. a simple vanish is all it takes for me to show him/her how it's done.