Why I'm pissed about the DNC list going forward this week

[Nimmbull]

Let me just state off the bat that I love the DNC list and hate telemarketers with a whitehot passion that knows no bounds.

But watching this thing develop makes me SICK. I've watched the news the past two days and it looks like this thing is going to FLY through Congress and signed by the president in a matter of THREE DAYS.

Think about that. You know how @#%$ up that is? You know what that says about our country? You know what that says about the citizens of the United States? I'll tell you...

-A minor inconvenience that annoys us is the cause of our angst. We don't rise up and act about the sorry state of our inner cities. We don't rise up and act about the sorry state of many our our schools. We don't rise up and act about a thousand other issues....HUGE issues.... We rise up and act about a couple of annoying phone calls a month

-Our political system works. The people have spoken, and the politicians are SCRAMBLING to get in line to vote "yes" on this DNC thing. It's a shame we don't let it work on something a little more important once in awhile.

-When the people unite, political party lines disappear. There are loads of issues that 80-90% of the country agree on but don't see anything close to this kind of action on. Why? Because we've lost our passion for what's actually important in our society.

I dunno. I don't even know where this came from. But watching these headlines unfold and seeing that the President is likely to sign authority over to the FTC on FRIDAY....it just made my blood boil about the sorry state of our country when we have to find something as *relatively* insignificant as telemarketing to make us rise up. This country has gone soft. We need another civil rights revolution or something.

Nimm

[Aidden]

Bravo...

I have been watching and thinking the same damn thing..

[Jem]

"Come together, right now. Over me..."

Wraine aka "The Spine Tickler!"
Moderator O'Dethe
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[EZ_BD Nightfall]

Quote:-When the people unite, political party lines disappear. There are loads of issues that 80-90% of the country agree on but don't see anything close to this kind of action on. Why? Because we've lost our passion for what's actually important in our society.

Uhm, are you sure that it isn't "there are loads of issues that 80-90% of this country DO NOT agree on"? Please name a list of issues that the masses agree on, I'm curious to see the multitude of unanswered pleas

[Nimmbull]

Please name a list of issues that the masses agree on, I'm curious to see the multitude of unanswered pleas

First of all, they're not "unanswered pleas". That implies that someone is actually standing up and pleading for the cause- which isn't happening. But since you asked, I think we have a lot we can agree on- stuff that just isn't enough of a priority it seems, but should be:

-unqualified teachers should be identiied and removed
-inner city life and education systems need dramatic improvement
-kids that are neglected should have better lives and opportunities
-every citizen who needs quality health care should be able to obtain it
-Gas Prices should be lower
-Congressmen should have term limits

Just a couple off the top of my head. You may not agree with them, but I'd bet 80+% of Americans would agree, and that's about as close to consensus as you get in this country.

Nimm

[EZ_JookaWoo]

while 80% may agree those issues need to be better taken care of, I doubt you would come anywhere close to that number of people who would agree about how to solve those problems.

[EZ_Swipey]

JookaWoo beat me to it.

Sure bad teachers are a bad thing, but who are we going to trust with identifying them? The parents? The local school bureaucracy? The students? Or will we just be looking at how well the students do on standardized tests to determine if their teachers are "good" or "bad"?

Inner city problems are another one. Sure, most people will agree that things could use improving there, but most people won't agree on what to do to improve them, because they dont agree on WHY things are bad in the inner city.

Kids that are neglected need a better life and more oportunity? OK... but... what constitutes neglect? Even if we agree on that, how are we going to find out if a kid is being neglected, other than by having CPS workers invading the privacy of every family in the country?

Health care? Yeah, again, sounds great, but how much is it going to cost and who is going to pay for it?

Gas Prices? Seems to me that we are a capitalist society and gas stations can sell gas for whatever price they like. Unless you can prove that they are gouging you illegally, you're out of luck. Try losing the SUV and driving something fuel efficient instead (directed at America as a whole, not you in particular) Or try taking the bus, or walking, or making a mass transit system that works, rather than one that doesnt compete with cars.

Term Limits? Seems undemocratic to me. The people should be able to vote for whoever they want to.

[EZ_lenweni]

Im not sure on the history here but was the last time congress agreed like this just after pearl harbor was attacked?


If so doesn't that tell telemarketers anything?

[EZ_DreaDie]

I'm fairly sure they had a number of emergency meetings after 9/11, too, where they signed a number of bills extremely fast. Not that it makes it sound any better, but what can ya do? Anyway, thinking about it, I most definately agree with you Nimm. People just don't seem to care unless it'd show an immediate impact in their everyday life, regardless of what happens to others. It's sad, really. Edgie Newbee, Deciever, Tarew marr server
Ska Sucks!
Ska revival isn't cool, you stupid f***s!
The bands are only in it for the bucks!
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But the trend will die out with any luck!

[Nimmbull]

You're missing the big picture.

We have consensus about not wanting to be bothered at home with phone calls- yet there are the same types of disagreements about the laws constitutionality and how to implement a DNC list. Those types of disagreements about implementation will come with the solving of ANY issue- that's just common sense.

Despite all of those same types of disagreements, the DNC list flies through people have clearly spoken up against telemarketing. So where is the outrage about more important things? Nowhere.

Why? I think it's because our country as a whole has gone so completely Me Me Me that we've lost all focus on what's actually important. We get outraged about the little things that affect us personally and say aw shucks about the big things that don't.

What I'm saying is that attitude is complete @#%$.

[Kaielen]

I personally think that, in this day and age, if America rallied to bitch about the new M&M color, it would be a good thing. Anything that gets people to agree is a good thing.

[EZ_Kinare]

/irony
Quote:unqualified teachers should be identiied and removed
/irony

[Nimmbull]

But I spelled "constitutionality" right!!!

I think...

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

I have to agree with you. Its a powerful demonstration of the power that the will of the American people holds, but a damning indication of how little we actually care about anything that matters.

And as a matter of fact, I agree too that there are a large number of issues that the American public agrees on.

Probably the scariest thing for me, though , has been the courts. Our ELECTED officials responded quickly to the will of the american public, and now some NON-ELECTED judges, who the American public nevere got a chance to vote for, gets to trump that?

Out judicial branch has gotten way the @#$% out of hand. It is supposed to serve as a check against the power of the other 2 branches - NOT against the will of the public. Nothing should trump the will of the public.. but they do it so easily, with a single decision. Veda Kai'Rin

[Llabak Tharr]

Unless the will of the people is put into a constitutional amendment, the judiciary has every right to trump anything they feel violates the consitution.

Hitler was elected by a majority of the population. I'd like to think that if Bush started rounding up some ethinc group and gassing them the courts would express an opinion about that, even if it was the will of the majority. I bet if you polled people after 9/11 you probably could have gotten a majority of people saying we should issue arab/muslim citizens special ID cards, or barcode them.

I think the bigger question is why it is that Congress thinks it needs to keep passing laws that fly in the face of rights that have been guaranteed to citizens for hundreds of years.

Think about that. Every time a judge strikes down a law as unconstitutional, it means that some majority of lawmakers decided to pass a law that violates the Constitution (or can be interpreted as violating it, which I guess is a different issue, but why we have an appeals process and a Supreme Court).

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:Hitler was elected by a majority of the population. I'd like to think that if Bush started rounding up some ethinc group and gassing them the courts would express an opinion about that, even if it was the will of the majority. I bet if you polled people after 9/11 you probably could have gotten a majority of people saying we should issue arab/muslim citizens special ID cards, or barcode them.

Godwin++

You lose!

[Meddik]

Every time a judge strikes down a law as unconstitutional, it means that some majority of lawmakers decided to pass a law that violates the Constitution

Or.... Every time a judge strikes down a law as unconstitutional, it means that the courts have invented another right, by pulling stuff out of thin air "reinterpreting" the constitution.

Nimbull, the reason that your list of items haven't been ahndled, isbecause for evey one of thsioe issues, there is either A) A significant constituency opposed to it, or B) no consensus on how it should be done.

-unqualified teachers should be identiied and removed

Teachers unions will tear any politician a new one for that kind of talk.

-inner city life and education systems need dramatic improvement

Well, first off: define improvement for either of those. Ask any 5 people, and you will get 6 opinions. Widescale educational improvement would be blocked by the NEA, unless you used their definition of "improvement" (i.e. dump even more money into the botommless pit known as education, with no accountability)

As for improving inner city life? What does that mean? Better police protection? Nope, then you get one constituency shouting that its racist to have cops crack down on the crimes in one neighborhood. Spend money rebuildign the neighborhood? Whose money? Oh.. that's right, everyone else's tax money. Work with religious groups already in the community to help people out... Nope, that's violation of church and state say another group.

-kids that are neglected should have better lives and opportunities
Rule number 1: never trust any politician who mentions children. Chances are, they are about to slip something by you. Yes, eveyone loves kids, but again... define better lives? define better opportunities?

-every citizen who needs quality health care should be able to obtain it Lets rephrase that: Everybody who needs quality health care should be able to obtain it, provided by the taxpayer. That's why the whole hillarycare debacle bombed. You don't have 80% support for that. Hell, you don't even have 50% support for that, once the costs and drawbacks are seriously considered. Yeah, every parent would like their kid to ahve a pony, but not when they think about the cost of the food, the barn, and the need to shovel out the stable every day.

-Gas Prices should be lower

Yep, everbody thinks that prices should be lower on everything. But that's nto the way the market works. Heck, if the politicians really wanted to lower gas prices, they could cut taxes. In NC, its over 45 cents per gallon gas tax, and ours is relatively low compared to most states. You can't just arbitrarily set prices, unless you are willing to deal with gas shortages, when it suddenly becomes unprofitable for most people int he business to stay in the business.

-Congressmen should have term limits

Everyone thinks everyone else's congressman should have term limits. They like their own, he brings home the bacon. Not jsut pork barrel spending like other congressmen.

Yes, I realize the hypocrisy present there, but that's how most people act.For what it's worth, I don't think that term limits in congress would do nearly as much as you think they will. Trojan Horseshoes

[EZ_Urusai]

Quote: Im not sure on the history here but was the last time congress agreed like this just after pearl harbor was attacked?

If so doesn't that tell telemarketers anything?

OMG I LOVE that one!
Going have to spread that one around here. Thanks!

[Nimmbull]

Meddik:

Nimmbull, the reason that your list of items haven't been ahndled, isbecause for evey one of thsioe issues, there is either A) A significant constituency opposed to it, or B) no consensus on how it should be done.

The DNC list has A) A significant constituency against it (federal judges, the DMA) and B) no consensus on how it should be done. So why is it being handled so expediently, and with such force within Congress? It's because the people have raised their voices against telemarketing and if they don't move on it, they lose their job. That is EXACTLY how democracy is supposed to work. My problem is that in the grander scheme of things, democracy is working so well on something as relatively trivial as annoying phone calls.

-unqualified teachers should be identiied and removed



Teachers unions will tear any politician a new one for that kind of talk.

Not if the people raise their voice on the issue. If people were as outraged about bad teachers as they are about telemarketers then I guarantee you politicians will follow suit. Teacher Unions don't let them keep their job- their constituents do.

Heck, if the politicians really wanted to lower gas prices, they could cut taxes. In NC, its over 45 cents per gallon gas tax, and ours is relatively low compared to most states.

Exactly my point. If our state were to stand up and demand taxes to be lowered, the taxes would have to be lowered. If the present reps wouldn't do it then we'd elect some who WOULD.

As for the other issues I raised that you commented on- I completely concede that there is no consensus on how they should be solved- As long as you also concede that there is no real desire from our society as a whole to push these real issues to the forefront. If there was outrage, the issues would get solved.

There have been times in our country's history when there has been REAL outrage about REAL problems and things changed in a hurry. The Civil Rights Movement comes to mind. To bring your analysis up again: The Civil Rights Movement certainly had A) A significant constituency against it, and B) No consensus on how it should be done. So why did it get done? Why did the country change? How did every institution in the U.S.A. desgregate?

The answer is because that was the will of the people. When we speak up, @#%$ happens. All I'm saying is that I wish we'd speak up about something more important than telemarketing.

Nimm

[EZ_Telurinon]

Quote:B) no consensus on how it should be done

There is a consensus on how it should be done. The Do Not Call list IS that consensus.

If they were just saying "Stop Telemarketers from calling" with no concrete methodology to do so, there is no way this sort of action would be taking place.

[EZ_nekoken]

Nimmbull, any one of those issues is a firestorm waiting to happen. You won't get people to come together on those issues because the problems are ill-defined and there are many, many solutions proposed for the perceived problems.

Personally I don't think a damned thing should be done about most of the things you list. Schools may suck but I managed to get an education in spite of it. I think any enterprising student could do the same. Term limits are stupid. You want somebody out of office, vote against them. I think health care should be provided for those that can pay for it. I have no interest in helping to fund the healthcare of everyone else in America. Plenty of my money goes out the door already paying for other people's Medicare, Medicaid, L & I, and Social Security.

The do not call list legislation is going through at a rapid pace because there is a near-unanimous consensus among americans as to the nature of the problem and the solution to said problem.

[EZ_Dahne]

Quote: Our political system works.

I live in California. A couple of days ago, I made the mistake of watching part of the gubernatorial debate. Needless to say, it was very, very depressing. The sad thing is, after thousands of years of human society, this is the closest we've gotten to a system that works. The lowest of the low, those well-versed in lies and who speak only through a rock-solid barrier of @#%$. The only progress we've made is that they don't go around stabbing people as much.
Moogle Charm

Have you hugged a white mage today?

[Koru]

Quote:-A minor inconvenience that annoys us is the cause of our angst. We don't rise up and act about the sorry state of our inner cities. We don't rise up and act about the sorry state of many our our schools. We don't rise up and act about a thousand other issues....HUGE issues.... We rise up and act about a couple of annoying phone calls a month
One of the reasons being that you don't see poor inner city kids interrupting so many people's dinners. It's the 'seatback kick' effect. Y'know, when some little kid keeps kicking the back of your seat. Sure there are Somalis starving somewhere, but your immediate cause of irritation is the kid kicking your seat not the kid starving thousands of miles away. And it's taken this long to pass law against something as in your face as telemarketing. The state of schools tend to have long term effect, telemarketing is immediate. When in doubt count on Homer Simpson's "But I want it now" philosophy from most people.

[EZ_Squink McPoke]

All the problems you listed affect everyone differently or not at all. Almost everyone with a phone can relate to the annoyance that is telemarketing.

The things you listed ARE problems, but they are problems that do not have such cut and dry solutions.

I said it a while back and I will say it again though, instead of a national "Do Not Call" list there needs to instead be a national "Do Call" list and telemarketers could then only call people that opt-in. Default action should be "leave me alone". -- Formerly Squink McPoke

[EZ_Swipey]

Another thing to consider is the timing on the judge's decision that the law is "unconstitutional"...

The law has been passed for many months, why only bother to declare it "unconstitutional" a week before it is scheduled to go into effect?

Well, probably because the DMA, having found a judge who will rule their way, hemmed and hawed, and generally delayed closing their case until now, with the specific intention of delaying the implementation of the list. They KNOW there is enough support for the list out there that it WILL happen. If they manage to get a last minute judgement in place though, they can keep doing business as usual, at least until congress addresses the court ruling.

If they had closed their case several months ago, though, congress would easily have had time to address the court's concerns without delaying the implementation of the list.


It is a manipulation of our legal/governmental system by the DMA. Congress recognizes that, and is trying to thwart their plan by acting faster than usual. I mean, I can't think of anything (offhand) the DMA could do that would spur congress to act faster than this sort of contemptuous manipulation of its authority.