Ruccus
12-10-05, 06:55 PM
I figure with the discussion in the instancing thread heading towards AES that I'd just cut-and-paste some of the comments made by Sigil in the Vanguard forums so everyone has an idea what roughly what Sigil is trying to do with their AES/Encounter Route system.
Uh oh...
1) The only non-AES mobs will be "casual" solo mobs that drop AES starters.
2) Going further, there will be no "named" mobs out in the open to be contested by others, but rather spawned at the end of an AdEn.
3) Non-casual "trash" mobs will be the only things for players to kill that aren't participating in an AdEn.
If those those 3 things listed are true, I'm going to be honest; I don't like it one bit. This sounds more like Guild Wars but you can see other people fighting around you. You get a group together and start an "instance" fight. The only difference between instancing an entire dungeon and this, is that now the mobs pop when you put on a bracer, and people can see you wandering around doing this. How this is any better than instancing is beyond me. Putting on an object to make more mobs spawn is as artificial as it comes, folks.This is not the intent of the AES (man I hate buzz words!). Dungeons in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes will be populated with the style of content you expect to see in an MMO. There will be open rare mobs, mobs you kill for exp, etc.
We are not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Encounter Routes – the internal term used to describe one of these mini adventures are a layer on top of traditional population.
1) AdEns will be interactive quests; each dungeon containing a few that can be done to progress a storyline in that particular dungeon.
2) AdEn items will not be common; they are somewhat rare drops that should be seen as prizes for hunting in a dungeon for a certain amount of time. Results of AdEns are nice loot.
3) Despite the AdEns of a dungeon, there will still be plenty of mobs for everyone to go around killing and crawling through a dungeon to get to; including named mobs;
4) AdEns are to be considered special events, not the norm.Lycrist is pretty on the ball with these above points. Encounter Routes are interactive adventures that can be used to progress a storyline, or simply to create a fun play experience for a group of lucky players.
Encounter Routes are not /only/ spawned via items – we have other means of tracking a group’s action within an area. View an Encounter Route as a series of linked events or conditions which must be met in order to receive a reward.
We will have both covert and overt Encounter Routes. Covert ones may not give the players any feedback as to their progress along the adventure. Overt ones may give you feedback such as “Kill ten more Foozles” or “Return to the Throne Room”.
A very limited subset of NPCs involved in an encounter route will be “Golden” NPCs. These are the only NPCs which others may not interact with. A majority of encounter routes are planned to play upon the standard population of the dungeon as stated above.
The purpose of the “Golden” NPC is to insure that a group which has been working on an Encounter Route for several hours and finally spawns a boss mob does not have said boss mob “stolen” “ks’d” or otherwise molested by other players.
Please do not view encounter routes as dreaded “linear content”. Some portions of Encounter Routes will branch and provide options. Encounter Routes are /not/ required content.
A group will not enter a dungeon and simply say “Hey I want to do the Manticore Encounter Route”. More than likely they will travel to the dungeon in search of the Exp, and Phat l3wtz. Getting a chance to participate in the Manticore Encounter Route is simply a challenge that the party may be presented with. If they wish to pursue it and reap the rewards, they may.
Just to reiterate a few key points
Encounter Routes are not content on demand
Encounter Routes are a layer on top of traditional population
A vast majority of NPCs involved in an Encounter Route are not “Golden”
Only “Golden” NPCs are “locked” to a group
~Tagad
Im going to chime in on this one. First, very interesting information, and thanks for the feedback Tagad.
Ok, one question, if a small group happens upon one of the Encounter Route quests, are new individuals allowed to enter into this group and reap the benefits if said group finishes the quest?
Also, is it possible for a solo individual to pick up one of these encounters and maybe finish it by themselves?
If they can, that would be great, yet I cant help but wonder that there will be players who are constantly in the dungeon killing everything for a very long time (grinding) just for a chance at finding the quest. It also doesnt help when higher level players return to the lower dungeons in hopes of doing these encounters.We have quite a few ideas on how other parties could help out, or how people will leave and join groups relative to encounter routes and the 'golden mob' but want to get into beta to tune and find out which ideas work best.
Lol, I don't like golden NPCs... There's no reason behind them not being able to be attacked by other players.
If there was a reason behind it, then sure
Us players like reasons.It is simply a playability concession. We thought long and hard about this decision – and actually argued longer and harder about internally.
There is a huge difference between two groups competing for a standard spawn, and a group coming in and destroying the last hour of /your blood sweat and tears/.
Again to be clear – only a very limited number of NPCs will be golden. These will most often be the final boss type encounter NPCs.
From a lore standpoint its fairly hard to rationalize this game mechanic.
~Tagad
Im going to chime in on this one. First, very interesting information, and thanks for the feedback Tagad.
Ok, one question, if a small group happens upon one of the Encounter Route quests, are new individuals allowed to enter into this group and reap the benefits if said group finishes the quest?Certain Encounter Routes will have a minimum number of players that must meet the conditions. It will not often be a full group requirement – so yes, additional players may join in. It would certainly not be fun to find out you are on an Encounter Route that you have no way of defeating – just because the Ranger and the Cleric didn’t hit accept group yet.
Also, is it possible for a solo individual to pick up one of these encounters and maybe finish it by themselves?
If they can, that would be great, yet I cant help but wonder that there will be players who are constantly in the dungeon killing everything for a very long time (grinding) just for a chance at finding the quest. It also doesnt help when higher level players return to the lower dungeons in hopes of doing these encounters.We may create some solo and casual encounter routes – but the focus of most of the Premiere Dungeons past a certain level is typically group. That’s not to say we wont have mini dungeons with encounter routes for solo players – but creating this content does take time.
As for higher level players returning hoping to do those Encounter Routes – they will find that they are not eligible. This falls in line with Trivial Loot.
~Tagad
So, if you are in the middle of an encounter route, and you lose a player from the group, you'll have to get back to the required group number before you can continue to advance along the encounter route? Is that what you guys have been meaning by keeping the dynamic of groups breaking up and reforming inside dungeons? There are issues to be worked out still obviously. But simply for the sake of explanation (i.e. do note quote me on this or expect it to be real!): Perhaps a group of three players is the minimum number required to meet the conditions for the route – the standard content in the area expects players to have a group of six. The intent is to not trigger or allow encounter routes to happen with a solo individual in a group based area.
Are players going to be made aware of the maximum level before they reach it? It's good for replayability and alts, but people might also end up bypassing a lot of content. Or is it your intent that no can really "do it all" with one PC? The maximum level for a given encounter route will probably be in line with the level range of the dungeon or area that it is in. It should be pretty clear to players that when a dungeon is trivial to them the encounter routes it contains are also trivial.
Also please keep in mind that these encounter routes are not an entitlement. Not everyone will get to experience every one of them.
Kinda curious what that refers to as well. (the term "Premiere Dungeons")The Nusibe Necropolis is a large dungeon with lots of time spent on crafting it into being a great area (Both artistically and from a population standpoint). There are also smaller or “Mini” dungeons spread throughout the world. A small crypt, a bear cave, or even a small mine infested by kobolds are all examples of a mini dungeon.
~Tagad
I like the way this man talks. I look forward to trying this system as well as just the regular dungeons out. I have a couple of questions if any dev reads up.
1. If these items when dropped must be used for that encounter then or can they be saved and activated later?
2. I assume only one encounter of a route can be active at a time. If that is the case what happens if 2 people get the item to start the encounter wit, and roughly how many routes are there in a dungeon for these types of encounters?1. We have a variety of options here and will likely use them. If the plan is to have the item persistent (saved) we can do that, or we can have the item disappear after you trigger the encounter route. The latter will probably be more common.
2. The second group with the item that triggers the encounter route would fail to trigger the route until the first group had moved on. That said, remember that longer routes are divided into segments, so there would be an item/trigger for each segment. The idea there being that more than one group could be on the same route, but in different segments (but not on the same segment at the same time).
How many routes and segments per dungeon depends on the size of the dungeon, the level range, etc. The idea behind our larger dungeons is that they should support multiple groups that are either just adventuring or on various routes and the segments within those routes. Ultimately, while we think the encounter route system addresses what instancing tries to addresss but without the negatives, having a lot of content and huge dungeons is just as, if not more, important.
Ah, nice... so a group doing nothing but just standing around blocks a segment forever? How does one prevent that?Timers. Just like spawning mobs are on timers. You won't be able to grief other groups by stitting around doing nothing.
The above quotes were taken from this (http://www.vanguardsagaofheroes.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12814) Vanguard forum thread.
I would like to know more about this advanced encounter system. Does it mean that if you are on the same quest for example like the always popular Epic quest, you still won't ran into each other on the same mob? Having 10 people in line for some quest mob where you register for the lineup and then go afk for couple hours and come back to check your position isn't my idea of fun or immersion.
I had plenty of run-ins with group/raid fighting over the same mob, most of the time it is just sad. You'll often have friends on the otherside and you potentially would lose a friend. And more often than not, it quickly deterioates into a pissing match where people would just train each other, sometime the more extreme version where as soon as they see you or your guild tag, they would just train you. I don't know which part some here enjoy more, the causing grief part or be on the recieving end of that grief part?I do apologize, but you're not going to see a lot more on AES until we get it further implemented and tested in beta. I want to avoid focusing on aspects of it that may not work out as well as intended, nor under-emphasize aspects of it that work out well or even better than expected.
Uh oh...
1) The only non-AES mobs will be "casual" solo mobs that drop AES starters.
2) Going further, there will be no "named" mobs out in the open to be contested by others, but rather spawned at the end of an AdEn.
3) Non-casual "trash" mobs will be the only things for players to kill that aren't participating in an AdEn.
If those those 3 things listed are true, I'm going to be honest; I don't like it one bit. This sounds more like Guild Wars but you can see other people fighting around you. You get a group together and start an "instance" fight. The only difference between instancing an entire dungeon and this, is that now the mobs pop when you put on a bracer, and people can see you wandering around doing this. How this is any better than instancing is beyond me. Putting on an object to make more mobs spawn is as artificial as it comes, folks.This is not the intent of the AES (man I hate buzz words!). Dungeons in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes will be populated with the style of content you expect to see in an MMO. There will be open rare mobs, mobs you kill for exp, etc.
We are not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Encounter Routes – the internal term used to describe one of these mini adventures are a layer on top of traditional population.
1) AdEns will be interactive quests; each dungeon containing a few that can be done to progress a storyline in that particular dungeon.
2) AdEn items will not be common; they are somewhat rare drops that should be seen as prizes for hunting in a dungeon for a certain amount of time. Results of AdEns are nice loot.
3) Despite the AdEns of a dungeon, there will still be plenty of mobs for everyone to go around killing and crawling through a dungeon to get to; including named mobs;
4) AdEns are to be considered special events, not the norm.Lycrist is pretty on the ball with these above points. Encounter Routes are interactive adventures that can be used to progress a storyline, or simply to create a fun play experience for a group of lucky players.
Encounter Routes are not /only/ spawned via items – we have other means of tracking a group’s action within an area. View an Encounter Route as a series of linked events or conditions which must be met in order to receive a reward.
We will have both covert and overt Encounter Routes. Covert ones may not give the players any feedback as to their progress along the adventure. Overt ones may give you feedback such as “Kill ten more Foozles” or “Return to the Throne Room”.
A very limited subset of NPCs involved in an encounter route will be “Golden” NPCs. These are the only NPCs which others may not interact with. A majority of encounter routes are planned to play upon the standard population of the dungeon as stated above.
The purpose of the “Golden” NPC is to insure that a group which has been working on an Encounter Route for several hours and finally spawns a boss mob does not have said boss mob “stolen” “ks’d” or otherwise molested by other players.
Please do not view encounter routes as dreaded “linear content”. Some portions of Encounter Routes will branch and provide options. Encounter Routes are /not/ required content.
A group will not enter a dungeon and simply say “Hey I want to do the Manticore Encounter Route”. More than likely they will travel to the dungeon in search of the Exp, and Phat l3wtz. Getting a chance to participate in the Manticore Encounter Route is simply a challenge that the party may be presented with. If they wish to pursue it and reap the rewards, they may.
Just to reiterate a few key points
Encounter Routes are not content on demand
Encounter Routes are a layer on top of traditional population
A vast majority of NPCs involved in an Encounter Route are not “Golden”
Only “Golden” NPCs are “locked” to a group
~Tagad
Im going to chime in on this one. First, very interesting information, and thanks for the feedback Tagad.
Ok, one question, if a small group happens upon one of the Encounter Route quests, are new individuals allowed to enter into this group and reap the benefits if said group finishes the quest?
Also, is it possible for a solo individual to pick up one of these encounters and maybe finish it by themselves?
If they can, that would be great, yet I cant help but wonder that there will be players who are constantly in the dungeon killing everything for a very long time (grinding) just for a chance at finding the quest. It also doesnt help when higher level players return to the lower dungeons in hopes of doing these encounters.We have quite a few ideas on how other parties could help out, or how people will leave and join groups relative to encounter routes and the 'golden mob' but want to get into beta to tune and find out which ideas work best.
Lol, I don't like golden NPCs... There's no reason behind them not being able to be attacked by other players.
If there was a reason behind it, then sure
Us players like reasons.It is simply a playability concession. We thought long and hard about this decision – and actually argued longer and harder about internally.
There is a huge difference between two groups competing for a standard spawn, and a group coming in and destroying the last hour of /your blood sweat and tears/.
Again to be clear – only a very limited number of NPCs will be golden. These will most often be the final boss type encounter NPCs.
From a lore standpoint its fairly hard to rationalize this game mechanic.
~Tagad
Im going to chime in on this one. First, very interesting information, and thanks for the feedback Tagad.
Ok, one question, if a small group happens upon one of the Encounter Route quests, are new individuals allowed to enter into this group and reap the benefits if said group finishes the quest?Certain Encounter Routes will have a minimum number of players that must meet the conditions. It will not often be a full group requirement – so yes, additional players may join in. It would certainly not be fun to find out you are on an Encounter Route that you have no way of defeating – just because the Ranger and the Cleric didn’t hit accept group yet.
Also, is it possible for a solo individual to pick up one of these encounters and maybe finish it by themselves?
If they can, that would be great, yet I cant help but wonder that there will be players who are constantly in the dungeon killing everything for a very long time (grinding) just for a chance at finding the quest. It also doesnt help when higher level players return to the lower dungeons in hopes of doing these encounters.We may create some solo and casual encounter routes – but the focus of most of the Premiere Dungeons past a certain level is typically group. That’s not to say we wont have mini dungeons with encounter routes for solo players – but creating this content does take time.
As for higher level players returning hoping to do those Encounter Routes – they will find that they are not eligible. This falls in line with Trivial Loot.
~Tagad
So, if you are in the middle of an encounter route, and you lose a player from the group, you'll have to get back to the required group number before you can continue to advance along the encounter route? Is that what you guys have been meaning by keeping the dynamic of groups breaking up and reforming inside dungeons? There are issues to be worked out still obviously. But simply for the sake of explanation (i.e. do note quote me on this or expect it to be real!): Perhaps a group of three players is the minimum number required to meet the conditions for the route – the standard content in the area expects players to have a group of six. The intent is to not trigger or allow encounter routes to happen with a solo individual in a group based area.
Are players going to be made aware of the maximum level before they reach it? It's good for replayability and alts, but people might also end up bypassing a lot of content. Or is it your intent that no can really "do it all" with one PC? The maximum level for a given encounter route will probably be in line with the level range of the dungeon or area that it is in. It should be pretty clear to players that when a dungeon is trivial to them the encounter routes it contains are also trivial.
Also please keep in mind that these encounter routes are not an entitlement. Not everyone will get to experience every one of them.
Kinda curious what that refers to as well. (the term "Premiere Dungeons")The Nusibe Necropolis is a large dungeon with lots of time spent on crafting it into being a great area (Both artistically and from a population standpoint). There are also smaller or “Mini” dungeons spread throughout the world. A small crypt, a bear cave, or even a small mine infested by kobolds are all examples of a mini dungeon.
~Tagad
I like the way this man talks. I look forward to trying this system as well as just the regular dungeons out. I have a couple of questions if any dev reads up.
1. If these items when dropped must be used for that encounter then or can they be saved and activated later?
2. I assume only one encounter of a route can be active at a time. If that is the case what happens if 2 people get the item to start the encounter wit, and roughly how many routes are there in a dungeon for these types of encounters?1. We have a variety of options here and will likely use them. If the plan is to have the item persistent (saved) we can do that, or we can have the item disappear after you trigger the encounter route. The latter will probably be more common.
2. The second group with the item that triggers the encounter route would fail to trigger the route until the first group had moved on. That said, remember that longer routes are divided into segments, so there would be an item/trigger for each segment. The idea there being that more than one group could be on the same route, but in different segments (but not on the same segment at the same time).
How many routes and segments per dungeon depends on the size of the dungeon, the level range, etc. The idea behind our larger dungeons is that they should support multiple groups that are either just adventuring or on various routes and the segments within those routes. Ultimately, while we think the encounter route system addresses what instancing tries to addresss but without the negatives, having a lot of content and huge dungeons is just as, if not more, important.
Ah, nice... so a group doing nothing but just standing around blocks a segment forever? How does one prevent that?Timers. Just like spawning mobs are on timers. You won't be able to grief other groups by stitting around doing nothing.
The above quotes were taken from this (http://www.vanguardsagaofheroes.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12814) Vanguard forum thread.
I would like to know more about this advanced encounter system. Does it mean that if you are on the same quest for example like the always popular Epic quest, you still won't ran into each other on the same mob? Having 10 people in line for some quest mob where you register for the lineup and then go afk for couple hours and come back to check your position isn't my idea of fun or immersion.
I had plenty of run-ins with group/raid fighting over the same mob, most of the time it is just sad. You'll often have friends on the otherside and you potentially would lose a friend. And more often than not, it quickly deterioates into a pissing match where people would just train each other, sometime the more extreme version where as soon as they see you or your guild tag, they would just train you. I don't know which part some here enjoy more, the causing grief part or be on the recieving end of that grief part?I do apologize, but you're not going to see a lot more on AES until we get it further implemented and tested in beta. I want to avoid focusing on aspects of it that may not work out as well as intended, nor under-emphasize aspects of it that work out well or even better than expected.