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Darkefang
12-14-05, 02:39 PM
According to this Fortune article, the way anime producers run their business might be a model to help out the rest of the entertainment industry out of its doldrums. I don't really have much to add to this, I just thought some of the anime fans here would be interested in this.

It's... Profitmón!
Daniel Roth. Fortune. New York: Dec 12, 2005.Vol.152, Iss. 12; pg. 100, 6 pgs

From Pokémon to Full Metal Panic, the anime industry is doing everything the rest of show biz isn't: embracing technology, coddling fans-and making a killing. BY DANIEL ROTH

It WBS 2 A.M. when John Ledford heard the banging at his door. Stumbling from bed on that night in the fall of 1999, he threw on a robe over his boxers and opened the door of his Houston apartment to a twentysomething guy with glasses and a face full of freckles. Ledford was about to tell him he had the wrong apartment when the stranger launched into a speech. At that moment, Ledford knew: This visit was no accident. This stranger was an otaku.

Translated literally, the word is Japanese for "your household." But for obscure reasons, otaku morphed in modern Japan to connote a scarily hard-core fan, a nerd obsessed with a hobby to the point of unhealthiness. In the U.S. the otaku's infatuation is focused on anime-the Japanese style of animation that typically features saucer-eyed women and giant mechanical men. American otaku wear the label with pride.

The specimen at Ledford's door was going on about an anime TV show called Neon Genesis Evangelion, a series about humans fighting an alien invasion. He had a problem with the ending. "I don't like the direction you went in and I want you to go back and fix it," he demanded. Ledford explained that he didn't make the show and closed the door. He was rattled by the nocturnal visit-later that morning, leaving for Japan, he called his assistant and told her to find him a new place to live. But he should have known: That's what happens when your customers are wild with desire.

Ledford is CEO of AD Vision, the largest importer and distributor of anime in the country. ADV may not have made Evangelion, but it did get the show into the hands of American otaku. "The hard-core fan base is very rabid," says Ledford. "They will get behind you as a company. You don't have to spend a dollar in marketing; you just have to be friends with them." (With the understanding that any true friendship needs limits-and visiting hours.)

There must be a few studio heads out there who would accept 2 A.M. chats with customers in exchange for a rosier state of business. The numbers in mainstream entertainment are bad: Hollywood boxoffice receipts are down 7% over last year's middling performance. Home video, which in the past couple of years accounted for about a quarter of the profits on average at the major studios, is losing its shine too. Goldman Sachs forecasts virtually no growth in DVD sales for the major studios in 2006 and an outright decline in sales the year after that. In TV land, prime viewers are fleeing prime time: The networks have seen a 7.4% drop in viewings by 18- to 49-year-olds so far this fall compared with last year. There are plenty of reasons for these declines-fickle tastes, videogames, piracy. But there's also the fact that, frankly, the entertainment industry tends not to show the fans much love. Any business that prices popcorn the way gas stations price gas, encodes software into its CDs that compromises computer security, or persists in building sitcoms around Jim Belushi needs work in staying close to customers.

Yet with anime and its print cousin-the paperback-sized cartoon books called manea-the otaku keep showing up, cash in hand. This tidy little corner of the show-biz universe-a market worth more than $625 million last year at retail in North America, of which AD Vision captured $150 million-makes for a rare example of an entertainment niche that does more than not alienate its customers: It has found ways to keep them buying and buying.

In the process, anime and manga firms have taken on forms very different from Hollywood studios or publishing houses. They more closely resemble the constantly updating startups of Silicon Valley. Their ethos is to get the product out to the right people-whether it's on a DVD or over a mobile phone or downloadable-and see what happens. If it succeeds, milk it; if not, try something different. And if the fans are into file sharing (which they are), keep the lawyers leashed and find a way to make piracy work for you. "Companies in this space live and die by their ability not only to produce quality product but to retain street cred with the audience," says Mike Kiley, editor-in-chief and co-founder of Tokyopop, which dominates manga in the U.S. "We're always adopting new technology, and we get in front of 250,000 to a half-million fans at trade shows every year all over the country. It's retail politics. It's working the crowd." In Baltimore last summer, some 22,000 anime fans-many dressed up as their favorite characters-paid up to $55 each to attend the Otakon anime convention. By the second day of the three-day event, Baltimore's convention center had sold out and the scalpers started offering up tickets. Another 33,000 showed up at the Anime Expo in Anaheim.

True, it's a rather, shall we say, "elite" subset of fans who'll dress up in public as the miniskirted title character from Sailor Moon, but anime really has gone mainstream. The Cartoon Network's Adult Swim-a late-night block of adultoriented cartoons that lean heavily on anime shows-has managed for the majority of the year to be the top cable draw for 18- to 24-year-olds. What draws them in? These cartoons all have a soap opera appeal: Plots build over the course of an unusually long season (typically 52 episodes, vs. 13 or so for traditional U.S. shows), as characters die, fall in love, do dumb things. Even Pokémon, the gateway anime of today's otaku, built from episode to episode, drawing in fans. On the manga side, sales have more than doubled since 2002, to $125 million in 2004, according to pop-culture market analysts ICv2; whole aisles of Borders and Barnes & Noble are now devoted to the graphic novels. Even women are starting to get into the once male-dominated action. Female fans now make up about half the attendees at the conferences. Responding to the interest, CosmoGirl last summer began running its own manga strip on the back page of every issue. "We started hearing girls say their favorite books and favorite things to read were manga," says Ann Shoket, the magazine's executive editor. "The girls have drawn their own manga for us. Not just one weird girl-a lot of girls."

AD Vision is based in a rundown retail center in Houston. There is no sign, only a tinted-window door that opens up into a chaotic rat's maze of a workplace: Executive offices lead to cubicles for producers; twisting hallways shoot off into recording studios; shrinkwrapped DVDs seem to fill every corner. Salesman Chris Oarr points out where a hallway used to lead into the offices of Newtype magazine-ADVs anime and manga monthly that, at $13 an issue, outsells every other film and entertainment magazine at Waldenbooks-until one day a wall just showed up. (He's not sure who built it.)

In fact, ADVs whole business model has a bolted-together, interchangeable vibe, a result of the company's willingness to take on what works and jettison what doesn't. The philosophy has been in place from its earliest days. Ledford, a college dropout, started Gametronix, the predecessor to ADV, in 1991, importing Japanese videogames and hawking them out of a small storefront in Houston. The following year he bought the rights to the movie version of the videogame hit Devil Hunter Yohko. The Japanese company that owned the show, Toho, which also manages the career of a veteran star named Godzilla, expressed surprise that any American would be interested in a show about a 16-year-old Japanese girl who fights an army of demons trying to kill her family and take her virginity (which would somehow stop her demon-slaying skills). Ledford spent around $55,000 licensing the work and producing it for the U.S., hiring a local anime fan named Matt Greenfield-who would become ADVs co-founder-to subtitle it. Ledford made his money back in 90 days and never looked back at videogames: "I said, 'Hey, that's pretty good, let's try it again.' " Since then, ADV has been a voracious buyer, releasing more than 700 anime series on DVD. Those hungering for giant robots can watch Robotech; fans of teen female assassins (and come on, who isn't?) can turn to Madlax. According to the DVD Release Report newsletter, ADVs output is more than the combined DVD distribution of the top two American TV show distributors, Warner Bros, and Paramount.

Anyone can build up a huge library. It's what ADV does with it that's interesting. Ledford aims his shows at small groups, knowing that if he can keep costs down-licensing properties on the cheap, basing his operation in low-cost Houston, using non-union actors to do voice-overs in his own studio-he does not need boffo box office to make money. (His average per-title margin: 25%.) As long as the otaku are nice and frenzied, the formula works. So Ledford makes sure voice actors and execs in his companies make a big presence at the fan shows. He's also adept at creating useful controversies: When ADV thought a Scooby Doo-esque series called Ghost Stones would be a dud, it issued a version with an intentionally inaccurate translation of the script-redubbing the characters to be more American (the leader now has attitude, and the boring sidekick was made into a born-again Christian)-knowing that would stir powerful passions. Authenticity being the Way of the Otaku, fans obliged by erupting in a furor. Then they ran out to buy the DVDs to assess the damage. Some found they actually liked the show and turned Ghost Stories into a mini hit for ADV. That's just what Ledford's looking for. "Our company is built around base hits," he says.

We're Sitting in a conference room and Ledford, just back from Tokyo, where he spends half the year, is chugging lime Diet Cokes. His Japanese business partners have nicknamed him "Hamtaro," after the hamster star of a kids' anime series, presumably because he's pudgy and frenetic. He's 37, stands 6-foot-3, and on this occasion is letting his beefy hands pound the table to make points about his company's performance. ADV now gets about 90% of its $50 million in wholesale revenues from DVD sales, yet Ledford is determined to deliver content via whatever medium the fans want. "That's video-on-demand, that's mobile, that's going to our website and being able to buy an episode from us for four bucks. Instead of a DVD costing you 30 bucks, we'll sell you an episode. You can access our entire 500-terabyte library." The company's video-on-demand service, the Anime Network, is available in 28 million homes and ranks as one of Corncast's most popular on-demand channels, after music and premium stations like HBO On Demand. Internet and mobile services are the next step, though both are still in the planning stages. The day that Apple unveiled the video iPod, Oarrwas on the phone with the company, trying to figure out how to get ADVs library onto the iTunes Music Store.

Other entertainment companies, of course, are embracing the new platforms: Disney had a few ABC shows ready for sale on the video iPod at its launch. And in early November both CBS and NBC announced that they'll be offering a limited set of shows on-demand over cable and satellite.

But as the majors take their first tentative steps, Ledford and his peers keep racing along. The most dramatic example of this attitude is their tolerance for folks who have the potential to put them out of business: pirates trading anime online. And not just trading, but competing to see who can create the best subtitled version of a particular show.

This is open-source TV programming. "Fansubbers," as they're called, can spend more than a dozen hours collectively just to get a half-hour show ready for English speakers. The process is as orderly as an ant farm, with each fansubber having a specialized task. TV watchers in Japan start the process by recording an anime show and uploading it to the Net, typically a few hours after it airs. Bilingual fans around the world download the show and start writing out translations in text documents, which they post online or e-mail around. The first drafts have all kinds of mistakeswords are translated too literally or just wrong-and other translators make refinements. At this stage, self-appointed editors ask questions and make changes, then fan typesetters plug in the subtities as well as the translations for words that pop up on signs or characters' Tshirts. Finally someone somewhere encodes the completed version-and here there's competition to see who can encode it with the fewest glitches and the best filters-and runs it through BitTorrent, a piece of software that allows large files to be downloaded quickly. Typically the fansubbers organize themselves in teams to make the process move more smoothly. All this is done for free.

If this were being done in any other industry-imagine Chinese Pontiac fans getting together to strip and build their own versions of General Motors carsthe lawsuits would be piling up. Not here. Part of the reason is that the fansubbers police themselves with a zero-tolerance policy that would impress Eliot Spitzer. The first rule of fansub club: Don't trade fansubs once a U.S. company licenses a show. So when ADV announces a new acquisition, Gerard Krijgsman, the founder ofAnimeSuki.com-the largest database of BitTorrent anime shows-immediately yanks the show from his site based in the Netherlands.

The fansubbers themselves also scour the Net to make sure that despite all their hours spent translating, no copies of their work remain. "If you really like the show, you should go out to buy the DVD," says the fansubber who goes by the online handle Quarkboy. In real life, Quarkboy is Sam Pinansky, a 25-year-old physics Ph.D. student at University California at Santa Barbara who's researching string theory. Pinansky doesn't mind the ephemeral nature of what he does. All he cares about is making sure there's plenty of anime out there for him. "If you do buy the DVD, more shows like it will be licensed in the future. Our whole goal from the beginning was to get more people to like anime."

Fansubbers also act as free focus groups for the U.S. anime distributors. The more people rally to translate a show on the Internet, the more likely it is to do well as a commercial product. In September, when Cartoon Network launched the widely fansubbed Naruto, about a tween ninja, it instantly rocketed to the top of the network's ratings. Executives tip their hats to the otaku: "With anime, almost more than any other medium except maybe music, the hard-core fans drive everyone else's interest," says Jason DeMarco, a creative director for Cartoon Network. "If the fans are putting out a bunch of Naruto fansubs and talking about the show, even the casual fans are going to say, 'What's this Naruto that all these crazy guys are talking about?' Eventually it's going to filter to us because they really are a quality indicator."

The flip side is also true: The fans can help wreck a show if they don't like what they're seeing. With that in mind, Ledford makes a point of keeping his fans in the loop. Since 2003 he's been shopping the idea of making a live-action version of Neon Genesis Evangelion, the same show that spurred Ledford's stalker-it is to otaku what Star Trek is to Trekkies. Ledford signed on the Weta Companies, the New Zealand special-effects firm behind the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the new King Kong, to come up with plans for what the Evangelion world might look like. But instead of micromanaging the project, Ledford had Weta answer to two Evangelion fanatics at his company.

Richard Taylor, Weta's co-founder, says he's never experienced anything quite like it. Twice a week he'd have a conference call with the fans at ADV, sending them renderings of his designs for things like the 100-foot-tall robots and getting in return their encyclopedic take on the interpretations. "These are people who could be considered scholars on the world of Evangelion," says Taylor. "We had to appease them and find their approval." That wasn't the only odd thing: Once the Weta-ADV partnership hit the news, the company's in-box started overflowing. "We get a lot of e-mails, a lot of letters from people around the world about Lord of the Rings. But we get 25 e-mails about Evangelion to every one we get about Lord of the Rings" says Taylor. "And Evangelion has not even been made yet: It's just a whisper in the corridors of ADV, and it's a suggestion in the hallways of Weta."

Last July, Taylor flew to San Diego to attend Comic-Con, the once dorky gathering of comic and sci-fi fans. The convention now pulls in more than 100,000 attendees. Taylor took a proposed producer of the Evangelion film out to lunch to see if he couldn't jumpstart production, now that the project has raised about half of the $100 million to $120 million Ledford estimates he needs to make this movie right. Before they could sit down, a fan recognized Taylor and asked him not about anything he's actually done, but about Evangelion. Taylor turned to the producer and said, "This is why we have to do this movie."

Some in Hollywood are starting to catch on-if not to the idea of embracing the latest technology (or piracy), then at least to paying attention to the fans. The wave of comic-book movies over the past few years is one indication; another is the increasing presence of producers at fan shows like Comic-Con. Hollywood vet Don Murphy, who produced Natural Born Killers and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, is a regular. He's producing a live-action movie based on the 1980s anime show Transformers, which featured warring robots, each of which could turn into, say, a truck or a jet (or, in the least intimidating transformation ever, an AM/FM cassette deck). There are big names behind the flick: Michael Bay is directing, and Steven Spielberg has signed on as executive producer. Yet Murphy is hitting the fan shows to drum up support and has even been soliciting ideas on his website from Transformers aficionados: "I'm trying really hard with my message boards, which get thousands of hits a day, to appeal to the Transformers fan base: 'Is there a consensus? Is there anything you people want?' " The movie doesn't come out until July 2007, but he wants the fans to be behind him from the start.

None of this means that Western culture is going allanime. Ledford acknowledges that interest seems to bubble up, then fall back a bit before growing again. Certainly the aging of the Pokémon generation-the first to have widespread exposure to anime at a young ageshould help. Still, Ledford figures that if he can just keep up with the fans, the industry will take care of itself-and the fans will take care of ADV. "Everybody here in some capacity loves anime very passionately, or they love manga," says Ledford. "We've got businesspeople here who could care less-every company does-but you go to some of these big, mega-conglomerate media companies, and they go, Oh, anime is making lots of money.' But then they get into it and they don't do it right because they're not connected to the fans."

As connected as he is, one word of advice to fans looking for some earlymorning face time with Ledford: He now lives in a big house in a gated community. With an excellent alarm system. And a gun.

Lenilya
12-14-05, 03:13 PM
Wow, good read.

Too bad the cheap in-house voice talent is never very good. Ah well, at least they have a reason.

shehab aldean
12-14-05, 05:03 PM
i remmber i read this article someplace else

saddly other show biz people don't think out of the box
the japanse think outside the box and anime went from freak thing into mainstream

FarSky
12-14-05, 05:18 PM
Is Anime the future of the entertainment industry?
God, I hope not.

deuce
12-14-05, 06:31 PM
I think you read that wrong.

Talius
12-14-05, 10:58 PM
God, I hope not.

I'm going to have to go ahead and add an amen

Darkefang
12-14-05, 11:10 PM
God, I hope not.
LOL

deuce
12-15-05, 12:23 AM
I read this on my blackberry so maybe I got a different story. But it was saying how the business model used by an animie distributer in the u.s. here was succesful. By supporting new technologys and interacting with customers and by not shoving lawyers of doom at there customers.

We shouldnt be doing that?

Lenilya
12-15-05, 12:49 AM
God, I hope not.

I swear, next to politics, anime is the biggest thing that people react to without any knowledge of what's being said.

Kraun
12-15-05, 12:54 AM
Full Metal Panic?

Ruccus
12-15-05, 01:23 AM
It's "Full Metal Panic! (http://www.full-metal-panic.com/intelligence/intelligence.php)", with an exclamation mark. I own the thinpack of the series; it's excellent. Funny at times, serious at times; it's an all around solid show.

And yes, I read the story as essentially "respect your customers and they'll respect you back", not "live action is dead, long live anime!".

Diveel
12-15-05, 02:31 AM
i think a lot of people who trash anime immediately think of pokemon or yugio, or wharever other garbage their kids watch. not the best representatives~

Dragynphyre
12-15-05, 06:27 AM
i think a lot of people who trash anime immediately think of pokemon or yugio, or wharever other garbage their kids watch. not the best representatives~

Well, that stuff is admittedly real trash, anime or not.

I've also watched what is supposedly 'good' anime, and while it's not so horrible, I guess that I'm just not a fan of the genre.

Xantium
12-15-05, 07:18 AM
You fools need to lay off the yu-gi or many boots will be applied to many asses. That Jaeden cracks me up everytime. And how can you not love the totally liscious Chumley?

Sollon Darkmoon
12-15-05, 07:43 AM
I swear, next to politics, anime is the biggest thing that people react to without any knowledge of what's being said.

/agree

You fools need to lay off the yu-gi or many boots will be applied to many asses. That Jaeden cracks me up everytime. And how can you not love the totally liscious Chumley?

That is yu-gi GX not the original series :P.

Fydel
12-15-05, 07:49 AM
God, I hope not.

I mean, granted I've seen some really stupid anime flicks, I've seen some very good ones too.

But really the same could be said for Hollywood.. but moreso the former.

Meddik
12-15-05, 08:12 AM
I've also watched what is supposedly 'good' anime, and while it's not so horrible, I guess that I'm just not a fan of the genre.

Ditto.

Stalk
12-15-05, 11:57 AM
Not to nitpick, but anime isn't a genre. Its just like tv, movies, etc. Anyway, good article. This is why I buy japanese dvds - they cater to me. Extras on dvd, beautuful boxes (check out the gankutsuou box and tell me its not beautiful), addons like figures, posters, shirts, etc... What's not to love?

I laugh, honestly, when you guys go nuts over lotr extended ed sets, sin city with extras, etc. I get that all the time with anime dvds. Its the norm, not the exception.

My howl's moving castle dvd came with a piece of film, along with craploads of extras. Its always amazing, to say the least.

I think the entertainment industry will benefit from this a lot.

Lisboa
12-15-05, 12:07 PM
Anime's not mainstream in Japan. It just has a bigger fan base. Otaku are made fun of as regularly as LARPers are made fun of in the US. Miyazaki's anime is considered a different breed from the kind otaku like.

Stalk
12-15-05, 12:49 PM
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Libosa. The fact its not mainstream (duh? Of course) has to do with the topic, what? And how otaku are treated has what to do with the topic? I don't see anyone saying otherwise.

Lisboa
12-15-05, 12:55 PM
i remmber i read this article someplace else

saddly other show biz people don't think out of the box
the japanse think outside the box and anime went from freak thing into mainstream

It's shebab who said it went into mainstream. And I said it didn't go into mainstream in Japan.

Stalk
12-15-05, 01:08 PM
Ah, missed that. I'm talking randomly here, but how do you define it being mainstream? Not all tv shows are mainstream. Is being on tv mainstream? Or is it popularity? Because one piece, naruto, bleach, and many other shows before it are mainstream. Plenty of movies are too, even disregarding ghibli. How much more does it need to be to be considered mainstream? Many shows air prime time, but more air late night. Isn't that the same with any tv show or movie?

Or is there some definition that I am missing that defines something as mainstream? With the ratings one piece gets, I think its hard to call it not mainstream since otaku would make up the minority of who watch it.

Estebar
12-15-05, 01:23 PM
I think the article is a bit misguided.

It covers what goes on in the anime industry nowdays, but make allusions to this being the future of entertainment. This is basically the same as trying to find out whether to release any old TV shows on DVD. You look around to figure out what your market is, then decide if it's worth the effort. And they still don't get it right all the time.

This isn't a good model to compare with funding a movie 2 years in advance, then having to make it.

Lenilya
12-15-05, 02:12 PM
Estebar, you miss a big point: Anime distribution companies don't sue everyone that has ever THOUGHT of looking at a Fansub, and generally take feedback pretty well.

As opposed to Hollywood, the RIAA, ect.

notwen
12-15-05, 04:27 PM
I'm a little confused by the claims that it's not mainstream even in Japan. It is quite mainstream. It's pretty mainstream HERE even...

Granted, the obsessive fans, while there is a huge number of them, are not the mainstream, but some of the most watched movies and longest running TV shows are anime. Anime merchandising is a huge part of japanese economy. High profile voice actors are practicly household names and anime sound track CDs are huge sellers. Why would you not consider it mainstream?

Lisboa
12-15-05, 04:51 PM
No, I dispute it is mainstream in Japan. Mainstream means a majority of people accept it as adult entertainment. I argue that despite our popular perception of Japan, the anime fan is also considered a nerd in Japan. There may be more nerds in Japan, but it doesn't mean they are the cool kids, or that they get girls (the telltale sign of a cool guy). An example would be a recent drama series that ran, called "Train man" about how an otaku charms an attractive girl. It really makes fun of otaku, and shows what popular perception of anime fans, really is.

Lenilya
12-15-05, 04:59 PM
they based a series on an anime fan.

Sounds mainstream to me!

Stalk
12-15-05, 05:15 PM
No, I dispute it is mainstream in Japan. Mainstream means a majority of people accept it as adult entertainment. I argue that despite our popular perception of Japan, the anime fan is also considered a nerd in Japan. There may be more nerds in Japan, but it doesn't mean they are the cool kids, or that they get girls (the telltale sign of a cool guy). An example would be a recent drama series that ran, called "Train man" about how an otaku charms an attractive girl. It really makes fun of otaku, and shows what popular perception of anime fans, really is.

The problem here is, Anime is not "adult entertainment." It is entertainment for all ages. Naruto, for instance, is aimed at young children, and it is impossible to deny it is mainstream.

Mainstream doesn't mean "cool", either. Yeah, Densha Otoko made fun of Otaku. But anime is, as Len implied, big enough that there was a (smash hit, I might add) drama based on an anime fan.

I really don't know how much more mainstream it can be than that. Certain shows, like Rozen Maiden, Ichigo Mashimaro, and the like may not be mainstream, but Naruto is as well known as the Simpsons here, so is Prince of Tennis, etc. Ask someone what Shounen Weekly is, and everyone will know what it is (from their childhood, most often, and every child will know what it is)

In terms of income, it is one of the largest markets in Japan. The "moe~" market alone is worth in the billions. That doesn't even include the shounen market, I'd be scared to hear any numbers from that.

Futari wa Pretty Cure is a smash hit in Japan among young girls, and apprently, older males (though the vast minority). Everyone knows Doraemon.

I can't see it being not mainstream, unless you're defining it by "cool". But all the "cool" kids know Bleach. So....

Lisboa
12-15-05, 05:30 PM
I go by what my native Japanese wife and her family tell me. I was shocked as hell when I discovered this, because I thought Japan was that one place where everything was acceptable.

They think Akihabara is a weird place because of shameless, semi-pornographic anime posters that are prominently displayed, and think the otaku who think the girls alluring are gross. At the same time, Astroboy, Doraemon, and Miyazaki are in the mainstream, because they don't cross the line into hardcore anime. My impression is there is some sort of line that separates the mainstream from the otaku anime.

Anime that attempts to be realistic and not meant for kids, otaku anime. Here I'd throw in anime which thinks its depiction of school girls is realistic, when it is not. Anime that is primarily for kids or "traditional" in some Disney-sense, mainstream.

Stalk
12-15-05, 05:41 PM
I go by what my native Japanese wife and her family tell me. I was shocked as hell when I discovered this, because I thought Japan was that one place where everything was acceptable.

They think Akihabara is a weird place because of shameless, semi-pornographic anime posters that are prominently displayed, and think the otaku who think the girls alluring are gross. At the same time, Astroboy, Doraemon, and Miyazaki are in the mainstream, because they don't cross the line into hardcore anime. My impression is there is some sort of line that separates the mainstream from the otaku anime.

Anime that attempts to be realistic and not meant for kids, otaku anime. Here I'd throw in anime which thinks its depiction of school girls is realistic, when it is not. Anime that is primarily for kids or "traditional" in some Disney-sense, mainstream.

I wasn't trying to imply that the otaku anime was mainstream. The things I mentioned earlier, Ichigo Mashimaro and Rozen Maiden, are as Otaku anime as it can possibly get.

I was debating that the saying, "Anime is not Mainstream" may be incorrect. And we seem to be in agreement. I was only arguing the popular shows, like the aforementioned titles (Ghibli, Doraemon, Shounen, Mahou Shoujo, etc) being mainstream. But the more otaku shows, are not.

I'm well aware of Japanese perception of Akihabara, and Otaku, and where it comes from (the child rape/murder cases that happened little more than a decade ago) and that it's considered gross by the majority. There is a line through anime as to what's acceptable and not.

It just seemed to me as if you were saying, anime in general is not mainstream. That sounded to me almost like, TV shows are not mainstream. There are geek TV shows like, I guess, G4 TV, Late Night shows, and many other genres. But it being Mainstram is undeniable. I felt Anime is the same way, with the more obscure things (the stuff Otaku watch, basically) being the ones that are not mainstream.

EDIT: And Japan being the one place where everything was acceptable? Whoa, that's pretty extreme. I like to say, assume NOTHING is acceptable in Japan, and go from there :p It's a interesting country, but I'd hate to live there personally.

DarthEnder
12-15-05, 08:07 PM
I'm going to have to go ahead and add an amen

Totally, cause the things being created for american television are so much better.


Also, I think Lisboa's wife's family lives in the japanese equivalent of amish country.

Mainstream doesn't mean "cool", either. Yeah, Densha Otoko made fun of Otaku. But anime is, as Len implied, big enough that there was a (smash hit, I might add) drama based on an anime fan.

I really don't know how much more mainstream it can be than that.

Er...I don't think thats exactly true. I mean, if someone decided to make a show about a D&D nerd I don't think that would magically make D&D mainstream.

Wait, I think they did that already on Buffy.

notwen
12-15-05, 09:35 PM
Yeah I think Lisboa is drawing a lot of lines to constrain the term mainstream to fit the statement made. I know alot of people who think adult video gamers are weirdos and Star Trek is only for loser geeks obssessed over minutia in every episode. But you'd have to be a complete shut in to think neither are mainstream entertainment.

Anime is like all media... there are segments of it that are made for and appeal only to a small niche. That is not to say, however, that the medium itself is not mainstream.

And to be honest the statement about "miyazaki's anime" being considered a "different breed from the kind otaku like" isn't really fair either since it implies Otaku have no interest in Miyazaki. Otaku interests aren't exclusive to the more mature anime shown later at night. Certainly there are those shows that appeal almost entirely to otaku, but that's a different matter and goes back to my comments above.

And Stalkyr is so dead on about things being "acceptable" in Japan. Foreigners hear about vending machines selling used panties and the like and make some extreme assumptions about radical things simply being "acceptable" in Japan and really miss the mark.

Stalk
12-16-05, 06:09 AM
Er...I don't think thats exactly true. I mean, if someone decided to make a show about a D&D nerd I don't think that would magically make D&D mainstream.

Wait, I think they did that already on Buffy.

Well, I don't mean that by itself makes it mainstream. I mean, supported by all the other things, that is also evidence of it being mainstream.

Also, even in Tokyo, the general feelings of the people about Otaku are similar to what Libosa's wife feels.