View Full Version : The Rogue and PvP: Analysis & Feedback
Originally posted by Vis (http://thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27754&page=2) Copied here to generate rogue PvP discussion. ~Nocte
Some feedback - Please Dikamin pass on our PVP concerns too. We're just as broke there as well :beatup
- Need a way to close to melee range or keep someone in melee range. Same old melee vs caster problem. Root and nuke.
- Stealth needs faster movement to have any use, ignoring the fact it also needs to work. A possible fix would be to make stealth movement speed increase faster for the longer you've been stealthed.
- Need to know definitively when stealth is broken in PVP. That crappy sound isnt good enough. Some sort of stealth monitor like in Thief or a big RED/green button over players head would do.
-The only way a rogue can pvp now, is to run around unstealthed and try and land a wicked strike or 2. Which is not enough to kill 1 person 5 levels (10 levels if he can root/slow) below you.
- The above "Ravage" change would also help in PVP (if stealth worked) and be a good reward for a rogue who stalked.
Need that Escape a lot sooner than lv48 :brow
I'm going to add that our only usable stun, blind flash, needs a bigger range to have any use in pvp, with 99999% speed bard groups running around.
I guess I'll just have to have this conversation with myself! :thumb
Anyway over at silkyvenom, heres some feedback from a FFA pvp rogue, Renholder Orestes
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8415
Rogues Need Help. My FFA PvP Experience.
I know the game was JUST released and other classes are very unbalanced as well but I thought I'd throw my two cents out there.
I'm a level 11 Rogue and I have not killed any class one on one.
Let me be more specific.
I have two crafted daggers two levels above my character(great damage and speed).
I creep up behind an equal level necromancer who is fighting a bear already.
I get my ravage off for three hundred damage and hit him a few times. He turns around sicks his pet on me and throws a few spells off on me. I'm dead. He has half health.
What kind of class is this? Aren't Rogues supposed to be assassins that move in quick for the kill and move out before anyone sees anything?
I've been getting owned by Shamans, Psionicists, Dread Knights all 2-3 levels BELOW me.
I don't expect Rogues to be getting insane amounts of love anytime soon. I'm just getting the word out there that this class NEEDS help badly. Take a cue from the DAoC Infiltrator,Shadowblade,Nightshade. They had it right there. If you want to make an offensive class on the PvP server dont make a Rogue right now.
Having done a little bit more pvp over the last few days. I've come to the conclusion that run speed of all classes in combat, is far too overpowering and makes pvp an exercise in kiting.
For example, bards are able to be in melee range against a caster, see him cast, run out of range with their speed buff, cancel the casters cast halfway, then run back before the casters cast would cast. (yes thats a lot of casts). Now add ot that, the bard buffing his whole party, and its an excercise in kiting lag, with the only damage being done, ranged.
You cant kite a mob? Why let kiting be so bad in pvp? Its ridiculous. I honestly cant see how this is going to be fixed.
They NEED run speed buffs to break when you are in combat.
Also suggest some sort of "Silence", Snare & Debuff poisons if there isn't any already.
Such poisons is in line to what rogues can and suppose to do IMO.
I heard they are revamping poisons and tweaking some stuff about rogues so I do not know whats in and whats out.
Since I started in beta 4, I knew Rogues will be the worst class in PvP and they also do not offer anything new compared to other classes.
But stuck it out due to a hope that we will just get better.
Can't go anywhere else when you at the bottom of the barrel.
Just had my first PvP experience with the Rogue, it was a bit discouraging to say the least! I was level 12, tried to attack a level 14 Shaman that was already under attack by 2 others. I couldn't even hit him. Every attack (when I managed to get in melee range) was either evaded or blocked. Sure he was 2 levels higher but.... ew :p
Stealth doesn't seem to work so well either, at least in PvE. It's capped but everything of my level and higher will see me every time if I'm somewhere in front of them.
Shaolinz
02-05-07, 09:49 AM
Don't walk infront of mobs and expect to be in stealth long. Thats pretty much a given in all MMOs.
Don't walk infront of mobs and expect to be in stealth long. Thats pretty much a given in all MMOs.
Thanks for your insightful reply :roll
Stytch Yapgud
02-10-07, 06:41 AM
Thanks for your insightful reply :roll
Well whilst it may have been an obvious comment to you Vis it obviously isnt to the poster above him..
Stealth doesn't seem to work so well either, at least in PvE. It's capped but everything of my level and higher will see me every time if I'm somewhere in front of them.
Seriously au+ stealth is not invisibility you have to avoid walking right in front of the mob as it increases its chance to see you...
Anyway sorry for the off topic...
Okay, "It's like that in other MMOs so it should be like that in Vanguard too".
Anyway, it's fine. I just wanted to know how well it worked in PvP, as I only had some (bad) PvE experience. In another MMO I used to play stealth was much more reliable. But the whole thing should get redone soon anyway so never mind.
Stytch Yapgud
02-14-07, 11:55 AM
Okay, "It's like that in other MMOs so it should be like that in Vanguard too".
Anyway, it's fine. I just wanted to know how well it worked in PvP, as I only had some (bad) PvE experience. In another MMO I used to play stealth was much more reliable. But the whole thing should get redone soon anyway so never mind.
The problemwith saying its like that in every other mmorpg etc is that we asked them to make it more realistic in vanguard.. and harder...
Guess its a case of careful what you ask for :)
Although saying that Im pretty sure the chance of being seen was higher from in front of the mob with WoW as well.... I could be wrong I only played a rogue to 22 in WoW.
The problemwith saying its like that in every other mmorpg etc is that we asked them to make it more realistic in vanguard.. and harder...
Guess its a case of careful what you ask for :)
Although saying that Im pretty sure the chance of being seen was higher from in front of the mob with WoW as well.... I could be wrong I only played a rogue to 22 in WoW.
23 rogue here on teams pvp server... basicly stealth is useless guys 5 levels lower than me can see me across the entire map.. all our biggest attacks require stealth to be of utmost use.. which is useless in pvp... try getting a backstab off on a guy running around like a chicken with their head cut off... its a exercise in futility... sure u can use your bleeds but then your blnding powder doesnt work... wicked strike is about the only dmg at my level i can get on to target minus my bleeds. not to mention just about every other class can kite us... even f u get the opener on a guy f u dont crit they wll run and kill u... now mind u if u fight some guy who stands still and lets u backstab or even stay in stealth and wail on them from behnd then yes u can get klls... but whats the fun in killing a guy who has obvously never played a video game in his life.
if blind worked when the target was not facing u t might be a tad bit easier to pvp but even that wouldnt give us any kind of edge... i wont even get started on poisons... when your target is moving as much as people do in this game durring pvp 20 percent to aply a snare is just not enough... thnk ive landed a snare 1 time on a target.
at level 23 the way t is now if i fght a guy who knows how to play hs class and knows how the physics of the game works i have 0 chance of wnnng... lol unles of course i epc crt on a ravage on a opener ... but to do that the guy im trying to kll has to be sleeping or just plain suck.
now mind u this is a comparison to guys who are competant players... sure anyone can kill some 5 year old kid who is looking at the pretty water effects.
one major flaw n the pvp system is u can cast spells while u are moving... couple that with roots mezzes stuns and the like and rogues really are bottom feeders.
they need to make stealth impossible to detect on a rogue if he is aganst a = level target or lower and behind him... people shouldnt be able to see us when we are in stealth and frggin behind them... wth how easy t is for any class to kick our ass when we are outa stealth we should be able to do huge dmg to them if we play right..
nothing hurts more when i do get the drop on a guy ( prolly cus he was alt tabbed) and nail him with a ravage for 400 dmg to barely dent his life and have him turn around and procede to hand me my ass. Ive also noticed crits happen few and far in bewtween for us n pvp... and ive got the best weapons you can equip at my level.
pvp is so broken n this game atm i really dont know how i would fix the deal... but one things for sure... our stealth should be stealth and not super slow guy mode with a big kill me sign over my head.
imo if we could consistantly (if played rght and usng utmost skill) get openers on guys = level and drop them to around 20 percent life on average we then may have a chance... but with kiting and cc the way it is that still might not be enough.
oh and 1 more thing .. our snare should be a 1 time use with 100 percent to land if your attack hits the target... the dds and dots and what not can be a 30 minute percent buff... but the snare HAS to land ... make snare 100 percent to land but it only has 1 charge... that would at least gve us a way to control the fight a little. make the snare a 20 second lasting time. I mean for christ sakes a bard can run at light speed.... and make the slow a 80 percent movement debuff... then we might have a chance to actualy get a backstab off or 2... the sad thng is even wth these changes we would still be under powered.
Hello, I'm kinda new to these forums. But I do have a lot of experience playing a rogue type in just about every MMO to date. I'm playing on the FFA server and am a lvl 20 rogue in the guild Virakar. Honestly I think rogues are underrated right now (which can be used to your advantage), but at the same time we are pretty broke. I just don't think we're as broke in pvp as most people make it sound.
If you take the time to skill up your stealth and hide and really learn your class you can compete in pvp right now. Maybe not 1 vs 1 against a healer, but nor can pretty much any other class. PvP is still being balanced. Group pvp is where it's at though. Sure root is way overpowered right now and being kited sucks. But if your good enough you can manage to kill without even being noticed since you don't really break stealth until hit.
Use your personal buffs, use stealth to your advantage but be smart about it. Don't walk in front of people and take the long way around behind them if you have to. Sometimes I just charge in on a horse and demount/stealth and ravage before they know what hit em. Let your group engage before you do and focus on a light armored class, preferably a healer. Buffs are a pretty big deal in Vanguard so get them whenever possible. You have to develop tactics and get as much advantage over the enemy as possible.
Yes we are pretty broke, and certain classes are overpowered add that to the fact you can't even turn around while rooted. But we can still manage until we get completely fixed. You have to remember Vanguard is still new and is being balanced and fixed as we play. Not to mention they are purposely making the rogue a class you have to really learn how to play, so it will be harder at first. And remember the real pvp is at end game, so that's what really matters.
I do agree that stealth should get faster as your stalking level goes up, that would make sense. And ya that noise that someone seen your stealth sucks, I hardly ever notice it. Run speed buffs need to also be lowered while in pvp, I'd say make them half of what they're supposed to be while engaged in pvp just like damage is. But that's all just my .02
P.S. I look forward to being a part of this community as I enjoy being a rogue in every game I play.
versusvs
03-04-07, 08:41 PM
I'm thinkin rogues can use a bit more fine tuning and a fix or 2 in certain mechanics, but overall i think stealth is doing pretty well so far, its almost useless in group combat however (if more than 1 person on you)
Need more visual confirmation when:
- we have been seen
- we use Flash Powder, that we have an oportunity for a backstab, using a bar similar to those found on our Off, Def, Counter icons.
Also could use tweaking of code for:
- global timers: they're too slow to refresh, and maybe we should simply not have them as Rogues we already have so little vitality that we should be able to use it up quickly, because we are the "sprinter" type attackers. We simply do not have enough Vit to get into long drawn out fights. (ie - Stalk timer should not exist. We should be able to hide and unhide at will, PERIOD, since we're the ones who supposedly live in the shadows.)
Things we simply need to have more utility:
New Chain:
- Stunning Blow:
~Duration: 3 seconds
~Damage type: stun (increase global timer by 1.5 seconds for 3 seconds, decrase speed by 5%, and 15% on critical hit)
~Damage done: no physical damage
~Effect: cause loss of environmental sound, and limits vision to an NPC or player (almost like what a Flash Bang does in real life)
~Counter Attack: none
~Recast Time: 120 seconds
~Type of attack: weapon pummel to the head
~Location for attack to work: either side of NPC or player
~Other: Must be stalking
~Chained condition: when successful Strike Dumb: global timer goes to normal, but speed decrease remains for the full 8 seconds
~Cost: ??? Not really thought this out
- Strike Dumb:
~Duration: 5 seconds
~Damage type: stun
~Damage done: 10% mana and vitality OR 25% less damage to all spells/melees
~Effect: cannot call for "help" for 5 seconds and damage - 10% mana and vitality OR 25% less damage to all spells/melees
~Counter Attack: Any Defensive
~Recast Time: 120 seconds
~Type of attack: weapon pummel to the throat
~Location for attack to work: infront of NPC or player
~Other: Must be visible
~Sub-effect: can be side chained with an intercept(NPC), and continue to chain as normal (NPC/Player)
~Cost: ??? Not really thought this out
- Knock Senseless:
~Duration: 120 seconds
~Damage type: lose all sense of location
~Damage done: no physical damage
~Effect: no way to determine your location in world, information is removed from GUI, other players cannot determine your location on map/minimap/location arrow
~Counter Attack: none
~Recast Time: 120 seconds
~Type of attack: weapon pummel to back of the head
~Location for attack to work: behind NPC or player
~Other: successfull Stunning Blow, Strike Dumb, Blinding Flash
~Sub-effect: none
~Cost: ??? Not really thought this out
I'm sure I can think of some more that might really help us.
My rogue is only 16 but in both PvP and PvE, I'm seeing problems with damage output. I know I shouldn't expect to be able to win against 3 dot mobs of the same level, but so many other classes do. Even with 2 dot mobs, I sometimes have problems (rarely, but it's happened). It seems my attacks don't hit as often as other toons attacks do, and I think that's a problem in PvP as well.
I play on Tharridon and even if I can get in the first shot, it often misses, or does ridiculously low damage. My only hope to win a fight is to crit from the first attack. Stealth isn't as powerful as invis, but I think it only needs a little tweaking to get it to where it needs to be.
In most of the fights I've been involved in, I often have to throw powder in their face and then hightail it out of there. I'm not sure what the fix is, but I plan on continuing to play the rogue and to learn to get better in PvP.
Oh, I don't understand poisons at all yet. I got my first one "Healing Waters" and I have no idea what it is supposed to do and I haven't seen a proc message yet either.
Omani
Phantom Rogue
03-15-07, 07:21 AM
My only real complaint in PvP, is that I Wish Stealth was a better invis than Invis. Or all the See Invis buffs (which almost all caster classes get around level 8ish), dont see Stealth.
I mean, If im 6 levels higher, you shouldn't be able to see me before I Can even get close enough for a ravage/PP.
My Damage is OK, I dont try to 1v1, I gank most of the time. But if I dont get the jump on people, i am pretty much a sitting duck. However, Vanguard is still very green in the Software Life Cycle, so I give em a few more months before I hang up the daggers in this game too.
Mythdarr
03-15-07, 07:49 AM
My only real complaint in PvP, is that I Wish Stealth was a better invis than Invis. Or all the See Invis buffs (which almost all caster classes get around level 8ish), dont see Stealth.
I mean, If im 6 levels higher, you shouldn't be able to see me before I Can even get close enough for a ravage/PP.
My Damage is OK, I dont try to 1v1, I gank most of the time. But if I dont get the jump on people, i am pretty much a sitting duck. However, Vanguard is still very green in the Software Life Cycle, so I give em a few more months before I hang up the daggers in this game too.
I give them 8-9 months (rumored release date), until Warhammer comes out. Since mythic is behind it, pvp should be something in that game. So far I must say our situation did improve with the last patches, it's still not as I wish it to be but well any type of improvements is better than nothing at all.
I knew there would be an issue the day I got into the beta.
(a) The fact that run speed remains in combat is something that absolutely must be addressed. The kiting in combat mechanic as is makes what little we have of a pvp game in VG silly to say the least.
(b) Stealth is not stealth. At least let rogues have what casters have. If even other rogues/rangers have a chance to see enemy rogues/rangers, it will still make the stealth game viable. The difference between rogue x seeing rogue y should then be based on comparable stealth skill levels. This isn't rocket science - check out DAoC or WoW for a lesson on how to make a rogue function in an mmorpg.
(c) The game is so focused on the small amount of pve content being developed that we have to remember that THERE IS NO PVP DEVELOPMENT TEAM. That right there is disheartening.
Sorry Sigil, I don't feel really heroic putting down a predictable pve mob. Vanguard Saga of Heroes, sounds like something epic to me.
And finally:
(d) Developers don't read these forums
I've been posting as Scorbane on Silky Venom, as Komaf on the VN USA SERVER BOARDS. No responses whatsoever from the developers. Heck, they don't even have an official forum - it's as if they know there's 1,000,000 issues, but don't want anything pinning them down verbally on a message board.
The devs don't care about the pvp in this game, it's just a bone to appease folks who want the pve game but don't want anything more than a target and shoot pvp system-nothing more complex than that.
I've gotten to the point where I tell myself to stop beating a dead horse. The game has some cool pve elements, but you might as well play EQ2 - VGSOH is more like an EQ 1.5 Beta release. I know some great pvp games are coming out. Like what appears to be a majority of the Varking folks, I'm in with the groups of folks that will be moving.
The final irony is that (a) we get a mediocre game to kill the time till a new release that has the courage to build warfare into their game (b) Sigil gets some cash to improve their pve game.
In a sad sense, we both win while losing.
Pakesso
04-02-07, 01:42 PM
I have to agree with Kensai. I don't understand that after all that experience makin' EQ and such, that the core mechanic of Vanguard could be so skewered. They must have nailed gameplay to have such a loyal following of EQ. Turn to 3rd generation:Vanguard, and there are problems. It seems that with 15 classes, they could have made a concentration sphere on just what the classes could do amongst themselves. Mobs are generally reflections of what players are anyway, such as FFXI. Fighter mobs, caster mobs, etc.
Now had they started with the wonderful choice of 15 classes, they could have looked at how it would balance between classes. Look at the Bard. That class is almost ridiculous. You start with your heavy fighters, they can hit hard but not fast. They might have might, but not much accuracy. You have you light fighters, they hit fast and with accuracy, but not much might. Dependant on criticals. You have your offensive casters. They can attack, but can't heal very well. You have your defensive casters. They can heal, but can't attack worth a damn. Need support...etc.
Once they have that set, they can then give the warriors a move, but at the same time, give each other class a counter move. Then they build on that. Every class that gets a certain ability, has a counter or even ability for other classes. At some point, classes separate and it becomes evident that some have advantages over others, but only in certain situations. It has to be like the food chain, but there would be no "Lion King Of The Jungle" kinda thing here. LOL Everyone would feast on something, but would be feasted on in return.
The reason i see this as a good start is that from there, PvP is already perfectly settled. Then you move to mob creation and sort them accordingly. If your inter-class game is balanced, then shouldn't everything else you create fall in line too? God created the Earth, and it was good until he made Man. LOL Sigil created Telon, and it was good until they made 15 friggin' classes that are all bugged and have glaring weaknesses and strength which thrust some of these classes to the forefront. How goddamn cool would it be if some classes that might be considered weak alone, such as Rogue, would have Rogue specific combos as a duo team. I still find it 1st generation to assume that a good party needs a tank, healer, and dps or whatever fills in between. A party of 6 of the same class seems like it should theoritically be quite the force to recon with. Especially if they have chains that build X6 due to their numbers.
Anyway, i'm going to shut up and enroll into a college that shows me how to make my own damn game. LOL I'm 31, i figure i can make a kick ass MMORPG by the time i'm 40. Keep the faith people. Keep the faith...