psionics: broken or... broken?

[EZ_Nerey Soltare T lan]

ok, after reading most of the 3e D&D psionics book and then seeing the holes exploited and put into action, i have one fix i'd like to suggest: have a power point cap per level. the amount of power points you can have determines what you can do. my twink friend had a lvl 8 psion with over 100 power points (the extra gained from various magic items he designed and the DM approved [big mistake!] and feats). basically, at lvl 8 he used heighten power on create astrial construct to create a lvl 18 construct which singlehandedly decimated an entire party of 5 8th lvl pcs AND two lvl 15 npcs in 2 rounds without taking a scratch. when i talked to him after the bloodbath (as i was one of the lambs let to the slaughter) he said that he could have done that 3 more times if he needed to. <b>THIS IS ALL COMPLETELY LEGAL</b> ::shudder:: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spicer Channal
Not-Quite-Pointy-Ear'd Backstab Machine
of the 22nd Circle, Tarew Marr
Jete's Cabana Boy & Friend of the Fourth Wall
The Diet Coke of Evil
He who hath decided he doesn't have enough titles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Glip the Gnome]

Psionics has always been broken and was a bad idea from its conception.

The released versions of it are never allowed in my campaigns, although we have allowed home versions of it which are balanced and don't have a learning curve of world craft. Glip the Gnome
Best Smelling Admin: The Safehouse
Overlord of Doom: The Scurvy Dog Buffet
Where are my pants?

[Koru]

Psionics - a nice idea ruined by really really stupid implementation in gosh, about every edition of D&D to date. It kind of ticks me off because I wanted to try out the DS setting, heck, we tried just about every other D&D setting. My group flat out refused because of the psionic system (which I didn't really care for, I just wanted to play a man-eating halfling!).

When one of us insisted on testing for wild talent and (supposedly) passed the roll I found out why they all started screaming at the mention of Psionics. Some people should be banned from ever throwing dice again. Psionics in adventure, campaign, character, monster = Kiss of Death. Edited by: Koru at: 2/20/02 7:40:14 pm

[Caowyth]

Broken.

But saveable if one so chooses. Psionics for players is a bad idea though.

I can remember some earlier game sessions in which people with psionics could dominate dragons, etc.

My current gamemaster, heh, well you wouldn't want to try messing with a dragons head even if you did have psionics.

Cao

[ShadowCross]

The current rules are MUCH much better than the 2nd edition ones.

What you described up in the first post is "munchkinism" at it's best. That's not limited to psionics. Besides the already mentioned mistake the GM made it was also shamelessly optimized.. another mistake by the GM to allow it.

It's the same with any class. I've seen optimized D&D 3rd characters all the way - I've got a few people that are really good at finding loopholes and other ways to optimize here in our groups.

I have seen my share of insane weapon/skill/feat/prestige class combos combined with items and stuff that made me cry when I saw it in action. E.g. a cleric that will always be leagues better than a equal level pure fighter. Or a wizard with a higher AC than a fighter. All legal.


You can have munchkins in every game. It's NOT a flaw in the rules but rather a "flaw" in the player.

I saw a shadowrunner kill a DRAGON with 2 shots (so 1 initiative pass since the weapon was semi-automatic) from a sniper-rifle. And that was a NEW character! (And hardly optimized at all).

I saw D&D 2nd edition chars around level 10-12 kill an ADULT BLUE DRAGON without the dragon ever doing damage. (And they didn't melee at all)

I saw D&D 3rd edition chars that killed twice their level in enemy levels PER ROUND.



It's always a combination of these things:

- Errors made by the GM in allowing certain things (sure, they are legal according to the rules, but that doesn't mean he has to allow it)
- Munchkins at work by "exploiting" loop-holes and stuff
- sticking too close to the rules instead of keeping realism and gameplay at a higher priority ShadowCross Bladesong
-Teir'dal Assassin, Antonious Bayle


- Saracen Infiltrator, Albion, Guinevere
- Kobold Rogue, Midgard, Morgan le Fay
- Vaes Bladesong, Briton Tracker, Albion, Guinevere

Safehouse Moderator
The Most Holy One, ShadowCross, First Saviour of the Muffins
Lord Dominar and High Priest of the html help Inquisition

[EZ_Vilkata Tasavalt]

I've always loved Psionics in D&D.
They're just as "broken" as any other spell-type.

Vilk

[Koru]

Well the main thing I've seen is that psionics have always been too complicated and different from the rest of the game. I though the 2nd edition psionic rules were just a pain in the buttocks, slow, unwieldy, rather neglected and far too complicated. Add to that that it's not commonly used in adventues, munchkins attraction to the complicated illunderstood system and how over powered some of the abilities were and it's not surprising a lot of people don't want to bother with it.

[Llabak Tharr]

LOL how do you 'exploit' in DnD?

Player: 'According to rule 7 on page 123 of the psionics handbook, if I do X, Y and Z in a row (each requiring a DC of 2, and I have a +12 bonus on that skill), I instantly kill the foozle! Wheeee!'

DM: 'That's the most rediculous @#%$ thing I've ever heard. You can't be serious'

Player: 'Puhleeeeeeze?'

DM: 'No.'

LOL problem solved. Llabaktharr Gigglegiggler
51 Lawncare Facilitator and gnomosexualizer of da ladies (retired)
And introducing: Heremon, Level 29 Firbolg Bard of Percival
100% socializer 53% explorer 33% achiever 13% killer and 100% lover.
AGM for Camelot, Crusaders of the Realms

Can ya dig it?

[Elerion]

Well, some (bad) DMs I have played with would just go "Uhm ... if the rules say so ... you kill the Elder Dragon"

Never tried Psionics myself, so I have no clue about how they work. Have not heard a single good thing about them though

[ShadowCross]

Llabak, that's exactly what I said:

- Errors made by the GM in allowing certain things (sure, they are legal according to the rules, but that doesn't mean he has to allow it)

And Koru: The psionic rules in 3rd edition are MUCH better.. they are basically almost the same as magic.

Oh, another funny thing (D&D 3rd): a handful of goblins can kill a level 15+ character quite easily. How? They just all grapple the highlevel char. Once one managed to grapple (not that hard, although not easy for a goblin), the next on can just do a coup de grace (killing blow) and kill the character (or at least heavily wound him).

[EZ_Frostsong]

Psionics are nifty npc tools, imo.

I like giving "the bad guys" access to powers and abilities that players don't possess. It's a good way to maintain an air of mystery and power around the NPCs.

As far as player tools...meh. I'm wary of them, but no more wary than I am of magic spells. Invariably, there is always one player that will get the disintegrate discipline and start vaporizing everything in sight.

Then again, it's no more easy to abuse than, say, Power Word:Kill. In short, psionics are ok, but your mileage may vary.

[Caowyth]

Psionics are far more broken than spellcasting. At least with spellcasting there is MR that monsters can have. Last I checked there isn't any Psionics Resistence, and I can't think of any of the psionic attacks that won't work on just about anything. (Fighting a god? Hit him with an Ego Whip!).

Heck, for just the attack portion of it, Id Insinuate is more broken than anything. Doesn't do damage, just disables the target. At least with instant-kill spells it usually takes the opponents magice items, etc with them. Or has a chance of it.

Btw- Most broken spell in 2nd edition? Polymorph Other.

Cao

[EZ_Telurinon]

Frostsong, you just gave one of the primary rules why I dislike Psionics: "It gives the NPCs an air of mystery..."

Magic isn't enough?! I mean...it's friggin' magic! It can do anything!

Psionics, if put in a game, makes it harder for GMs to balance encounters and harder for players to anticipate or react to encounters as the number of variable to consider has escalated. Neither side of the screen is really better off for it. Telurinon Aelvenborne, 50th Rogue of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 39th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 24th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

[EZ_Frostsong]

Quote: Magic isn't enough?! I mean...it's friggin' magic! It can do anything!

Meh...I think you misunderstand my intent. but in response to your question, in my particular game, no. The group I play in has seen magic, in all its myriad forms, before. On the other hand, none of them has played with psionics....

Hence, why I added, "your mileage may vary".

Quote: Psionics, if put in a game, makes it harder for GMs to balance encounters and harder for players to anticipate or react to encounters as the number of variable to consider has escalated. Neither side of the screen is really better off for it.

Ah, here I have to disagree. The symptoms you describe sound more indicative of a poor GM or poor planning. In the campaign I'm in, PCs do not have access to any psionic abilities; only certain NPCs (The current arch-nemesis, for example) exhibit any degree of skill. Why is this good? Because it forces the player to do something besides cast defense spell, attack spell, etc. Sure, the baddy has an advantage over the players (What eveil genius doesn't?), but as a GM, I'm obligated to include a method for the players to defeat the baddy. Furthermore, if the players use their heads, they're bound to figure it out.

Increasing the number of variables might just be 'A Good Thing' (tm). Keeping players on their toes is good. Forcing them to think and react to new situations is a sign of a good adventure. (Granted, imo). I'm not implying that you should abuse psionics to mindlessly slaughter PC's - don't get me wrong - but I don't see why any carefully thought out adventure can't include an evil psionicist, as opposed to the "evil wizard and his band of orcs, version 7.0."

but, hey, it's DnD with an optional rule. That's the beauty of it. You don't like it, you don't use it, and everybody's happy.

Although, I still think 2ed is better. All to-hit roles should be based off some sort of quantum physics formula

[EZ_Kethaal]

SX: I know what you mean. lol. I've been in campaigns where "power-gaming" was par for the course. There was a bunch of kooky characters in the group, and after having my first character die because he was very, erhm, underpowered (a kobold druid, no less) I ended up making a Githzerai monk. I ended up rolling two 18's (I've got blessed character dice. On 4d6 drop low, I've rolled straight 18s) and with the three small psi skills I had, as long as I was concious, I couldn't be suprised, and I had a 28ac (IIRC) nekkid. That character ended up surviving until I moved a couple months ago to go to school.

Moral of the story: Psionics are overpowered, really. If I GM, sometimes I allow players to completely opt-out of psionics, they can't use them, and their characters are unaffected by them. It takes a bit of GM'ing skills to work it out in the story line, but it accomidates for players, and keeps people happy.

2nd Moral: Sometimes it isn't so bad to be a little munchkin. Especially if it's par for the course. Just try to be unique, and munchkin, at the same time.

[ShadowCross]

Caowyth: There IS a psionic resistance. AND there is a will save that applies against almost all psionic attacks/abilities.

[EZ_Kintire]

Psionics is not broken. 2nd edition was, but 3rd edition is fine. Its just an even more flexible magic system. As for the problem in the first post.... I'm at work so I don't have the rulebook to hand but that sounds like about 3-4 times the power points he should have had, and I'm pretty confident that heighten Power should NOT be able to boost a power that high. Its the DM who's broken not the system...

[ShadowCross]

Oh, btw.. in the Introduction to the 3rd Edition Psi rules they even acknowledge that the 2nd Edition rules were out of line and how they tried to keep the new rules move comparable to the rest of the system.

I think they managed quite well. But a lot of it depends on how you deal with magic vs. psionics matters.

[Caowyth]

I'm not familiar with 3rd edition psionics rules, or very little else in 3rd edition for that matter.

So if they've added psionic resistence, it's new to me. 2nd edition had no such animal.

Cao

[EZ_Kethaal]

Really I think the psi resistance in 3rd is kinda to make up for the lack of an mthac0, like in 2nd ed.

Really, I've never been much of a psionics person, played with a person that really liked it. (Uggh, I hated his psionic adept centaur. don't ask...) But I've always been a spells and swords person.

[ShadowCross]

Well, for any further posts please state if you are referring to 3rd or 2nd edition rules (not directed at Cao, but anyone). It's pretty useless discussing different things without knowing.

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

2nd or 3rd Edition rules?!

Let's go waaaaay back to that often-overlooked Appendix in the back of the First Edition Player's Handbook. Y'know, the one that you can find immediately behind the First Edition Bard? There's some unbalancing stuff, lemme tell you! Kehvrynne Quickblade, Professional Damsel of Distress
No matter how subtle the wizard, a dirk between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.

[EZ_thal0012]

One of the darksun supplement revised all the 2nd edition psionics that were imbalancing(and added a few). Anyway it was psionic heavy and gave some in depth rules for quite a few of the psionic disciplines that were abused by players. Even warping time was cool and mostly used for setting up a backstab in our campaings Oh well ignore me, I went from a small time poster here about EQ and DAoC to getting all nostalgic and talkative about they good ole pnp days

[Caowyth]

(2nd Edition)Yeah, I'd say the one that allowed you to open a psionic teleportation gate you could march troops through at first level was a bit unbalancing.

And some of us haven't made, or will never make the jump to 3rd edition. Our 2nd edition game has already been heavily modified to the point where it exceeds even 3rd edition.

Cao

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Let me just clear up a HUGE misconception both the player and the DM made in the original situation. I am going to cut and paste and "fix" the problem. Not by the infamous DM fallback "Because I said so, and I run the game" but straight from the book rules =)

" have a power point cap per level. the amount of power points you can have determines what you can do. my twink friend had a lvl 8 psion with over 100 power points ...basically, at lvl 8 he used heighten power on create astrial construct to create a lvl 18 construct . "

This is illegal. At level 8, the highest power a psionisist can have is level 4, and Astral Construct IV fits that bill. So we are working with AC IV. Straight from the book pg 53, "As astral construct I, except you can create one 4th-level astral construct..." or a bunch of smaller ones. He is hard capped at a level 4 construct, maximum.

The mistake is in the misreading and misunderstanding of what Heighten Power can do. Pg 26 states, " A heightened power has a higher psionic power level than normal (up to 9th) level. Unlike other metapsionic feats, Heighten Power actually increases the effective level of the power that it modifies. All effects dependent on power level (such as saving throw DCs and the ability to penetrate a minor dead psionics zone or a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened power costs as many power points as a power of its effective level."

Basically it says the it takes generic power level X power, and changes the POWER LEVEL to Y, where X<Y. It does NOT actually change the power. It is still Astral Constuct IV. The ONLY change to the power is now it is a power level of > 4, and has a cost of that higher level power.. This would affect any DCs (because they increase with higher level abilities) and level dependent actions (such as penetrating the aforementioned Minor Globe of Invulnerability). It does not change what the power itself can do. It only changes the level of said ability.

So your twink friend would have only summoned a level 4 Astral Construct. Anyway, AC IX summons a level 9 construct which is the "harp cap" (to swipe an EQ term) for mortal psionics (at least until Epic level campaigns come out).

To sum it up, Heighten Power, when used, will only change the level of the power (1-9) and the DC (if any) attatched to it. This includes Concentration checks as it would effectively be the higher level power. It does not change the damage done, the type of monster summoned, the duration, or anything dependant on the manifester (caster) level.

An easy way to think of it is just for that time only, change the Level: Psion 1 to Level: Psion 6 and Power Points 1 to Power Points 11 (just an example). Everything else (Display, Manifestation Time, Range, Target or Area, Duration, Saving Throw (Results, not DC), Power Resistance) including damage and special effects, stay the same.

Heightening some level 1 powers/spells (such as grease) to level 9 can have some fun results. When lethal magic/abilities are not allowed (some towns frown upon it), being able to bump the DC on grease up by 8 points, while expensive, can be useful *wink*.

Whew, I quit now =)

Sillis, Itching to find a decent 3e DnD group.

[EZ_Kintire]

Sillis>Me

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Sorry about that, Kintire. I should have started off acknowledging your post (which was short and correct). Once I got the "let's go get the rulebook" urge, I lost my overall train of thought =)

My wife is TDY at the moment, and needless to say I have too much time on my hands, hence the encyclopedia-ish answer =/

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

No, I was serious.

Your post was well informed, firmly backed up and completely definitive.

You rule!

/cheer

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Just to let everyone know, unless you use the Psionics Are Different Variant (pg 39) SR (spell resistance) directly translates to PR (power resistance).

Even if you do use that variant, there is a guideline that states if the monster has a SR >10, subtract 10 from it and that is its PR. The is reversible, i.e. if they have a PR >10, subtract 10 for their SR. This keeps powerful critters from being goosed by a level one psionic without a fight, and powerful psionic creatures from being plinged to death by a legion of level 1 Magic Missile casting Mages =)

The exception to that rule (heheh) is if the creature who has psionic powers and a SR automatically gains a PR of equal value. It does not say, but I would assume that it would be fair if a PR possessive monster has spell ability, they would get an equal MR.

Let me try to sum it up.

If you do not use the Psionics Are Different variant, SR and PR are interchangeable.

If you use it, and the monster is pure magic/psionic, then SR-10 (or PR-10)= PR (or SR).

If the monster has psionic abilities and a SR (or IMO magic abilities and a PR) PR and SR are again interchangeable.

As Shadowcross has said, the Psionic Rules are so tame (yet still viable/powerful) in 3e, old timers will almost laugh at them compared to older rule sets (especially Darksun). Psionisists are basically Sorcerers who have fewer "spells" but pull from a "mana pool" to cast. Yes, I mean they have fewer powers available per level than Sorcerers, not mages =) That is how I think of them at least. Of course, there are also Psionisist specific Feats/Skills, and some magic items built just for them.

Here is the chart for a Level 20 pure Psionisist. Format is Level of power:Powers known:Cost to use a power of this level. The +d is from their "specialty school", just like a specialist mage.

0:7+d:0/1 (Can use Class Level +3/day for free)
1:4+d:1
2:4+d:3
3:4+d:5
4:4+d:7
5:3+d:9
6:3+d:11
7:2+d:13
8:2+d:15
9:1+d:17

At level 20, the base PP (power points) are 183. With a reasonable (aka 24 to 25) ability score in their school's prime ability (it varies from school to school), the level 20 Psionisist will have 13 bonus points for a grand total of 196. This does not (obviously) include feats, items, etc.

Just wanted to give you all a taste of 3e Psionics.

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

Psychic warriors are also cool. They get few PPs and a restricted list, and d8 hits. but they get fighter feat numbers, and access to the psionic feats which are BITCHIN'


They are Jedi. Don't try to deny it....

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Yeah, they are decent looking. Kind of a limited Fighter/Mage wrapped into one. They get fewer powers/power points per level, and have the Rogue (15/10/5 at 20) attack table, but you do not have to dual class to get there. Mix in another class for the splash value (Ranger, Cleric, maybe Rogue for some of the neato "resolve as a ranged touch/touch attack" for sneak attacks) and you have a nice mixture of potential abilities. Granted, if you want the psionics to have the potential to be a substantial part of the character, you are looking (long term) at taking them to level 10 or so in Psychic Warrior. But the fun is getting there =)

The touch attack/ranged touch attack feats (Deep Impact, Fell Shot, Unavoidable Strike) just give me the willies =)

DM:"Ok, for your last attack your bonus is +4, his AC is 27, you need a 20 to hit. Looks like he will live and with you only having 7 hit points left it could be bad. *evil grin*"

Player:"I use deep impact, spend 5 power points, and his AC drops to, um, 12. Now I need an 8. *rolls* Whack! Thank you, drive through!"

*shudder*

Before you scream NERF!, at level 10, a FULLY charged Psychic Warrior will have 33 Power Points. Trust me, they won't be at full power at that point =)

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

The psychic warrior powers are so not the point...

Feats.....

Inertial Armour, like Mage armour only all the time. Speed of thought, plus 10 move, stackable (!) and of course... Up the walls!

[EZ_Telurinon]

One Intellect Devourer can ruin any Psi Warriors day. :) Telurinon Aelvenborne, 50th Rogue of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 39th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 24th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

I don't know if there is a god; I think there is some power behind all of this but I don't think it is aware of us as individuals.
If it is, I am SO going to kick it's ass when I meet it.

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Inertial Armor is a +armor bonus, aka it will not stack with any type of armor. As armor doesn't affect psionics, you are generally better off wearing armor. Now, if you are a Psychic Warrior/Rogue.... But remember, if for some reason you go to 0 PP, Inertial Armor stops working.

Yes the feats are quite nice. But the powers can be very useful. Call Weaponry, Hustle, Combat Prescience, Levitate, Claws of the Vampire, Displacement, Metaphysical Weapon, Ubiquitous Vision etc etc. Those are all off the Psychic Warrior list, and nothing was over level 3.

Let's not forget about Attack and Defense modes. Most of the "good" feats require you to be above a certain PP level. Psychic Warrior = deathtrap if you aren't willing to spend those points. If you do not bother throwing up a defense, you are in serious trouble =/

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

Psychic Warriors have a lot of mobility style stuff, leaps and speed boosts and run along walls and suchlike. The Armour check penalties are annoying for those and the speed reduction is terrible. In fact, that speed reduction for heavy armour is all around grim.... If the party loses the fight you are dead or captured if you can't run away. Inertial armour has no check penalty and no speed reduction.

What's more in a campaign like the ones I tend to play in, with more in the way of world wandering and less dungeon crawling, heavy armour is often not an option. You can't really wear it in city streets, and definitly not to social functions. With inertial armour and summon weapon you are always ready for action!

As for psionic combat modes.... I'm frankly not too disturbed. So a Psion pierced my defenses and did a couple of stat points damage. big whoop. Excuse me while I carve him a second smile. Any psion dappy enough to use his wussy attack modes instead of his actually rather unpleasent powers is to dumb to be a threat.

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Well, the point of all of those mobility based feats is to allow getting around the penalties. This type of a character is not going to wear the heaviest armor IMO, as it robs them of their best abilities. These guys are not pure "tanks", they lack the oomph. Think of them as "fixers". These guys get to the mages, move to add some offense in a bad spot, or fill holes.

Inertial armor is OK at lower levels, but once enchanted armor and such shows up, it is redundant. Sure, if you get caught nekkid, it helps. Better for the Psion IMO, or the Psychic Warrior/Rogue(Ranger) multiclass. Remember, you do have to have that one power point for it to be active. It doesn't sound like much, but to a character with so few points to begin with, it is important. Also, Psionic Dead Zones and Catapsi effects= problems potentially. A plain suit of armor does not have these worries (although it has a whole other set of potential problems).


Not trying to be judgmental, but I think you are missing the point of Psionic Attack modes.

They are not there to blow you out of the water. What they do is drop some key stats into the range where you can no longer use those big, icky Powers. Congrats on that 19 INT. You can use level 9 powers that have INT as their key ability. Oops, take 2 int damage. I just denied you two full power levels of abilities. Wouldn't you love to deny a lich his level 8 and 9 spells that easily (potentially)?

That Psion is not going to sit there and duke it out with you. If a lot of his powers are Will based DCs, he will try to do some Wis damage to you. If he knows you have a power that could be troublesome he can just try to do enough Stat damage to you to drop you below the "you must have <stat>= level +10 to use". Remember, temporary stat damage can take days to heal. Not every conflict is to the death. One psychic crush, however, doing 2d4 WIS damage, can put you over a barrel. That is comparable to potentially -4 on all Will saves until it can heal... And Mind Blast is great against non-psionics =)

With some of the feats, they can also do additional stat damage and/or drain extra power points. It adds another dimension to the tactics involved and available.

I agree with you in most regards. A lot of these abilities seem tailored for very specific uses, and some seem tame. But personally I shudder at the thought of two attacks doing 16 Wis damage. Remember if ANY stat goes to 0, you are helpless. (pg 42 under Ability Damage From Psionic Attacks)

*edit*
As was pointed out in the next post, Non Psionics are stunned by successful powers, they do not take abilitiy damage. I am going to remove it, as I would not want someone reading what I put and assuming it is correct.
/em removes foot from mouth.
*end edit*



Sillis Edited by: Sillis Spineslicer at: 3/19/02 9:44:13 am

[EZ_Kintire]

I thought nonpsis only took stun?

And the problem with psi attacks is that, effective as they may be against psions, when it comes down to it a psychic warrior will be dealing with a psion by the application of pointy things to vulnerable spots, and the loss of a psionic power or two is irrelevant. Given the kick ass mobility of a psychic warrior, the psion will get one zap and its hello painful melee land. As far as I can see, any psion of any level will be better of using a discipline than a psionic attack. I'll grant you the possible exception of mindblast, but why reduce an attacker's Wis by 2, or 10, if you can disintegrate them instead? Okay, if the subject precedes his attack by dribbling and grunting 'Og smash!' whacking his int could be a good move, but assuming he has no obvious weakness, blast him!

And as I said, while you are right for a dungeon crawl, in a more city based social and power politics campaign, being caught naked, well, at least not in full armour, is actually fairly common.

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Whoops you are correct, they would "only" be stunned. /em reaches up to remove his foot from his mouth. I will edit my previous post and make a mark to show this.

Not every Psion takes all of the overly evil hideous powers. Remember, players tend to min/max, while the Villain tends to use abilities to control things from behind the scenes through minions, misinformation etc etc. The lack of available powers/level to a Psion makes them take something that will be the most useful in any given situation. Or at least they should. They simply do not have the flexibility to take specialist powers. That is, unless they do not want to live long. They can also learn lessor powers in the place of higher level ones. While this may seem self defeating, because they are power point based and not level based, it can be useful.

As to letting you get to my Psion (or whatever) after one power use, if I do that, well, I goofed =) If you go after my Mage/Psion, well, that is when his personal Psychic Warrior/Rogue bodyguard flanks you and beats you into submission. If the Psion does not have an escape method, or at least something to allow him to separate (dimension door, fly, invisibility, etc) he should have never survived that long to begin with =)

Personally, I would try a multi-pronged attack against a Psychic Warrior. All of the movement enhancing feats (that I saw) took 13 wisdom as a prerequisite. I would try to hit you with a one shot debilitating power. If that did not work, next would come Psychic Crush. At 2d4 Wis per pop, odds are one or two will remove all of those lovely movement based feats. Luckily, empty mind is the best defense against it, and only costs one point per use. But it will force you pay attention to your Power Points. And if they manage to get it through...

I agree with you on the wandering in town situation. Don't get me wrong. However, I would still have a suit of armor for dungeon crawling, militia action, castle storming, etc etc. Inertial armor, to me, is a backup system for the classes who can wear medium or better armor. For light/no armor classes, though, it would be quite nice.

I knew I should have started reading this particular forum sooner. I have actually enjoyed this =) Now I just need to find a gaming group around here. Darned military moving us around *grumble*

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

Okay, sure I see that might work. But I STILL say that if you forgot that whole 'zap Wis' tactic and disintegrated the Psychic Warrior instead, that would reduce her mobility more....

And bringing other classes in is cheating. If we're going down THAT road, I'll call my Barbarian friend in to turn your Psywar/Rogue into a Psywar Rogue

[EZ_Sillis Spineslicer]

Nah, it's not cheating =) Just trying to show that the "run up and carve the Psion (insert wimpy caster class here)" generally will not work as a simple solution. Psychic Warrior/Rogue just seems so potentially evil I couldn't pass it up.

Disintegrate= Fortitude Partial save. Psychic Warrior = strong vs Fortitude. Go for a different save =p (just being nit picky, I understand what you mean).

You never know. Maybe Psionic Combat is the only form of direct confrontation allowed in the campaign for Psion v Psion, or maybe they are like a Mageduel. I personally think, at least from a DM point of view, that they are quite useful as "engage, annoy, run away" tactics. I manage to send a couple flunkies, they get a few points of ability damage through, run away. You know, the skirmish tactics Kobolds and such love to use. Except it is not Hp damage, it is Ability damage that can take a lot longer to heal...

Think of Psionic combat as a cleric Turn Undead ability. It is meant for specific situations, where as the powers are the general use items. Luckily, the Psionic Combat modes are learned as a matter of course, aka they do not cost feats or take skill points. Catching someone flat footed in a Psionic Combat means bad news for the flat footed person. Personally I think this is where it has a great amount of use.

Ooo, they do not know I am here. Here, have a DC check vs (on average 11 8 (flat footed) 2 stat bonus) of 21 on Mr. Psychic Crush. Once again, on average that is 5 points of Wisdom down the tubes. Suddenly the Psychic Warrior (or Psion) has that stat cut by a third or more, denying feats, skill, and powers. Not only that, but it eliminates probably 2 points of bonus on a Will save.

Against the Disintegrate, the DC is the same flat footed or not. I like the idea of flat footed Psionics.

Like I said, I understand what you mean. But think of combat modes as a masterwork tool. It may not do the job for you, but it can make it a heck of a lot easier in the right situation =)

Sillis

[EZ_Kintire]

okay, yes. I guess the harder to heal thing is a factor...

As a Psychic Warrior, though, I think the feats are more of an issue than the powers.

[EZ_Cordo Crowfoot]

Quote: Oh, another funny thing (D&D 3rd): a handful of goblins can kill a level 15+ character quite easily. How? They just all grapple the highlevel char. Once one managed to grapple (not that hard, although not easy for a goblin), the next on can just do a coup de grace (killing blow) and kill the character (or at least heavily wound him).

Actually, being grappled doesn't make you helpless so you can't be CDG'ed. Grappling would be way to powerful otherwise. "Held" on page 133 of the PHB refers to the Hold Person/Hold Monster spell effect.

[EZ_Cordo Crowfoot]

Let's go waaaaay back to that often-overlooked Appendix in the back of the First Edition Player's Handbook. Y'know, the one that you can find immediately behind the First Edition Bard? There's some unbalancing stuff, lemme tell you!

I always balanced it out by actually rolling on the table of monsters attracted to psionic activity. Not sure why more people didn't do that...

A good chance of nasties (including Mind Flayers) showing up when you used your powers made people much less likely to use them.

[EZ_Kintire]

perhaps because at first or second level Mind Flayer= Campaign over. Why have the damn things if you can't use em?

[EZ_Cordo Crowfoot]

Quote: perhaps because at first or second level Mind Flayer= Campaign over. Why have the damn things if you can't use em?Exactly my point. That is a very good threat to have over your head and a good reason not to use Psi powers on a whim.

[EZ_Kintire]

Not exactly very satisfying though is it? I daren't EVER use any psi because the risks are too horrible... why is it even on my sheet?

And what about the other PCs? I'll just die now with no chance of survival whatsoever, because one of my companions actually used a cool power and summoned a thing we could never hope to beat?

Sucks.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

There is no surprise in "D&D is broken" always has been always will be. Its a roleplaying game. Its for playing ROLES! "Rules Lawyer" was a class in the early dragon magazine as a joke that you could finally play a ROLE. If people are more involved in stacking components teach them to be involved in playing a ROLE! My DM would _only_ kill off a character if you failed to play a ROLE. That should be in the guide book lots of people use it. That said no one is playing a ROLE at level 5 by attacking a blue dragon (cept one amusing roleplayer i met who might have lived cause of that) They die now =) learn to play a ROLE!

[EZ_Kintire]

It isn't broken.

Anyway, in order to play a role correctly you need consistent background rules. Just as our world runs by rules, so that I can predict the consequences of my choices, so must an RPG. In chaos, choice is meaningless. Also, a random element is both realistic and desirable, within a careful framework.

Rules assist the Role. At least, good rules do.

[Kroe]

ever since I saw the rules for psionics raped in 2nd edition I have refused to have anything to do with them. one of the gamers in the group is trying to get me to look into the new rules but I think the munchkins (yes more than one person raped 2nd edition psi) have ruined it for me.

unfortunately you are right everything can be munchkinized, but psionics seem more prone to it than anything else. (had a sorcerer who would cast true strike to give a plus 20 to hit then do called shots to eyes with a crossbow)