Pen Pencil Rogue Reality

[EZ_PennyP]

Question:

I play an evil-as-hell rogue. A rogue with necromantic leanings. Relatively high level, truly insane dexterity, and move silently / stay hidded approaching 100%. Ive got a three foot long pole with a giant spearhead, and a stiletto. My question is:

Basically, what's to stop me from just slaughtering every single person in the whole town?

I once tried to do this, collecting <an organ> for the necromancy. I just went into every door, rolled <99 on a bunch of die rolls, and just slit every throat in an entire village in one evening. it was perfectly by the rules - go in, MacBeth em, and get out.

There must be a rogue based module to mitigate our psychosis.

Know of one?

[EZ_Swipey]

Hm.. Nobody moves around in this town I guess. Nobody comes across bodies or blood pools or people missing from where they were supposed to be. Lets assume youre doing this during the night and everyone stays immobile the whole night.

The problem is time then. If it takes, say 5 minutes to sneak, pick lock, sneak, kill, Hide the body, sneak on to the next person, that means youre killing 12 people an hour, or about 70 people in the course of an entire night. That may be everyone in a village, but it might not be too.

Lets be generous and say you can kill people at a rate of 1 per minute all night, 480 people in 8 hours. That will cover even a large village. So what next?

Well, an atrocity of that level WILL draw the attention of everyone in the area, and even beyond it. Including those with more power and wealth than simple villagers. Starting with the local lord, who will determine that this was not the work of orcs, or brigands, but of something more singular, and more deadly. If he cant find you, or doesnt think he can take you if he does, he will get help elsewhere, likely putting a reward up. This will draw adventurers, and you know what an unpredictable pain they can be. Then there is the clergy of all the religions to which the villagers belonged to. Consulting their gods to find out who did it, preaching throughout the country for your head.

Basically, you'd be tracked, physically and magically, and most likely eventually be found. Once found, The finders would try, and probably succeed, in putting you down like a rabid dog. (Six to eight adventurers of similar level to you attacking you by suprise will usually do it)

I'd say thats what keeps a high level rogue from assassinating mass numbers of villagers. It draws too much attention.

[ShadowCross]

Besides, there are at least 3 other facts...

1. Even evil rogues aren't lunatic mass-murderers.

2. I don't think that a massacre of this grade would go unnoticed by the gods. And even a level 20+ rogue won't be more than a minor nuisance to a god.

3. What's the point anyhow? So even IF your character could do that, why should you? Is it fun for you? I couldn't imagine why ANYONE would want to roleplay murdering a village. *shrug* That's just beyond my understanding - same thing as people "roleplaying" sex with dice-rolls...
Baron ShadowCross Bladesong
-Teir'dal Assassin, Antonious Bayle


- Vaes Bladesong, Briton Tracker, Albion, Guinevere


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The Most Holy One, ShadowCross, First Saviour of the Muffins
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[Llabak Tharr]

*rolls a 00*

That means you swallow, SX!!!!!


*evil cackle* Llabaktharr Gigglegiggler
51 Lawncare Facilitator and gnomosexualizer of da ladies (retired)
And introducing: Heremon, Level 36 Firbolg Bard of Percival
100% socializer 53% explorer 33% achiever 13% killer and 100% lover.
AGM for Camelot, Crusaders of the Realms

Can ya dig it?

[ShadowCross]

Die. ™

[Jhani Vandolay]

I hate when I try to look at someone's html by opening the edit window, when/where I can't edit them. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[DarthEnder]

I'll try and avoid questioning the integrity of roleplaying a mass murderer, and I'll assume that gods in the campaign rarely directly involve themselves in mortal affair(which is the way it SHOULD be in my opinion, otherwise, gods just become tools for GMs to make players do what they want them to do).

You have to deal with the fact that, big stuff like this causes the people in charge over said village to hire or otherwise send people to find you and get rid of you.

A group of high level mages can easily do anything that said "god" would. They could use their magic to find out who did it. Where they are now. And then teleport there and blast you into oblivion.

Then again maybe they can't. Orcs DO wipe out villiages all the time. And sometimes, those orcs don't even get brought to justice.

In fact the more I think about it, theres NOTHING that says you CAN'T do this. I mean, technically, isn't this what players do in a dungeon anyway? 4 or so people going from room to room slaughtering monsters. And those monsters are only assumed to not be defenseless because of natural abilities, or because all members of an orc society have combat training due to the violence present in everyday life.

It's kind of insulting to a person intellegence to say that its okay for good players to wipe out entire communities of evil creatures, but that evil players can't do the same thing in a good community.

[ShadowCross]

There is a small difference (at least for me, but I think I am not the only one):

"Heroes" usually don't slaughter defenseless women, old people and children when they roam through a dungeon and "clear" it. At least I haven't killed a single defenseless person or child (humanoid that is, including orcs etc.., "monsters" like dragons are another case) in over 15 years of RPGing. And yes, I do play evil characters too. But I'd never play (or allow someone to play) a really chaotic evil character.


And on the godly interaction topic: I never said that the gods would appear themselves and act... there are dozens of other ways that a god could act in that situation.. the most likely is probably sending some of his high-level followers/priests/agents, a rare might be sending an avatar.

[DarthEnder]

I usually don't see people slaughtering innocents in dungeons, because almost no GMs bother to but them in.

I've played in alot of games with alot of different GMs, and I can't remember the last time I came across defenseless kobald women and children while walking through a cave.

In fact, EQ is kinda wierd and contrary that way. It has no children in the game for player races because killing children is wrong. And yet, I can walk outside most towns and find things like sarnak hatchlings, gnoll pups, goblin whelps.

It's kinda sick really, and an awful double standard for monsterous humanoids.

[DarthEnder]

Defenseless is also a very relative term.

Most level one peasent npcs can fight better than a kobald from the monsterous manual can.

So given that defenslessness is not simply racial the fact becomes, these people are defenseless because they are what, asleep?

Well, I've not seen very many people who would pass up killing a monster just because it was asleep. In fact, most would see it as a stroke of good luck. To catch a troll unawares? I find it hard to believe you'd pass up a similar opportunity.

[DarthEnder]

And back to the god topic, I don't even believe in the fact that a god would SEE what he did. Or if he did, care.

Gods shouldn't be watching what players do and sending minions after them.

If minions find out about the players actions and decide to go after them out of duty to their gods code, that one thing. Otherwise, how can players hope to compete with the mechinations of gods.

Now, if a a minion asked for his gods intervention, say, but getting to the village and praying in the temple for knowledge of the culprit, and the god answers with that knowledge. Thats okay in my book. Cause it's really the minions action more than the gods action. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 5/12/02 11:50:18 pm

[EZ_Telurinon]

Rent and watch the movie "Flesh and Blood" with Rutger Hauer and Jennifer Jason-Leigh. Basically, a group of mercs take over a castle and badness insues.

If I were GMing and a player wanted to do this, first off I'd know ahead of time that he would be the sort to try it and have measures prepared for the contingency. Most players won't do anything of this sort and those who do generally need a swift kick in the ass because it disrupts the entire game for other players.

Leaving that aside, however...

This character is a high level Rogue/Necromancer. As a necromancer, I make the assumption that he worships, or at least follows an evil god of some sort. If he is perpetrating these actions, his evil god is as likely to notice and take steps to aid him as the good gods are to notice and take action to stop him. Telurinon Aelvenborne, 52nd Rake of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 39th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 25th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

[ShadowCross]

And back to the god topic, I don't even believe in the fact that a god would SEE what he did. Or if he did, care.

Gods shouldn't be watching what players do and sending minions after them.


Raven, that depends on the view you have on gods. If you are sticking with the regular (A)D&D gods, they WILL see it - gods are omnipresent.. they can see anything they want at once, provided it happens on a plane they have power on or one of their followers is present.

Sure, that doesn't mean he will automatically act, but if someone runs around and slaughters a village, town or city where he has got followers or even priest, he WILL act.

An evil god might help to cover the action, but most likely only if he/she feels that there is something to gain from it, e.g. if followers of an enemy god are killed too.


There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way of what could happen... it really depends on the type of game, the GM and the campaign.

[DarthEnder]

My question is then, if when an evil player kills a villiage full of people you expect good god to see and sick a pack of his paladins or outsiders on the guy...

why doesn't the SAME thing happen when an orc tower gets wiped out. Why doesn't Grumnsh send a pack of daemons or blackguards to kill the players?

I also disagree with your interpretations of gods interference. You say that in D&D if you destroy a temple or kill a priest a god WILL act. And I know that is not true of all D&D campaign settings. That might be true in, say, Forgotten Realms, but in others gods act as little more than powersources for cleric unless your party actually travels to other planes. In fact, that is often where most of gods have their attentions and powers focused, the planes.

[DarthEnder]

But then, I'm the evil GM.

We don't usually let people play evil and good characters in the same campaign.

So it falls to me to run the evil campaigns.

Why do we have evil campaigns? Because people LIKE being evil. It's why so many people who play EQ play Dark elves(in theory). Its why World of Darkness is so popular while at the same time having such a @#%$ play system.

I don't know why it always falls to me to run the campaign where everyone plays an orc/hobgoblin/drow/bugbear/half-dragon. They seem to think I have a knack for evil ecologies or something.

[ShadowCross]

why doesn't the SAME thing happen when an orc tower gets wiped out. Why doesn't Grumnsh send a pack of daemons or blackguards to kill the players?

I never said that doesn't happen, did I?
Although one should consider the fact that most evil gods wouldn't act if someone displayed weakness in such a way. It's a common trait of good gods to defend weak and helpless people, while evil gods just laugh at them for their weaknesses.
Gruumsh is just one of those.. he actually weeds out the weak himself...


I also disagree with your interpretations of gods interference. You say that in D&D if you destroy a temple or kill a priest a god WILL act. And I know that is not true of all D&D campaign settings...

Please go back and read my last post. Oh wait, never mind, I'll quote it here:

Quote: There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way of what could happen... it really depends on the type of game, the GM and the campaign.

I don't see why I should discuss that point any more. Either you really didn't read that part of my post or you just ignore it on purpose.

[Caowyth]

Quote: Although one should consider the fact that most evil gods wouldn't act if someone displayed weakness in such a way. It's a common trait of good gods to defend weak and helpless people, while evil gods just laugh at them for their weaknesses.

So what you are saying is that the evil gods are stupid and inherently less powerful than the good gods?

Frankly, most game masters would be so taken aback at what you are proposing doing that they wouldn't know how to respond. They'd either over-react and sick some inexplicable fury upon you (30th lvl retired warrior turned farmer) or use the "Divine retribution" thing.

A good game-master would let you get away with it, and have a very good retribution in mind for you somewhere down the road when you aren't expecting it. Perhaps a good adventuring party swears vengeance upon the person(s) that perpetrated the deed.

Either way, you're asking the gamemaster to completely screw you over if you continue.

Cao

[DarthEnder]

Exactly.

As the Evil GM, it's my job to be prepared for stuff like that, and make sure my evil PCs aren't going to get screwed for doing the equal yet opposite actions of any normal PC adventuring party.

I look back at that, and think that, while in this story, a level 20 rogue is murdering the villiage, it actually would take a lot less to tackle said villiage at night like a party of adventurers. I find most villiages can be cleared by a rounded out party of level 4 players. Much like you'd expect a party of level 4 players to be able to take out an orc tower.

The problem with that is, if any god decides to take a hand against a party of level 4 adventurers, they are pretty much boned. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 5/13/02 1:30:53 pm

[ShadowCross]

So what you are saying is that the evil gods are stupid and inherently less powerful than the good gods?

Nope, I don't. I just say that evil gods would react different to the slaughter of a whole village or tower or whatever than good gods would do.

As an evil god I might try to convert the assassin into my service, either by true faith or with good contracts and such. As a good god I'd probably find a way to bring down justice on the assassin, most likely through the hands of a highly trusted proxy.

[Jhani Vandolay]

I would have to wonder is every single villager really lvl 1 or 0? Of course it's silly to assume every low key village has a retired adventurer, or whatever, but you never know.

Also, someone is likely to notice, as people've said. Maybe this makes them mad, maybe they come bearing employment opportunities.. probably a bit of both. Unless you're safe vs all divinations, you can sneak around all damn day and people will still find you.

And to adress the issue of why evil doesn't reply on the same scale, most of these games make it a point that evil is, in general, much less organized, and much less prone to care about their fellow man/monsters. To a degree, I think this is sort of exaggerated, because if I was an evil mofo with an int over 5, and heroes were running rampant slaying this and arresting that, I'd start to wonder when I was next. But in general, the evil pov seems to be "at least it's not me", while good is considerably more likely to help other, non-related good. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[EZ_Reinerfore]

My DM has had repurcusions on us for doing the 'good thing'. Scorning a big mother dragon got us a village smeared over a few acres of land. I agree with Shadowcross that it really depends on the DM. A good one will think of the repurcusions of raiding that orc village or some such.

[DarthEnder]

Totally, you'd expect a few higher level people in a villiage just like you'd expect there'd be some kind of orc shaman and chief in the orc tower.

But the guy is a level 20 rogue. Even npcs, up to level 10 or so aren't gonna be much of a threat if he catches them sleeping.

[EZ_Arafain]

Quote: (or allow someone to play) a really chaotic evil character.Why not? Especially if the campaign is evil-themed. Players make a great deal out of playing *really* Lawful Good characters...how is that different from playing a REALLY chaotic evil character?

The fact is that any person, PC or NPC, that creates THAT much havoc is going to attract attention and, therefore, trouble - and each threat he eliminates will ensure cumulatively more dangerous and numerous threats in succession. A party of adventurers might decide to track down this fellow, because of all the deaths in the village - then, if they are slain, a powerful connection of at least one of the members is going to take a serious interest in it, and hire a more experienced party with a mage with divination spells in it....and if THAT party should get wiped out, lots of people will become interested....basically, pursuing that sort of path will probably end in a very messy death for your character at the hands of an extremely powerful party that happens to have the proverbial 'bullet with your name on it'. And that's only if the GM decides to stick totally to logical moves and realistic character power limitations.

Personally, though, I'm wondering (a) how you managed to avoid rolling a 1 or other critical failure in all the time you were killing the several dozen/hundred people in the village, (b) exactly what version of D&D you're playing that allows 100% hidden/moving silently (even in 3rd ed you'd max out at +30, even with magical items - which is still not good enough to save you from a natural 20 on a spot or a poor roll). It sounds more than anything like your DM wasn't running you through your paces correctly. -- Veteran Arafain Entreri, 60 Assassin
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Requiem of Souls
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from <u>Red Planet</u>, Robert A. Heinlein[i]

[ShadowCross]

Why? Because I don't want to. Simple as that. Or do I have to justify my personal opinion now? I think not.


even in 3rd ed you'd max out at +30,

How so?

Hide at level 20:
Racial +4 (Halfling)
Ability: +9 (18 natural, 5 raises, +6 item)
Skill ranks: +23 (23 ranks - max allowed)
Circumstance bonus: +10 (e.g. Cloak of Elvenkind)

That's already a bonus of +46, not even counting any bonuses like synergy, insight, luck, competence, inherent...

Or is there a rule somewhere stating that bonuses mustn't be higher than +30? If so, noone I ever came across has heard of it yet... besides, it would be really stupid, as I can already reach +30 easily with just ability and skill boni, not even using anything else.

[Jhani Vandolay]

"It sounds more than anything like your DM wasn't running you through your paces correctly."

Haha, pretty much. I'd love to see a trap.. any trap brought into a situation like that.

Rogue: "But I'm a 20th level rogue, of course I was searching for traps!"

GM: "You said you were spending 5 minutes on each house.. if you like I can adjust the houses you've done based on the time it would take to search The plus side is, your bag of organs will be much, much lighter!"

[DarthEnder]

No one is saying your opinion is wrong SX, we're simply discussing the pros and cons of various GM styles.

As for the idea that a chaotic evil player eventually meets his end at the hands of a powerful party, well, I don't think thats nessecarily the case.

After all, isn't that what happens to good parties. The GM throws stronger and stronger enemies at them. But the players are getting stronger too. Your expected to be fighting things that will be a challange to you. Is it a foregone conclusion that eventually the enemies sent against the players will eventually overwhelm the party? No. Cause that would be unfair to the players.

Basically, do I think people would come after the evil rogue, yes. Do I think he should have no chance of escaping or overcoming those who come after him? no.

[EZ_Matheren]

our GMs would do one of three things, depending on who was running the game:

gm #1, the best but sadly in florida now - "a bunch of drow warrior monks that're 10 levels above you come in and knock you out in one attack that you can't save against."

gm #2, the now-marine in japan - "you kill the village, and find a couple holy avengers, and a well that acts as a gigantic bag of holding that you can pretty much find any weapon you want in as long as you can think it up."

gm #3, the one we don't like - "oh yeah, that six year old you were sneaking up on is a level 25 fighter. you're dead. I don't care if it's impossible and makes no sense, you're dead because I'm having a competition with you."

[EZ_Swipey]

The level of divine intervention I was talking about was on the level of having the cleric's spells work. No divine presence, no avatars, no extra-planar minions. Just having the divination spells work would put some serious hurt on the village-slayer.

As to why those orcs dont get in trouble if they raid a village, who says they dont? The local lord rounds up his posse and heads out to conduct a reprisal raid on one of their villages. Sometimes thsee things escalate into a wars too. The other thing is that orcs dont raid "safe" areas. If the village is on the marches and gets wiped, thats just the way it works in the borderlands. If a village deep in the interior does, that draws a lot more attention.

Now, I havent looked at 3rd edition, but judging from previous editions, ONE high level warrior can face down hundreds of regular soldier level foes in open battle. He can likely kill every soldier who gets close enough to hit him before that soldier has time to swing more than once. The soldiers need a 20 to hit. Hence, 20 soldiers will get one hit before theyre all killed. the hit will do 1d8, or 4.5 hp. 400 soldiers will get 20 hits, doing 90 HP to the warrior. And it would take a pretty wimpy 18 warrior to have less than 90 hp. This is assuming the 400 soldiers somehow manage to maintain morale too.

I cant think of any (good) fiction where one man can face 400 in an open field and win. Why would anyone maintain armies in such a world?

Anyway. Lawfuls, good or evil, tend to work and play well with others. Chaotics dont. The good Chaotics at least have their heart in the right place so others tend to be forgiving with them. Evil Chaotics just tend to make enemies and live short exciting lives (emphasis on short)

[ShadowCross]

Wouldn't happen in 3rd edition.

Take a horde of low levels (a dozen or maybe 2) and they'll kill the highlevel for sure.
How? They'd swarm him and try to tackle, grap, disarm or pin him and once he is held by at least one or 2 people others would move in and finish him off with a coup-de-grace.

Sure, it's hard for them to grap/hold him, but at least one will manage before all are dead.

[EZ_Kintire]

Chaotic Evil people tend to crash and burn. At least, the kind that wipes out whole villages do. Also, they don't travel in 'parties' or not for long, which makes them more vulnerable.

Successful evil involves looking good.

Not that I'd know.....

[EZ_Prenn]

SX, I remember someone whining about a lvl20 warrior being able to be immobilized by a lvl1 goblin if he fails his save... is that the case? <u>Pren, Human Master</u> on The Tribunal Server
We came to drop bombs
Callin' every man in the arms
And yo, sound to your law
Smartbomb

Mithril heart Brigade

[Caowyth]

Evil parties last until someone utters the ill-fated words "Oh yeah?!!"

Cao

[ShadowCross]

Prenn, sort of... it's not a save, but rather an opposed roll. But theoratically, a level 1 goblin could pin down a level 20 warrior.. if the goblin rolls a 20 and the warrior a 1 and if there are certain circumanstances in favor of the goblin I guess. Not sure about the actual numbers required right now though.

[DarthEnder]

The only problem I have with that mob situation is it's totally innaccurate most of the time.

Almost NOBODY is willing to rush an armed opponent. Because everybody knows in the back of their mind, that the first person who tries to grab him is dead. Period. And as such, most aren't willing to be that first person. Even if they know that the mob will win if they do it, they aren't willing to throw thier own life away to accomplish that goal.

Yes, in 3rd edition, its the most logical plan of action, from a gameplay standpoint. However, from a logic and roleplaying standpoint, unless you are dealing with fanatics or an actual frenzied mob it shouldn't go down like that.

[DarthEnder]

Plus, whirlwind attack feat is great for mobs cause your melee attacks hit everyone in 5 feet.

[EZ_Kintire]

Yes, thats all very well Darkangel, but REALISTICALLY, no warrior, however skilled, can defeat 400 opponents at once either. You can bring in one bit of 'realism' and ignore all the other bits or it just gets silly.

[EZ_Swipey]

Realisitically what will make the 400 soldiers able to defeat the legendary warrior is the same thing that lets a wolfpack bring down an Elk. Coordinated attacks and exhaustion on the part of the Elk. The guys in front distract and fight defensively (dodge/block/parry) while the guys on the flanks and rear "go for the hamstrings"

As I recall, the bonus for being behind an alert opponent is only +2 in D&amp;D, and you avoid any AC gained by the shield. I think there are skills that allow the defender to negate the behind bonus too, arent there?

Another interesting concept, which was worked into the rolemaster system's tables, and is in EQ (or so we're told) is that one's Defence is a combination of Avoidance and Mitigation of damage. D&amp;D lumps these together in a single stat (AC). Really it should be pretty easy to hit a man in Full Plate, though, shouldnt it? Hitting him hard enough, or in a soft enough spot to do damage is another story though. But if your aim isnt to immediately do damage, but instead to modify or control the target's movement, that roll to hit should be about as easy as hitting an unarmored man, easier even if the target's armor encumbers him.

But I guess it isnt heroic to have the protagonist pulled down by a mob of ants, so such rules dont make for a good RPG

[Llabak Tharr]

With great cleave feat (which allows an extra attack if you one-shot an opponent), and attacks of opportunity, it is entirely reasonable for even a level 10 fighter to kill any number of 1hd monsters.

Each time one comes within his 'zone of control' he gets an attack of opportunity on them, so none would ever get him pinned

[EZ_Swipey]

It would seem that within the D&amp;D framework the logical thing for 1 HD (and less) monsters to do then would be to have everyone equip a ranged weapon. Surely the Stephen Hawking of Orcs can figure this one out and pass the idea on to the rest.

400 Orcs with Shortbows = 800 attacks/round = 40 hits a round = 40d6 dmg = 140 hp/round = Dead Warrior.

Thats what happened to Boromir, after he "great cleaved" all the orcs who got into melee range with him. (book, not movie)

But then again, imagine how most players would howl should the orcs do this!

We won't even mention the kobold tribe that equips everyone with a ceramic jar full of oil, a resin soaked rag to tie to it, and the means to light it....

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

I've never played a packaged campaign. All my experience with AD&D has been with player constructed scenarios. I played in a few scenarios were 6 chararcters stood ground against a hundred orcs or gnolls.

If I were to Master a similar situation, I'd take into account the bodies piling up and the blood soaking the ground. Not suddenly spring it on the players. Just a "you notice the ground getting squishy" or "three gnolls are climbing over the four foot high pile of their kins bodies to your north while six more are running around the eastern side of the pile.

Also, sooner or later, one or two of them will attempt to grapple. I haven't looked at 3rd edition rules but, grappling is a whole different animal from melee.

Back to the original post. Yes a chaotic evil character, with a history of viciousness, might decide to lay waste to an entire village. And yes, such an action would have consequences. What those consequences would be are always at the descrection of the most powerful god in the campaign, the GM.

GM's always have to strive to balance the game. Too hard or too vendictive, the GM will lose players to frustration. Too easy or too generous, the GM will lose players to lack of interest.

Some of the best times my players had was during the end of my first period as a GM (called it DM at the time). I would keep them alive if possible by playing a little loose with the unconcious/bleeding/banageing rules. This would mean an extended period of rest while a comatose player recovered and maybe the loss of a consitution point.

But, for players that had been running characters in the twenties and had aquired great amounts of loot, the thrill of just surviving in a new campaign was truly exciting for them.

That's the great thing about being Game Master. It's seeing the result of your skill at constructing and running the campaign in the faces of those who are experiencing it thru their own imaginations. Kinda like being an author and a storyteller, I guess.

[Caowyth]

In our system, to add a bit more threat to some combats, we invoked the following rule:

Any roll of 18-20 is a hit, with a 20 being a crit only if it would have hit anyways.

Any roll of 1-3 is a miss, with a 1 being a fumble only if it would have missed anyways.

Thus, a large number of low HD creatures can and will eventually wear down a heavily armed and armored single opponent.

Cao

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

I seem to recall that in E3, you can only make ONE attack of opportunity per round.

There are also restrictions to the Whirlwind Feat, the most relevant one in this instance is the number of strikes you can make is equal to your level. Obviously, this makes for LARGE theoretical numbers of attacks for high-level characters, but there are also restrictions on the number of creatures that can engage a single target. I believe a medium-sized target (i.e., a typical adventurer) can only be attacked by six or eight enemies at one time.

Even a 20th level fighter is going to fall to a "zergling rush". Rules for grappling and subdual are substantially different than regular melee. If memory serves, the DC for grapple attacks is 10+Dexterity bonus (could be wrong here, but it makes sense to my sleep-needing mind). Said fighter may be able to shake off the first four or five kobolds, he will eventually be overwhelmed and brought down. Assuming, of course, that the attackers are stupid enough to engage in melee. Even kobolds can use bows.

As mentioned repeatedly above, it comes down to the skill of the individual game master. Sure, a very high level chararcter will be able to take out an almost obscene number of one or two hit-die attackers. Heck, he may well overcome a force of fifteen or twenty - but 400 is an ARMY. No way a single fighter - I don't care what level he is - is going to take down an entire ARMY on his own.

On the subject of playing evil:

It's been my experience in 20 years of tabletop gaming that people don't like to play evil characters as a matter of course. Sure, it's nice as a diversion, but folks generally want to be the hero. Heck, even Elric did right more often than not (albiet for the wrong reasons).

White Wolf's World of Darkness is NOT geared toward role-playing evil. Of all the varying facets, only in Vampire are the players inherantly tainted. Even so, if you play the game as it is written, the players struggle against their natures and against the twisted Kindred society - "their heroic deeds shine all the brighter for the darkness within them."

Hm.

I seem to have lost the point I was trying to make. I think I'll try again after I get some sleep... :/ Kehvrynne Quickblade, Professional Damsel of Distress
No matter how subtle the wizard, a dirk between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

Did some checking this morning, and I was way off on the Whirlwind Attack! There is no limit to the number of attacks you can make, but all targets must be within 5 feet. Of course, you only get ONE attack per opponent...
Kehvrynne Quickblade, Professional Damsel of Distress
No matter how subtle the wizard, a dirk between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.

[DarthEnder]

Actually, due to limitations on the number of people that can attack a person in melee at once, the only thing keeping a ledgendary warrior from killing a 400 monster army of monsters that behave as they are supposed to is fatigue.

If one assumes the warrior is tireless(which some GMs make the mistake of not keeping track of) I would not be surprised to see the warrior win. After all, they CAN'T kill him 6 at a time. And they CAN'T get more than 6 on him at once.

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

As always it depends on the GM as to whether it is possible or not.

Here are three things he can add to the mix. Fatigue, Ground conditions, and Grappling.

Fatigue. "You miss this attack round, because your sword arm is getting tired."

Ground conditions. "You've slipped on the blood and guts of the fifty slain orcs that lay at your feet. Roll half your dex or less to see if you've fallen to one knee and lose your agility bonus to AC and your attack for this round."

Grappling. Unlike the characters in the average martial arts movie, the npc's will sooner or later try gang tackling rather than straight up melee. "After seeing their comrades fail by trying to strike you, the gnoll leader commands his troops to rush you and attempt to grapple."

heh. Almost makes me want to get a campaign together.

[EZ_Swipey]

Ultimately what really matters, I guess, is that the players and the GM be on the same page as far as the relative importance/power of the PCs in the campaign.

If everyone agrees that the PCs place in the world is one of vast power, that kings tremble at the rumor of their approach and even the heavens treat them respectfully, that works. Not my personal favorite campaign style, but to each their own.

Problems usually appear when the GM envisions a lesser place for the PCs than the players do, and does a poor job of communicating this, by repeatedly trying to put the players in their place via in game trouncings.

[EZ_Arafain]

Also, with regard to attacks of opportunity as monsters enter your zone of control...

You don't get an attack of opportunity on any creature that runs right up to you. Only if they run PAST you or another mitigating circumstance. Otherwise you could never attack any kind of monster with a ten-foot reach - he'd just stay five feet away from you and keep attacking you, and if someone else tried to close with him in melee, he'd get an attack of opportunity before they ever came close. Rather nasty with trolls, who have a ten-foot reach and a rend attack. -- Veteran Arafain Entreri, 60 Assassin
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from <u>Red Planet</u>, Robert A. Heinlein[i]

[EZ_Kataliya]

This sort of situation requires ALOT of discression by the GM.

I was GM'ing once, and one of my players (a necro) got the bright idea to wipe out a small hamlet. I didn't like the idea, and tried to discourage it. He persisted, so this is what I came up with. Tit was a LONG campagin, and worked out quite nicely if I do say so myself! hehe

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The village was under the protection of a local duke, of modest means and influence, but great ambition. He had been skimming off the top of taxes and tariffs a percent to fund his own bribes to further his own political agenda, and would then send the expected ammount to HIS own Lord, a noble and just man. The Duke was compacient with his own cleverness having purchased all officials involved, and believed his embezzling scheme safe from discovery by his Lord.

Enter his Lady Wife. A stong woman, willful and resourcful, who resented her husband's regard of her as a "trophy" and of their marriage as a political neccessity. The dutchess had, of course, full knowledge of her husband's scheming, and exerted what little power she had, covertly, to ease the suffering of the serfs of her dutchy.

News of the massacre of 90-some people within his lands upset the duke, but more becasue it drew attention of his Lord and meant a reduction in his own coffers than becasue of the loss of innocent life. In responce, the duke launched an "investigation" to seek out the perpetrator which would of course, not be much of an investigation at all. An inspector from the Lord would arrive, be schmoozed, and would return to the Lord with reports that the duke was conducting his own thorough investigation and would bring the murderers to justice

Unbeknownst to the duke (and my soon-to-be regretful player), the hamlet was the birthplace of his Lady's handmaiden; her closest friend and most trusted confidant. Amongst the victims were every single living relative of the Lady's maid.

When the Lord's inspector arrived, the dutchess cornerd her husband and revealed her knowledge of his embezzling operation, and threatened to expose him to the inspector should the duke not hunt down the murders, and should he kill HER, letters would be sent to the Lord revealign everything.

The Duke, fearing for his office AND his head, channeled all of his resources (including those he'd been stealing from the taxes) into hunting down my murdersome player and bringing him to justice.

---------------------------------------------

SO, what happened? I involved my players in the story and let them discover all the subplots. THEN they got to (all good characters) participate in the hunt. hehe It was quite a lengthy chase, and VERY fun. The murdering necromancer was captured and deliverd to the Lord broken in places (hehe), but alive. He met his demise some time later, the result of exposure to the hot summer sun, on public display, while hanging in a cage that negated any casting by the victim inside.

My "good" players had a jolly time hunting the evil bastard down. hehe I did give him a few chances to escape death, but the dice didn't like him that weekend. lol

It was probably one of our most fun weekends. Well, fun for all but our necro. He was pissed becasue the character was pretty high-level, and was a few years old. lol HOWEVER, I thought it was poetic justice, becasue no act of great consequence can escape reaction, good or ill.

If your gaming group has the apropriate players, I'd suggest giving this story a try. We all had a blast. =)




Edit: Please read our sig/personal pic rules. - ShadowCross

Edit: My bad. Sorry. Won't happen again. - Kat Edited by: Kataliya at: 5/21/02 11:11:14 am

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

Well done!

[EZ_Swipey]

Yes, well done, and a very good point! Especially in a small dutchy, theres pretty good odds that at least one of the 90 villagers is important to someone else in the dutchy who in turn has the ear of somone powerful.