3rd Edition Wizards, something Rottin in Denmark?

[Krimzan]

I was working on my vilian last night, who I wanted to be a gnomish wizard/shadow adept (Forgotten Realms) and I realized...wizards suck. They get less spells per day then Sorcerers, and they have to assign spells. I had always thought of Sorcs to be more of battle-mages. They don't know a lot of spells, so they usually pick the damage ones and the most "useful" spells. (Of course then there's the ever-present "Well I'll be damned, I don't have dispel magic...") But the level 16 wizard I made has 6 level 1 spells per day...4 base, 2 bonus. That just doesn't seem right, a big hook in the story is finding his spellbooks, so he had to be a wizard. Being the DM, I just decided I'd double the number of spells per day he could cast (double the base, bonus spells don't count). So he's now up to 8 a day, which seems to be much more up to par, especially for a evil wizard who could be caught alone by the party and will have to fend them off long enough to make his escape.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Just for a quick reference:

Level 20 Wizard: Per day, 4 spells each level, 0-9 (Yes, 4)

Level 20 Sorcerer: Per day, 6 each level, 0-9
Known: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

Now granted the wizard can know any number of spells in his books, but realistically speaking, wizards get the shaft I think.

Let me know what you all think Krimzan Anklestabber
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[EZ_Turlo]

There are significant differences between the way to the two classes would work compared to one another. But first, let's review a few areas that you forgot to cover.

Int Bonus for spells (Wizards only, as the Sorcerer class are affected by Charisma) Since this is a wizard, it is most likely they are starting with 18 INT. A sorcerer would have a CHA of 18. Now, since they are level 20, that is 5 additional ability points they would gain over level (one every 4 levels starting at 4th). So, there modified INT is 23 (CHA if Sorcerer).

Spells per Level:
Wiz - 4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4
Sor - 6/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6

In addition, wizards get bonus feats as they advance in level. They can also prepare scrolls. Sorcerers do not have those abilities (other then those gained by straight character level).

The most important difference between the two is access to spells. Sorcerers have a very strict limitation on the amount of spells they have at their fingertips. You mentioned they would just pick all the damage ones and the most "useful" ones...well, they don't really have that choice. The TOTAL number of spells they can have are:

Sorc - 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Wiz - Unlimited

How are you treating this? If it is a true villian, go wizard all the way. I'll explain more in a bit. If its a single fight, with no reoccurring story line or build up...go sorcerer.

Because of the limitation of sorcerers, they are severely handicapped when it comes to the long term gain wizards can have over them. Clairvoyance, Far Seeing, etc. can give a caster an extreme edge over an advancing party. The villain could effectively have every spell at his disposal, with the spellbooks cleverly hidden away where only he knows.

Finally, take a look at the feats. A wizard gets significantly more then a sorcerer (5 to be exact at 20th level). Even at 1st level, the wizard can prepare scrolls to read in combat. A sorcerer cannot. Oh well, enough of my rambling.

T.

[Krimzan]

All that has crossed my mind, and that's why I am going Wizard...a few things I did though. First off I rolled his scores using the 4d6 method, so he has normal scores, so his int isn't all that high. I want these NPCs to be equal to PCs in most respects. The whole background behind how this character gets into it is the PCs finding one of his spellbooks, and as soon as the wizard opens it, he reads the inscription on the inside which reads: "Property of Jebaddo Drimflocker. Don't find me, I'll find you..." And so he is introduced. He's not this amazingly powerful and evil arch-villian. He's a charming little guy, who would be a great friend if he wasn't evil.

I feel like doubling the spells may be a bit overpowering, I'm going to have to adjust it probably, but I mean...a level 20 wizard who can cast like 5 cantrips and that's all for that day (for cantrips)...at that level of study, he should be able to wave them off without thinking about them I would hope. The only thing I know is that there must be something that I'm not thinking of, because a lot of time was spent balancing the classes, and it was done by people with much more D&D experience then I'll probably ever have.

[DarthEnder]

What rules variant do you play with Turlo that your wizards probably have 18 ints?

I've hardly ever seen anyone roll even one 18 for a character using 4D6 per stat.

[EZ_Arafain]

You've obviously never played with my best friend, then.

Using the 4d6 method, he rolled two seperate characters on two seperate occasions that both had ALL stats over 14 and at least two 18s in their stats.

His dice are ungodly. -- Veteran Arafain Entreri, 60 Assassin
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from <u>Red Planet</u>, Robert A. Heinlein[i]

[EZ_Telurinon]

Sorcerers are great one shot encounter monsters. They are difficult to play as a PC and tend to make less than satisfying arch-villains. Frankly, the limited number of spells known coupled with poor skill and feat growth make for a very one dimensional character.

In our campaign, Sorcerers get 4 skill points/level as opposed to 2, and have a few additional skills as class skills to help offset this.

You might even think that raw power wise a wizard would come up short of a sorcerer, but if you take two equal level characters and duel them intelligently, you'll see that the wizard will usually win. Why? Even though the Sorcerer can toss more spells during a day, a Wizard can customise his spell list to his opponent. So, if a sorcerer uses mostly fire spells, the wizard can memorize Fire Shield to negate all fire damage. Sorcerer summons things? Wizard uses Protection From .

The most annoying form of Sorcerer is the anti-caster. This is a sorcerer with Improved Counterspell who uses his spells per day to eliminate the offensive potention of enemy spell casters. With the large number of spells per day, a sorcerer used this way can have a tremendous effect on a battle. Telurinon Aelvenborne, 52nd Rake of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 39th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 25th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

E3 wizards aren't any worse off than wizards have ever been. Low levels (i.e., 1 to 12) have always been hell for finger-wigglers in D&amp;D. In a lot of ways, they're more difficult to play than rogues...

As far as the limits of sorcerers, I think you're taking a rather one-dimension view. A bit of spontaneous magic can go a long way - combat mage, a rogue with a little something up his sleeve, a fighter with a little extra long-range kick.

There's a LOT more to a good villain than offensive might. The best villains rarely - if ever - end up toe to toe until the very end, yet have no problem causing trouble for our intrepid heros. Kehvrynne Quickblade, Professional Damsel of Distress
No matter how subtle the wizard, a dirk between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.

[DarthEnder]

More likely loaded than godly Ara.

[EZ_Arafain]

Nope. I was there when he bought them (we have been best friends for seven years now, do damn near everything as a pair) and I roll them myself on occasion. They roll perfectly normally for me, but make all sorts of max rolls for him.

[EZ_kiyotee]

After playinga sorceror/thief since 3rd edition came outpretty much i can safely say they make a WONDERFUL secondary class particularly combined with rogue or monk, but as a primary you quickly face the shortcomings. ESPECIALLY if you have any ideas about taking any of the item creation feats. your limited choice in spells quickly becomes a burden, you aren't nearly as versatile as I had origionally thought they would be since they don't have to assign there spells.

Also in our campaigns we used a variant rule where a wizard could change a spell slot to one particular spell from whichever school they focused in much like clerics can do with healing.

So an illusionist can spontaneously cast blur instead of that magic missile he had memorized. the spontaneously cast spell of course was assigned at character creation and had to be DM approved but it really lended itself to the idea of a wizard who developed a real familiaity with a certain spell. __________________________________________________ __________
Yes this is Kroe Magnon, I'm sick of switching accounts for each board. ;)

[EZ_namelessshaman]

Don't forget, your 16th level wizard is going to have equipment of a 16th level npc, and a lot of the firepower can come from items. Items can also give extra options or firepower without flat out giving extra spells slots.
Of course, you have to be careful giving out items, becuase the pc's end up with them... making charged items somewhat more handy...

wand of 10th level dispel magic ,10d6 fireball, or 10d6 lightning bolt are only 22,500 gp, and can give the caster extra firepower 9th level magic missile wand (5d4+5) should be 6,750gp

A ring of spell storing can hold a spell he might not otherwise have, or ring of wizardry can boost spell slots going that route.

personally I do find sorcerors easier for one shot encounters, and wizards for more lengthy plotlines. mileage may vary

[EZ_CredosFarr]

I think that wizards are a bit weaker when looking at the numbers alone; however, when played properly a wizard can definately overcome this. Also keep in mind all skill points come from INT which helps the wizard alot. The extra feats allow for the wizard to take non-spell related feats with their regular feats. IE expertise or some such. To beef up your NPC wizard i suggest certain feat choices. Spell focus would be 1st, also consider specializing. With these and a good +INT item you could make the saves versus his spells very difficult indeed. Finally the issue of clairvoyance etc. assume he knows the pcs are coming and is prepared. Have Mage armor, shield, haste, minor globe of invulnerability, Iron skin, etc cast on himself in advance (scrolls or potions here). This will make your mage a true challenge for any party.

Big rule of thumb here is "The difficulty of the encounter is directly related to how Intelligent the NPC's are roleplayed."

Nueman, 53rd Rogue of E'Ci and long time DM