seeking help on evil parties

[EZ_bugoo]

Hey all my group is thinkin of starting a campian with all evil characters and i'm lookin for some material to help me with this, like race statistics, differant classes, etc...

thanks if anyone knows of any sources, i've been searching and cant find any.

[DarthEnder]

Monsterous Manual gives you the stats on the monsters, the DM guide tells you how to convert monster stats over to players.

[ShadowCross]

Dungeon Master's Guide also has at least 2-3 prestige classes that might be of interest - Assassin, Shadowdancer, Blackguard... ShadowCross Bladesong
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[EZ_bugoo]

right, although i was looking for a bit more in the class area, any scenerios, stuff like that, or for someone with experiance with running an evil campain.

[Caowyth]

I'd suggest that the party stay lawful (Meaning organized) in the evil department. Unless you have the perfect batch of players they'll start knocking each other off unless there's a strong type to keep them in line.

Cao

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

Actually, running an evil campaign is very similar to running a good campaign - just look at things from the other end of things.

I know - it sounds overly simplistic, but think about it. Instead of rescuing the princess, uncovering the plot, and preventing the war, you get to kidnap her, plant the misleading clues, assassinate her at the right time, and - if you're ambitious enough - take over what you please as the two nations are killing themselves off. Alternately you can take a more subtle track and play out the good guys go bad sort of story line. (Shoot me if you like, but I'm still fresh from Episode II ) I believe the First Edition Dungeon Master's Guide has more ideas for running evil campaigns. Give me a day or so to check that...

For races, it's probably easier to start out with humans, half-elves, half-orcs, and possibly gnomes or halflings. A good player might be able to pull off an evil dwarf, but going with exotics like dark elves and deep gnomes might be a bit much unless you have ready access to existing source material. Quite a bit of information on the Underdark exists for the Second Edition Forgotten Realms setting if you don't mind looking around a bit.

As Caowyth said, definitely stick with mostly lawful or neutral evil characters. These alignments are used to working toward a common goal. One chaotic evil character will be difficult to deal with unless you have a strong leader. Even then you can expect the chaotic evil character to attempt to assume control of the group at the first opportunity. If you're comfortable with dealing more with group dynamics rather than focusing primarily on a storyline, you might want to try allowing more chaotic evil characters to the mix...

Most classes listed in the Player's Handbook are fine. Evil gods have their clerics, mages and sorcerers pursue their own ends to personal power, fighters take what they want by right of might, and may even be chosen by a dark god as an anti-paladin (should the GM allow it). Bards seek to attain a position of influence over a noble, becoming the power behind the throne. Thieves... well, duh

Just something to keep in mind about evil characters: regardless of the end goal, they are always on the lookout for Number One. When push comes to shove, they will leave the others to take the heat unless held together by a strong leader or an extensive common background. I'd recommend the latter. Loyalty is something lawful evil characters understand and appreciate, but only as long as it can be exploited. Kehvrynne Quickblade, Professional Damsel of Distress
No matter how subtle the wizard, a dirk between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.

[DarthEnder]

Be more specific with what you want to know Bug.

[EZ_bugoo]

I do have access to the forgoten realms book, so that would help.

I guess the i'm not really sure what i'm looking for, I guess the biggest thing is an adventure or two to help get the dice rolling and to innitiate us all into the evil side of things. That and I would prefer to have it start in the underdark, but surface would be fine. And race wise i'd love to have trolls, drow, dark dwarves, illitiads, vampire/undead, hobgoblin, something really differant. I guess the biggest thing i'm lookin for is a good campain setting (forgoten realms would work fine though) and a few adventures to help get it started, but you all have sparked a few ideas in my head already, thanks!

[EZ_Swipey]

hmm.. is the party going to be heterogeneous, or homogeneous? A heterogeneous party will have more trouble justifying and maintaining cohesion. If theyre all dark elves, or vampires, or undead, thats good. But how will dark elves, ones immersed in their own culture of superiority, for example, treat others? Not well. Which will cause in party dissention and possibly players killing eachother. Unless thats what the killed player signed on for, he or she wont enjoy it.

Traditionally thats why chaotics, and especially chaotic evils, tend to never be great powers. They dont work and play well with others. They do OK if they have a strong leader, but players wont like having someone placed above them, especially another player. A possibility would be to set up the party as a "special ops" team for some major (largely offscreen) badguy. In party murder is kept to a minimum for fear of the consequences when the big bad boss calls the party in for a debriefing. Raging_Warlord_01 : "He wasn't YOURS to kill, maggot! He was MINE to use! And now I cant, because of YOU..."

Such a "special ops team" setup can be used to overcome a lot of the inherent friction that comes up in heterogeneous groups. The dark elf may think the troll is little more than an animal, and the wight may look at the DE as a snack (mmm... levels!) but all of them will restrain themselves far enough to work together, for fear of the boss. It also allows you to avoid a lot of "how they meet" rigamorole. Tell each player to make a character with a connection to the boss, and the boss can then connect them to eachother, no matter how disparate they are.

Every adventure doesnt have to be a BossOp either. The first, if it goes well, will act as enough to get the PCs together. If the Boss has no missions for them, they can easily get in trouble on their own, and now not just by themselves.

Eventually, of course, the Bosses plans, for which the PCs are just catspaws and bagmen, will get the PCs in trouble with other bosses. The Boss may even decide to send them into too much trouble (ie intentionally get them killed) if they seem to be growing in power enough to challenge his authority. Just because you establish the "Special Ops Team" model to start with doenst, of course, mean you have to keep it.

[EZ_Arafain]

A party of mostly Lawful Evils and Neutral Evils tends to make for some very interesting campaigning. -- Veteran Arafain Entreri, 60 Assassin
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from <u>Red Planet</u>, Robert A. Heinlein[i]

[EZ_kiyotee]

there is a d20 rule book out now called Evil or something like it that runs you through how to run evil characters. It even includes campaign hooks for evil characters (the book is worht it for comedy's sake if nothing else) I'll have to look arounsd the net for it, but it has some pretty good ideas (as well as having a cheerfully twisted sense of humor) it's done by the peopel who also put out a book about undead, and a book about dragons, sorry I can't be more specific yet.


edit: here a few links “While heroes are busy dreaming, we’re conquering nations"

www.alderac.com/d20/ check halfway down the page.

www.newwavegames.com/rpg/...e8501.html

www.d20zines.com/criticsc...041502.htm
plenty more just do a web search on d20 evil sourcebook


__________________________________________________ __________
Yes this is Kroe Magnon, I'm sick of switching accounts for each board. ;)Edited by: kiyotee at: 5/30/02 12:00:27 pm

[EZ_Cordo Crowfoot]

The most critical thing is to create a good reason for them to be working together, otherwise it more easily dissolves into distrust, bickering, and backstabbing.

This can be:

1) Everyone is lawful evil and there is an accepted "pecking order" within the party
2) Although they are evil in their methods, they are all friends and are the only people in the harsh world that they are sure they can count on
3) They have a powerful patron they are all afraid of
4) They have a strong motive (i.e. revenge on someone who has wronged them) that allows them to subsume any internal conflict until their goal is accomplished

I used 3 &amp; 4 in my own evil PC campaign. Notes on the first three sessions are here... the campaign is now on hiatus as the central character is moving away... a lesson not to base too much on one character.

Go to here to read campaign logs if you are interested (make sure to select "Show messages from the past 120 days")

www.thegamehub.com/forum/...s+campaign

[EZ_Acobar]

One of the most fun campaigns I was ever in was in a party of evil-doers. Lots of plotting, sometimes bickering, and the really hot anti-paladin (female char - cha = 19) to smack everyone back in line.

I think we were all destined to become submissives for her S&amp;M

[EZ_Aleana Soulmender]

Ravenloft was a fun place to DM a Evil game =)

[DarthEnder]

Well, maybe I could tell you what my current party of Evil PCs is running.

We have one Hobgoblin Ranger.

One Half-Dragon/Hobgoblin Sorcerer.

One Blue(thats a psionic goblin) Psionic Knight

And one Elven Wizard(regular High Elf, but demented, and masqerading as a drow for campaign smoothness).



Right now, the group is trying to establish a hideout/outpost for their Hobgoblin tribe in a Commonlands type region.

They have a few NPC goblins are "hireling" types, and are basically going about in "marauder" fashion. i.e. they don't build a lair, they find something elses lair, kill it, and move in.

When the last session ended, they were ass deep in a ruined tower that a necromancer was using for a hideout.

[DarthEnder]

I agree with Cordo about cohesion though. I go with the "powerful patron they are all afraid of" route.

I find goblinoids to also be very accepting of other goblinoids as well, so party make up isn't usually a problem(except for the elf, but he's like "Ambassador D'vinn" in Crushbone, supposedly an emmisary of the Drow. He's not, but it's not something thats easy to check up on anyway)

[EZ_Medixx]

Hi there, I have played D&amp;D for over 20 years now and the people I have played with tend towards Evil characteres quite often. The easiest way to make for an interesting encounter is to have the party brawl each other at the end of a module. Usually this will happen on its own without DM interference provided the players are sort of greedy. Just toss some kick arse magic item in at the end like "The Helm of Flamefire" (Player now has the breathweapon of a red dragon 1/day) or whatever suits your taste and campaign. Watch as the players struggle to decide who gets it, usually there will be people willing to brawl over it. After the fight to the death you now have something substantial to base your campaign on..inter-party rivalry!

Enjoy...
Sincerely
DM of 20+ years experience.

PS: Te above only reflects one possible idea of the limitless possibility that is D&amp;D.

[EZ_Kintire]

I do not personally enjoy too much intra party strife. Too much PC death results in shallow characters and little plot continuity or development. Go with the reasons to stick together!

One thing to note about Evil, and I have played a few in otherwise good campaigns, is that subtlety is really where its at. Evil does not have to mean maniacal laughter. Friendly, helpful, trustable.... these are the qualities of the successful evildoer. Take a look at Darth Maul. Now take a look at Palpatine. Which one of these two is going to be Emperor of the Galaxy?

Be insidious. Be persuasive. Appear to be Good. Do good things... where people can see. Become above reproach. They'll never realise you are in charge until too late..... and if you play it right, not even then!

[Elerion]

"Decieving is a lot like boiling a frog. Drop the frog into scalding water, and it will jump right out of the pan. If you on the other hand start with cool water, then heat it slowly, the frog will never notice. With deceit, it works the same way. Start with the small, completely believable lies, and work you way up"

Unprecise quote - "The Mind Game" by Hector MacDonald. Eeeeexcellent book.

[EZ_GoatsAndGippos]

The only campaigns ive ever run have been evil. Thats just the way my players tend towards. (were all highschoolers if that gives you any hint why we tend to be evil). Right now i have a Gnome Barbarian/Illusionist, a Half-Drow Rogue/Assassian, a Human Sorcerer, a Half-Elven Monk and a Half-Orc Barbarian/Cleric. Most are Chaotic Evil and its really hard keeping them from killing each other. A campaign log is at my D&amp;D website www.geocities.com/mattsdnd but anyway i keep them in line best i can by having them all work for the church of bane and if they kill each other the church will contact there dead spirits to verify what really happened if they knocked one another off. Although "Ninja @#%$" did slay Ginsu(the most problematic player"- would try to kill other players ALWAYS question me and whine whine whine, ok rant off) when he quit to go play genesis.

[Brelkor]

The key to running evil campaigns is controlling greed. Players cannot get too greedy and work against each other, else no one has fun.

A key concept to help avoid this is making sure your evil players are part of an organized faction that has rules and deadly enforcement of the rules. And, if they don't want to start out as part of a bad guy organization like the Zhentarim(sp) you should make it clear that they will either need to be very careful or join up. Its always good to have someone the party works for, a boss. Should probly never be the big boss, if you know what i mean.

Also, when your players are climbing the ladder of evil, make sure they are well effected by the lesser evil beings beneath them (dog eat dog sorta thing).

Have a good purpose to being evil. Players can get a lot of kicks out of just doing things they can't do in real life (e.g. sick fantasy) but i would curb this as much as possible. One way is to make sure they are always busy and probably need to keep a low profile, unless the job calls for general mayhem. The starting a war theme is a good idea.

Don't make the good guys too strong or too weak. This may be the hardest part. I've made both mistakes and they ruined the game if you ask me. Too powerful good guys demoralize the players because they get the feeling you are unfairly making sure the 'good always wins' thing happens. Too weak of good guys makes you players so bludthirsty they become hard to control.

Remember that the good guys never want to outright kill the bad guys unless its a pitched battle. Good guys are all about taking prisoners and that silly thing called justice. Justice systems are always fallable.

Bad characters always want to go after the big names in the realm. 'hey! that elminster bloke aint so tough, a few bad asses like outselves can take em out!' Try to avoid this at all costs, unless you yourself hates the character. Then by all means off him. And if characters do feel like offing big time npc's make sure they realize they are walking targets for people seeking revenge.

geeze, better get back to work Brelkor the Blackhammer The Masta Back Stabba, retired rogue

There is no turning back now, you've woken up the demon in me.
The Darkhold

[Jhani Vandolay]

"Elminster this, Elminster that... Give me two thousand years and a pointy hat and I'll kick his arse!"

[DarthEnder]

haha, Edward is the best evil PC EVER.

[EZ_Healo]

lol playing evil is fun in D&amp;D. I conned a couple loggers in a town to show me where a good hunting ground was for wolves and when we got out there i killed the loggers. it was funny as hell. Usually we will go throgh a whole campeign and then kill each other off. Although we havnt dont it in a while cause we all love our characters right now. I play a half-fiend cleric (10,000exp to 2nd level hehehe). then my friends play a half-dragon ranger, a ogre warrior and a wizard (forgot what race the wizard is). we are all level 1 except for the wizard, he turned 3 last night. my brother (he is always DM) had to set up level 3-4 level campeigns because we whooped to much ass lol. its fun walking into a town with all of us together and the towns people get all freaked out by us. people are always trying to kick us out of towns and they send the guards after us and we just kill the guards and then burn the town down. lol good times being evil.

[EZ_Kintire]

yyyeeesss.....

We all have our own styles of play. In diversity is strength.

I personally feel there is particular strength in diverting well away from that kind of thing.

[EZ_Swipey]

Kill the guard and burn down the town with three level ones and a level 3?

Well, I suppose if that's what you're into, adventure-wise, and the GM plays along.

As I see it, towns/villages always, ALWAYS have some fairly effective means of defence. If they are a on the frontier, the people are tougher and better armed, and are less likely to take any crap from even well armed opponents. If they are in the interior, they have powerful protectors to whom they have sworn fealty, who will come to their aid, either for honor's sake, or for money's. If they have neither of these, they will have something else, be it more cunning and ruthless, or whatever. If they didnt, they would long since have been wiped out or subjugated by someone else.

[Kroe]

Quote: I play a half-fiend cleric (10,000exp to 2nd level hehehe). then my friends play a half-dragon ranger, a ogre warrior and a wizard (forgot what race the wizard is). we are all level 1 except for the wizard, he turned 3 last night. my brother (he is always DM) had to set up level 3-4 level campeigns because we whooped to much ass lol.

I would say he needs to target much higher than that. Isn't an ogre like plus 6 or so levels to be a 0 level character?

[EZ_Jazzin Kurnel]

Suggested reading of the day

VILLANS BY NESSECITY

though its actually questionable wether the party is evil or not, it give a good run down on how evil can work togther. Jazzin Kur'nel 59 rogue

Jaxkel Kur'nel 18 wizzy
Narlix Kur'nel 30 sk

Da Grubs

As moon light fades i hold you dear, till the dawning of the sun.I hold you close i hold you Near protecting you from harm.

" Shoot the horse, its down" Dalbelon Alinath

[Krimzan]

We just started an evil campaign last night after much pestering by me. It was probably the best night we've had in a long time. There is a huge back story to all this, but basically we had to somehow gain control of this town. After a good lenghty discussion we came up with a great plan. Being evil also grants you a few good perks like being able to yell, "I call the women and children," whilest trying to cause terror in the local countryside so that the townspeople feel they need our help. Krimzan
Pirates of the Salisbury Plain (DAoC - Andred) "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
-Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Pirates of the Salisbury Plain messageboard

[EZ_Frostdagger]

One of the best resources I can think of is the old AD&amp;D 2nd edition supplement "Drow of the Underdark" The book is currently out of print and very hard to find. I found my copy on the back of a dusty shelf at an obscure hobby shop, likely there are a few floating around on ebay as well. It details Drow culture as well as how they interact with each other and the other races around them. It also gives full guidelines on Drow PCs, and if you wish Driders as well. The Drow weapons, spells, and magic items are interesting as well.




Gorumm
60 Assassin
Rodcet Nife--

Gorumm's tools of the trade

Grandmaster poisoner(250)
Master potter(125)

[Krimzan]

I just picked up a new book tonight called the Book of Vile Darkness. It has evil prestige classes, evil spells, evil party help, evil monsters, the demon lords of all the circles of hell...good stuff!

You can also flip through and there are some pictures of boobies if you look

[EZ_Matheren]

book of vile darkness is awesome (not just cause it's a monte cook product ;P). just an amazing resource on all things evil, and he didn't hold back at all in writing it.

[EZ_Lady Kaylan]

Oh no fun ... I was going to make a post on "The Book of Vile Darkness" 'cause we just got some copies in the other day (I work at Wizards of the Coast). We actually have to card people ... can't sell to anyone under 18 It's a great book no matter if you're playing good or evil PCs.

[EZ_Lloric]

Here's what I did. One of the characters was looking to become an assassin. So I created an assassins guild that rivaled the Shadow Thieves of Athkatla (from BG2). The characters started at level 5 so he had to get all of his requirements for being an assassin, the largest of which was killing someone for the sole purpose of joining the assassin's guild. The other characters were already part of the guild in different ways however (fighters being guards and strong arms, rogues being...rogues, wizards/sorcerors scrying for the guild, etc) and were assigned to help the would-be-assassin. This was supposed to be a simple one night adventure, but the would be assassin botched the job :) Improvise from this point forward...

I found that, to add to the mood of the campaign, have your players make another copy of their characters and give them to you. From that point on, you make ALL die rolls that realistically, the characters would not know if they failed or succeeded (listen, search, spot, bluff, hide, use your own discretion). They love it, it seems to add a TINY amount of work for you but it's worth it for the campaigns sake. Hope this helps. Lloric Blackpyre - 55 Defliler
Zareleth Shadowheart - 48 Shadowknight

[EZ_Forever Changing]

I liked the box set Menzoberranzan. It gave a lot of details about drow characters and about one of the largest cities of the drow.

If you want an evil race that even the drow are frightened of, look for The Illithiad. It has every single thing that you could think of about the Illithid race. It talks about their biology and reproduction, their psionic powers, their psionic diseases, their history, gods, sects, items. It even talks about Illithid variations like the illithid vampire(don't worry it only has animal intelligence), and the Neothelid. The neothelid is what can happen if the elder brain dies but a tadpole survives and never takes on a host. It becomes a worm 180' feet long, with full psionic powers, and a genius intelligence. Oh and you can't forget about it's breath weapon. 12d12+6 damage that dissolves all of the body except the brain.

Don't worry about too many neothelids in campaigns. The tadpole(slug) has to survive for 100 years first before its intelligence is triggered when it eats an intelligent brain.

Fun stuff if you want true evil.