Resting. I want to, thanks

[EZ_Kintire]

Okay, I've downloaded the Goblin warrens from the SH server. Nice little module, with one slight flaw. Its utterly unplayable.

I've started a sorceress, and discovered to my immense irritation that you can only rest one per day. With the best will in the world my resources are expended after an 30 mins play and a rest. By my calculations, I now have about 30 mins of standing around doing sweet FA until I can rest again. I have better things to do with my life.

How do I make this module let me rest?

Note to budding designers... do NOT do this. I appreciate that the insta rest makes wizards far too good, but this is worse. Why not flag just one area, an inn or somesuch, as restable in, and the remainder as not? similar effect, far less mindless tedium....

[EZ_Gyorg]

Has to do w/ hard core D&D rules I think. In D&D I think your only allowed to rest in a place where you would be willing to go to sleep and not worry about someone walking in and killing you in your sleep.

[EZ_Larlana Lavode]

I'm still quite new to NWN and it's abilities, but as far as gaming mechanics, a spellcaster who can rest for a short duration of time to get back his spells is quite unbalancing. True, it makes for a very dull game for a lonely 1st level wizard who has maybe one or two spells for the day. On the other hand, at the higher levels, these same wizards become obscene because of their ability to just rest for a short amount of time, and thus regain their lost spells.

While I could see a percentage of "spell points" being rewarded over a certain amount of time resting, but at the same time, there should be some risk involved, such as a random encounter. The idea is that spellcasters must think before they cast spell, and not feel they can cast any spells they wish at will.

Just as an aside, I feel what is being lost on a number of people is the idea of this being a "roleplaying" game. Killing mobs is not the sole way of gaining XP points. GMs can distribute XP as they see fit, be it for actions taken to help out a party, solving riddles, finishing quests, coming up with clever tactics, or just roleplaying your butt off. That means there needs to be plenty of GM/Player interaction, and that does not mean fighting.

<steps down from her soap box>

[Aidden]

Aye it is a Hard Core rule module.

We used that moduel for testing the upload code. It was one of the first released and is widely available from many sites...

That might be a good idea to add a tag to the modules page that identifies the mod as using HCDD ruleset..

[EZ_Kintire]

I completely agree that the instant rest is unbalancing. But there should at least be some way to rest somewhere. As I said, maybe just one area at the top... in the absence of recall stones that would be quite a trek.

The situation in which I was (no spells, familiar dead, 2 hp, can't rest for about 30 more real world minutes) is not satisfactory.... there must be a better way.

PS. Thanks for the responses Edited by: Kintire at: 7/16/02 1:42:27 am

[EZ_Keyno Nokey]

There are a number of scripts out there that allow resting if you carry provisions (i.e. food/water/bed roll , etc..) they consume the provisions.. Might be a easier approach togo with, then Hard core rules.

Keyno

[Kroe]

I was actually very impressed with the no resting for a day. It made it more interesting for my rogue/wizard to get through. 1 Crow bad news
2 Crows myrth
3 Crows a wedding
4 Crows a birth
5 Crows for riches
6 Crows a thief

[EZ_Maiya Samsara]

/rant on (What? You thought it was always on?)

Why does hardcore equate to pain-in-the-ass and fun-removed-for-your-displeasure?

I prefer the hardcore where when you act outside of your role/alignment the world responds appropriately. Paladins losing their powers for retreating from combat, rogues getting caught and executed for breaking and entry, clerics of unpopular religions being burned at the stake, and avante gard bards getting booed off the stage for trying new songs that don't rhyme (after all, nothing rhymes with orange).

Being able to rest once per 30 minutes isn't hardcore--it's a hindrance to gameplay. And the G in RPG stands for Game.

Adding consumables to allow people to rest? Making them wait 30 minutes of real time to rest? Garbage... Can't anyone make wandering patrols?

/rant off

[EZ_Kintire]

Yay Maiya!

Lets have the 'realism' where it counts!

[EZ_Telurinon]

Paladin's CAN retreat from combat. They are GOOD, not stupid. "Discretion is the better part of Valor."
Telurinon Aelvenborne, 52nd Rake of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 40th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 28th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

[Kroe]

how is this "pain-in-the-ass and fun-removed-for-your-displeasure?"

maybe use some other tricks to get an objective done, don't be one dimensional.

it's not hardcore, just making you look at other avenues. if you're a caster who is out of spells see what you and your familiar can do until you can rest, if you are injured do what you can to get safe or try and stealth in to take out critters singularly.

saying that not being able to rest after every encounter just makes me think you're the type who uses god mode because all you want to do is win the game. the point in winning is that there was a challenge.

[EZ_Larlana Lavode]

Amen, Kroe. Oh, and it is cavaliers that are the "fool-hardy" types that charge into battle, not paladins.

[EZ_Kintire]

Somebody got out of bed the wrong side this morning didn't they Kroe?

Thank you very much for your riveting assessment of my playing style, based on extensive evidence doubtless, but the fact remains that however multidimensional my playing style, a first level sorceress can only continue so long. When you reach the point of no spells, no scrolls, familiar dead, 2hp left, no amount of lateral thinking will complete a 'kill all the monsters quest'.

As for resting after every encounter... actually I did say that that wasn't desireable, and suggested an alternative. But you'll know all about that, of course, having read my post with great care before commenting.

[Kroe]

ok relax, deep breath.

sorry if you took my post as an attack it wasn't meant to be. it just sounded like you just wanted to beat the game instead of tackling obstacles.

a first level anything is only going to be able to handle a little bit of anything. that's the point of first level.

personally I like the game and the challenge of it. I played it as a wizard rogue, straight rogue, straight wizard, and druid so far just tinkering with tactics. and didn't run into many problems. I think the added realism makes the mod more interesting.

[EZ_Flapjax]

insta-rest is for single players who don't have all day to play games (or who don't want all the D&D rules)

HCR-rest is designed around parties where, in all honesty, you'll rely on the whole parties resources to "pass the time"

- Quip

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

You know that scene in the matrix where they load up on equipment and such for each mission? I made a module of my collective characters "mansion" where my main characters have their own rooms with their own equipment, as well as storage rooms with general equipment, basic items, a chect of drawers with the different outfits, and some containers with potions etc.

For my "spellcaster starting package" I have a couple stacks of cure moderate wound potions, one of the lesser battle robes and that rod from the main campaign that has unlimited ray of frost all stored in a small chest just inside the door of the library. It seems a set up like this would greatly help your chances. It takes a little bit longer, but it is much more enjoyable and works ok for me from an rp perspective since most of my characters share the same family and would not go out adventuring with just 3 starting potions and a generic weapon that they may or may not specialize in.

Of course I'm going to have to rebuild the whole thing from scratch since I had to reformat my computer...

[EZ_Kintire]

Exactly Kroe. You have seen to the very heart. A first level is, indeed, only going to be able to handle so much. But what happens then? If I've handled as much as I can, I need to rest. If I can't rest for another 30mins, what do I do for that 30 mins?

[Elerion]

For once Kroe, I disagree with your point. Sure realism is good, but having to spend 30 minutes doing NADA in a single player game is just silly. The hard core rules are, like Quip said, made with groups of several characters in mind. I am still waiting for my new comp, so I haven't been able to play the game extensively yet (glares at tempting game box on table), but I can clearly see how insta-rest can be unbalancing. Still, resting only once a day makes life unreasonably boring for a low-level solo fingerwaggler. I would be more in favor of at least some "emergency" solution like a distant resting place like Kintire proposed (like at the top of the dungeon) for when the little majikman runs out of gas.

Other than that, Kroe rocks

[Kroe]

wow I have a fan... scary.

really though you're only first level in this module for maybe a couple encounters, granted second level isn't a HUGE amount better but it's there at least. especially in this module where the majority of encounters are masses of low level goblins. as a sorcerer sleep a group, coup de grace them while they are out, go hit another group doing the same. you're almost to second level, and you still have 3 ray of frost left and your familiar.

now granted that was just how I did it and it may have been I got lucky and didn't really need to rest, but I'm just saying it is possible and it makes the tactics involved more challenging which for me is part of the fun.

[Elerion]

Of course it's scary, Fiae and his 2x4 only protects stalked ladies

[EZ_Kintire]

Kroe, I'm afraid you're missing my point. Regardless of spiffy tactics, at some point you just need to rest. Especially if somehting goes wrong.. lucky shot from a goblin, unexpected flanking move, lucky resist roll...

If an encounter went quite badly the only option other than resting is reloading... and I fail to see how that is any less cheesy....

Anyway, it doesn't just apply to this module. Its a general point.

[Kroe]

eh i think we'll have to just agree to disagree with this one. yeah it can be frustrating if yuo have to just sit around and wait to rest, but by the same token I think it really adds to the game when you KNOW you can't rest so you have to play as best you can with what you have while conserving for later.

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

Regardless of how often you feel your adventurer needs to take a nap, nobody is forcing you to play this particular mod or preventing you from editing the difficulty if you cant beat it as it is

[EZ_Maiya Samsara]

I made this new game called Wait. It totally rocks. The objective of the game is to sit around staring at a computer screen. The longer you can wait, the more points you get. Whatever.

80 years of computer technology means I'm not waiting on my computer. I've never played a paper and pencil RPG where the Moderator said: "Okay, if you want to rest, we'll have to sit around for half an hour. You should have thought of a better way to do things. Maybe we should reload from a save point and do this all over again?" The Moderator says things like, "After an uneventful 3 day journey across the Sea of Tranquility, you feel rested and refreshed; except for the dwarf who's been seasick even on the glassy calm waters of the Sea of Tranquility."

Why does the computer version take a flying leap backwards into bad gameplay land when the whole point of the computer version is to eliminate the two biggest hassles of getting a paper and pencil game together: time and distance.

You want realism? Okay, you make a mistake and you die... the computer deletes all your saved games. There is no reload, there is no respawn. Your widow marries another guy, your children call him daddy, and your peasants divide your land for themselves in a bloody civil war. That's realism.

Running out of spells and having to wait a half hour to recharge is crappy gameplay. Worst case scenario the rest option should advance the game clock a day instead of forcing you to wait to rest. A Paper Moderator can handle this simple task of hand-waving, why can't a fricken computer?

Regardless of how often you feel your adventurer needs to take a nap, nobody is forcing you to play this particular mod or preventing you from editing the difficulty if you cant beat it as it is

The complaint isn't against this mod, it's against lousy gameplay. My hope is that I get it through to would-be game designers not to make heaps of dung in the name of "realism". Realism is the enemy of fun games. When realism becomes inconvenient, you throw it out.

Too many people have grown up in a world where save-and-reload every 3 steps is normal. However, repetition is work for most people, and work is not a game I play for fun. Senseless repetition is what makes EQ and DAOC just short of being fun games. You can only kill the monster so many times before it stops being a game and becomes work. People treat their characters like a career more than they treat them like hobbies.

When the game forces you to wait for extended periods of real-time, that's a fatal design flaw. It usually means there's only ONE right way to play the game. That's what's wrong with most Online RPGs. There's only ONE right way to build a group, any other group is going to spend too much time sitting around regenerating.

[Elerion]

Maiya, I do agree with most points, but you forget one thing.

There is this thing called balance. Magic users in D&D are supposed to have limited resources; when their spells are used, they are gone until they can rest the next time. If they did not have this restriction, they would grossly overpower melee classes after level 3-4. With the insta-rest, this restriction is almost thrown out the window, and thus the balance in the game falters. If a sorcerer can cast unlimited spells, why would anyone play a fighter? Sure the fighter can wear armor, but the sorcerer can stop time, entangle their enemies, blind their enemies, confuse their enemies and a number of other tricks to stay alive long enough to blast the living daylights out of them. This restriction has always kept D&D classes more or less balanced in the most popular level range (3-10). After that, as the wizards get more spells than they need to use each day, they have traditionally had vast power. Sure, this concept is a bit more rough on the wizard in a game based on single player instead of groups, but there is still enough reason to maintain at least some of the restriction.

[EZ_Kintire]

Elerion, we are not saying that insta rest is a good thing. But timed rest isn't any better.

What we want is a third way, which has the disadvantages of neither.

[Kroe]

so if it's not insta rest where you can rest anytime you want to, and it's not timed rest where you have to wait a set amount of time. than what is it?

[EZ_Larlana Lavode]

A third way that comes to mind is to give it options on the rest command. Do you want to rest for a few minutes, a few hours, full night's rest, etc.?

After the selection is made, depending on where the character or party is located, there can be a chance for a random encounter, thus hindering the character(s) from resting as much as they would like. Hey, its a gamble if you really want to try to rest out in the wilderness for 8 hours and not get bothered by some kind of encounter, versus being in a nice, cozy inn where you can properly relax.

The flaw to this, however, is if rest is being determined per person, or for the party, otherwise you will have time differences for everyone....one person wants to rest for 3 hours, so should be asleep while other people who are not interested in sleeping are off doing their own thing in town during those 3 hours. Those people who DO rest should have to wait....it is their decision to rest. And yes, this exact thing happens in the pen and paper games.

As a GM, if there is no way to figure out a suitable compromise for rest, to keep spellcasters from taking advantage of the rest option, I would make it a requirement that all spell-casters must find the appropriate components that go with each spell. The idea is for balance between the character classes, or at least some semblence balance.

[EZ_Icebreaker]

sigh wow gonna do my best not to insult anyone in this thread here but yikes some real attitude in this thread LOL.

I guess first things first is, only play multiplayer modules ...multiplayer. The hardcore rule scripts are designed to further bring NWN closer to pen'n'paper rules in a party based situation.
D&D is NOT a single player game never was never will be accept the fact that SP NWN is a compromise to broaden their demographic and hopes of making a profit.
Yes anyone can play any rpg anyway they want the dm has total control to do anything...but the intent of D&D is party vs world not individual vs world.
Sure your dm can custom build you a solo module that’s high on plot low on combat but that’s certainly not the atypical goal.. and even so pnp requires at least 2 of ya's :-).

If you play multiplayer modules single player with a class such as a sorcerer or rogue or druids ect. You should have to sit around for 15mins before you can do anything else if you were silly enough to blow thru spells or try to rush a mob of monsters solo..

Insta-rest breaks the magic system of DnD utterly the way it is now for any kind of group based play.
There is a reason medding takes so long in EQ. IF you commit your resources to a single fight you have to wait before continuing or all balance in game play is lost.

This feature that was added for mass appeal breaks all casters wizards clerics sorcerers ect.

There are a couple scripts that add the purple rose inn to the hardcore rule set.. basically makes inns required for resting you pay for rooms you only gain hitpoints back you should per 24hrs of rest.
This is another step in a positive direction.
Another idea that might work is allowing resting anytime ya want but only allow spells to be refreshed every 30mins or so real time.

Ah well the big one is for a good single player experience play single player modules...for a good multiplayer experience bring a group.. don't expect the compromises introduced to allow single player to be fast paced and more appealing to the masses to dictate what should or shouldn't be part of a multiplayer module..
And complaining on a feature designed for multiplayer games, that ruins the module in a single player capacity for you seems well kind of anal.
Heck if the module wasn’t labelled as to included the fact these features were part of the module suggest they put an updated readme file with the mod.

[EZ_Kintire]

Kroe, How about the suggestion I already made in my first few posts?

Icebreaker; I disagree with everything you say, almost without exception. I think this is a 'you live on your terms, I'll live on mine' situation.

[Kroe]

actually yes I think having only inns flagged as safe rest, would be useful but still easily raped particularly since in the module in question you're always just a hop skip and jump from it so it's still almost insta rest. personally I also like the old ways where when you camped for the night there was a chance of a random encounter while you rested.

personally I would prefer the rules to be once rested you cannot rest for at LEAST 4 to 6 hours. Resting at inns are safe, unable to rest in city zones unless you are at an inn, and if you camp outside a city you must run the risk of a random encounter.

That's how it is in all my pen and paper campaigns and it works well.

[EZ_Dramir]

If it was a hardcore dnd rules mod shouldnt you only face about 5 mobs and spend the rest of the time arguing with your dm about attacks of oppurtunity and drinking mountain dew?


I can understand only resting once per day if it plays out like pnp but nwn throws SOO many more mobs at you than a sit down game that casters really do need to rest or they just suck.



Edit: Please read our sig/personal pic rules. Both mustn't be more than 15kbyte combined. - ShadowCross
Edited by: Shadowcross at: 7/23/02 3:04:13 am

[EZ_Kintire]

Exactly.

And Kroe, in my PnP games you can only rest and refresh once every 24 hours, taking 8 hours to do it. But that is because if nothing else is happening, I can sya 'right, you wait until nightfall and then rest.' Actually having to sit through it is dull dull dull.

Random encounters might also work. Best of all, however, would be if the monsters in a dungeon didn't just sit in one place... they would favour one place but occasionally wander around. Then you might actually get found....

[Kroe]

I'm pretty sure you can script them to wander to certain points, but that particular mod doesn't.

[EZ_Maiya Samsara]

Downtime is not a class balancing device. When it becomes noticeable, it shows a flawed game design. A game is, by definition, an activity providing entertainment or amusement.

How about downtime: The period of time when something, such as a factory or a piece of machinery, is not in operation, especially as the result of a malfunction.

Downtime is the result of a malfunction. There's nothing amusing or entertaining about downtime; nothing balancing about it. One class is supposed to be more amusing and entertaining than the others? At what cost? At best, in a multiplayer environment, downtime offers a chance for socializing. In a singleplayer environment, it serves no purpose at all.

[EZ_FedaTheMonk]

sorry, I've been holding back till now...

all I have to say is... if you don't like D&D, if you don't like NWN, if you don't like the Mod, quit bitching about it all and find a new game to play, don't post on threads about it, don't even glance in its general direction, just silence, that is all we need from you.

Now, if you're one of those who enjoy playing the game (and realize there are consequences to every choice) then please, let the fighting stop and the discussion begin.






*note* pardon my spelling, typing this at work, trying not be get caught, thanks bye

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

"Downtime is not a class balancing device"

Right, so mages should be able to hurl as many spells as they want, whenever they want, without preparing ahead of time or having a casting time.

Rogues should be able to instantly set traps and open locks, and not have 10 seconds of downtime for each attempt.

The time between when my fighter first swings his sword and then swings again is downtime. I hate that they make it so realistic that I cant swing without pause. Thats no fun. Computer games are supposed to let me win easily because I think thats fun. Any game that doesnt instantly gratify me is flawed, and therefore a perversion of the role computer games are intended to play.

Also, anyone who insinuates in any way that I am losing because I am playing a group mod by myself, or that my skills are somehow not LEET will have a scathing remark hurled at them. I have been playing EQ since U were a nEWB so your opinion is nothing to mine. I am friends with many people on this board who will agree with me because I parse damage and played NWN beta for 10 years so therefore I know my stuff.

The End.

P.S. WTB Vorpal Great Sword +5 and good armor for a druid plz send tell thx

[EZ_Kintire]

I had a slight suspicion that this was going to happen. I suppose I should just be grateful it took so long.....

Feda. I fear you may have missed the point about discussion. If the only people who post in a thread say 'wow, this mod is perfect' and nobody else is allowed to post it's quite a dull discussion. Threads tend to be on the short side. On the other hand, if people are allowed to post problems with the Mod/game/system, some helpful suggestions may emerge.

My dear count....

Paragraph 1) Perhaps the phrase should be rephrased as 'downtime is a very very bad class balancing device...' but the points made in the posts still stand.

Paragraph 2) Who brought preparation and casting time into this? Downtime is time spent doing nothing, not any pause or actions taking time.

Paragraph 3) See paragraph 2.

Paragraph 4) The time a fighter takes to swing his sword is NOT downtime, or anything even slightly like it. During a fight the game is ongoing, something is happening, decisions to be made, fun to be had. During downtime, nothing is happening. The occasional sound effect perhaps. The odd character animation as they yawn or stretch. Fun not being had. And computer games are not supposed to be easy, but they are not supposed to be dull either. Games are pretty much supposed to gratify me, yes. Or at least keep my interest. If I want to sit for half an hour gazing at a screen on which nothing is happening, I can watch my desktop for a bit.

Paragraph 5) Anyone who makes remarks about my posts without reading them is in line for some gentle sarcasm, yes. And, while I used the Mod as an example (listed as minimum players 1 BTW) the problem is a more general one.

As for the rest of this response, I shall content myself with defying you to produce one quote of mine where I have ever said anything even remotely like anything you parody here. Clearly you have unresolved issues over this kind of thing, but they are not with me.

The End? So I should hope.

Oh you fibbed. Pity.

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

Did it ever occur to you to open the mod in the toolset (a program that comes with the game.. you can edit modules in it) and remove the script or change the difficulty level that is causing you so much grief?

If I downloaded a mod that brought me nearly to tears of frustration as this seems to have done with you, I wouldnt spend a half hour waiting, I would go change the impudent factor and get back to playing.

Fortunately, I have never encountered something that challenged me overmuch that I had to resort to said measures, but to each his own.

Oh, and calling something unplayable because you couldnt beat it alone (as a caster I'm guessing..) is hardly what I would call constructive critisism, but more akin to flamebait - unintended or otherwise. Perhaps this particular module should be recommended for a full party only?

[Lisboa]

I noticed the lack of random spawning monsters when you rest. Something missing out of the BG series.

[EZ_Kintire]

Tears of frustration? do me a favour! its only a one dungeon mod.

And I can beat it alone; The individual encounters are fairly well balanced. I've got through it as a Fighter, and my sorceress has only three rooms to go. The problem is, why should I bother waiting half an hour to rest before I finish it off? The problem is not with the Mod; its with the whole concept of once a day resting. It works in PnP, but not in NWN.

And saying a mod is unplayable is not flamebait. Flaming someone for things they've never said is.

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

Its flamebait if you say its unplayable for a specific reason that is clearly a personal issue.

The thing I didnt like about the random spawning monsters when you rested (in BG anyway, never got around to BG2) is you could rest for 7 hours and get attacked, but would recover no spells at all. I like how in NWN that the spells are replenished as you are resting and if you get attacked while sitting you at least have a few spells to fight with.

[EZ_Kintire]

Rubbish. Feel free to disagree with my point on actual grounds, like Kroe, but just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean its a personal issue.

I agree the spell refreshment is good. It would be an even nicer feature if you actually did get attacked while resting.

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

You should be able to set someone to "stand guard" or something similar so others can rest nearby.

Random attacks were bad in BG, 2 rangers in my party and neither one noticed the howling gibberlings that appeared all around 3 paces away.

I also thought it was lame in NWN that you couldnt rest if an enemy was nearby, as half the time I couldnt even see the enemy I was near. It always turned out that said enemy was outside my field of vision just ahead, so it wasnt much of a surprise when they ambushed me. Maybe lessen the radius that checks for enemies before you camp. That could fix it. Or its possible that *subtle propaganda* its a personal issue experienced only by myself.

[Kroe]

Actualyl i think it SHOULD let you try and rest, but as soon as you sit your happy ass down the critters get to attack you since you are flatfooted, and such.

[EZ_Larlana Lavode]

If the mod is meant to be something that only one person is playing, then yes, I can see the unpracticality of having to wait 30 minutes just have your character rest for 8 hours. With that in mind, they should make it an option for the DM to allow for time passage to be "jumped" ahead.

However, should you be attacked, I can see the character having regained possibly some of his/her hit points, depending on how much time has passed. But I disagree upon the point about spells being re-memorized. While a character needs actual sleeping time, for mages and priests, they must either rememorize their spells, or they must pray for them to regain them. To allow a character to sleep for 8 hours on the same day, just to regain spells, is totally wrong. Especially if there is more than one player in the mod.

[EZ_AlyssiaLaterose]

Quote: Its flamebait if you say its unplayable for a specific reason that is clearly a personal issue.

It is not just a personal issue. It's an issue with the so-called Hardcore Ruleset. All that ruleset is, is a big, arse, time waster. Solo or group play. No one in their right mind is really going to want to play a caster if all they can do is poke with their dagger after they use all their spells, and have to wait 30 minutes real time before they can rest again.

Most of the modules I've seen and played in using this ruleset or the no-rest option, have been easily gotten through in around a half hour. Kinda makes it pointless to play a caster.

The only good feature about the resting script, is that if you have a bedroll, you only have to wait 16 minutes realtime, instead of 32 - 48 minutes, depending on the time settings of the module in question.

If all the resting scripts were set to 16 minutes with or without a bedroll, then it would be much more convienant and realistic.

Again, it's not just a personal issue with this single module. it's an issue with the HCR that could spread to other modules. And just deleting the HCR script, could break the module.

~Aly

[EZ_The Wolfen]

Quote: It is not just a personal issue. It's an issue with the so-called Hardcore Ruleset. All that ruleset is, is a big, arse, time waster. Solo or group play.

Please don't express your opinions as facts, a lot of people do not feel this way. This is a personal issue inasmuch as it is a matter of opinion, some people hate HCR and some people love it.

It's simple, if you don't like HCR rules then don't play HCR modules as it will only do your blood pressure harm.

Quote: No one in their right mind is really going to want to play a caster if all they can do is poke with their dagger after they use all their spells

Personally I try to conserve my spells and use other weapons for a lot of the fighting. Crossbows, slings and thrown weapons all do a good job, especially stacked up against some of the lousy low level spells. I find a quarterstaff is a lot better than a dagger in my opinion as well.

Quote: Again, it's not just a personal issue with this single module. it's an issue with the HCR that could spread to other modules. And just deleting the HCR script, could break the module.

You can turn of the rest restriction, or alter it's parameters, by changing variables in one of the include files. A lot of the other functions of the ruleset can be changed this way as well. I believe the latest version of the ruleset allows the DM to change them on the fly as well.

Malvan Klaive. Wolfen."You want to hear about voting? I'm here to tell you about voting.
Imagine you're locked in huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnamable things that rape pit bulls for fun.
YOU like to put your feet up and watch 'republican party reservation'.
THEY like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns and brand new sexual organs you didn't know existed.
So you vote for television and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to **** you with switchblades.
That's voting.
You're welcome." - Spider Jerusalem. Transmetropolitan.

"You microtomed my gonads? I'm gonna make you wish I'd killed you for that." - Sorrow
"Cazmonster takes a moment out of sniping evil pengooins in the head to ponder the coolness of Wolfen on fire." - Caz

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

In my view, it forces the player to create a more diverse mage. Why not take heavy armor proficiency for those times when youre out of spells? Better yet, take a couple fighter levels and learn to use a greataxe or specialize in a sword of some kind. If youre an elven wizard I believe you get longsword proficiency as a racial bonus.

Casting mage armor or ghostly visage helps you stay alive in melee against lesser foes, and with your familiar you shouldnt have too much trouble.

The rules are only as confining as your inability to plan ahead, or failing that, to improvise.