Duel Wielding

[EZ_Xaxxx]

ello all,

I was playing around with more rogue combinations lastnight and ran across something I don't understand. For the first time, I rolled a rogue (halfling) w/o ambidexterity and two weapon fighting and instead used weap focus in Short Sword and Dagger. I also used improved crit in Short Sword and Dagger.

I was surprised that I was able to duel wield. I thought I had to have at least ambidexterity. I was also surprised to see that this rogue was performing just as well as all the other combos I tried who all used ambidexterity two weap fighting, improved two weap fighting, weap finesse, weap focus in short sword and dagger and improved crit on Short Sword.

Why is this? Edited by: Xaxxx at: 7/19/02 2:22:27 pm

[Kroe]

anyone can duel wield, but you have significatn penalties that are applied. Ambidexterity cuts them down and makes them even for each hand, two weapon fighting cuts the penalties down more, and improved two weapon cuts back even more.

now if I could just figure out how to make a monk with two weapon fighting and ambidexterity use both attacks a round unarmed.. 1 Crow bad news
2 Crows myrth
3 Crows a wedding
4 Crows a birth
5 Crows for riches
6 Crows a thief

[EZ_Xaxxx]

Ah, ok. But why does Rogue two perform just as well as Rogue one? Edited by: Xaxxx at: 7/19/02 2:41:27 pm

[Kroe]

errrrr huh? what is rogue one and what is rogue two?

[EZ_Holtsville]

I think he means the rogue he rolled that had all the feats that make two handed fighting more efficient and the rogue he rolled without it. I just think that you've been on a pretty lucky streak with the second rogue, because in all my experience so far, my dual wielding attacks are vastly superior when I have the feats that offset the penalties.

[Llabak Tharr]

Aye, I think that if you fight with 2 weapons, you get a second attack with the offhand, but you suffer like a -4 and -8 penalty to your attacks, respectively. One feat makes them -2/-6, another makes them 0/-4, and then the next would decrease the offhand even more.

Look at the to hit bonuses on your character sheet between the two characters. You'll find rogue 1 will have much higher attack bonuses than rogue 2.

(I just made up the penalty numbers, didn't feel like looking it up in the PHB ) Llabaktharr Gigglegiggler
51 Lawncare Facilitator and gnomosexualizer of da ladies (retired)
And introducing: Heremon, Level 38 Firbolg Bard of Percival, Grandmaster Smith
Sanditari Gigglegiggler, 35 'keen 'chanter
100% socializer 53% explorer 33% achiever 13% killer and 100% lover.
AGM for Camelot, Crusaders of the Realms

Can ya dig it?

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

normal dual wield without any feats is (primary/offhand)
-6/-10

If your offhand weapon is light
-4/-8

with ambidexterity
-6/-6

with 2 weapon fighting
-4/-8

Offhand weapon is light and ambidexterity
-4/-4

Offhand weapon is light and 2 weapon fighting
-2/-6

Ambidexterity and 2 weapon fighting
-4/-4

Offhand weapon is light and ambidexterity and 2 weapon fighting
-2/-2

How well you actually fight depends on your overall attack bonus, the difficulty of the creature you are trying to hit, the weapon you use, whether you have weapon finesse or not, many things.

If I am using a character that has no fighter levels, I usually just use 2 weapon fighting since ambidexterity doesnt do enough to justify taking up another feat which could be mobility or toughness or something more useful.

[Kroe]

BTW what qualifies as a light weapon for your offhand is something at least one size smaller than your race's size. I think in second edition it was one size or more smaller than the weapon in your on-hand.

[EZ_Wemic]

It should list the weight and also the class in the description.

[EZ_Holtsville]

Offhand is a light weapon if it's one size smaller or more than the largest weapon you can use one handed. For humans, dwarves, elves, half-orcs, and half elves, small and tiny weapons are light, since they can standardly use medium sized weapons with one hand. For halflings and gnomes, small weapons are their standard weapon size, so only a tiny weapon for them would be a light weapon.

That's why most halfling dual wielding rogues (or gnome) will use a short sword and a dagger. I, as a human rogue, use a rapier in main hand and short sword in my off hand.

[EZ_Gyorg]

My question is when the hell am I going to get the feats to do this? I used my first feat or 2 on something else before I realized I wanted to do dual wield. I'm level 8 now I think, I put 2 hand or ambi as my last feat, but will I have a chance even to get the 2 more feats I need to completely improve my dual wielding? --------------------------
Gyorg Lavode, The original Phin-o-matic Safehouse Moderator
Unguilded Rogue Badass
of the 58th Moon over Xegony

[EZ_Vaclav Romanov]

At level 9, 12, 15, 18 you will get feats still...

So you can still get there

[EZ_Holtsville]

I'd suggest either picking up ambi or 2 handed fighting at level 9, whichever you didn't pick up already. Then at level 12 choose improved two-weapon fighting if you have two weapon fighting, ambidexterity, and a base attack bonus of 9 or better. Then after that, it's up to you. I found weapon finesse was very useful, as well as weapon focus.

[EZ_Squink McPoke]

I took one level of ranger, to get ambidex and two-weapon fighting for free .. I haven't seen improved two weapon fighting as an available feat yet though (at level 19 currently, 18 rogue/1 ranger) so that's something to consider.

Kinda neat to have a racial enemy too, I chose undead, man I hate skeletons. -- Squink McPoke, 60 Assassin, Lanys T'vyl

[Elerion]

The problem with going rogue/(1)ranger is that unless you are human, half-elf or halfling, you get a 20% experience penalty
. Edited by: Elerion at: 7/20/02 2:54:57 pm

[Kroe]

Ironically in 3rd edition rules anything that you can't get a crit on you basically get little to no advantages for havign a preferred enemy. and since you can't crit against undead ( theoretically since yeah you could lop off the head and it wouldn't care) you get no bennies for being it's racial enemy. which is fine if you're doing it to roleplay though hehe.

I also hate skellies... and drow. always my first two enemies.

[EZ_Hummerlein]

i tested this a while ago...if you get ranger just for dual wield (combo of ambidex and two weapon fighting) there's a bug where you can't get improved two weapon fighting unless you get 9 ranger levels.

since the game collapses ambidex and 2 wep fighting into the one skill of dual wield, it doesn't recognize it as having the other ones, so you have to get both feats again to get improved two weapon fighting.

it's probably just a bug that will get fixed eventually, though.

[EZ_Vaclav Romanov]

Hummerlein...

In real 3E it doesn't work that way...

You HAVE to get the real version of Two-Weap and Ambidex to qualify to learn the real version of Improved Two-Weap...

Remember the Ranger one only works in light armor...

[EZ_Hummerlein]

oh, well, okay then.

good thing i never picked up that level of ranger

[EZ_TheCountofThree]

If you have undead or constructs or something else immune to crits for your racial enemy, then you still get bonuses to your spot and listen checks.

Not the most efficient if thats what youre after, but d&d isnt all about efficiency

and Rangers get "Dual Wield" for free at first level, which is functionally the same as ambi and 2weap but for a char that isnt also a level 9 ranger you need to get both actual feats to qualify for improved 2weap fighting.