LDoN Type 4 Augments - Lifetap vs. DD

[EZ_Rinalthelis]

The more I look at the Lifetap proc Augments, the more they make sense to me. That said, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts before I invest 40+ hours of hard earned APs in one and put it on my Epic! Here is the data & my argument in favor of these augments, please provide your thoughts.

First, it looks like both Vampire Kiss & Vampire Talon have been changed on Test:
Vampire Kiss (1150 AP)
Vampire Talon (340 AP)
Highlights are remove the Push, a -25 resist adjustment to Vamp Kiss & Disease resist rather than Fire. My discussion below is assuming that these changes will be made Live at some point in the next month or three, since I'm interested in the long term augmentation of higher end weapons.

Here is a list of the Type 4 Augments I'm aware of:

-1150-
Type 4: Black Diamond of Regeneration, Proc: Vampire Kiss (75 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -25)
-760-
Type 4: Radiant Permafrost, Proc: Permafrost (150 hp DD vs. Cold -25)
-510-
Type 4: Silver-Flecked Crystal of Agony, Effect: Rujarkian Bile (125 hp DD vs. Poison -10)
-340-
Type 4: Rejuvenating Bone Fragment, Proc: Vampire Talon (50 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -0)
Type 4: Jagged Permafrost Chunk, Proc: Icicle Claw (100 hp DD vs. Cold -0)
-100-
Type 4: Glowing Permafrost, Proc: Icicle Strike (75 hp DD vs. Cold -0)
-40-
Type 4: Warm Emerald Shard, Proc: Heated Blade (50 hp DD vs. Fire -0)
-20-
Type 4: Cold Slimestone Fraglemt, Proc: Blast of Frost (20 hp DD vs. Cold -0)

I'm only interested in augments for high end weapons (i.e. Ragebringer, Gargoyle Talon, etc.) so that eliminates the bottom three augments. For the really high end stuff (assuming one Type 4 slot), our choices are basically the top three augments. Let's start, however, by comparing the two 340 AP Augments since they are the same cost, and then get to the higher value ones.

-- 340 AP Tap or DD? --
100 hp DD or 50 hp Lifetap? Basically we are trading a 50 hp DD for a 50 hp Heal. My thoughts are that in 99% of high end environments, a 50 hp Heal halfway through a fight is as good as starting that fight with an extra 50 hp. Heck, if it procs more than once then it's 100 hp or even more! Obviously this is not the case when you are at 100% health, but we Rogues frequently run at 80-90% health because we take a little damage here and there and it rarely adds up to enough for the healer to actually dump mana on us. Thus I think the comparison is fairly good. In addition, the resist is against Disease rather than Cold, which is likely to be less resisted. So basically, would you rather do an extra 50-200 hp damage to the target (who likely has 10s of thousands of hp) or heal yourself by that amount (amounting to a fair percentage of your total hp). I think the Lifetap is clearly the better choice here.

-- 500-1200 AP Tap or DD? --
This is a little more difficult. The 510 AP poison DD is mighty tempting. In fact, it looks a lot better than the 760 AP Cold DD -- would you pay 250 AP for the extra -15 resist adjustment & the 25 hp DD (correct me if I'm wrong please)? For that reason, let's compare the 510 AP Poison DD to the 1150 AP Lifetap.

Ok, so we are paying 650 AP to trade a 50 hp DD for a 75 hp Heal (125-75 = 50). Add in the Poison vs. Disease switch, and an extra -15 resist adjustment. That's a tough one, but let's remember that this has a Req Level of 65, which means the difference here is about 13 Wins. That's an extra 1-3 weeks it's going to take you to save for the augment, and if you've made it to L65 then I don't think that will make a difference to you. Let's also remember that we are talking about augmenting a very high end weapon that we may well be using for the foreseeable future. Thus the AP difference is significant, but not amazingly so. Insert the same argument above for this trade (would you rather do an extra 200 DD to a target or have an extra 300 hp?), and the Lifetap is looking very good. Add the -15 resist adjustment (every bit counts) and the Lifetap is a clear winner.

-- In Closing --
No, I do not thing the Healing Agro will be significant, I'd rather have the agro then letting the healer get it because I can Evade. Yes the additional DD will increase your DPS, but we are talking about an extra 1-5 DPS and that's not going to be as significant as the 5-30 hp per tic regeneration the taps will effectively add. If I asked you would you rather have a +20 STA augment or a 50 hp DD augment for your weapon, I think you'd probably take the STA. If we were talking about +300 ish HP or the 50 hp DD, the hp would probably win for most people. Arguably, the Lifetaps could even add up to a lot more hp than that over a relatively short period of time! Lastly, I really like the idea of distracting the healer less (when I've played a healer, it's always distracting to see someone at 70-90% health because you know you'll need to heal them some day but you don't want to do it yet....)

That's my spiel, let the flames begin!

Rinalthelis Wolfbrother <Ancient Adventurers>
Zair Wolfbrother <Ancient Adventurers>
Guild Officer and Liason to Karana Council of Guilds Edited by: Rinalthelis at: 9/26/03 2:27 pm

[EZ_Marcalo DeUnero]

Quote:would you pay 250 AP for the extra -15 resist adjustment & the 25 hp DD
absolutely.. -15 resist is incredibly noticable. Not to mention it's cold vs poison and i've noticed a lot more poison resistant that cold.. but maybe thats just because i always use poison and hardly use cold at all.

[EZ_Derrict]

I went with the 50hp tap on Ifir because I don't plan on grinding out a bunch of missions to get the 75hp one, but that's just me. I've already gotten sick of doing these LDoN missions.

[EZ_Quinnotetiquan]

Rujarkian Venom is a 150 DD with a -25 resist just like Permafrost. However I dont know the poison and cold resists for mobs overall.

[EZ_Iosif McCloud]

Festering Darkness (61sk)

Cascading Darkness (59sk)

The primay diffrace inthe 2 spells is "Resist ajust -20" on Festering... and it lands ALOT more then Cascading Darkness


So you do the think about it.... Landing a DD is far less Agro then if thay resist.... If your in to NOT PISSING off the MoB... the better the resist ajust the less resists... resists carry FAR more agro then if you land a DD (unless it has a STUN componet to it)

[EZ_Kanaellars]

Speaking as a cleric... I think that the difference depends on your role in the group.

If you are frequently the main tank of the group, go for the DD and forget the lifetap. If you are MT then I will be healing you anyway so do your damage.

If you are a support DPS (which I belive the poster was a rouge) then go for the lifetap, because that lets the cleric deal with the MT and not have to worry about you as often.

Just 2cp from a cleric.

[EZ_Gawin]

Speaking from an SK perspective...your comparison of Cascading to Festering is not quite right.

I don't use Festering over Cascading due to a paltry resist adjust...I use it because it's about half the mana cost for a similar effect over time.

I don't consider the resists at all.

And if you're doing a lot of dungeons...then yeah...maybe going for extra resist adjusts would be good. If you don't do a lot, then go for the cheaper ones.

[EZ_Syldin]

The LDoN procs are going to go off, on average, about once every 30 seconds.

For a 75hp heal that means you are expecting to get one every 5 ticks, or about 25hp/tick regen.

That's great ! BUT - if you are full health you get absolutely nothing.

That's ok, you may say, I am rarely on full health.

BUT - if you are not on full health, it is extremely unlikely that you are ever going to get 100% heal efficiency, in fact in many cases I would suspect that the overlap on heals is more than the amount you would get from procs anyway ( i.e. you are healed for 3k when you are only missing 2600hp )

To my mind, DD or lifetap, the effects are mostly toys which will not have any noticeable impact on your DPS or survivability.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

15 hp a tick for the 75.

[EZ_LuminarGU]

I think all of these are novelty only. I would like to see some actual data on the procs. I see so many level 65's going after the lifetap proc without actually thinking #1 it is not going to proc enough to make it worth it (the proc every 30 seconds someone mentions is pretty bad). #2 the life tap procs arnt going to do crap compared to damage output (the mobs in ldon do 300+ per hit in lvl 60 adventures. Congrats, you've spent 1100 points so you can half the damage of one hit every 30 some seconds).

And as a high level cleric, lets just say you'd have to try really hard to make me go lom in ldon via heals. I'm almost always pulling, and the close calls ive had in not completing an adventure have been due to lack of dps. For me, get the 150 proc if you want.. no less. Also make sure your not plugging it into a lame weapon. If your weapon sucks in the first place and you are not pushing the dps (not usually a rogue problem, this is directed at other melee) then these augments wont bring you above the line.

[EZ_Heka01]

I added the 50 lifetap to Ifir (offhand) and am happy with it.

APART from the damn annoying knock forwards when it procs. irritating in many zones, but in PoWater it lobs you half way across the room. Obviously for backstab purposes this is a problem.

It procs fairly often and with Ingenuity 3 it even crits for 100 which is nice. For the points (340 Mistmoore) it's fine and as a rogue the occasional heal is welcome.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

ya and clerics also wonder why i paid 50k to get a 100pt heal that takes 6 seconds to cast and only works on self. But a rogue understands. That heal is godly to a rogue.

Rogue Gearing isnt always about optimal situations. In fact usually gear is about limiting the odds of failure in suboptimal situations. And one of the most important suboptimal situation for a rogue is solo/farming. Lifetap is much more useful in those situations. Also up there in suboptimal situations is things like Arch Lich. Where any damage removed delays the attention you need from a healer and the damage is "slow" in the form of 20 damage a second. In that situation lifetap surely dominates a measly +1.25 dps that your suggesting. (difference between 75 and 150 proced twice a minute is +1.25 dps).

In fact since i been teaching rogue gear ive pounded one thing:
You never gear a rogue for an exp group.

Exp groups are generally easy. Generaly you will never tip the balance from lost to win on these choices. Arguing "best" in a situation where "best" is generally irrelevant is a waste of time. Its places the game gets hard that you eye gear for:
AEs, solo/duos, ooms, no buffers etc. You mentioned "..in groups i heal..." or some such but thats exactly the wrong situation for a player to have in there mind when selecting gear because that situation is already won for the reasons you point out.

lifetap dominates suboptimal situations realitive to +1.25 dps.

[EZ_patofnaud]

One thing to keep in mind that a LOT of folks overlook.. When you lifetap, yes you heal for 50hp but you ALSO DD for the 50hp your taking away with very low aggro...

[EZ_SincroFashad]

I slapped the 150 cold DD from Miragul on my GRMK. I'm in heaven with it. As you can see from my magelo in other posts, I off-hand a lifetap proccing weapon, and eventually I'll prolly add the 75 hp lifetap to it as well, assuming I haven't upgraded the weapon by then. Based on several months of having a lifetap proc, though, it was an easy choice for me to go with a DD proc. 45 or 90 hp every now and then really and truly doesn't mean much. If I'm truly that worried about my hp during raids, I equip my fungi tunic.

-Sinc

[EZ_Perciful Pellinore]

Has anyone parsed their procs when they have more then one type of proc available? I'm thinking that the more procs you can proc the less any one proc will go off. e.g. add a buff proc and the weapon proc's cut in half :P.

Example:
Black Blade of Rain (1h slash w/zombie bane 75dd undead only)
add the 75 point lifetap aug for 1492 :P

Self Buff with either an undead only or general dd proc buff.

With all 3 the lifetap went off spareingly and i notice it everytime due to that annoying hop-forward-to-interupt-your-casting-crap :P. However when I didn't self buff; the Vamp proc went off noticable more.

Now I'm thinking that I paid 1492 points and put it on a weapon that will cut the number of lifetaps I actually get in half there by gimping the aug.

[EZ_Macbrea]

I can safely say I love having the ability to self heal. LDoN is a perfect example when that is nice. I normally, end up starting all parties with the following statements.

"Strength is currently maxed also if you see me above 75% don't bother to heal me have self healing."

What this does is tells the other members of the party not to waste the mana on me. That way, I am not a resource drain on the party.

I have yet to have a cleric complain that I am healing myself.

[EZ_bippinfv]

15 hps per tick is fungi level regen. Isn't the AP cost cheap for a fungi?

[EZ_Marcalo DeUnero]

Quote:15 hps per tick is fungi level regen. Isn't the AP cost cheap for a fungi?
especially when you consider you don't have to wear one and suffer it's craptastic stats.

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:Has anyone parsed their procs when they have more then one type of proc available? I'm thinking that the more procs you can proc the less any one proc will go off. e.g. add a buff proc and the weapon proc's cut in half :P.

Yes, and no, the added aug doesn't change the proc frequency of the existing proc on a weapon.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

I think we all have this dilemma.

While i can see that a cleric would argue that a tank should go DD, thats because they are never in a group with sup par healing. When en a group whare healing is limited, I would thing the lifetaps are much more important to tanks.

But back to the real clasee

I happen to have sword from emp that procs 100 point unresistable lifetap. And I am finding that I have been at full hp about half the time. More if I have a good tank. Its a close call, but given the choise I think I would have preferred a 200 point dd. I am finding that between, natural/spell regen, and the occational use of my mrylo bp, healing is not much of an issue, where as avery bit of damage counts.

[EZ_CaldoShujin]

I added the Vampire Talon to RB and Ruj Bile to GT and am very happy.

No additional aggro noticed.

[EZ_Rinalthelis]

Thanks all for your input! Based on the comments here, and considering that I'm currently L55 and I have RB Main & LDoM Offhand, I've come up with the following plan:

1. I will augment RB with the 340 AP Vampire Talon (50 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -0) when I have enough AP (should be in about two weeks).

2. When I get a Main Hand upgrade (GT or whatever) I will swap RB to Offhand & augment my new Mainhand with the 510 AP Rujarkian Bile (125 hp DD vs. Poison -10).

3. When I get another weapon upgrade (Ifir or whatever) and have to finally bank my Epic, I'll augment that new weapon with the 1150 AP Vampire Kiss (75 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -25). Mainhand will be which ever of the two weapons that makes sense.

A dead Rogue does zero DPS, so even though there is a slight disadvantage when I'm at full health, I think the lifetap is going to help when it is most needed. The 50 hp Lifetap will be on my Epic before I make L56. I know a 50 hp heal seems small, but at L55 I think the cost-benifit ratio is fantastic. The further progression plan leaves lots of room for modification depending on what exact weapons I get in step 2 & 3, but the goal is to have one Lifetap proc & then maximize the DPS of the other weapon.

[EZ_escrimaserrada]

Has anyone tried putting the lifetap on a bow?

[EZ_Derrict]

check the ranger forum on that one ;)

[EZ_Galidin]

Hardly a good example, but I have 75 tap aug, and was doing sleepers tomb the other day.

On average, each warder I healed myself between 890 and 1500 points of extra healing from proc.

That may not seem like much, but its nearly 1 AE plus having done the damage.

Seems good to me.

Galidin

[EZ_Arcturos]

If are wondering about the value of lifetaps to a rogue get a Blood Point and see for yourself. Main hand it against mobs with a DS and suddenly the DS is not a big deal. Sure the backstabs won't be a good since its only a 10 dmg weapon but if you need to top off the HP in a fight its priceless. The proc (80 HP life tap) has almost no aggro.

So, put a 75 HP lifetap on the main (Ragebringer or whatever) and off hand a blood point or another life tap aug weapon and go to town. When you are back up to full or the DS'd mob is down replace the life tap with a better weapon if you have one.

[EZ_Brexx]

I added the lifetap proc to my weapon, I like it but the jump forward thing is annoying and the graphic really lags me out, wish they just would have gone with the traditional lifetap graphic.

[EZ_Arcturos]

On Lucy test there are signs that the jump forward is being removed.

[EZ_Rinalthelis]

It looks like both the "Knock Forward" removal and the Resist changes went live this morning. Very exciting, and I'm almost there!

[EZ_Dagny Blazestorm]

I have the 75 lifetap on my SEWS and can confirm that the knock forward is gone. Its a very nice proc now.

[EZ_Windaria]

I'm doign the 125 Poison DD. Simply because it seems like the "best bang for the buck."

I'm not done upgrading my weapons in EQ, so I suspect in a few months I may get a good EP weapon and have to rebuy my Proc Augment all over again. It seems a lot easier to keep buying a 500pt Aug over and over than having to buy a 1000pt Augment.

So keep that in mind when you choose. "Do you want to keep rebuying the 75pt life tap over and over again?"

[EZ_Neas Attrebr]

Anyone see better damage from poisons by using lifetaps that lower resists?

Neas

[EZ_Sitkan]

When you consider the very high end daggers, those found in PoTime, you run into a problem when choosing a proc. Basically your options get more limited, since daggers like Dagger of Distraction or Jagged Timeforged have Type 8 as their augment. The 75hp lifetap does come in a Type 8 augment, but many of the other high damage procs do not. For me, I choose to go with the 150pt poison DD from Rujarkian. As far as options went, it was the highest damage DD I could get a hold of for Type8 slots. Also, the Rujarkian Venom only costs 760, while the lifetap still costs 1150. With PoTime weapons you're left with two options, Rujarkian Venom(150pt DD) and Vampire Kiss(75pt lifetap). So whether you decide to put the DD in primary and the lifetap in secondary, or visa versa, thats about the biggest desicion you have. All the other type 8 procs are very crappy. I will put the lifetap on my offhand eventually, but I'm still sticking with DD in primary. Btw, all weapons and armor found in PoTime are Type 8 slots.

~Sitkan Silentfoot
Forsaken Realm
Mith Marr

[EZ_Northerner]

I've been using the 150 Cold DD (-25 resist) from Miragul's on my present weapon and have been largely happy with it. It does get resisted occasionally (a fair bit hunting in BoT but rarely in LDoN or on raids frankly) but I like it by and large. I'm not sure it was a better buy than the Rujarkian one but there we are.

The 75 Lifetapper is one I'll keep an eye on but likely save for an Ifir or a dagger I am certain I'll be keeping for a long period of time. 750 was about all I wanted to invest into a GT that I (hopefully) will not be mainhanding forever.

It's a bit of a shame there are not more utility procs out there but what are ya going to do? I'd throw a 50 LT into RB offhand but I've already got one in my Ishanear Xiall and I do like the double lifetaps for when I solo quest mobs and the like. I did play with Mirror for a while but ultimately the buff slot is too valuable to me, also ixnaying the various Spell Shield and Guard flavors as well.

[EZ_araxas xev]

I have 50 lifetap on my current offhand and will be replacing it with 150 dd as soon as I upgrade the weapon. In all the time I've had that proc (since 5th day of LDoN or so) I've yet to be in a single situation where the the lifetap made a difference.

[EZ_halbred2]

If I played a rogue I would add permafrost on all my weapons.

[EZ_saoshen]

I have the 125 ruj proc and I am very happy with it.. nice damage for less points than the 150dd and the ruj is rarely resisted.

[EZ_Panamah]

Quote: Anyone see better damage from poisons by using lifetaps that lower resists?


Augment lifetap lowers poison resists? I don't think so.

[EZ_saoshen]

I think he was referring to the resist adjusts...

edit: N/M I re-read, it appears he is misunderstanding and thinks that the resist adjust actually lowers the poison resist of the mob..

This is not true, and none of the procs will lower the resists or have any affect of use of poisons..
Edited by: saoshen at: 11/11/03 9:41 am

[EZ_Peon25]

The first augment I bought for my Rogue was the Heated Blade proc one.. 50dd, for only 40 points, and the adventure we did gave me 51 points... so after 1 mission, crappy exp, decent amount of cash, and a 50dd fire proc on my weapon, and I still had 11 points left.. not shabby, honestly.

[EZ_Thievin]

I never bought into the life-tap hype, so I added a Rujarkian Bile to my GRMK and a Radient Permafrost to my Ifir.

I typically only group with tanks from my guild or knights (cuz I'm too lazy to evade all the time anyway) and don't have any problems with agro. I'm extremely happy with all the extra damage I do from the procs and Ingen3.

I'd reccommend both to anyone considering adding dd proc's to their weapons.

Rujarkian Bile procs a TON in the main hand (with 305 dex) and not resisted much on any mob. For only 560 points (I think) this was a steal.

[EZ_Delghinn00]

Seems to come down to two "ideal" setups.. IMOA..

1590 AP for 125 LT
(75 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -25, 50 hp Lifetap vs. Disease -0)

- or -

1270 AP for 275 DD
(150 hp DD vs. Cold -25, 125 hp DD vs. Poison -10)