AL melee~

[EZ_ProphetOmniz]

One main question on arch lich fight.

He quads 700, rampages every round. Quad 700 is same as vindi, we use a 3 cleric, 5-6 second CH rotation on Vindi (tank is 8200hp max buffed, max defensive aa's).

We have no shot at fielding 6 clerics for 2 rotations (MT+RT) against AL any time soon (4 main clerics in guild, getting them all on + our 1 bot cleric would be an act of god), so do we have no chance againt him? I know we could agro kite, but it would seem that we'd waste as much if not more mana as a rotation from blast healing the kiter+RT ... any suggestions? Edited by: ProphetOmniz at: 10/1/03 12:58 pm

[EZ_kaladornus]

How about bumping up the mana regen on the 3 clerics and tanking with a 3 second Cheal Chain with the Same MA when he is off Defensive?

Quad 700 with Max Defensive AA's should be very, very low DPS.

4 clerics on a 6 second chain for 3 minutes and a 3 second chain for 3 minutes should be attainable if that is the amount of time your DPS needs to win.

Are you telling me that your clerics are completely OOM after 3 mins on Vindicator at 6 second CH rotation with a 8.2k Tank with max defensive AA's?

Does not compute....Our 3 clerics (one 65, one 56, one 53) only ran OOM (and only the 53 one, a bot) on Vindicator after 5 minutes and 17 seconds of Cheal Rotation on 2 Tanks. (one with 7k hit points and one with 7.4k hit points.)

This is with 19 people (only 14 doing real DPS)...

P.S. I can keep going hehe, We had No Paragon, No Bardsong, No Mindwrack, No Twitching...

Check again bud on Vindicator and try and keep your MA up for 6 minutes....see what happens.

Jakle
Iksar Overlord
Drinal Edited by: kaladornus at: 10/1/03 1:07 pm

[EZ_StevoWevo]

Rampage acts like a proc, so there's less healing needed for MT and RT. It takes like 12 seconds to recycle summon*, he'll get in 3-4 rounds as tank backs off if that if AL misses and doesnt stun the MT.

Keep him crippled too and he wont rampage nearly as bad, but he annuls himself. Kite, keep debuffs on, keep MT up, you win. He's 3 groupable with good dps, and ppl who know what they're doin.

*originally i said rampage in error. Edited by: StevoWevo at: 10/3/03 2:52 pm

[EZ_ProphetOmniz]

I'm not saying they're oom after vindi, I'm saying we can't field 3 more for the second rotation on the rampage tank. Only thing I can think of is to find a druid to put in instead of a cleric or something.

The problem isn't keeping one tank, or mana regen, its having enough clerics for the 2 rotations I'm assuming you need on AL (since he rampages every round) unless I'm missing something.

[EZ_kaladornus]

Your Druids could easily use their Blast Healing to keep the RT up bud.

You definitely don't take nearly as much damage as the Ramp Tank as you do as MA....

Hehe Stevo Beat me to it, but don't worry, you can keep that Tank up for sure.

If you are really concerned you could have a defensive warrior Ramp Tank, but better to allow a self-Healing Paladin (high hps) to Ramp Tank along with Two or Three dedicated Healers in that Paladins group.

Like Stevo said, get the Cripple on and the Rampage gets to be even less...

[EZ_Kaail Lasra]

pretty hard to run oom on a ch rotation nowa days, are you sure you got all your buffs set up right?

Protection of the Nine 8/tick
Spritual Dominion 9/tick
Voice of Quellious 18/tick
Chorus of Marr 21/tick(goes up to whatever with instrument?)

Paragon owns so hard if you can get that.

You're casters should not be running out of mana that fast

[EZ_Derrict]

druids can keep a RT up on AL with their incomplete heals. If they have mana issues, put your healers in with an SK. Yaulp VI / C5 / bard song / sk tap/ 9 / sd .. that should be more than enough mana regen.

[EZ_Daedrea]

Have druids and shaman heal the RT, its not that bad.

[EZ_GukMonster]

Quote:It takes like 12 seconds to recycle rampage

...

[EZ_Kalaks Fantasia]

I think he's speaking about summoning about that 12 sec refresh as there is MT backing off and AL missing also mentioned...


Kalaks

[EZ_GukMonster]

aah yes

[EZ_PaudenECI]

if your mt/rt can get lv65 LR 5 ID5 that helps a ton also

[EZ_Durok Warmhands]

For AL, you don't count clerics, you count *Paladins*.

The last time we did AL the clerics ended up mostly nuking. Clerics do nice damage on him too. Judging from the contents of our healing channel, we all enjoyed that.

The time before, we did him with like one cleric and a druid (I missed that one).

Paladins. Really.

[EZ_TantrikMT]

yep 2+ paladins makes him even more trivial

[EZ_Tubben]

Necros with Mindwrack are your friend =)

Tubby

[EZ_scrab1]

Quote:It takes like 12 seconds to recycle rampage, he'll get in 3-4 rounds as tank backs off if that if AL misses and doesnt stun the MT.

Wasnt this confirmed as a bannable exploit a while back by a_GM_0304?

What ever happened to that debate?

I am not trying to troll, just trying to find out what happened to the "legality" of this tactic.

I have considered this an exploit so we've always done 2 tanks. 1 on 6 second rotation (3 clerics), the other on 10 (1 cleric 1 druid). Both tanks max AA. Aggro load and AET because MT is stunned 60% of the time.

[EZ_ProphetOmniz]

If a 10 second CH rotation works on rampage tank then we'll have no problems, I am just confused as to how the rampage tank can take that much less damage than MT if you're 2 straight tanking him. Even if he's crippled he's still going to rampage 80% of melee rounds, at least. Rampage can still proc on a full round of misses, iirc.

And again with people mentioning mind wrack and stuff, my point is not our clerics running out of mana, just not having enough clerics to run a chain on our tanks with 2 tanking him. If a 10 second works on RT though, we can pull it off I think.

[EZ_Guno]

If u have a decent defensive AA tank (pal,sk,war) with 7.5+ hp one cleric can just chain CH RT.

Guno,
Gimp Archon of Darkmoons, Drinal

[EZ_Zxing]

He's a little harder to tank than vind, and his ae can really pose problems if your clerics get hit by it.

He also doesn't rampage every round, it just happens often.

[EZ_DaraminEQ]

He rampages most rounds... And he's rooted, not sure what you mean by agro kiting him.

Cripple works, but he anulls himself almost immediately, if you're going to keep him crippled you'll need two shamans doing that.

We do him with 4 clerics + 2 druids pretty easily.

[EZ_Heka01]

To be accurate a solo shaman (or enchanter) can keep him crippled with no real effort. He self annuls on a timer so crippling is worth doing, while it takes debuffs to land cripple it isn't all that hard.

2 Druids can easily keep your rampage tank alive.

[EZ_labiara]

Get your DEX debuff poison on him to reduce rampages.

[EZ_StevoWevo]

Yes i meant summon, not rampage, ill edit that

I dont see how aggro kiting is exploiting...

For DaraminEQ: Aggro kiting = letting MT gain aggro via spells/etc for a short period of time before everyone else engages. At 97% he start summoning, when this happens the MT just backs up. He'll summon every 12 seconds. If this was an exploit, im sure they'd just up the summon frequency to invalidate the tactic. Rooted mobs arent like traditional 'ive rooted x mobs' when it comes to the person the mob melees. A permarooted mob will only pay attention to the MT, and stand there and do nothing until he can summon and beat the crap out of him (thus proccing rampage).

[EZ_Keadaian Songborne]

It's called aggro kiting because it's like a kite group in PoV... sorta. One person builds massive aggro and runs away while the mob chases him. Meanwhile, everyone else can go nutso on the mob from behind and not draw aggro.

"perma rooted" mobs aren't actualy rooted. They have a movement speed of 0. That's why they don't act like player rooted mobs.

Whether it's an exploit or not, I'm with the side that says it's gimp.

As to the actual topic... The answer is "it depends".

You didn't give us nearly enough information. If your MT and RT are in plane of time gear, you won't need any clerics. If they're both in tov/kael armor and don't have most of their defensive aa's, you probably won't have enough with 4 clerics.

I would also suggest you consider having your tanks use evasive instead of defensive on this mob.

Asking a question like "how many clerics do we need for mob x" on this board is relatively pointless. Many of the posters here are in time guilds, many are in elemental, and quite a few are well below that level. Each of them will have a different response based on their own guild's ability/experience/gear when what you really want is information that will help you based on YOUR ability/experience/gear...

My current guild uses a tank w/ approx 8500 hp's as MT and warrior with about 7500 hp's as secondary tank. The MT has LR3 but no ID, the RT doesn't have CA 3 yet. We use a 3 cleric chain on MT and a 2 cleric chain on the RT, both use evasive disc. That's generaly more than enough healing and we don't really have much trouble with AL. My gut feeling is that we could do it with 3 clerics and 2 druids if push came to shove, but it would be a more difficult (and fun) fight that way.

[EZ_Jokskilove]

Like someone hinted, just let the paladins stun the momo. And if your guild has a cleric problem, recruit some druids - they perform quite well in pre-pop encounters...

[EZ_Zassk]

Quote:How about bumping up the mana regen on the 3 clerics and tanking with a 3 second Cheal Chain with the Same MA when he is off Defensive?

3 clerics can't do a 3 second CH chain.

Quote:4 clerics on a 6 second chain for 3 minutes and a 3 second chain for 3 minutes

4 clerics can't do a 3 second CH chain.

It takes 12.5 seconds + lag time, or about 13 seconds, to cast one CH and be able to start the next cast.

[EZ_Phantron]

I suspect abusing permarooted mobs isn't considered an exploit because these mobs are pretty much trivial anyway (especially by today's standards).

Even with the constant spam of rampage, the RT does not take nearly as much damage as the MT.

Could've sworn Arch Lich didn't dual wield. He's blue to 65 if I recall and that's not in the auto dual wield range. I seem to recall he's harder if he has a weapon because he will use it and start dual wielding and that increases his DPS considerably.

Unless your gear is horribly subpar for this encounter, level 65 HPs + buffs should easily bridge whatever gap you may have versus the guilds that did them back when level 60 was the level cap.

[EZ_MadroneDorf]

different guilds have different definitions for pause's...

for example on reparm some guilds use a "zero second" pause, which means they case as soon as they see their name, and it takes about 8 seconds to keep this up...

doesnt really makse sense unless u remember to factor in lag time/human reactions...

and some guilds call the same thing 1 or 1.5 second pause because thats the actual pause between the CH's, even tho using a /pause 10 or counting to 1 in head wouldnt work great cause of lag/human reaction.. theres probaly a standard way to say it but people generally call it what their guild does even tho it may not be unviersally understood

[EZ_kaladornus]

Hehe, watch what happens when you do ask 4 clerics to do a 3 second cheal chain. It will not be exactly 3 seconds, but it still seems like it to them

but yes, you are right, 3 clerics cannot do a 3 second chain...I was referring to his 3 clerics and the one bot he mentioned

[EZ_Phantron]

I remember the clerics were asked do a 1/2 second CH Chain once, and no there were not 25 clerics.

[EZ_Yenil Lenin]

You can do AL easy with 4 clerics/druids. Don't run a timed rotation on him either. We would always just use 2 healers on the MT and have them rotate heals at 80percent. Same thing for the RT, rotate heals at 80percent. It's hard to go oom on this fight.

[EZ_StevoWevo]

Actually ya the weapon he's wielding can factor into the strategy needed hehe... he can drop Tendonslicer, which will snare your aggro kiting MT .

[EZ_Marcalo DeUnero]

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Necros with Mindwrack are your friend =)

Except mobs that aren't Mindwrackable.. such as Arch Lich.
AL has something like a 400 disease resist, mindwrack is a disease based spell.
I can't land it on him at all, unless something's been changed since i killed him last, mindwrack is useless.

[EZ_simysima]

Quote:Except mobs that aren't Mindwrackable.. such as Arch Lich.

The one upside to pvp servers..

[EZ_Slartibartfast]

"Except mobs that aren't Mindwrackable.. such as Arch Lich.
AL has something like a 400 disease resist, mindwrack is a disease based spell.
I can't land it on him at all, unless something's been changed since i killed him last, mindwrack is useless. "

You don't cast it on AL. Duh. Ponder on this a while, you'll
figure it out.

[EZ_Acturian]

yay for ranger manapools

[EZ_LickaMahfeetz]

/pause 50 and it's pretty relaxed. Druids do a fine job keeping up a RT np, I've even done it with just two without difficulty. I'd stress paying more attention to the RT tho if you have an odd number of healers (If you had 5 total, 2 to MT, 3 to RT), because it's much easier to replace a MT than it is an RT unless you set multiples in an RT order. Paladins can stun but that takes all the fun out of the fight and for the full AL experience I'd discourage it (he's not even that hard). It gets really interesting when he has a Tendonslicer too.

[EZ_nadimeMT]

How many hps does he have?

[EZ_mrman823]

I had a few questions about the AL fight. First, did his knockback/stun cause any problems for anyone else? If so, how did you overcome it? Which way do you face him? We had him face away from door. Also, I am not sure how, but we couldn't seem to keep or get ramp set right. It was almost like he mem blurred himself lol.

We tried mem bluring AL before entering the room but when you /assist arch lich it never would drop people from his agro list. Any ideas why? We had 2 enchanters cast till oom to try and clear his agro and when you /assist him he always had someone targeted. Does this not particularly mean he has agro? After 3 or 4 mem blurs if he has someone targeted on /assist could his rampage list still be clean? My concern of course is for setting ramp correctly.

We screwed up the first attempt on him but got a cleric out and got back up and running. To attempt and make SURE we set ramp correctly we had everyone log out, had our MT and 2 rampage tanks log in and shoot arrows to set ramp, then had everyone else log back in. Once we did this we finished buffing and all that and engaged...I ran out from pillar to hide behind ledge (still hiding from AE) and wham I am taking rampage. I must of been like the 10th or so person to log in, PLUS we had the rampage tanks shoot arrows and they were the only ones in AL's room. How the @$#!$ was ramp not set right? We have done many rampaging mobs before and had no problems setting ramp, but this was almost a nightmare...especially on a mob that Ramps as much as AL >). This seems like a fairly easy fight for us if we could keep ramp on one or two tanks (maybe have one taking ramp if other gets knocked back/stun). Am I missing something here? Also, alot of people recommend going into AL's room after his guards are dead then blurring/setting ramp...won't u get proximity agro there and screw up your ramp list? Edited by: mrman823 at: 1/25/04 1:27 am

[EZ_Throag]

"Aggro kitting" AL with a SK was the reason why they nerfed distance aggro (ask any SK about that and they'll tell you how their pure aggro spells are @#%$ up) and reduced the summoning cycle on him in the first place.
"Kitting" him is not more effective than actually tanking him, as you can't predict the dps output.

[EZ_Kalaks Fantasia]

Been quite a while when I did AL last time. However I might be wrong, but I tend to recall that mem blurring did clear all of his aggro so that /assist didn't give any target.


Kalaks

[EZ_Mearis The Cowslayer]

A few things.

AL does not Quad for 700, he doubles, look at your logs.

He puts out around ~220 DPS on the MT and ~110 or so on the RT.

A single cleric can keep a 8k tank up for a long time against his rampage.

He was nerfefd to be no longer stunnable, so 'stunning' him to prevent him melee'ing no longer works.

3 clerics on a 7 second line on MT + 2 druids + random shammies for rampage will work without a zerg.

You can try to 'aggro' kite him, but it is more trouble than its worth as its fairly easy to steal aggro from him.

[EZ_mrman823]

I don't know what is going on with mem blurr then. My wife sits besides me playing an enchanter and she and another enchanter went oom casting mem blurr and /assist arch lich still brought up a target...I bet mem blurr hit him like 20 times. Any ideas why this is happening? This also happened to us on IV when we try to mem blurr the debuffer off IV's agro list, but we just relog the debuffer quick and /assist IV brings up no target.

Reading about his AE's it appears both are unresistable...I am surprised his AE Knockback / stun hasn't caused more trouble for folks with knocking back the RT's and keeping agro on MT. No one seems to mention this much...are we missing something simple here? Edited by: mrman823 at: 1/25/04 7:35 am

[EZ_KnightWard]

Use Lev on the MA/RT

[EZ_Acturian]

al's surprisingly not that hard , turn him towards a crypt stone, levi on mt, levi on rt, stick a few clerics in a pause 40ish chain, put a dru and a sham on rt , don't do something stupid like using defensive, and reduce his hp to 0 (all freaken 600k of it, painfully boring fight)

It is possible to keep him crippled, I just kept my shaman right on AL and crippled / Radiant cured every time it was needed. his dispel is something like 45 seconds, it's not that bad really.

and I'm pretty sure he quads just remember to turn him towards one of the crypt stones. And for the memblur problem.. you're leaving people in his agro radius. Also, his rampage distance ends on the wall, so if you can find a sweetspot on the wall + hide from the AE as a caster, you're golden. (also a great place for clerics to try and get off of ramps if they get on them)

[EZ_DemonMage]

Mem blur doesn't wipe the target from assist.

[EZ_Kalaks Fantasia]

Then it has been changed. It definately used to clear /assist.


Kalaks

[EZ_zotha]

Also dont use defensive, he has a high DB and a tiny DI, making defensive practically useless.

[EZ_ProphetOmniz]

after actually doing him ... yeah he's a joke. 1 cleric on rampage tank, 3 clerics doing an 8 second rotation on MT. Evasive disc like stated (tanks = 6300hp/1400AC unbuffed).

Biggest thing I think is he's level 63, which probably helps tank mitigation a ton. Either way his dps is crap, we could probably do him with 1 cleric on each tank, but havent had to try yet.

[EZ_Eelyen]

I bet he's one groupable now. Besides the 8 guards outside his room.

[EZ_Zk4r]

Quote:
We tried mem bluring AL before entering the room but when you /assist arch lich it never would drop people from his agro list. Any ideas why?

Rampage list.

Once on it, can't be changed, except by death, succor, or camping out.

Do not let your debuffers get put on Rampage List, or you'll fight sh!t unslowed and undebuffed until they get battle-rezzed.

Steel Warrior has best info on The Ramp List, sorry I don't have the URL handy.

Helps to put SK's and Monks on it... or Pallies... and, of course Warriors... but healers and debuffers are a big no-no.

All should camp and reform if you think the Ramp List is fuxxored.

Cheers.

[EZ_Sendaught]

Hmm, feign death and fading memories definately clear you from the rampage list and i'm 90% sure you can mem wipe to clear rampage as well.. unless something has changed recently. Just have a monk pull the room, tell nobody to heal or buff him and have no bard songs up.. then fd and voila, a cleared room with a fresh AL ready to set rampage.

[EZ_jocke98]

Was a while since I did luclin mobs but as I remember the mob didnt drop its /ass target even after successfull memblur, its a programming bug (or feature) so you cant be 100% a blur is successful.

after 8 memblurrs we usually called it safe and let the ramptank(s) plug the mob

[EZ_Phantron]

AL will quad if he is using a weapon.

Otherwise he just doubles.

[EZ_Ejryu]

Yeah, you won't get rid of the /assist from the blur, but you CAN get rid of his aggro...the only problem is that you don't really know until you get your real rampage tank up there after all the blurring is done. Camping out works wonders if you're that scared = )

[EZ_mrman823]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I think we found the problems we were having setting rampage and I agree this guy will be a gimp once we have rampage set. I will post how we do next time we fight him... I definately predict a win though!

[EZ_Dexail]

best way that i've found to set rampage for this is to kill the bard songs, and have your MT and 2 or 3 plate tanks pull AL's room after you clear the mobs past the traps.

[EZ_Phantron]

Just redid AL for fun recently. His toss back lowers endurance so you pretty much will only get one defensive type disc off him because he'd drain all your endurance before any of them refreshes. So if he's actually difficult for you, keep this in mind. I've heard people are able to redisc without endurance but when I tried to redo /evasive it wore off with 6 minutes or so on refresh time when I ran out of endurance which is way earlier than normal.