Dps on Gargoyle talon vs. LDoN dirk

[EZ_Jarset]

wondering if people have actual numbers and experience of dps difference from the 17/24 gargoyle talon compared with malevolent dirk with 2dmg upgrade (16/19) please post thoughts.

thanks
Jarset

[EZ_Aliskat]

A while back there was much talk about Garg Talon vs Wicked Shank (16/21, max BS%). I'm gonna use those comparisons even though the LDoN dagger is a bit faster (but doesn't max backstab so perhaps it's pretty similar to Wicked Shank).

On a pure ratio basis the 16/21 (and obviously the 16/19) have higher ratios and would be better for off-handing than 17/24 so if that's your quandry there's your answer.

If you are talking mainhand it gets a bit more tricky. In order to get the most benefit out of a 17/24 you need your attack to be fairly high, so you get those high backstabs. I believe people who parsed found that a Garg Talon parsed slightly better than a Wicked Shank vs PoP mobs and with attack ratings of 1600+. At lower levels the Wicked Shank caught up and below 1400 or so attack the Shank comes out ahead.

When fighting Ssra mobs and other rubbish with insane AC you will definitely wanna grab your faster weapon, but elsewhere I'd imagine they are pretty similar all other things considered.

Cheers,

Aliskat Smellikat

[EZ_Panamah]

I tried it out and the unaugmented Dirk doesn't beat Gargoyle talon, much to my dismay. Even though the ratio is better. /cry

I'll probably be getting the +2 damage augment fairly soon and at that point I'm sure it will. So I'll swap out GT until I get another source for haste, then I'll probably put MDD (Dr. Dirk as I call it) in my off-hand, GT in my main hand, and we'll see how it goes!

[EZ_Lemac Dushae]

Considering that WS tends to out damage GT by ~5 DPS, 3 of that DPS from the DoT alone, I'm tempted to give the nod to Dr. Dirk.

They should be pretty close on most PoP mobs, since GT will be able to land full stabs more often. In Ssra/VT (and the higher AC/Mitigation) I think Dr. Dirk would widen the gap further.

I think the test parses will need to primarily focus on the ~1500 ATK range. Under that number I bag the GT and go with MHT. Now hurry up and get that aug!

[EZ_Panamah]

I'll try to fix my parser too so I can get a Mean DPS too. All I'm really going on is hearing each fight's DPS and that just isn't good enough for a true bean counter like me!

[EZ_Shadowtiger]

Quote:
I tried it out and the unaugmented Dirk doesn't beat Gargoyle talon, much to my dismay. Even though the ratio is better. /cry


The 14/19 has a better damage ratio than the GT, but for main hand you have to count in the backstab damage, too, and the 17 damage GT does a SICK ammount of BS damage.

I would very much like to see some parse comparison of MDoD in elationship to the GT. Like these combos compared:

GT/WS
GT/RB
MDoD/WS
GT/MDoD

Where the MDoD is aug'd to 16/19.

Anybody seen any parse comparisons of those?

[EZ_Panamah]

Well, just updated my parser a bit so it gives me Mean DPS. I need to do a wee bit more testing to verify the numbers are correct. On one LDoN adventure I killed 44 mobs and my mean DPS was 150-ish with GT & RB. I was swapping in/out for avatar procs though.

On the next run it was 180 with GT &RB (46 mobs) and I didn't swap out for avatar procs, but I had ferocity on me most of the adventure.

I'm beginning to think swapping weapons for procs might be counterproductive. We shall see! I'll get more data for GT/RB combination, then I'll try Dr.D/RB

[EZ_Lemac Dushae]

Keep tabs on what ATK you're at for these adventures as well. GT doesn't start to really perform until you hit ~1500. Anything less than that and I'm certain Dr.D will take the prize.

[EZ_Panamah]

Ok, did about another 100 mobs in LDoN (Takish) and mean was still right around 176. I didn't have avatar or ferocity and really, there was very, very little change in my dps. Makes me wonder...

I think my attack was just under 1300 with GT/RB and no Ferocity or Avatar. Oh, but I did have SoV so that makes is 1350-ish.

So I think that in general, with GT/RB and no attack buffs and all your offensive aa's, probably 175-180.

Tomorrow we'll try Dr. D. with no augments.

I should be able to buy the +2 damage augment in a few days so we'll get to see the difference!

My gut feeling is that Dr. D. will clock in around 150 for me. Edited by: Panamah at: 10/25/03 3:36 pm

[EZ_Syldin]

I have zero doubt that 16/19 mainhand will hammer the dps of a 17/24 on any type of mob with any combination of attack.

The minimum damage is higher, the maximum damage is higher, the MN is higher, what more do you need ? ;p

[EZ_Cinzia Dakhor]

With the delay in mainhand there comes also the bonus damage to the formula. So the Dr.D could outdamage the GT, not sure if it is possible (only augmented i would think he can outdamge the GT)

For luclin fights you should always take the dagger with shorter delay. They have very highe AC and the faster weapons are the better choice then.

(i dont have parses of the weapons, i dont have the weapons, this is only what i readed in all the posts here in safehouse)

[EZ_Panamah]

Quote:I have zero doubt that 16/19 mainhand will hammer the dps of a 17/24 on any type of mob with any combination of attack.

The minimum damage is higher, the maximum damage is higher, the MN is higher, what more do you need ? ;p


I don't have the augment yet, dear. So, it's just 14/19. Better ratio but with the damage so low I think it'll be less damage over all because of backstabs. Edited by: Panamah at: 10/26/03 6:38 am

[EZ_Panamah]

Well, it was a terrible, terrible group and I know my DPS suffered from it. But the first testing with Dr. D was a mean of 139 dps out of 41 fights.

[EZ_Spyder AK]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, stop calling it Dr. D lol.

[EZ_Kootu]

i doubt a 17/24 can outdmg a 16/19. Back when I had Bloothbath (16/21), Acid poker (15/20) and GTalon, i did some parses swapping between BB, Poker and GTalon. Unless my parses are screwed, it went in this order;

BB/Poker > GTalon/BB > Poker/GTalon

I had all offensive AAs then, fero3, fota3, ambi... etc etc... and did the tests in PoTacs' Pit... however, i lost the log files as it was pretty long ago, like 3mths?

I now use Khal (16/20) and BB, and i still hold my belief that GTalon will never outdmg a 16dmg poker below 21dly with Fero3/Ambi. And not to derail, I notice there are no good daggers in POP below Sol Ro's tower. LMM's has a trade off of having huge aggro, i doubt people actually do 7th. GTalon is too slow and not worth the effort, WShank has a dot, which can be a good and bad thing. Regardless, someone prove me wrong if you can find one... :P

I hope i did not open a pandora's box... :x

[EZ_Panamah]

How about Dr. Dirk? I love that.

"Dr. Dirk, your radical rectotomy patient is ready!"

Still testing, but I think the 17/24 is going to be better than the 14/19. With the fires and stuff happening though, might be awhile before I get more tests done. Edited by: Panamah at: 10/27/03 7:10 am

[EZ_Shadowtiger]

Thanks for that info, Kootu: that was the kind of parse info I was looking for.

I'm looking at swinging my Gargoyle Talon main hand with a Wicked Shank off hand as soon as I can win a shank. That will likely be my mainstay unitl I can get a MDoD with the +2 damage aug (bringin it to 16/19), at which time the MDoD would replace the GT in main hand.

If people aren't completely sick and tired of racking up LDoN points after they are done getting the 16/19 MDoD, there is a rogue usable one hand blunt that is 15/20 base (Club of the Mad Researcher
Lore, Type:1hb, Dmg:15, Dly:20, Agi:15, HP:75, Mana:40, FR:10, DR:10) for 1150 points. This the same +2 damage aub (Pristine Emerald of Harm - whcih doesn't appear to be lore), bringing it up to 17/20 - a respectable off hand weapon. The only downside I can see with replacing a WS with the club (in off hand) would be the loss of 3% backstab mod (if you are already using the 9% mod on the MDoD)...but 17/20 in off hand would be some pretty solid damage.

[EZ_Khynd]

That's my plan right now. I have the 16/19 piercer, and the 15/20 1hb weapon, just need the aug now.

[EZ_Northerner]

Actually you won't lose any modifier that way Shadowtiger. Backstab mods don't stack, the highest takes precident or so I have always heard reported.

Personally, I've been saving up for the 16/19 but I now find that I think I'll take a pass. I do raid a little bit and I expect I'll eventually replace my GT mainhand through DKP instead of the AP. It isn't that the 16/19 9% is a bad weapon or anything, it is certainly superior to what I am using. I guess it is just that it does not seem to be all that much more special in some manner, perhaps because I would be just buying it with points (and I do appreciate the irony here).

For now I'm just building points as I unlock the various camps. By the time I eventually get miragul's fully open I'll reevaluate. For the moment though I am thinking I'll deck out a BP and perhaps that Takish mask rather than go for a new dagger in the near future.

[EZ_araxas xev]

I have both GT and augmented LDoN dirk, the LDoN dirk is doing more damage hands down. I dont have any direct comparison same-buff, same-target type parses to compare.

But on a typical LDoN mission with MDoD/WS the mobs on my parser range from about 140 to 220 DPS, most around 170-180 ish. When I used to use GT/epic it ranged from 110 to 180 or so with most around 140-150. My ATK has gone up only slightly between those times. I've gained probably around Veng XV since then but lost VIII from epic.. dont think that would account for such a huge difference.

Edit: Here is a very recent parse of the augmented LDoN dagger being used on easy setting mission. This particular parse is on the very low end of what my LDoN parses usually look like. As you can see from the amount of damage I took (DD and DD/s) our warrior was having major agro control issues and mobs were ping-ponging all over the place. With a SK/pally tank or a better geared warrior than the guy we had DPS goes up considerably from this parse. Link:

www.geocities.com/araxasvaz/mdod.htm Edited by: araxas xev at: 10/29/03 2:39 pm

[EZ_Panamah]

Ok, there is absolutely *no* question remaining in my mind that GT > unaugmented Dr. Dirk. By a lot. By about 35dps in fact. Tonight on 100 mobs in LDoN normal, I got 145 dps mean damage. That's taking 100 fights, and sorting them, picking the one right in the middle of them.

GT was 180 dps.

Buh Bye, Dr. Dirk, until I can buy the augment!

I should mention that the tested combination was:

GT/RB = 180
Dr. D/RB = 145

GT/Dr.D in main hand fyi. Edited by: Panamah at: 10/29/03 9:21 pm

[EZ_Panamah]

Woot! Got the augment last night. New parses incoming soon.

[EZ_redthegreat]

Thanks for all the hard work P! I am looking forward to having an idea of what to expect when I finally get that augumented dirk with RB in my off-hand.

Garumn

[EZ_Panamah]

Welll, my group made me pull so I can't really tell. Hopefully it isn't as bad as it parsed out... which was about 169 dps. But, I was pulling. GT was about 180. So hang in there, hopefully by mid-week I'll have some better parses.

Dang, it better be better than GT! All that work for the dagger and augment!

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote: That's taking 100 fights, and sorting them, picking the one right in the middle of them.

Er... that's not really a very good way of finding average dps.

Can I recommend trying out YALP or EQCompanion ? ;p

[EZ_Panamah]

Quote:Er... that's not really a very good way of finding average dps

You're right. It's not finding average dps, it's finding "mean" or Median dps. A different animal entirely.

I like it better than average as it eliminates the spikey highs and lows and things like finishing blow doing 32000 damage and such. I also tell it to only pay attention to fights lasting a certain length.

[EZ_AlisamIlano]

My Dearest Panamah,

I am thrilled that you are working on the scripts to provide better dps
calculations for rogues; however, you throw out statisical/geometric words
within conflicting contexts. I would like to establish an aggred upon
set of terms to help clear up any confusions.

average - the sum of the parts divided by the number of parts
mean - the sum of the parts divided by the number of pars ( see average )
median - the midpoint of the sample
mode - the most frequently occuring item in the sample

Here is a link to a quick reference on the differences between mean, median, and mode
www.shodor.org/interactivate/lessons/sm1.html

Ultimately, I think you are trying to get the weighted mean, but I just
want to know for sure.

Alisam
Deceiver of Undivided Faith
Drinal

[EZ_Panamah]

Mean in my dictionary says:
Quote:
adj.
Occupying a middle or intermediate position between two extremes.
Intermediate in size, extent, quality, time, or degree; medium.


Of course, it is an English language dictionary.

Fine then, median. Cripes, if I meant average, I would've said average.

/em writes in her book of grudges... I owe Alisam for one public humiliation.

Not sure what weighted mean is, so I can't tell you if I'm trying to get that or not. I was just a simple median number. That one, right smack in the middle of a whole list of 'em.

If you think I should calculate it different, lets hear your ideas, smarty-pants. Edited by: Panamah at: 11/4/03 8:07 am