XP fatigue in WoW... discuss

[EZ_Andorion]

Patch notes: www.worldofwarcraft.com/p...3-04.shtml

XP fatigue:

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To broaden and balance some of the gameplay elements, we've incorporated a few new features. One of them is the Rest State modifier, which gives players a time-limited bonus to combat (PvE) experience. This frees up time for exploring other aspects of the game without penalty, such as tradeskilling and social activities, and helps players avoid level-grinding. We've also added Inns, which serve as a good place to hang up your sword or staff for the night because they confer special bonuses. Inns also act as home locations, which our third new feature, Hearthstones, take advantage of. Hearthstones provide a speedy way to travel back to an Inn when you need to take care of business in town or when you're ready to check in and call it a night. The basics of these new features are covered below.


Rest State

The Rest state modifier only affects experience earned from killing monsters. It does not affect experience earned from quest rewards or other experience rewards in the game (such as future PvP experience rewards).

As players kill monsters and gain experience points, they become increasingly tired. Their rest level reflects this tiredness in five tiers: well rested, rested, normal, fatigued and exhausted.

Well-rested players receive bonus experience points for killing monsters. Rested players receive a smaller bonus. At the normal rest level, players receive no bonus experience points for killing monsters. Fatigued players receive half of the normal experience points from their kills, and when exhausted they will receive a quarter of normal experience from a kill.

To become well rested and start earning bonus experience from killing monsters again, players must either log out or rest online at an Inn (see below) for several hours.

Thanks to the comforts of a warm bed and a hearty meal, players who rest or log out at an Inn can regain energy up to the maximum level: well rested (it takes 8 hours to go from exhausted back to well rested). Players who log out anywhere else in the world will only regain energy up to the normal level.

Note that while your character is resting at an Inn, you can play other characters on your account. The rest state is per character only.


Inns

Players can rest or log out at any Inn in the world.

Inns will be located in all major cities and some towns.

Whenever players enter an Inn or log out at an Inn, they will effectively be "resting," which is indicated by their portrait flashing yellow.

Players can leave an Inn at any time and continue fighting monsters; the experience they gain will be based on the Rest level that they have rested up to.

If players log out in an Inn, they will be able to instantly exit the game as opposed to having to wait 20 seconds before exiting.

When players log in to play the next day, their well-rested characters will have slept off the ill effects of any nasty debuffs from the day before.


Hearthstones

Players use Hearthstones (an inventory item) to cast a spell that teleports them back to their "home locations." Casting the spell will take a reasonable amount of time, to prevent it from being used as an escape mechanism from combat.

"Checking in" with an Innkeeper will make that Inn the player's current home location, and the player's Hearthstone will then take the player back to that Inn (as opposed to any previous home locations). If the player doesn't have a Hearthstone, the Innkeeper will provide one at no cost.

Because Hearthstones let players quickly return to town, players can easily log off from within an Inn when they're done playing for the night (or day). If they so choose, players can also use Hearthstones just to return to town to sell items, trade, or train. However, Hearthstones can only be used once per hour.

Having home locations in the game will let us incorporate other spells that teleport players to these locations, such as how Astral Recall worked when we had bind stones.

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~Berj Edited by: Andorion at: 4/15/04 9:02 am

[Fricka]

Still downloading here so no in game experience yet.

However, I'm willing to give rest a chance. I like the inn concept that is coupled with it.

The Hearthstones seem like they'll be useful.
~Fricka
Fricka curtsies elegantly...while picking yer pocket.
Shanks
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[notwen]

From the perspective of general application of the concept in MMORPGs, I like it. By making an extended grind session unprofitable, it takes out much of the frustration I associate with the genre.

I know some people like to grind...but I don't think there are many of them. I think most people will appreciate the fact that they won't be feeling forced to do the grind, just to hurry up and {get to the end game, keep up with the Joneses, get that next spell/ability yesterday}.

[EZ_Lurik]

Based on the way it's currently implemented and the info I have from the official Beta boards, it's jacked up. It's horrible, it's totally lame.

Some info:

It currently takes 8 hours to go from ANY state to Well Rested. Did you just fall into the rested catagory? Well now if you log at an Inn it will take 8 hours to get to Well Rested, even though you were well rested 5 minutes ago.

Official word:
"Its not broken, its working as intended. It always takes 8 hours to become fully rested. The 8 hours is meant to match your real world time sleeping, not a mechanism to min/max to eek out the most experience out of the system.

-Eno "

And a players research reveals the following

"So to sum up -

1. "200 bonus" exp is in fact just the old exp rate, and as soon as you drop off of it down to HALF the old rate you have to "rest" for 8 hours to get it back.

2. Exp required to level has been increased 76%, with quest exp changed to match it, but not mob exp. Therefore, killing mobs even at the "200% bonus" rate is now only 24% as effective for gaining exp as it was before.

3. You have to kill mobs to get skill points. Quest exp does not award skill points - player is therefore forced to choose between levelling speed and skill point acquisition, and unless there are skill caps doing quests gimps your character.


We still lack some data, but it sure seems incredibly complicated, rather sneakily misrepresented, and... well, bad. ;( " - Joker on WoW's official beta boards


It needs serious tweaking. SERIOUS tweaking if not complete removal. When something is so bad that it can cause a fanboy of the game to have doubts about buying the game come retail, then you have a problem as a designer. Nothing about your game should be that stand-off'ish. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[DarthEnder]

Meh, if it takes 8 hours to rest. Then fully rested to normal better last about 16 hours.

Otherwise I don't have a problem with it. Even with what Lurik said. Since leveling was too fast anyway.

And I like that it will make Inns into centers of community. The Inn nearest a popular hunting area will most likey be full of players looking for groups. I like that. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 4/15/04 11:34 am

[EZ_Lurik]

"Meh, if it takes 8 hours to rest. Then fully rested to normal better last about 16 hours."

It's not time based, it's exp gained based.

If you are Well Rested and gain 2k (actual figure I read from a tester) exp in 30 minutes, you are now at Rested and will have to be at an inn for EIGHT hours to get back to Well Rested.

"And I like that it will make Inns into centers of community. The Inn nearest a popular hunting area will most likey be full of players looking for groups. I like that. "

If they are in the inn they won't be looking for groups, because they're fatigued and grinding would not be effective. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply AssassinEdited by: Lurik at: 4/15/04 11:36 am

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:Based on the way it's currently implemented and the info I have from the official Beta boards, it's jacked up. It's horrible, it's totally lame.

First, It only seems to be lame for people who want to be instantly at the endgame. For those who enjoy the game for the fun it provides, who cares if you're at lvl 10 or lvl 50?

Sure, I plan on leveling up when I play, but I'm not in any huge hurry.

Second, If they have way more content than levels to complete it in, wouldn't it make sense to make leves take more xp?

The only downside I can see to this is needing to rest to "full rested" I'd like to see the system where you rest to the next level, or have some sort of "fatigue points", where resting removes them.

[EZ_Lurik]

The simple fact that to be productive you have to eventually STOP PLAYING the game for 8 hours is the problem I have.

We all played EQ, it took me a year to get to lvl 50 and by then lvl 60 was the cap. I had fun doing it. I could go out and grinding WHENEVER I wanted. If I, meaning me the real life person, was tired of grinding I usually hit up EC tunnel to trade or gathered junk from as many as 5 zones for smithing. Then I could go back to grinding whenever I felt like it.

In WoW, the scenario would play like this: My *character* is tired of grinding, but if I go do some tradeskill gathering etc, he's still tired of grinding, his clock isn't ticking. If I went from town to town trading, he's still tired, his clock isn't ticking. I have to actually sit in an inn for 8 hours before grinding would be efficient/effective. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[EZ_Ciba]

If I read your post right, your only problem is that you want to be able to do some tradeskills and THEN go kill mobs with the exp bonus.

This seems valid, maybe if they fixed it so that the clock didn't start ticking until you started killing monsters, would that work?

That's really the only downside I see. They seem to want you to do your killing when you first log on, and your tradeskills/questing before you log off.

Overall I like the idea. It makes it so the person that can only play 2-3 hours at a time can get some real xp. I hated the time it took to find a group in EQ.

[EZ_Mythas Grimlore]

with fatigued characters you think its going to be easier to find a group??

[EZ_Lurik]

There is no clock, it goes by how much exp you gain. This is possibly the only + to the entire system at it's current implementation.

So I can tradeskill BEFORE I grind? Poissibly. If I'm a skinner can I? No. Because to skin you have to kill mobs, and killing mobs = gaining exp. So skinning = killin your well rested state. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

How do you see this as promoting exp for people who only have 2-3 hours to play/day? I dare say it does nothing of the sort. If you are LFG then you aren't killing thus you aren't really getting fatuiged.

If I am in a group which I likely formed, then the entire group will likely be fatiuged at the same time, or others will drop early. The group all gets the same exp thus we all fatiuge at the same rate.

[EZ_Lurik]

Wanna hear something (extremely not)funny?

Apparently, leaving the inn resets your rest timer.

"It's absurd that you can spend 7 hrs resting, go kill one mob and then you have to spend another 8 hrs resting because your "rest" timer was reset.

It's absurd that you can't help a friend w/ a quest because you might reset your timer.

It's absurd that you can run from the Goldshire Inn to the Stormwind Inn during your 8 hour rest period and that will reset the timer.

It's absurd that a gaming company feels the need to tell people when they can and can't play a game. "

A Blizzard employee responded that some of these points are valid. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[EZ_lenardo]

actually lur it will change how skinners work.

kill spawn that give no exp to skin...thus you can skin all day and not lose a rest state. Brother Lenardo Draconis
65th Transcendant of the Celestial Fists
The First Seal
The Nameless
Magelo

[EZ_Lurik]

"actually lur it will change how skinners work.

kill spawn that give no exp to skin...thus you can skin all day and not lose a rest state. "

I was under the impression that higher lvl mobs had better skinning uses. I suppose I was wrong though. Thanks for that info. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[EZ_Ciba]

I think I get it now. I still don't understand the problem. If the rest status is based on xp, who cares if you get that xp slowly by skinning mobs, or quickly by fighting tough stuff in a group?

Now, I'm basing my assumption on the xp bonus/penalty being individual, and not impacting the base xp the group gets from each kill.

I just think you're so accustomed to the way EQ has set your expectations you can't see how this can be a good thing.

Still, nobody has told me how this is a BAD thing, with the exception of powergamers. Is the game only fun to you if you're level 50? I'm sure it's not.

Quote:with fatigued characters you think its going to be easier to find a group??

Quote:How do you see this as promoting exp for people who only have 2-3 hours to play/day? I dare say it does nothing of the sort. If you are LFG then you aren't killing thus you aren't really getting fatuiged.

No, I think it pushes the xp benefit towards the first few hours of hunting. If you argue that xp should be proportionate to time played, think about EQ. Who gets more xp, the wannabe vampire that plays 12 hours at a time, or the guy who logs in three times, 4 hours each? I think we all know the answer.

Quote:It's absurd that a gaming company feels the need to tell people when they can and can't play a game. "

I don't see the system doing anything of the sort. You can still play for 24 hours straight, you just get diminishing returns.

Quote:Apparently, leaving the inn resets your rest timer.

"It's absurd that you can spend 7 hrs resting, go kill one mob and then you have to spend another 8 hrs resting because your "rest" timer was reset.

It's absurd that you can't help a friend w/ a quest because you might reset your timer.

It's absurd that you can run from the Goldshire Inn to the Stormwind Inn during your 8 hour rest period and that will reset the timer.

Agreed, this needs fixing.

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

Quote:I don't see the system doing anything of the sort. You can still play for 24 hours straight, you just get diminishing returns.

Or you can play for 4 hours straight and get diminishing returns or if you have a super group you might play for 1.5 hours and STILL get diminishing returns. Why, because your group hit the fatiuge bar to fast, you were too good....

Quote:Still, nobody has told me how this is a BAD thing, with the exception of powergamers. Is the game only fun to you if you're level 50? I'm sure it's not.

This is why;

If I am playing the game by the stated rules, I am not exploiting and I am enjoying myself. Why should I be penalized for playing for X amount of time ( time being equal to amount of exp I earn).

People say this helps the casual player stay in range of the "hardcore/powergamer". Thats a cop out. You know why those people are "hardcore" or powergamers, because they put in a bit more effort than the average player. They make sacrafices that most people will not. this whole idea smacks of catering to whiners.

" I should be able to get the uberleet gear cause I paid my 12.99!!!"

Well Timmy you can IF you put forth the effort to get to a point where you and your guild are capable of tackling that encounter.


Just because you pay the same amount of money as a "powergamer" does NOT entitle you to the same loot, without similar effort. It DOES entitle you to have the oppurtunity to develop your character to a point where you can attempt the same encounters as any other player. The biggest thing seperating the casual and the hardcore in EQ is the control of spawns, if a certain guild wanted they would control a mob indefinately (sp), that can't happen in WoW with instancing.

I don't understand why anyone would want a crutch that holds back other players from playing the style they want, especially if that crutch is designed so that I ccan keep in range of that other player. That is insulting to me and to the other player, it says I am such a bad player that you have to handicap the game in my favor, thats why I am against rest.

[EZ_Drosenj]

Quote:"They make sacrafices that most people will not."

Like a job or life Edited by: Drosenj at: 4/15/04 1:30 pm

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

/shrug

that is there choice, as long as it doesnt effect anyone else who are we to say whether its right or wrong ?

[EZ_Ciba]

Think about it in eq terms. At 65, the disparity between a uberguild player and a casual player acts as a barrier to player interaction. I agree that the top players should get greater benefits, but the question of the extent of those benefits should be in question.

I simply see this as one step in accomplishing that goal.

[EZ_Mythas Grimlore]

I deffinately agree. On the weekends i have a large amount of time to play. I usually do all my "Grinding" on those days. I raid during the week as my job is a 5 am - 4 pm. Of course i do some leveling there too, but not nearly as much as i do on the weekend. This really really really hurts those with similar play styles.

I also which ever blizz employee said that even if you kill 1 mob it takes you 8 hours to get well rested is "working as intended" will be eating his foot here soon...I really didn't appreciate his attitude on the boards.

Please, lets not bring in the "life / job crap" because we all know at some point we all play games and we all do have lives. Just because your bitter and jaded that your 40 have a job and kids and can't play games all day long doesn't give you any room to look down upon those that do. Heck, even i can't play games all day long and i bet i have a longer work week than most here.

[freonsmurf]

Why on earth would a company encourage people to log off the game?

Even worse, why would a company encourage players to sit in a room and do nothing? Whats next? Some horrible mini-game in a frickin "rpg"?


I can't even get over the concept that they would actually put a system in the game that might force a player to sit in an Inn for 8 hours.



Again, this is beta and a patch I dont want to jump to conclusions but........

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

The barrier to player interaction is the players. Lets not lie to ourselves. If I am an uber and I am fatuiged for today, i am logging, i am not going to stay online for 8+ hours to chat with someone if I don't want to. I am not going to log on to chat with random_person_01.

No offense but if I want to interact with you I will, Blizzard can kiss off the moment they try to "encourage" read force me to interact with anyone.

Uber players got to that point because they were/are more FOCUSED than other players. By the standard Blizzard is putting out, there should be a server wide level range, if a char is over the lvl range (say 35, and the range is 20-30) then that level 35 char needs to get dropped to 30, and anyone under 20 needs to be beta buffed to 20. To force interaction.

This system servers no purpose, if I want to interact I will, if I want to grind untill my eyes bleed I will, if I want to sit on my ass for 27 hours a day I will. But I should be able to do any of thing in game (thats not an exploit cheating, hurting others) WITHOUT penalty. PERIOD.

[EZ_Drosenj]

I understand your point, and know all to well the pressure to grind and get to the end. I believe this is a system that will not be on all servers, but will be on enough to satisfy the "RP" or casual gamers. They have to test it out at some point, doesn't mean it will go live.

Let them beta test it, get it tweaked and see if it is worth putting in their game. I think it is awesome that they are trying new ideas and attempting to make the game "played-as-intended", while not making any of us pay for it.

This does give me hope that they are confident in their content, afterall, what is a level 50 character in 2 weeks without content? If they force me to play their game, and it is fun, I will be happy. I am willing to wait and see tho, Blizzard has yet to disappoint me.

[EZ_Zetrius Wolf]

Personally, the whole idea of slowing the process with diminishing returns intrigues me. But then again, I've been entreating companies for a mmoRPG for a long time. (Particular attention to the caps.)

EQ was ridiculous, and the disparity of power and zone usage insufferable. Slowing the game down so everyone isn't in five different "zones" ala EQ is a good thing, not to mention the returns on player interaction and roleplaying. Sure, it won't appeal to power-gamers. But isn't it about TIME we saw a game meant for role-players or casual players?

There are more casual players than you think. Powergamers are not where the market is. And it is often the powergamers that are the so-called "whiners," as someone alluded to earlier.

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

There are MANY ways to slow the progress of players w/o forcing them to be penalized, like this. Just spread out the exp, make grinding worth less exp than other types, don't make 5 zones where EVERYONE goes to grind (ala LOIO > FM > DL > KC etc....). Design the game so that the lower levels are AS content orientated as the upper levels. I had so much fun in my 20-40s was unbeliveable, BUT I wanted the upper end game because 1. I had done all that i could for my level, 2. I like to push to see just how far I can go. Now that may not be your play style and thats totally acceptable, I want you to play how you play. But I ask that I be allowed to play how I want to play w/o penalty also.

[EZ_Zetrius Wolf]

I'm not stepping on your play-style. The fact of the matter is, there are hordes of games that cater to that style. It's nice to see a game go the other way.

So you don't like it; don't play. Not every game can appeal to the same people over and over again if one expects a modicum of success.

If I didn't like something, I wouldn't play it. I wouldn't moan about it. Sure, there's a point you should make -- because it shifted gears and changed the way you play the game and now doesn't appeal to you, and that's viable -- but don't cowardly blame roleplayers and casual gamers for it. They're a market, and something a little different, and not enemies. They're gamers too.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:1. I had done all that i could for my level, 2. I like to push to see just how far I can go. Now that may not be your play style and thats totally acceptable, I want you to play how you play. But I ask that I be allowed to play how I want to play w/o penalty also.

1) I agree, there should be enough content to consume as you level.

2) Actually, I was a bit of a powergamer myself, participating in many "server firsts" over a several years. I am looking at this as a powergamer that wants quest content. I absolutely loved raiding in eq. I enjoyed quests even more. The problem was, raiding and quests did not go together. Most of the quest content was geared towards lower level characters.

I think Blizzard is betting that players will want to consume their quest content rather than grind. The players that powerlevel to 50 will just bitch about lack of content and then quit. These customers don't do Blizzard much good in the long run, do they?

[EZ_Itzena]

Gold star for Ciba: *

If people want a game where grinding xp from mobs is the One, True Path for character progression, well..there's EQ. Itzena Alhazared, Revenant of <Planeteers>;
Vallon Zek.Edited by: Itzena at: 4/15/04 3:30 pm

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

If I as a player/powergamer want to quest as I level then the quests again need to balance risk/reward. I can almost guarantee you that any powergamer will quest IF the reward is worth the effort, even to the point of not grinding. But the trick is making it worth the effort, the exp, the quest item, the time to quest ALL have to be there. And those are what was lacking from the vast majority of EQ quests, some that do stand out are Strenght of the Elements, Certain Epics, Dwarf rings (possibly Dorf Shawl), Chardok quests etc. Again with proper balance of risk/reward there is no need to implement the rest feature.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

This is resting system has brought out the the whiningest group of "hardcore powergames" ive ever seen.

Are your hard or fricken cry babies.

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

Could be just discussing a game mechanic...

[EZ_Healo]

I know I won't be buying it if this goes live on all servers. My one day to play games is on Sunday's. If I want to play WoW for 4+ hours then it seems I'm screwed. I also really don't like doing quests that much. Im sure there are alot more players liek me that they will lose because of this. I really don't have the time on weekday's to play games.

[EZ_Lluain]

/sigh...really folks, do you really think blizzard with its years of game design and game playing would put in a game mechanic that they've tested in house that is doomed to fail utterly; this isn't even coming from a 'fanboi' or what have you, you're simply treating the dev team like a bunch of morons.

In terms of this 'rest period', lets pretend that we're all human, and as humans we need sleep, you know what that is right? Good, moving on, this rest period and your sleep (which i can only assume you will be doing daily) can quite easily cooincide, as you've got these handy 'hearthstones'...are you done for the day? Just go back to the inn, log out, and sleep. This is the concept, they don't actually want you logging out during your play period, should that be the other 16 hours of the day, just so your character can rest, and this is something which I'm sure will be balanced to everyone's liking.

If there's one change I'd make, it's to shorten the rest period (not everyone needs that 8 hours), but other than that, it's a damn smart idea (it makes inns a gathering point and stopping point for the night, very RP) and does in fact have that minor bonus of slightly evening the playing field for hardcore and casual players (although this is a minor side effect, most of the xp still comes from quests, and the xp hit is going to be minimal at worst)

edit: Additional point, Kat has a quote on the forums saying that skill point progression (which is now shaping up to match AAs, ie. they are not capped and are bound only to mob grind XP) are not affected by fatigue, so while your level progression might have slowed for the day, you can still grind for skill points if you are so inclined. Edited by: Lluain at: 4/15/04 5:27 pm

[Llabak Tharr]

Qut, if that's the best you have to offer this discussion, go back to the main lounge. Heck, if that's the best you have to offer, go to the druid's grove or something and pester them.

[Thwick]

Quote:In terms of this 'rest period', lets pretend that we're all human, and as humans we need sleep, you know what that is right?

Uh....what if we're undead? Hah, just messing with you. I get the point you're making of someone or something getting tired of running around in heavy armor and swinging weapons/slinging spells for hours on end

[EZ_Lluain]

Quote:Uh....what if we're undead? Hah, just messing with you. I get the point you're making of someone or something getting tired of running around in heavy armor and swinging weapons/slinging spells for hours on end

Not only in a RP sense, but also in a human in front of the screen sense, everyone who plays the game I assume is also going to sleep at some point.

edit: my sig is showing up, I guess 'cause I logged in, getting rid of it 'cause sigs are overrated. Edited by: Lluain at: 4/15/04 5:34 pm

[freonsmurf]

I guess I just have to log in before I go to work....

hehehe

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

I wore out my good comments on a 6 page thread on vanguards forums.

Consider this if you seek wisdom:
From what I can tell a powergamer had 0 home in WoW before this change. Everyone that was trying was at the level cap and quickly.

Yet somehow this "powergamer" crowd has characterized this as a nerf to them. What nerf?

The biggest watch I had slated for WoW was wondering if they were going to make it hard. This change actually made this game harder. Yet powergamers have grandstanded this into a nerf? How can a change that makes a game harder be against me if im hardcore?


There.

Ive been to where this arguments going =)

[notwen]

I'll explain why I like the *idea* of a rest period, if not this particular implementation.

It's not because I can't or won't put in the time or the effort. In fact, I will if they let me. If I *can* grind, I'm going to, but I'm going to hate it, just like I did in EQ. But I'm gonna do it anyway, because I want that next level, to keep up wth friends, to be all I can.

Now maybe the better answer is to make the grind fun. I won't argue with that. I'm just not sure how feasible that is. Ultimately it's their game and if they think the best answer is to guide people away from the grind with a rest period then ok.

That said... the way this is currently implemented DOES sound jacked up. 8 Hours to get back to fully rested from any level of fatigue? That's insane, and doesn't sound anything like approaching fun. They've been adament from the beginning that their underlying design philosophy is that at any moment in the game you should be able to answer yes to the question "Am I having fun?" Sounds like this is making a LOT of people say "No." I have faith they will go back to the drawing board with this.

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

Ok lets say we all are human (even the 8' Minatour with a tree trunk), we have been working out all day. You suffer some form of penalty, now do you loose the ability to learn or do you get Fatiuged (ie slower, less power behind the swings, memory is fading, harder to concentrate)?

I understand the point of the system, I can see why they would want to put it in. I feel that messing with exp is simply a BAD idea, want me to loose DPS, and Damage mitigation, ok I can see that, want my spells to become less effective, med time to increase, I can see all that, but don't touch my EXP.

If they changed the system to less concrete penalties I can go with it, in addition it would make raiding MUCH more intresting, but don't touch my exp.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Consider this cause people act like theres no room left to be leet.

If you are in the crowd that can get up and play 2 hours then log off to rest 8 then log on to play 2 to 3 more. You are going to have serious advantage on those that cant play like that with 8 hours between 5 hours a day.

I dont see how this is a nerf to powergaming. These road blocks are just means to gain a time lead advantage by altering your RL to play time in ways that other players cant. If there is anything to learn from MMORPGs is that a time lead advantage early on can be milked for a long long time.

Obstacles to the general population are nothing but opportunity for those that are truely powergamers. Im just not buying this. This change made this game more interesting to me.

[EZ_Lluain]

^ hmmm, I think I should congratulate the two of you on missing the point entirely, I could be wrong myself however, I suppose time will tell.

edit: two people above Qut Edited by: Lluain at: 4/15/04 5:46 pm

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

8 hours to get back to fully rested from any rested state doesnt make sense to me either. And I saw the developer explanation too and im not buying. I think that developer needs to do some hardwork and figure out what the difference between being wore out fatigued and being just tired is.

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:f people want a game where grinding xp from mobs is the One, True Path for character progression, well..there's EQ.

Actually I would recommend L2 rather than EQ for that honor.

It's level grind makes EQ look like a wimp

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:"Am I having fun?" Sounds like this is making a LOT of people say "No."

Actually, there hasn't been a lot of people saying that.

There are a lot of people saying 'I have never tried it and I am not going to try it and I don't need to try it to know that it sucks and no matter how it is implemented or whether it will affect me or not it still sucks.'. Some people saying 'It took me 3 hours to lose the highest level bonus category' and some people saying 'Here is a random example I made up with numbers pulled out of my butt that I haven't tested and have no intention of testing and it PROVES that this idea sucks'.

I would say give it a week at least and read what some of the people who actually tried it have to say.

[EZ_Kireiina]

I think it's brilliant, seem to be the only one though From what I can see it is *not* about punishing the power gamer, rewarding the casual or limiting character progression. Nor is it about forced socialisation, who's really going to sit in an inn for 8 hours? It's entirely about changing playstyle, and if you honestly like camping a spawnpoint then you're out of luck.

In all games I know of the best XP is chain pulling optimally levelled melee only mobs in a controllable environment. This is the EQ model. WoW introduced quests as a way of generating XP but it was still faster to ignore them and find a spawn to grind because of the raw efficiency that approach offers.

The goal of this change, IMHO, is that even the most agressive power gamer seeking to maximize their XP gain will attempt to balance quest and kill XP to make the most of the fatigue available in a given session. The end result being that blizzard will encourage power gamers to come out of their dungeons and do some questing.

Long term this should have a good effect because people will not have to choose between questing or maximizing there XP. Instead they'll be encouraged to choose questing and maximum XP. It's really clever.

Heck, it even potentially solves the EQ problem of "we can't group with you because you drop our kill rate". If the XP is from quests, where utility is important, and you'll kill enough to drain your fatigue anyway, then maximum kill speed might be less valued.

[Koru]

The idea of something like this is not a killer for a game. I've played games with similar mechanics and had great deal of fun in them. The limit took some of the rush mentality out of those games, which was nice. It all depends on how it's implemented. But damn, resting for several hours does sound a bit harsh.

I think I'd prefer a system of a counter for activity with each time unit spent resting in an Inn doing straight subtracting of fixed amount from that counter, with an 8 hour rest/log off being automatic reset to 0. As I understand it now it's required that you do the 8 hour rest before you recouperate from any state to well rested? That's too much, way too much. You bet yer arse the people resting for that long are NOT going to spend all that time socializing in the Inn.

[EZ_Lindianae]

What would concern me about a system like this is joining groups that are already going. This happens to me all the time in eq. We have an established group that hunts together. I always get on at least an hour after they start and can just join then no problems. A system like this would make that not work. They would have already been hunting for an hour so when I join they might not have long left and I get to xp for a much shorter time.

[EZ_Lurik]

"Why on earth would a company encourage people to log off the game?

I can't even get over the concept that they would actually put a system in the game that might force a player to sit in an Inn for 8 hours." - Wix

Discussion could have ended here as everyone stopped to realize what Blizzard is doing doesn't make sense.

There's no need to micro-manage the arguments and look at example A, and example B when the idea is fundamentally flawed from the beginning.

You have tons of content? Gee, I wish I could go out and check it out, right now I'm stuck in this Inn for 8 real life hours. If I did go out it would be detrimental to my characters progression not only level wise, but also trade skill wise (you can't get tradeskills without grinding mobs).

Maybe everyone who doesn't see a problem with this Rest State idea should just ask if they could just control some NPC who can't attack and just walks around the world looking at things and talking to people, but never actually playing the game. Lurik Crim`Tal
Simply Assassin

[EZ_Maladen]

I just do not understand the mentality that oh no I am not making the max xp possible so I would rather make 0 and log.

This is beta. It is time for them to try out new ideas and mess with things.

I applaud blizzard for trying to add some elements to the game that make it slightly different.

I will reserve judgement till I play it myself (if it ever gets to that point).

Maybe in a month or 2 it will be removed, changed, or the studios hit by a comet. Until then though might as well just see how it plays out and certainly not pass any judgement if you can not even play it.

[EZ_Vendrix]

Quote: If I did go out it would be detrimental to my characters progression…
I’ve seen the word “detrimental” used a few times during this discussion, and, of all words, it’s the least applicable to what actually happens with this fatigue system (I have the same basic understanding of it as every other non-beta person here).

Detrimental means harmful, which this system is not. It’s not like you lose XP if you play for a long time, no amount of time played will ever remove XP from your pool… you just gain less if you choose to play for an extended period of time. The only people who this might be a problem for are the people who hit the game hard at release with absolutely no knowledge of quests. If you know which quests are applicable to your level, you can grind mob XP until you drop below ‘normal fatigue’ and then quest (quest XP is unaffected by fatigue).

I’m not saying it’s a perfect system at the moment, but it’s also not ‘detrimental’ in any way, shape or form. Blizzard needs people to play around with it so they can fine-tune the system. They need to determine what they think is a reasonable amount of XP within each bracket (well rested, rested, normal, etc.) and those brackets should definitely not be linear. For example, you should stay at ‘well rested’ for, let’s say, 7,000xp, then ‘rested’ for 15,000xp and then ‘normal’ for 35,000xp and so on.

Even if you find the sweetest XP spot in the entire game, you shouldn’t drop from ‘well rested’ to ‘rested’ in less than 5-6 hours. As long as it’s possible to slay mobs in an efficient manner and stay above ‘normal’ for 10-12 hours of playtime, I’ll be happy.

Just my two-cents… Marauder Melvyn Muk - Conquest
Gnome Rogue of Doom!
Don't lose sight...

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

This maybe an attemt to change peoples playsyle, but you can't force that. People will play how they want regardless of what others may think. WoW will always have people who grind for DAYS, and people who do nothing but quests, and tradekillers, etc etc. You can't change that, I can't change that, and I assure you Blizzard can't change that. I like that Blizzard is willing to go out on a limb, I just don'tthink this one is going to hold.

[freonsmurf]

Who cares about powergamers or casual gamers...

People play a game to have fun, and being forced to sit in an Inn for even one hour is not fun.

[EZ_Sorador]

When i'm off of work i most of the time want to play a game that i enjoy the greater portion of the day, with this rest system i might get a few hours in with a character and after that i would have to log him out, right? ..... from what i've read the resting is character specific, so pretty much what i would have to do is have 2 or 3 alts and level all of them up about equally

I could be in a group with my rogue and if my xp fatigue starts getting bad i can use my hearthstone to go to an inn, log out and back in with a paladin for example, that's about the best way i think i would handle the rest system Exarch Vintar
Dwarven Archon

[freonsmurf]

Hmmm, what about the freaks who put all their time and energy into one character and hate the idea of having multiple toons in a rpg?

If my one guy gets a ass load of rest fatigue, I am not going to make some other lame toon that I have zero intrest in, I am going to log out. Edited by: FreonSmurf at: 4/16/04 9:32 am

[EZ_Itzena]

www.penny-arcade.com/view...2004-04-16

[EZ_Ciba]

ON PUNISHMENT
A lot of people complaining about the rest system refer to it as “punishing” you for playing. To quote The Princess Bride, “I do not think that means what you think it does”.

Diminishing returns and punishment are NOT the same thing. Punishing you would be taking something away. You don’t lose experience if you continue to grind, you just earn it at a slower rate.

On the game dynamic – casual vs. powergamer
I see people arguing that experience gained over time is relatively constant, those who play more will advance more. The now argue that because the experience gained over time is not constant, that those who play more will not advance more. This is a logical fallacy, denying the antecedent.

I agree that those who play most should get the most out of a game. I don’t think anyone will disagree. How much more benefit you should get over time? That is another question. In EQ, playing 20% more than someone arguably involved more than a 20% increase in power Using the opposition argument, this is broken as well. I’m not saying that the rest system, as it is now, is perfect. That is what a beta test is for. If you don’t like “nerfs,” don’t apply to beta test games.

OMFG REST STATE = LAME !!!!!!!!
This is a difficult point to make without resorting to a style over substance fallacy. I contend that many of the posters who take this form don’t have the attention span or disposable income to play an ongoing MMORPG. Many of these are going to be bnet kiddies who might play for a month or two. Sure, Blizzard will take their money. They are not a long term revenue source for Blizzard, and as such Blizzard shouldn’t devote a significant amount of resources to it.

My thoughts
I’m glad blizzard is doing this. Sure, it needs tweaks, but what innovative idea doesn’t? A lot of people are grumbling that just because they can’t get the maximum experience means they’ll log out and get none at all. Why? If I enjoy a game, I’m not going to log out because I only get 8,000 experience/hour instead of 10,000. While this seems to be the major argument from the people that don’t like the rest system, it doesn’t make any sense.

Ever hear the term target market?
Even if Blizzard Doesn’t target the top ½ of 1% of EQ players, does that mean they’re producing a bad game? Of course not. Alienware doesn’t target the same group of customers as Dell does. That doesn’t mean anything is inherently wrong with either business model. Blizzard will get my money based on one thing, and that one thing along. Do I enjoy the game?

edit: fixed tags. Edited by: Ciba at: 4/16/04 12:09 pm

[EZ_JookaWoo]

This doesnt just hurt hardcore players, it always limits casual gamers who cant play all week but come saturday can log on and play for 8-10 hours.

Player A plays 2 hours each day for 5 days, = 200% bonus(not really a bonus since xp to level was also doubled so normal gain) the whole time.


Player B cant play all week, plays 10 hours on saturday earns quite a bit less compared to player A although they played an equal amount of time.


It takes 8 hours to go from any one state back to well rested, no matter if your a fatigued or just normal, you will spend 8 hours to get to well rested.

I find it pretty laughable they even attempt to try something like this. Edited by: JookaWoo at: 4/16/04 10:15 am

[EZ_Sorador]

Quote:Hmmm, what about the freaks who put all their time and energy into one character and hate the idea of having multiple toons in a rpg?

I agree Freon i would much prefer to have one higher level character than three level 10's, but i was trying to state a way to work around the rest system rather than to complain about it's disadvantages.

[EZ_Healo]

Quote:ON PUNISHMENT
A lot of people complaining about the rest system refer to it as “punishing” you for playing. To quote The Princess Bride, “I do not think that means what you think it does”.

Diminishing returns and punishment are NOT the same thing. Punishing you would be taking something away. You don’t lose experience if you continue to grind, you just earn it at a slower rate.

They did take something away. If I was getting 100exp for killing the same mob then all of a sudden I am only getting 80xp they have just taken away 20xp from me.

I mean if they told you that you work to much so your wage will go from $10.50 an to $7.00 an hour would you consider that diminishing returns? I mean you are grinding away at your job but you are just gonna earn your money at a slower rate.

[freonsmurf]

Quote:This is a difficult point to make without resorting to a style over substance fallacy.

Ineed, you failed quite miserably.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:Ineed, you failed quite miserably.

When I fail, I do it with style!

Still, I honestly believe most of the loudmouths are bnet kiddies. That doesn't mean that all of those who dislike this are, but the ****tard population is strong among the group.

Quote:They did take something away. If I was getting 100exp for killing the same mob then all of a sudden I am only getting 80xp they have just taken away 20xp from me.

I mean if they told you that you work to much so your wage will go from $10.50 an to $7.00 an hour would you consider that diminishing returns? I mean you are grinding away at your job but you are just gonna earn your money at a slower rate.

1) That wasn't 20 xp you had already was it? If you never had it, they can't take it from you.

2) That doesn't apply. Even if it does, people are perfectly welcome to work that. If that hour of your time is still worth $7, you'll work, won't you? If the time killing that mob is worth 80xp to you, won't you kill it? Edited by: Ciba at: 4/16/04 2:25 pm

[EZ_Kinadorm Bunnyslayer]

I was thinking
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yea I know me thinking = bad... Going on

Why does Rest exist? It doesnt make sense on a logical standpoint.

1. People in Beta were complaining that leveling was to fast, up until just before this push. Blizzard even acknowledges this.

2. Blizzard states in the "offical" reasoning that rest is in part an effort to help the casual gamer. See below...


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why was Rest State added:
1) Increase some sense of realism and role playing in the game by incorporating the concept of Inns and characters sleeping
2) To try to balance the speed at which various play styles level in the game. Even though WOW has a faster level curve than many games, we found that casual players were still feeling the "grind" in later levels. We didn't want to make the level curve even easier, since many other players would zoom through the game too fast.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If people are going to fast, then who is complaining about the "grind" and WHY add in a mechanism to increase the pace at which people level, after all the math all works out to help the majority of people level faster.

[EZ_Vindicor]

I applaud the use of an XP bonus for the initial time of hunting. It is indeed a boon to the casual gamer, which, despite opinions to the contrary, I believe games should focus on, moreso than hardcore gamers.

I like the tiering of the rest schedule (big XP bonus at the start, smaller XP bonus after a while, no XP bonus after a further time). While I can't rationalize it in a role-playing perspective (if experience is "learning from killing" or getting notches in your belt, the mobs you kill after twelve hours of gaming are just as dead as the intial creature you killed), it is certainly an aid to the casual gamer. After four+ years of playing EQ with the levels I've achieved, I can definately speak as a casual gamer.

My problem with it comes from my belief that those who wish to play the game for more than the "recommended" period of time shouldn't be punished. There should be no XP penalty, only a tier system that bottoms out to a flat rate with no bonuses.

Also, I still maintain there is a fundamental flaw in a system that encourages one to stop using a product. Edited by: Vindicor at: 4/16/04 10:55 pm

[DarthEnder]

I just want to clarify about how forcing people to rest at an inn would promote community and grouping.

The way I expect it to happen is...everyone who hunts in a given region is probably all going to log out in that regions Inn.

Now, rather than people just getting to the inn being people LFG, I'm talking about people just logging back in after they logged at the inn the day before. They are at the inn already, and they can look for a group. Anyone else that hunted in that already probably logged out in that exact same in, so you just wait around for others to log in and viola, possible groupmates.

I'm just saying, knowing the most likely place that people will be logging into the game means its the most likely place for you to sit "lfg" so to speak.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Ive decided why some changes feel like "hacks" and other seem like refreshing game mechanics.

Stats associated with the game mechanic.

Theres no stats associated with game rest as far as I can tell. If they commited to it a little more and designed it into the game itemization/player character stats it might go over better.

[Llabak Tharr]

Quote:My problem with it comes from my belief that those who wish to play the game for more than the "recommended" period of time shouldn't be punished. There should be no XP penalty, only a tier system that bottoms out to a flat rate with no bonuses.


What is the difference between these two scenarios:

A) WHen you log in, you get base 100 xp per kill, after 3 hours, that kill drops to 75 xp (a penalty of 25), and after 3 more it drops to 50 xp (a penalty of 50).

B) When you log in, you get a 100% bonus to exp, so the mob worth 50 xp gains you 100. After 3 hours, the bonus drops to 50%, so that the same mob gives you 75, and then after 3 more hours, all the bonus is gone, and you get the mob's base xp of 50. (This is basicly the camp bonus from DOAC).

It's a question of framing. Any description of this as a penalty is going to piss people off and say "Hey, you're screwing me." If it's framed as a bonus you get during the first couple hours you play, it becomes a lot more palatable. What needs to happen is they need to figure out how long it should optimally take to achieve certain levels, and then set the xp levels/bonuses to reach that.

"We think it should take 8 hours of grinding to get to level 10 from level 9. So that means about A xp per hour, or B xp per mob if we assume C kills per hour. We'll tell people we expect it to take 10 hours, and factor in this 'bonus' that lets them do it in 8 if they get full bonus, and only require them to take 10 if they are working at the fatigued level where they earn 'normal' xp."

Dunno if it's too late for them to do something like that, since it wasn't part of the initial design, and people aready believe that they should be able to go from 9 to 10 in 7.5 hours. To be honest, I dunno if anyone would ever buy this system in the first place, or if people would immediately switch over to believe it's really a penalty no matter how it's presented. Edited by: Llabak Tharr at: 4/19/04 9:12 am

[EZ_Andurian]

From how I understand it the rest xp only affects your Grind exp, If you aren't rested.. keep playing, quest, tradeskill, explore the other content rather than sit in one camp grinding.

After years and years of listening to players complain about how much the grind sucks, now it's almost like you all want to keep the grind? WTF. They are tring to fix one of the biggest complaints gamers have with mmogs

[EZ_Qanin]

Right off the bat, I am not in the beta. I think they should keep the rest system in place with tweaking of course.

What they should add is other ways you can rest besides logging off or staying at the inn. If Blizzard really wants to implement a PVP system they could add it as a way to rest.

Implement a Battle Grounds for all levels. When your character gets tired they can go to the BG's and recover rest there. Offer rewards mini sieges good ole DAoC fun. Or even put in instanced PVP battles where you might be guarding a NPC or walking through the forest delivering goods to town where you are attacked by the enemy (PVP) while their mission is to make sure that delivery never comes. (read it on Blizzard somewhere) If the mission is successful you might be rewarded with XP or gold or even fame. While doing those missions you regain some rest since you arent grinding.

For the people who hate PVP they have other options. While on a quest that is designed to take some time for bigger reqards. If you are on that quest they can add it so you regain from being tired. You can also do tradeskills while regaing.


*prays to the Blizzard gods for beta acceptance*

[Pratell]

I'd like to see the timer slow while you're sitting.

[EZ_Peebs]

I think there will probably be spells, skills, potions, food, etc that will allow a hardcore player to return to 'normal' status relatively quickly and without logging off. If I'm right, I think the rest could be a cool idea (I would probably just log a guy and play another character of the opposite side). If not, then I think the rest system may be a bad idea. We'll see. Some people are acting like it's the end of the world when the game is still in beta, this is the kind of thing that betas are for. If you hate the rest system or think it should be modified, let them know about it.

[EZ_Emmrys]

I'm not convinced that limiting people's play time on any given character to 8 hours or so is a bad thing. Whether people want to admit it or not, and most don't, sitting still and staring at a monitor for 10+ hours at a time is bad, bad, bad for you. Plus I like that it would artificially slow down the pace of leveling...

Although now that I think about it it probably wouldn't even do that, since you start out earning 150% exp. If you went a 12 hour stretch or whatever it is to get to the lowest exp earning level, your exp would probably even out to 100% anyway. I don't really see it as a big deal, since you can still quest and do trade skills anyway....least I think so.

[EZ_Maladen]

I like to add one other thing. While in a beta state there are real no nerfs.

The game is in flux and if the devs think something needs to be changed they should do it. See how it plays out and then adjust again.

Not like WoW is coming out any day soon.

So basically if you are a tester just test the content and give blizzard honest feedback. As for the rest of us we are passing uniformed prejudgemtns at worse and even at best baseing it on second and third hand opinions.

Of all the companies we should have faith in putting together a decent game it would be blizzard.

As other said this is really no different than DAoC system really just framed a different way.

[EZ_Cresch]

Coming into this thread late. But, just for clarification, is this Rest 8hrs of Real Life time or 8hrs of Game time?

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Game Time = Real Life time in WoW

So "yes".

[EZ_JookaWoo]

Quote:I'd like to see the timer slow while you're sitting.


There is no timer, its based on xp earned.


Quote:After years and years of listening to players complain about how much the grind sucks, now it's almost like you all want to keep the grind?


Dont you think its somewhat odd that the only way to gain skill points in this push is to grind away? I nevered liked to grind, but the fact is its required to progress same as it is here in WoW, they just dont want you to do it for periods of time, its a timesink.


Quote:But, just for clarification, is this Rest 8hrs of Real Life time or 8hrs of Game time?

WoW runs a 24 hour cycle so 8 hours in game and 8 hours in real life are both 8 hours.

[EZ_Gaereth]

A lot of people are either numerically challenged or just don't take the time to look at things honestly.

There are 5 rest states.

The first 2 give you BONUS exp.

The third is normal exp.

The last 2 give you less because your tired.

If all the stages take the same time to work through ( most folks are seeing somewhere around 3 hours) then thats 15hrs of play time.

So for 9 hours or your play time you get normal to BONUS exp.

For 6 hours you get reduced.

ummm.....no matter what, you get MORE exp than you would have gotten without the bonus.

Here...maybe this will make sense.

You work at McKings flipping burgers for $5 an hour. You boss comes to you and says I have a new deal for ya.

For the first 3 hours I will pay you $10 per hour.
For the next 3 hours I will pay you $7.50 per hour.
For the next 3 hours I will pay you $5 per hour.
For the next 3 hours I will pay you $3.75 per hour.
For the next 3 hours I will pay you $2.50 per hour.

If you say HELL NO YOU CHEATING BASTARD I will never work for LESS than my $5 an hour you - will have made $75 bucks in 15 hours.

If you take, ohhh, a few hours with a calculator and honestly LOOK at it you will find something interesting. If you take his deal you would have made $86.25. Your boss actually just gave you a .75 raise if you take his deal.

People need to pull their heads out and stop following the herd of idiots, they are aiming for the cliff.

[EZ_JookaWoo]

Quote:People need to pull their heads out and stop following the herd of idiots, they are aiming for the cliff.



Heh, since its now double XP to level you really sure about that 'bonus'.

[Llabak Tharr]

It's a bonus if they were going to adjust the exp rates anyway.

What do they think the appropriate leveling pace is? If they think it should take twice as long as it did, then this is indeed a bonus because it lets you level at the same rate you could before, which they judge to be 'too fast.' If they think it should take as long as it used to, but if you play for more than 3 hours out of 11 they make you take longer, then it's a penalty. Focusing on this as being a penalty when we don't know the underlying target rate for levelling really misses the boat.

Does this feel like a penalty for people who used to level twice as fast? Sure it does. Making people kill mobs at all would seem like a penalty for people who could create characters at level X (whatever the cap is). Deciding the apropriate mechanics to achieve a levelling rate in line with what the Devs want is one of the points of the beta.

If you think the levelling is too slow, vote with your feet and quit the beta or don't buy the game. If the levelling is fast enough to keep you playing, then it can't be all that bad, since eventually you're going to be paying for the privledge.

[EZ_Gaereth]

It is what it is now.

To compare it to last push is silly.

You have to look at it like it just came out. These aren't 'nerfs' to exp. ITS BETA. Erase how it worked last time from your head and try it with a clean slate.

Then...YES...its a bonus. If you just started yesterday it would be bonus. However...since many have played for months, since in some cases they doubled some of the levels they are saying well rested is normal.

NO.

Normal exp from last push would be normal exp now. Your twisting things and saying since they doubled the exp needed to level in some cases normal is now Well Rested. You still get the same amount per kill at normal that you did last push so thats not really a valid statement.

If they had just doubled the exp needed to level and left the exp gain alone would you have been happy??? NO. Folks would have been bitching about how they nerfed the exp needed to level.

They wanted to slow the curve down SOME.
SOME people were moving through too fast.

The new system just puts a little drag on them. It won't slow them down much, but it will pace them out through the content a bit better. Which...is the goal.

[EZ_Cresch]

Quote:WoW runs a 24 hour cycle so 8 hours in game and 8 hours in real life are both 8 hours. Thanks for the clarification. But I now must ask, since I generally only play from 9pm-1am, will it always be night in-game while i'm playing my toon? Possibly vice-a-versa, always daylight, but really, how does that pan-out?

But back on the topic . . .

How does this 'Rest' period scale with levels. I mean, at higher level you are you would certainly be making more experience per kill. Is the xp gained before you must rest a % or a set number. And from those who have played under this new system, is the negative impact of being fatigued truly noticable if you take the Rested XP relative to the new xp-slowing measures.

Basically, is it as bad as Hell levels in EQ back in the day? Just that you have a hell period each day before you call it and log out, hehe.


And yes, i'm sure they are still tweaking since this is Beta.

[EZ_Arafain]

I should probably clarify a bit. I am in the beta.

Quote:I'd like to see the timer slow while you're sitting. First of all, there is no timer. States of Rest are not time-based, they are EXP based. It takes (i think) 2000 points of unmodified exp gain before you go from Well Rested to Rested. Unmodified, meaning, here is how the system work.

I log in, I am well rested. I kill a mob which is worth 50 base exp. I gain 50 base exp and 50 bonus exp, aka 100 exp. After gaining 2000 base exp FROM MOBS ONLY (which translates to 4000 total exp), I go from Well Rested to Rested. And so on.

Now, here's what most people seem to be missing. Killing monsters for exp is NOT intended to be the main source of experience in World of Warcraft.

I'll say it again. Killing monsters for exp is NOT intended to be the main source of experience in World of Warcraft. Notice how quest experience was doubled and monster kill experience was not. Notice that fatigue status has no effect on Quest Experience rewards.

Here is the key concept - Blizzard intends for your character to level through ADVENTURING. In order to complete a quest, you usually have to travel to a new area, kill a boss in a dungeon, or collect a difficult-to-reach item. This absolutely ENSURES that no level 60 player will ever NOT KNOW where half of the starting cities are. It ENSURES that a player will have been competent enough to deal with the varied nonstandard situations quests put you through, such as mob ambushes, named targets, linked guards, healing NPCs, caster/rooting NPCs, wandering patrols, multiple adds, and the like.

Frequently at high levels in Everquest, I encountered players that had sat in less than 4 zones and killed warrior mobs their entire lives. A large percentage of high-level players I had met did not know where many cities were, did not know what abilities other classes had, and did not know how to handle many nonstandard situations. WoW presents the first original answer to this problem, which I don't believe is optimal, but at least works towards it at all. The main problem, as people have mentioned, is it encourages players to log off.

My personal take? Do away with fatigue entirely and cut mob kill exp down to almost nothing. Problem solved. Players must range far and wide to find new quests to level, and when they've completed all the easy, soloable ones, they must find group members to complete elite quests in order to level and gain access to the next tier of quests. This also neatly removes the "mudflation of experience" which results from an infinite mob respawn pool of experience. Experience thus becomes a limited commodity, available only through a finite number of quests. Combat ability is still central to the game, but now it's tangential to the main goal.

Oh, and to the poster who said the 500th mob you kill is just as dead as the 1st and you should gain the same exp from it - it's LEARNING from the kill that grants you Experience. You're tired, so you learn less - try studying for an exam after a full day of running/studying/fighting, and you'll see it's much more difficult to learn. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver (retired)
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein

[EZ_JookaWoo]

Quote:Killing monsters for exp is NOT intended to be the main source of experience in World of Warcraft.


Not quite sure how you can say this when the only way to gain skill points is to do just that, kill mobs. Grind em out just like AA's. Correct?

[EZ_Arafain]

Quote:But I now must ask, since I generally only play from 9pm-1am, will it always be night in-game while i'm playing my toon? Possibly vice-a-versa, always daylight, but really, how does that pan-out?Yes. The WoW world runs off california time. If it is day in california, it is day in WoW. If it is night in california, it is night in WoW.
Edited by: Arafain at: 4/19/04 9:14 am

[EZ_Arafain]

Quote:Not quite sure how you can say this when the only way to gain skill points is to do just that, kill mobs. Grind em out just like AA's. Correct? Skills and levels are seperate issues.

edit - sig again Edited by: Llabak Tharr at: 4/19/04 9:16 am

[EZ_JookaWoo]

Quote:Skills and levels are seperate issues.



I guess I dont see it that way. It has just as much to do with this rest system and the current conversation. Unless you can level and buy min amount of skills, but I dont see that happening really. If there is a reason to grind NPC's it will happen. Especially if it also includes buying attribute points which I believe I read was also something you can use skill points on.

[EZ_Gaereth]

The devs said with just your normal killing you can get enough skill points to get what you need.

HOWEVER... If you want to grind for more...go for it.

If you NEVER kill anything that gives exp you will NEVER get skils points. But...how far can you get without killing things for exp??

Skill points don't come from pure quest exp...ie - Finish quest, get 2000xp, get x number of skill points.

But they will come from any other exp you get. Or, in other words, you will get skill points....wait for it now....

When you use your skills to kill something.

[EZ_Arafain]

Quote:I guess I dont see it that way. It has just as much to do with this rest system and the current conversation. How so? Skill points are earned off of base exp. If a monster gives 50 base exp when you kill it, and you kill 6 of them, you will gain a skill point, regardless of your current rest state. You might gain 600 regular exp or 150 regular exp off those 6 kills, but you gain 1 skill point regardless. Doesn't that make skill points completely irrelevant to the rest system?

[EZ_JookaWoo]

Quote:How so? Skill points are earned off of base exp. If a monster gives 50 base exp when you kill it, and you kill 6 of them, you will gain a skill point, regardless of your current rest state.

Im not in beta so Ive yet to read this about it coming only from base xp, no one has yet to mention it in my reading. Also, in another post by Fricka, she said its 600xp = 1 skill point so you math is off a bit, hers is, or its not calculated on just base xp.

[EZ_Tikker]

fricka's number came from just watching total XP

(fully rested 600xp = 300 base xp)


arafain has it correct Tikker Gimblestan
Stuff I Own

[EZ_Kireiina]

Very good post on the system, but the solution of having mobs worth trivial XP is inferior to blizzards. Such a system would make quests that do involve mob killing undesirable (for example collection versus delivery). Respawn in a dungeon, or adds while travelling, would then become purely time wasters rather than a source of XP. And, really, when you do defeat a dangerous you foe the reward of XP can represent that achievement (and get the psychological conditioning process going).

Blizzards suggestion is clever because it balances both facets while discouraging over-consumption of either. Grinding kill XP is less optimal than it used to be. While quests will often be written such that there's hostile mobs in the way. The end result being that gameplay will involve both combat and questing, which makes for a richer experience. From what I read they've done the same in terms of linking crafting and combat.

I'm seriously impressed with some of the thought that's gone into this game. They seem to understand that the mechanics of the game will naturally shape the gameplay / community.

[EZ_Azrack]

I played 4 characters up to 30 in phase 1. I've played 1 character up to level 20 in phase 2. I have three problems with the quests:

1) The quests were interesting for my first character. All subsequent characters essentially leveled in the same fashion. Yes I spent time crawling around out of the way zones trying to find new quests. For example, levels 10-18 as alliance, you basically will do all the quests in 2 of these zones: Darkshore, Westfall Hills, The Barrens, Loch Modan. There is some variation here, but after you've done it a couple times, you've seen all the content for that level. All subsequent characters are an uninteresting slog through content you've already done.

2) Quest variety: Even though you have different quests in different zones, they all boil down to the 5 basic types. Yes there are a few that are unique, but the bulk of what you do is the following:
1) kill x of mob type y (sometimes timed).
2) collect x of drop y of mob z
3) take item from NPC x to NPC y
4) kill boss mob x
5) collect x of drop y which is a static ground spawn


3) Outquesting my play group. I have a regular group I play with. If I quest for an hour while they're not online, I have to backtrack an hour when they log back in to catch them up to where I'm at in the quest progression. This means that I pretty much play exclusively with my regular group because I don't want to repeat content if I don't have to.

Here's the connection back to xp fatigue: There's a constant xp value where you drop state. As you progress higher in levels, you hit up against xp fatigue more quickly. I didn't see xp fatigue for the first 10 levels or so. However I see fatigue set in in a little over an hour of playing now at 20. xp grinding is an option early on, but it becomes less viable as you progress, so in order to keep progressing, you need to quest. Which means for every character, you're going to run almost the same basic quest set. How is that more interesting than the EQ-esque xp grind where any mob close to your level in any zone was a viable target?

I agree that xp grinding is mind numbingly boring, but I don't think quest grinding is going to be any better. Its just a new idea that's going to reduce back to mind numbingly boring once people spend a decent amount of time with it.

--Azrack
65 Rogue, Veeshan

[EZ_Kireiina]

Quests can be made more interesting, Grinding can't. I don't really see much of a competition there.

It does seem strange to have static XP values involved per fatigue state. It doesn't seem to make sense that you get fatigued after less gaming at high levels than you do at lower ones. It it's intentional then that really is a way of slowing down levelling at higher levels.

[Koru]

Question to the sidetrack on the game time, there's no difference between game day and night in terms of mob spawns, ground spawns, npcs or anything like that is there? It would get very un fun to get an EQ type 'only during X hours' quest for someone not on PST, or worse, get stuck in permanent night with nothing but undeads. I could see being stuck in a certain part of the day as becoming very dull very fast.

[EZ_Arafain]

Quote:Question to the sidetrack on the game time, there's no difference between game day and night in terms of mob spawns, ground spawns, npcs or anything like that is there? Well, in one town, all the NPCs respawn as werewolves at night, but killing them turns them back into humans. So, the answer is yes, but it's not something that hinders you.

[EZ_Samita]

* Well, in one town, all the NPCs respawn as werewolves at night, but killing them turns them back into humans. So, the answer is yes, but it's not something that hinders you *

so to get something done in this town if you play "at night" you have to kill and wait for respawn?

Magelo for: Samita Sawmdorf Alanna Amaryllis
Tradeskiller 1717/1750
J 250, Br 250, F 250, Ba 250, P 250, T 240, S 227

[EZ_Arafain]

Yup. Not much of an obstacle really.

[Fricka]

"so to get something done in this town if you play "at night" you have to kill and wait for respawn?"

Last push if you killed them they would immediately turn into humans so you don't have to wait for the respawn. I thought it was a nice touch.

Also, havent read the whole thread yet but, yes my calculation was in watching total XP -- when I was at my well rested state which is double xp for each kill -- so 300 non modified XP points = 1 skill point seems to be the current forumula.

[freonsmurf]

Rely on the quest system for most of exp? Not bad not bad.

Oh wait, Furor is writing some of the quests? Aiiiiiieeeee!!

[EZ_Balthis]

Some folks are already level 35 this push. It doesn't look lik eXP fatigue has slowed too many people down.

It's actually sounding like the 200% bonus is a little too high and people are ending skipping large amounts of content due to outlevelling quests so quickly.

[EZ_Tikker]

yup


when you get lucky with some drops on some quests, you can easily end up being 3-4 lvls too low to do the next incremental quest, which forces you to grind for lvls


I'm already starting to get pretty bored with WoW =\ Tikker Gimblestan
Stuff I Own

[EZ_Rokktor]

I just started so I didn't see the pre-rest game. I think the idea is good, maybe it needs tweaking. Yeah, if you play for 16 hours straight you don't get the bonus. But the casual player gets a slight bonus for spreading their play time out. End result: hardcore player still pulls away, but not exponentially.

I know, "booooo.. don't cater to casual players." Whatever.

And I agree, it's a bit sloppy the way it's done now. Do you really have to stay logged in and /sleep at the inn or can you just log out at the inn? I literally typed /sleep and stayed logged in all night.

And I agree, you get lower Rested states faster as you level. I went through all of 1-10 without seeing Rested. Then at 11 I started getting it and went all the way to Normal before I figured out that I need to camp for the night at an Inn. [65 Dread Lord] Rokktor (Ogre) <Freedom Guard>
[58 Luminary] Ribt (Froglok) <Freedom Guard>