New & Improved Nightshade Templates

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

So what are you going to do with your extra points?

Myself, they're all going into Celtic Dual, which I've pretty much ignored. So at 50 (which assumes I start getting experience again) and using what I hope is the proper amount of points, I'm looking at:

Stealth 40: I still don't see a reason to take Stealth past 40, with more than enough bonuses to it available.

Piercing 34: It's tempting to boost it up to 39 now, but I don't think the increased damage from 34 to 39 will compare to the dual wielding damage increase.

Critical Strike 39: Right where it is now. Again, I don't see Rib Separation doing anything incredible for my damage output.

Envenom 39: I like poisons, and we have a nice selection of +Envenom items.

Celtic Dual 23: Formerly 3. I'm hoping this significantly improves my damage output in longer fights, and hey, I might even use one or two of the styles for fun. Ciardha Sidhe, Elven Nightshade of Guinevere
Explorer 93% | Killer 60% | Socializer 40% | Achiever 6%
"You killed a little dwarf. You brute."

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

If I were you, I'd put them in Pierce instead. I think that will raise your average damage faster especially in RVR more than CD will. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

In theory...

Raising piercing from 34 to 39 should increase both average damage and maximum damage by 7%.

20 levels of Celtic Dual should increase my chance of double-swinging (or an extra 100% damage) about 10% more often, which works out to a bit less than a 10% increase in average and maximum damage. Or maybe more, I don't know the details on the whole "over 20" thing that was introduced a few patches ago.

Higher piercing would probably be more reliable than hoping second swing triggers. More CD gives me a few more styles - no idea if I'll find them useful.

Anyone care to enlighten me on the joys of Celtic Dual? Are the styles good? Increased performance over 20 spec?

[EZ_Valarauco]

20% more often. 1% per point if you are over level 20. Note that doesn't say "spec 20".

And ditto.

Choosing between 39pierce/38dual and 50pierce/0dual (or something similar) isn't even a contest.

The added spec went mostly toward cranking my CD (which I was going to do, but not so soon). The styles compare favorably (not "better", in every case) to Pierce styles, but all styles pale in comparison to CS styles after the recent boost.

For my non-CS (lower fatigue cost) "anytime", I switched Copperhead/Viper's Bite which is side-positional, to Snow Shower/Thunderstorm which is back-positional (easier than side IMO), gives a defensive bonus (TS), costs very little endurance (medium for SS, low for TS), and TS is a detaunt. The damage is significantly lower, but if I've got endurance for high-damage styles (ie: a bard) I am probably using Garrotte/Achilles anyway. Edited by: Valarauco at: 2/22/02 3:52:05 am

[EZ_Squink McPoke]

There was some more extensive testing done using a larger # of people/logs and the formula that more accurately reflects the new CD % is 25 + 0.5*spec level + 0.25*char level

This is unconfirmed by Mythic, but it does match my parsing as well. It happened that I was level 39 with 19 celtic dual at the time, so my original guess at a formula matched with the data, but appears to be incorrect. -- Huff McTuff, 41 Nightshade, Pendragon
-- Nightshade Team Lead

[EZ_Valarauco]

/nod, thanks for the correction.

The point stands, however. Edited by: Valarauco at: 2/26/02 2:51:04 pm

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

Quote:
Raising piercing from 34 to 39 should increase both average damage and maximum damage by 7%.


I've seen no evidence that shows max damage raises with spec level for single handed weapons even over 34 spec. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

this is what a LOT of people are finding as well sunthas. theres a few possible answers...

what i have been thinking recently, is maybe their damage equations happen in steps, and if you hit your cap at 1 step, then it never moves onto the next step of the equation.

this sorta explains why quality doesn't show a factor in grey testing, why raising weaponskill isnt showing an increase in cap during grey testing, etc.

with enough testing, it wouldn't be too difficult to determine what order things int he equation are tested at. for instance, armor bonus seems to happen after style bonus. quality and condition seem to happen after style and armor...

just hypothesis, no hard facts or anything. Dither Disgustipated
Kobold Shadowblade
Ragnarok, Palomides

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

I based my information on the increased maximum damage entirely on the Mythic-provided information regarding weapon specialization - that at 2/3 spec damage range is 75%-125%, and at full spec damage range is 100%-150%. They didn't say that it didn't apply to one-hand weapons. If testing is showing that doesn't happen, then something is bugged.

(Searched the Herald for the post and can't find it... anyone have the link?)

Nice to know the new CD formula, thanks!

Regarding CD styles, I show Ice Storm as use-anytime but side positional, which rules it out for one-on-one encounters. I also show Thunderstorm as a taunt, not a detaunt - probably bad information on my part, since CD wouldn't have a detaunt style then. Ciardha Sidhe, Elven Nightshade of Guinevere
Explorer 93% | Killer 60% | Socializer 40% | Achiever 6%
"You killed a little dwarf. You brute."

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

Never saw it on the herald, but here is the post from vault:

Weapon Skill Explanation
Quote:
Actually, I've said repeatedly that weapon specialization is very important to CS. Somehow, the word just never spread.

Weapon specialization controls your base melee damage, in the way that we described on the Herald. This is the first I've heard of the "Step Theory", and I can tell you flat out it's not accurate. It's a smooth algorithm, with no sudden thresholds, every point of weapon specialization moves your minimum damage up (and therefore reduces your damage variance).

With no specialization, your damage varies from 25-125% of your base (which is determined by your weapon's stats and your level). From there to 2/3 specialization, the minimum damage you will do is increased linearly up to the 75% mark, at 2/3 specialization it will be 75-125% of base per swing. Past 2/3 both minimum and maximum raise until at 100% spec your range is 100-150%. Points from items *do* count in this calculation.

If you are unspecced in your weapon, you are gutting your melee capability, there's just no other way to say it. And since Assassin characters are in fact melee classes, gutting your melee guts your effectiveness as a class. You don't need (and probably don't want) 100% spec in your weapon skills, but you most certainly want them somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3.

--Dave
Edited by: Dither DAoC at: 2/23/02 6:23:27 pm

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

Max damage changes all over the place with skill perfectly with 2-handed weapons, its only 1-handed weapons that they don't seem to change. Its possible it could be stepped but he did say they weren't stepped.

I think his quote is about Critical Strike damage and not about 1-handed weapon damage.... I think thats the key. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

Hmm. I think it's pretty clear he's talking weapon specialization effects on base melee damage, which we know is important for any kind of style damage.

Here's the graphic for it again, if anyone's interested: Level 50 Weapon Damage

[EZ_StrahmG]

That chart is pretty correct im my experiance. There is most definitely large increases in CS damage the closer you get to your level.

For a long time I was around 2/3 spec in CS and I was averaging a 6pt addition in damage per level/per spec added. Ive recently figured out that there are huge bonuses in damage the closer you get to yout level in CS.

With the above template of 39CS, I believe that is a huge mistake. 44 would be the minimum I would set your CS. That gives you room for item enhancements as well as realm rank bonuses for the future. Remember, if you can one shot em... who cares if you can melee/envenom/dual em to death? Keep your CS as your "precious", its your bread and butter in all cases valid.

§TRΛHM GR¥MB£AÐE
60 Warlord ~ Druzzil Ro (Retired)

Ŧąľėşıŋ(41NS)/Ryàth(42Hero)
Cŕųċıбľę ~Ħībęŕŋĭą~ Ķąŷ

'Live Hard, Ðie Eveŋ Harder'

[EZ_Ishofthenight]

I'm shootin' for a riskey template for my nightshade

50 stealth
50 critical strike
remainder of points into envenom

I'll let ya know the results
Ishy Squishy - Lvl 22
Proud bearer of the TOE tag
Knee-high Nightshade
Hibernia - Lancelot

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

I believe that the skill progression he talks about where max damage increases applies to 2-handed weapons and Critical Strike and probably Trained Range based weapons as well.

Remember 1-handed weapons were orginally described how they are currently described on daoc.catacombs.com right now:

Quote:
If your class can put skill points into Piercing you receive the styles associated with it and an increase in minimum damage. It's been said that weapon damage variance follows the same progression as spell variance: When fighting a monster of equal level, 1 skill point(starting) = 25-125% damage, 2/3 of max skill points = 75%-125% damage; max skill points = 100%-125% damage.

Find someone thats over 34 skill preferably 50 skill and see how much damage they do on a gray mob with a normal 1-handed strike.

If its around DPS*SPD*3 then there is no increase in max damage for 1-handed weapons with an increase of skill.

This is an easy test to do.

Noticed the devs above didn't point out exactly what skill he was talking about. Well, he doesn't say what realm anyway. 2-handed weapons in Midgard would work that way for Shadowblades. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei GratiaEdited by: Sunthas Bayne at: 2/27/02 2:33:16 pm

[EZ_Aurelius CoV]

Ish, thats a pretty scary template.

You want 50 stealth and 50 cs? Well, with 38 stealth and 40 cs I have effectively a 49 stealth and 45 cs with items and realm ranks.

So, with your 50/50 realm ranks will effectively be worthless. The only thing they will do is raise your very low melee abilities a point at a time.

That template smells gimp big time. You will start having major problems as soon as you start RvR unless you feed off blue sitting casters.
"I am still learning"
- Michelangelo

[EZ_Cleary]

Correct Aureluis, and the devs from mythic have commented several times, the only way to gimp in this game is to full spec a line. Brennan
Hibernian Ranger of the Percival Server
EmailEdited by: Cleary at: 3/13/02 7:49:57 pm

[EZ_Ishofthenight]

Well, I'll let ya know how it goes
If I have a 50/50 will items raise it higher than that?
If not, I'll try it anyway. So far I'm holding my own as far as PvE goes. I know that it's completely different in RvR, but I'll take to the battleground to test if having a lower piercing and celtic dual will actually hinder me as much as everyone is saying.
I might even screw the envenom and just throw what points are left between pierce/CD if it will make a significant difference. If Mythic actually says that you are "gimped" if you train fully in something, that has got to be the most retarded thing I've ever heard. So if I have a 50 CD and 25 piercing, and someone else had a 45 CD and 25 piercing, provided everything else was identical, I wouldn't be able to hold my own? How does that make sense
I guess I'm just used to making the extreme UA character in AC. Ishy Squishy - Lvl 22
Proud bearer of the TOE tag
Knee-high Nightshade
Hibernia - Lancelot
stealth22,critical20,envenom10.....dying22..

[EZ_Valarauco]

No, no. The correct comparison would be 50dual/25pierce versus 40dual/39pierce (same cost spec-wise on each), in which case the latter would most definitely win (hidden strikes aside). The same applies to most of our skills, and most classes' skills. It's better to take two skills to 40/30 than one skill to 50.

Higher is always better than lower, of course, but it's generally better to be above-average at several things than excellent at only one thing, in DAoC. Edited by: Valarauco at: 3/14/02 6:35:56 pm

[EZ_Ishofthenight]

<bonks himself in the head for being a noob>

thanks guys much appreciated Ishy Squishy - Lvl 22
Proud bearer of the TOE tag
Knee-high Nightshade
Hibernia - Lancelot
stealth22,critical20,envenom10.....dying22..

[EZ_Pemolis]

Well I'll put down what my template is, almost identical to yours.


Stealth 40
Pierce 34
Envenom 40
Celtic Dual 21 (for Hurricane)
Critical Strike 39.

I can get to 49 with crit strike
Get to 50 with both Stealth and envenom
Get to the low 40's with Pierce
And can get to the mid 20's with Celtic dual.

So 3 of my main skills I'll max, Have CS, Envenom and Stealth.

Pierce is moderate but acceptable with the 75-125% variance.

And Celtic Dual I get the Nifty Hurricane Maneuver (cause how many times can you garrote before getting tired of it).