High level Piercing styles... no, really.

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

I thought I knew what the chains were, but according to a post on the VN boards, I don't. Can someone with high piercing clear this up?

I thought the chains were:

Black Widow -> Sidewinder -> Cobra's Bite
Tarantula -> Asp's Bite -> Wyvern's Bite
Copperhead -> Viper's Bite
Diamondback -> Dragonspider

Someone said that the real Black Widow chain is:

Black Widow -> Sidewinder -> Asp's Bite -> Cobra's Bite

If that's true, does Tarantula chain directly to Wyvern's Bite, or is there something else going on there? Also, how does that 4-chain (or the 3-chain if that's the case) compare to the upgraded Garrote/Achilles Heel damage?

I'm getting close to the point of no return on my spec points, I'd hate to miss out on a really good 4 chain that can be used any time. Ciardha Sidhe, Elven Nightshade of Guinevere
Explorer 93% | Killer 60% | Socializer 40% | Achiever 6%
"You killed a little dwarf. You brute."

[EZ_Valarauco]

Even though Catacombs and others say Asp's Bite chains from Tarantula, I've got it, and it goes Black Widow > Sidewinder > Asp's Bite. I don't have Cobra's Bite yet to know if it chains off Asp's or Sidewinder (could be the same 3-style chain with 2 possible endings, that happens with CD styles).

G/AH is way more damage than BW/SW/AB, and I suspect that would be true even if it were BW/SW/AB/CB. Different effects, less endurance, though.

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

Thanks. Something to think about.

I wonder if the defense bonus on Asp's Bite and Cobra's Bite would make it a useful replacement chain for Garrote/Achilles Heel in RvR, trading some damage for higher defense or a better chance to evade.

I wish I knew how the whole defense bonus/penalty for styles worked, really.

[EZ_Aenae]

If you use defensive styles, your chance to evade-block-parry the next attack against you is increased. They are quite useful if you are tanking, useless if you are not.

My shield-pierce champion will sometimes get a ton of blocks in a row by chaining Tarantula. Looks like this:

Block monster's attack w/shield
Bash monster (stunning shield style)
Tarantula (increases defense)
Tarantula
Block monster's attack w/shield
Tarantula
Tarantula
Block monster's attack w/shield
Tarantula
Tarantula

And so on. It's really fun when it gets going =)

- Aenae
- Manii Names

[EZ_Valarauco]

Yes, when I am soloing, I sometimes spend an entire fight cycling through Diamondback > Hamstring > Diamondback > Hamstring > Leaper > Diamondback > Hamstring > Leaper > Hamstring > Hamstring > Leaper because I evaded one attack early-on and just keep evading everything.

On the Defense Penalty/Bonus issue: it is virtually impossible to test exactly how it works; we would sort of need Mythic to tell us. I think "it increases/decreases your chance to evade/block/parry..." is a reasonable assumption based on empircal evidence, and I think "...until your (or your opponent's) next attack round" is also a reasonable assumption based on how other aspects of style effects work. Edited by: Valarauco at: 3/1/02 5:04:07 pm

[EZ_Valarauco]

Double post. Edited by: Valarauco at: 4/17/02 12:47:47 pm

[EZ_Valarauco]

OK, got Cobra's Bite. It chains from Asp's Bite, so that's a 4-style chain: Black Widow > Sidewinder > Asp's Bite > Cobra's Bite.

Damage on Cobra is similar to Asp's damage, lower or higher depending on the "roll". Both are about the same as Garrote, with Garrote usually being a little higher (a high Asp/Cobra can do more than a low Garrote). All of the above are consistently lower than Achilles Heel.

a) BW>SW>AB>CB costs about 1/3 of my Endurance bar.
b) Gar>AH>Gar>AH costs about 1/2 of my Endurance bar.

For comparison, if we say BW is worth 1, SW about 1.5, AB CB and Gar about 3, and AH about 3.5... a) is worth 8.5, b) is worth 13. Multiply a) by 2/3 and b) by 1/2, and you get 5.67 and 6.5, respectively. Factor in the difficulty of completing a 4-style chain versus the difficulty of completing a 2-style chain, the advantage of doing more damage quickly, and the fact that the effects of each chain don't stand out against each other, and there is absolutely no question for me that this particular Pierce chain is useless to an assassin who has spec in Critical Strike. It's not that they're bad, it's that CS styles rock.

As a 47.5 Nightshade with 39 base Pierce and 39 base Critical Strike, here are the styles I use with any sort of regularity (my Pierce and CS are both going to be raised a little higher, but I won't be getting any more styles, and Celtic Dual is done):

Perforate Artery>Creeping Death>Stunning Stab (CS): Duh.

Backstab II>Thigh Cut (CS): I use BS2 very frequently. Any target that I don't need to land PA/CD on to kill (low-level any-class, archers, and assassins, mostly) has a 50/50 chance of getting a BS2 instead of PA, depending on which way they are facing when I approach. It does great (2/3-3/4 of PA) damage, plus it feels really good to stab someone in the back.

Garrote>Achilles Heel (CS): This is what follows my PA/CD/SS in PvP. I usually only do it once while they are still stunned from CD, then wait for an evade to Hamstring>Leaper (if they aren't dead yet... PA/CD/SS/Gar/AH is an obscene amount of damage). I also just spam Garrote while chasing a fleeing target. I use Garrote>Achilles as my main PvE attack styles when I am soloing (no side styles).

Pincer (CS): Group PvE main attack style. That thread Fricka started plus some personal testing sold me on this style. "Very high" bonus to hit, medium endurance cost, approximately the same damage as Garrote. Main drawback is a "very high" rating on the mysterious "defense penalty" listing.

Diamondback (P): An evade return with a short stun, low Endurance cost, and very good damage (only slightly less than Hamstring). In PvE, and in PvP if I didn't hit BS2 or CD (stun doesn't work if you've recently stunned your target), Diamondback>Hamstring>Leaper becomes a devastating 3-style chain. Evade styles work any time between you evading your target and the target's next attack round, so beginning an evade chain with a stun extends your time to perform more evade styles. Fast weapons even allow DB>Hamstring>D B>Hamstring>Leaper (in PvE) from a single evade, but I am currently using a guarded rapier (3.6spd) and can only perform the 3.

Hamstring>Leaper (CS): Evade return, massive damage and low Endurance cost. Preceeded by Diamondback in PvE, and in PvP if CD or BS2 was not landed earlier, for a makeshift 3-style chain.

Scorpion (P): Anytime detaunt.

Squall (CD): Anytime taunt.

Total: 10 CS styles, 2 Pierce styles, 1 Celtic Dual style. I'd recommend high weaponskill regardless of the styles, though. Edited by: Valarauco at: 4/17/02 12:43:37 pm

[EZ_Drolk]

Great post Val, thanks! Drolk - L43 Kobold Shadowblade (Tristan)
In the shadow of the valley of death, I walk alone.

[EZ_Krizzyn]

Val,

Just curious. Have you found that Squall works better than Bumblebee's sting for taunting? Krizzyn Ixitaryn, 55th BlackGuard
Curghann Bearfist, 52nd Shaman the Tribunal

[EZ_Ciardha Sidhe]

Nice summary, thanks.

I also use Squall instead of Bumblebee's Sting for taunt. I like the look better, and theoretically it has less of a defense penalty.

[EZ_Valarauco]

Ditto to Ciardha. I'm pretty sure it's the same taunt effect.

[EZ_TRISS]

hmmmmm,

I have the three chain and I have found it to be more effective in PVE as the bonus I got from the styles decreased the damage I took and helped me use the evade chain. As a result I had less down time and used less endurance. I have no logs for this but I have routinely forsaken the garrote chain for the pierce chain. I dso not have stunning stab, my CS is 34. I am 42.5 and found it quite effective. Maybe I have less endurance? <shrug>

Seems to work better for me soloing though.

Bar set like this, PA/CD Diamond, ham/leap, then the BW chain

I have stealth hot keyed to # slot the page before then shift num to second bar.

Just my two cents

Joetta
Bedevere