Weap spec and CS spec

[EZ_Griffaar]

I'm sure this has probably been asked, if so my apologies and a point to the thread would appreciated.

Does anyone have any data or knowledge on damage between a template of 50/33 and 33/50 CS spec/Weapon spec? Not really interested in those exact numbers just something close.

Thanks in advance.

G

[EZ_Iriki]

Each point in CS adds 9 dmg to your hidden styles. Not sure if it affects non hidden CS styles at all.

Weapon spec determines your damage variance with every attack you do with a weapon. Numbers I hear often are at 0 spec the variance is 25%-100%, at 2/3rds spec it is 75%-100%, and at 100% spec it is 100%-150% damage.

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

no spec = 25% - 125%
1/3 = 50% - 125%
2/3 = 75% - 125%
full = 100% - 150%

even though weaponskill past 2/3 is supposed to raise your cap, testing vs greys isn't illustrating this. there could be many reasons for this, so discounting weaponskill isn't a good idea IMO. Dither Disgustipated
Kobold Shadowblade
Ragnarok, Palomides

[EZ_Griffaar]

I guess I just need to sit down and do the math. I was just trying to figure out if two almost identical assassins went head to head who would win if the the only difference was one had:

thrust = 50
cs = 34

and the other

thrust = 34
cs = 50

I'll try to figure it out when I get off work.

G Edited by: Griffaar at: 3/4/02 11:34:13 am

[EZ_Lohengrin the True]

well going head to head isn't gonna help cause it is a toss up who with get perf in and who gets shafted. hehe

Assuming these two assassins are going after identical orange archers (i hate archers lol)...here are the two sides...

thrust 50/CS 35
first hit with perf then melee the crap outa the archer. I would figure that hte archer would have at least half his hitpoints left. assuming you are using fast weapons and not a huge CS damaging weapon, after CD timer ran out the archer would probably be dead.

thrust 35/CS 50

first hit with a CS potentially doing 15*9 damage more than the other (135 damage). Then creaping death would hit for more as well potentially. So now you have an archer down to 1/4 life potentially. during the 7 second CD stun you kill said archer.

Conclusion:

both are equal at doing their job--killing archer.

therefore---personal choice. Lohengrin
Occupation: You don't want to know.
Affiliation: The Order SwordBruden
[b]In order to treat people fairly, one has to screw everyone equally.

[EZ_Griffaar]

It looks like the archer dies faster though with max spec CS though, under your scenario.

[EZ_Lohengrin the True]

probably.

At lvl 35 with max cs/stealth/thrust, I killed an orange archer in 2 rounds. I perfed then CD. along with the CD I had a dw kick in doing another 80 damage. I would say the fight was over in 2.1 seconds.

To be a good assassin one needs to kill quickly. To be a (poison-assist tank) rogue...one needs high poisons and probably melee. Lohengrin
Occupation: You don't want to know.
Affiliation: The Order SwordBruden
[b]In order to treat people fairly, one has to screw everyone equally.

[EZ_Dippin Daggers]

So, this means the best template is a middle of the road style. Something like this for an infiltrator.

40 Stealth
39 CS
39 Weaponskill
34 Dual Wield
37 Envenom

Basically, this puts you into position to have weapon skill, CS, and Stealth at 50 when you are level 50, once you add items. By doing this, you give yourself all the damage bonuses for having CS and thrust maxxed, and have stealth as high as it can go.

If you take any of these skills to 50 by training, the only thing you gain are additional weaponskills or safefall skill.

[EZ_Griffaar]

I thought middle of the road was supposed to spread you to thin?

I plan on neglecting dual wield all together.

G

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

Dither, don't spread around BAD info :P

I think that info Dither mentions is more closely related to 2-handed weapons or perhaps the way weapons work in Midgard. As far as I can tell, that progression doesn't work for 1-handed or 2-handed weapons in Hibernia. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia

[EZ_Tambori]

Accordiong to a post by Dave Rickey, Mythic World Dev:

"Weapon specialization controls your base melee damage, in the way that we described on the Herald. This is the first I've heard of the "Step Theory", and I can tell you flat out it's not accurate. It's a smooth algorithm, with no sudden thresholds, every point of weapon specialization moves your minimum damage up (and therefore reduces your damage variance).

With no specialization, your damage varies from 25-125% of your base (which is determined by your weapon's stats and your level). From there to 2/3 specialization, the minimum damage you will do is increased linearly up to the 75% mark, at 2/3 specialization it will be 75-125% of base per swing. Past 2/3 both minimum and maximum raise until at 100% spec your range is 100-150%. Points from items *do* count in this calculation.

If you are unspecced in your weapon, you are gutting your melee capability, there's just no other way to say it. And since Assassin characters are in fact melee classes, gutting your melee guts your effectiveness as a class. You don't need (and probably don't want) 100% spec in your weapon skills, but you most certainly want them somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. "

For Albion 2H weapons and polearms, the base weapon skill (slash/thrust/crush) determines the MIN of the damage variance. The advanced weapon spec determines the MAX of the damage variance.

Hibernia's advanced weapons work solely off the advanced weapon spec. Midguards hammer spec applies to both 1H and 2H.

Assasin's base weapon spec is a factor in how effective CS is. Exactly how weapon spec effects CS damage, I do not know.

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

Dave isn't being clear enough.

I've read his post many times and I haven't found a single weapon that actually follows that progression.

I would suggest getting WeaponSkill and CS higher letting Dual Wield slip a little bit. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia

[Lisboa]

You know, I'm starting to wonder whether above 2/3 actually puts you into the 100%-125% range and not the 100% to 150% range. Anyone have more information on this?

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

Testing vs greys does not raise the damage cap as dave states, but that could be to flawed testing vs greys. Previous times dave has posted the damage range, he has said 'vs even con.'

Our testing vs greys just might not work how we think it is supposed to, and doesn't illustrate the potential avg damage increase.

Sunthas, are you the person that also found that putting points into Large Weapons was actually raising your cap, similar to how CS raises our PA cap? If so this is really something that needs to be put forth to dave, for clarification. Edited by: Dither DAoC at: 3/19/02 5:54:10 am

[EZ_Jammermon]

Frig grays... there are too many caps (DPS, etc) That kick in to queer that study.

I Had Piercing at 80% and CS at 70% of Level and was NOT happy. Boomed CS up over 75% of level was VERY impressed. Then put Pierce up closer to 90% of level and was even MORE impressed. The difference between 80% and 90% of Pierce was 7 damage for EVERY strike; CS, non CS, moves, offhand stabs, DW.

The Difference in CS did affect +9 but only on CS moves. CS moves are endurance intensive. A solo assassination CS is FINE. But the Stun Moves (Diamondback 3 times after an evade = 7+ second stun) are reactive and much less endurance intensive. You can do 3 Diamondbacks for 210 damage and take none in return vs. 1 Garrott for 75 points damage for the same endurance. In a squad vs. Squad fight use the less endurance intensive moves. That way should flight become the best option ya still have half a green bar to use.

Solo; kill the enemy as fast as possible. Spend the endurance bank. Hell, like Mike Tyson, bite his friggin ear if that helps.

Different skills fer different sits, and balancing (except DW) helps. Chose between DW and envenom, but only do ONE. (PS Envenom is nice and gettuin nicer)

Jammer
L41 Nightshade
Scout/Pathfinder of Palomides

[EZ_dwonkdwonk]

I was under the impression that raising CS spec added the +9 to your high end damage cap, usually only reached against greys and low greens. Does CS spec actually raise overall damage of your CS styles?

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

when you raise a damage cap, it does 2 things: it increases average damage, as well as increases variance.

when you raise the damage floor, it does 2 things: it raises avg damage, as well as decreases variance.

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

I've seen some pretty good formulas on the Pendragon board that the Hunter TL has come up with. Its probably on the Vault as well.

Basically for Celtic Spear and for Large Weapons MAX damage increases at every point.

This MAX damage is important because its the same you would get on a Sitting Target. AF is basically ignored on sitting targets (which is essentially what attacking a gray does).

I haven't seen any tests to show that grays respond differently other than bumping the average hit so high it hits the cap every time. You can reach your cap but not cross it on all other cons.

I think its explained better on the DAOC catacombs site.

1-handed weapons progress from a minimum of 25% to a minimum of 100% and always have a maximum of 125% or 150%. Lets see what they say on Catacombs...

Quote:
If your class can put skill points into Piercing you receive the styles associated with it and an increase in minimum damage. It's been said that weapon damage variance follows the same progression as spell variance: When fighting a monster of equal level, 1 skill point(starting) = 25-125% damage, 2/3 of max skill points = 75%-125% damage; max skill points = 100%-125% damage.

This shows maximum doesn't change. It says equal level, but all tests we do confirm this progression for grays. Whats the difference? Min = Max on grays. So ofcourse the formula doesn't work for grays, but if we just want to know MAX and only use the MAX part of the formula (125%) then it works just fine.

----------------

For awhile we thought Hibernian Large Weapons worked like Two-Handed Weapons in Albion Work.

Quote:
The Two Handed skill is an advanced weapon ability that allows you to use a big honkin two handed weapon. They come in three flavors; blunt, thrusting and slashing.

Unlike other weapon skills, damage done by these weapons are a combination of two skills; Two Handed weapon and either Crushing, Slashing or Thrusting (depending upon the weapon type). Putting points into crushing, slashing or thrusting skill raises the weapon's minimum damage while putting points into Two Handed weapon increases the maximum damage.

When wielding a two handed weapon the base styles are not available. So, when wielding a crushing two handed weapon the crushing styles cannot be used, but the two handed weapon styles can be used.

But Large Weapons in Hibernia are not a Combination weapon. Putting points into Large Weapons raises the Maximum and Minimum damage those weapons do.

I would suspect you could consider critical strike like these combination weapons.

Putting points into critical strike raises the maximum damage while putting points into your weapon type increases the minimum damage (which decreases the variance).

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Putting points into envenom or Celtic Dual do not affect this. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei GratiaEdited by: Sunthas Bayne at: 3/21/02 7:05:59 pm

[Lisboa]

So in favor of over 2/3 weap spec giving 100-125%:

DAOC catacombs
Testing vs. grey
Generic statements by Mythic (better to be at 2/3 and not 100% spec)


In favor of over 2/3 weap spec giving 100-150% damage:

One statement from a guy at Mythic.

[EZ_Dither DAoC]

Sunthas, are you familiar with Mahrin posting the weapon spec:damage range ratio?

Catacombs is showing what we are seeing, but there may be more to the equation that makes what dave is saying correct. If the formula for damage has several steps, and theres a cap checked at each step, maybe the 150% check is done after a cap is already met, and doesn't carryover.

unfortunately, they say so many things that they later go back on, it makes trying to figure out whether or not anything they say is true or not, based on our somewhat blind testing that may be skewed because of something we don't know behind the scenes. Dither Disgustipated
Kobold Shadowblade
Ragnarok, Palomides

[EZ_Sunthas Bayne]

There are no steps.

That much is certian.

Quote:
Actually, I've said repeatedly that weapon specialization is very important to CS. Somehow, the word just never spread.

Weapon specialization controls your base melee damage, in the way that we described on the Herald. This is the first I've heard of the "Step Theory", and I can tell you flat out it's not accurate. It's a smooth algorithm, with no sudden thresholds, every point of weapon specialization moves your minimum damage up (and therefore reduces your damage variance).

With no specialization, your damage varies from 25-125% of your base (which is determined by your weapon's stats and your level). From there to 2/3 specialization, the minimum damage you will do is increased linearly up to the 75% mark, at 2/3 specialization it will be 75-125% of base per swing. Past 2/3 both minimum and maximum raise until at 100% spec your range is 100-150%. Points from items *do* count in this calculation.

If you are unspecced in your weapon, you are gutting your melee capability, there's just no other way to say it. And since Assassin characters are in fact melee classes, gutting your melee guts your effectiveness as a class. You don't need (and probably don't want) 100% spec in your weapon skills, but you most certainly want them somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3.



I still believe the main reason they recommend having 2/3rds spec is so they can make spec line changes and not have people be so upset. If you are fully spec'd its much more painful.

Also in a pure point perspective its much better to go 2/3rds in multiple skills than FULL in a single skill. Problem is 1) Over level helps. 2) A few skills define your character.

For Heros for example... why would you go 2/3rds in anything? You could go 50/50/28 or 44/44/44 going just to 2/3rds is ridiculus.

Infact if you take Infiltrators and you STOP at 2/3rds spec you can get EVERY SINGLE skill to 34 with points left over. That includes Spec'ing in both Slash and Thrust.

the stopping at 2/3rds arguement no longer works. Mythic should stop preaching it because its dumb. Sunthas Bayne
Firbolg Hero
Guild Leader - Dei Gratia