Discussion: Warriors

[EZ_Vaslin]

Currently, warriors are fairly one dimensional. They basically tank, taunt, and do damage. The only difficult part of being a warrior is making sure that they're close enough to the keyboard to turn off attack during enrage.

Question: What would you like to see added to the warrior class to make them more desirable and interesting?

I would like to hear discussions on some interesting and new ideas, especially suggestions on skills that make warriors desirable and require a bit of skill and thinking.Suggestions to avoid

More damage - All melee classes used the warrior damage table as a basis for melee balancing. Having warriors do more damage would only create balance issues.

Better taunting - Although their taunt isn't perfect, making taunt more effective would only make the game easier and aggro control would be a non-issue.

Other class strengths - I don't want this discussion to infringe on class balancing, so discussions of giving 'evade' to warriors would be counterproductive.
Battle Cry
Warrior calls out a powerful Battle Cry that encourages his comrades.

Lets all group members who are currently meleeing to Flurry on the current mobWall of Defense
Multiple warriors in a group can set up a defensive wall and 60% of the damage will be given to each of them

Bodyguard
As long as the warrior remains in melee range of the mob, any damage that mob does to the guarded PC is halved, with the balance applied to the Bodyguard. Activate the ability with a PC targetted.Weapon Specialization
Warriors will be able to specialize in a chosen weapon type.Damage Mitigation Table
Put Warriors on their own unique damage mitigation tableIndominitable
The ability for a warrior to refuse to die. If activated, the warrior will stay alive for 6 seconds, at which point they will drop dead regardless.Offensive Disciplines
Offensive Disciplines should be given a different timer than defensive disciplines.

Reduce reuse time on offensive disciplines greatly and create several new quick and interesting offensive disciplines.

Tendon Slash - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks low towards the feet of the mob, with a chance to permanently snare it's opponent.

Concussion - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks at the head of caster mobs, with a chance to temporarily disable the caster's ability to regenerate mana.

Shield Push - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior pushes the mob with his shield, with a chance to knock back the mob 10 feet. (Shield is required)

Arm Slash - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks the arms of the mob, with a chance to temporarily lessen the damage output of the mob.

Beserker Rage - 5 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior can activate his beserker rage for 30 seconds. Edited by: Vaslin at: 8/27/02 2:08:04 pm

[EZ_Draxus MT]

Remove defensive & give us a perm ~5% damage mitigation or some seperate damage taken table ala monk's seperate damage dealt table.
Baron Draxus Diablus
Teir'Dal Warlord

I begin to be aweary of the sun,
And wish the estate of the world were now undone.Edited by: Draxus MT at: 8/27/02 8:51:22 am

[EZ_Vaslin]

/nod Draxus...

But does that make warriors more interesting?

[EZ_Draxus MT]

In EQ, being a warrior is the antonym of interesting (I won’t get into why I play if I think my class is “uninteresting,” but there are other very good reasons). The only way I could think to make the class more "interesting" is to add combat maneuvers such what I have seen in DoAC (I never played DoAC, but friends have shown me some of the basics of how it is different). It would have to be more than just hitting a button every time it pops up to riposte or whatever. It would have to be done situationally & with timing in order to be effective. Of course, this would make EQ more of a “twitchy” game, which is something they have tried to avoid considering problems such as connectivity lag, pvp issues, etc. I think this would at least require a re-engineering of the game mechanics, though. Maybe EQ2? /shrug
Baron Draxus Diablus
Teir'Dal Warlord

I begin to be aweary of the sun,
And wish the estate of the world were now undone.

[EZ_Hordolin Awanagin]

Ask Five, she's probably got better ideas than anyone.

Sure It'd be neat to give a warrior the ability to give flurry to your party members. I don't think it would make warriors more interesting or desireable to play. It would be interesting to see the melee damage done by all the other classes if they had flurry.

[EZ_Grumbam]

Greetings Rogues!

There are currently 4 major "Talking Points" among warriors.

The first three are primarily raid oriented:
1) Their ability to tank mobs hasn't kept pace with the power inflation since Velious. (monks have better defense and Knights have almost as many HP's etc.)

2) Warriors must now rely on prosthetic devices (Enraging Blow) to control aggro in todays EQ raid situations

3) There is little point to having more then 2 warriors on a raid , and being an extra warrior on a raid is boring.

The fourth concerns a wider audience:
4) There is little reason for a 6 person group to choose a warrior as their tank over a decently equiped monk or knight class.

Well the first two points are each issues onto themselves and are already being discussed to death on other boards....so what about 3 and 4 ?

Non-Warriors often point to /disc defensive as the great boon of being a warrior and fail to understand that defensive, and having to balence the encounters/other classes around it is what caused this situation to begin with.

One suggestion for making extra warriors more useful/interesting to play on raids is a system that lets a whole group of warriors share damage (I.E. a wall of melee absorbing the mobs hits). This certainly has possibilities, but I am not sure how practical it is.

Issue 4 is really the hotbutton for any number of folks and my suggestion would be NOT to try to add utility functions to the warrior, it would only dilute the class, but how about some special attacks?.

(Special moves similar to fighting games but instead of pressing up,up,down,down,left,right,left,right,A,B,B,A,STAR T they are on the kick/bash timer)

They would have short re-use times and very short durations, for example a move where you automaticlly riposte the next 2 attacks and you do max damage the next hit (call it counterstrike) or you do quadruple damage on a kick and stun for 6 secs (boot to the head).....Each special move requires a saving throw to perform but if you succeed all parts of the move succeed.

I know this is like monks special kicks etc. but none of these moves (maybe have 6 or so total) would be overly powerful and it would give warriors more cool little tricks to do while grinding away for exp and keep people a little more interested

Special moves would not assure that warriors would be chosen over a monk or knight but it woudl give at least a little more depth to the warrior single group experience.

Grumbam Orcbane
Level 60 Warlord
<Fusion of Flame>

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

number 1:

your statement about damage is in accurate. the melee balancing was mishandled, and rogues and monks were given too much damage enhcancement (im not suggesting to nerf monks and rogues.. well, nerf monks, but their defense not their offense)

we were promised:
warrior: 1.0
rogue: 1.4
monk: 1.2

but instead, we have:
warrior: 1.0
rogue: 2.0
monk: 1.8

yes, a damage adjustment is needed. more follows, but do not discount the damage adjustment that is needed.

more damage = more agro = good No, really, magic pajamas were always intended to give the wearer greater protection than that of half inch thick steel plate. really. whaddaya mean monks are unbalanced? Edited by: Aldarion Shard at: 8/27/02 10:28:31 am

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

as for more interesting, i truly believe that a really simple fix could give us much more options in combat, while retaining class balance:

reduce MOST warrior /disc reuse times by 10-fold.

(NOTE: not disc defensive or disc evasive. these are already balanced)

simply allowing warriors to USE their offensive /discs would be a huge boon.

as it stands now, the options are:
1. burn your offensive disc and wait a FRIGGIN HOUR to use any other disc
2. hold off, and use your defensive discs (defensive and evasive) when needed.

its a simple fix, and would contribute greatly to giving us more options in combat.

the comment about warriors needing a new defensive table isnt even a suggestion - this is an absolute necessity - without which the warrior class will die.

but vaslin is correct, it would do little to make us more interesting. No, really, magic pajamas were always intended to give the wearer greater protection than that of half inch thick steel plate. really. whaddaya mean monks are unbalanced?

[EZ_lothared SOK]

Warriors need Tracking! Lothared
Warlord of the Sterling Order of Knights

[EZ_Gyorg]

a suggestion would be to retune the 'offensive discipline' so that warriors that won't be tanking can put in signifigant dmg, say, 1.2 dmg at the tanking ability of a ranger long enough to last most end game fights but with something like a long refresh time. --------------------------
Gyorg Lavode, The original Phin-o-matic Safehouse Moderator
Unguilded Assassin Badass
of the 60th Moon over Xegony

[EZ_VinnieDaPooh]

I like the "retune" the offensive discs idea. The do need to be retuned so that a warrior who ISNT tanking has the ability to do a good amount of damage.


But my whole point is, WHY is there an AC cap. Warrior end game equipment now a days, WHO CARES what the AC as long as it has HPs What kinda of mentality is this?


Remove the AC Cap/Curve. Make it so AC from 1000 - 1400 has just as much a profound effect as it would if you went from 1400 - 1800 ... I mean if a warrior could TANK not just have more HPs to heal ... imagine the possiblities ... Less damage vs more hps to heal sounds like the Warrior fix to me personally I am addicted ... oh well :)

[EZ_pulid]

If you could pop cheap discs every few minutes would rock. But I would like to see warriors shift to defense, and be "the" tanking force in raids.

WTG on doing the warrior board's job :-)

[EZ_Le Chevalier Blanc]

What about resistance to magic (and perhaps fire/cold) due to their inate "non-magicness"? Since they cannot even use magic, warriors could be given a substantial innate resistance to magic. This would do several things:

1. Make warriors more effecting against magic using mobs - either in groups or in solo situations.

2. Allow the warrior to keep AC/HP armor on during "resist" fights. This means the warrior does not have to sacrifice his tanking abilities for resists.

3. Give warriors an innate advantage in PvP versus magic using classes.


For this to be useful, it needs to be higher than "a few points". More like 3-5 points per level above lvl 50.

-Le Chevalier Blanc
Barbarian Assassin of 60 winters, Erollisi Marr

[EZ_Xexy]

1. Raise the AC cap for warriors only. This would make them more desireable in high end single grps.

2. Following some fantasy themes make Warriors the masters of weaponry ...AA skill allowing for the "specialization" of 1HB, 1HS, 2HB or 2HS. Allow the warrior to raise the skill cap of a selected weapon type.

[EZ_TibisHatter]

Some thoughts that came to my mind when I was driving home:

1) Beserker Rage could become an activated ability rather than passive.

2) An Indomitability ability, where a warrior simply doesn't die for a number of seconds after activation - come DoTs, DTs or melee damage, at which point they drop dead regardless.

3) This could be interesting, but perhaps impossible to code - a "Bodyguard" ability. Activate the ability with a PC targetted. As long as the warrior remains in melee range of the mob, any damage that mob does to the guarded PC is halved, with the balance applied to the Bodyguard.
"The Internet is a write-only medium" - unknown

[EZ_Thaloc]

"reduce MOST warrior /disc reuse times by 10-fold."



Thats a nice idea, refresh time on fellstrike is 30 min, refresh on aggressive is 1 hour, too long to be really useful IMO. Only time I ever use offensive /discs are when xp grinding. Can`t take a chance to use an offensive disc on a raid, as bad things CAN happen, and then heaven forbid I`m the last plate class standing and I`ve got 45 min till my /disc refreshes.

MOB positioning isn`t really a problem as I see it, you can move the mob almost anywhere ya want it as long as you have aggro and the raid crew knows what they are doing.

What I`d like to see:

Shorter refresh time on offensive /disc

More melee damage mitigation, not more AA skills, move us to another defensive table maybe?

Better aggro control. Not more enraging blow weapons, not an ae taunt that I can only use once every 15 min, make regular old taunt work when I need it.

More puppies.

[EZ_Emisteral]

Killing the current /disc system and going with a system based on "Combat Modes" and "Specials" would certainly give the warrior more options during battle. These abilities could be stacked and layered to provide the Warrior with relatively in-depth strategies for any situation. I assume that equates to being "more interesting"?

Combat Modes: Based on any number of variables (level, prerequisite ability scores, race, diety, whatever) the Warrior would recieve "Combat Modes" to use. These modes would be similar to disciplines but would be available full-time and would operate by increasing one ability while equally decreasing another. A Warrior in the "Power Mode", as an example, would recieve a damage bonus to all successful attacks AND an equal decrease to his ability "to hit." The Warrior could only be in a single Combat Mode at a time.

Specials: Associated with each Combat Mode, would be a number of "Specials". These specials could range from anything like a "Stunning Blow" from a Warrior in "Power Mode", to the ability for a Warrior in "Guard Mode" to activate the "Wall of Shields" ability to equally divide up the damage taken by all Warriors using the ability...stuff like that.

It seems to me that this type of system would give ALL the Warriors on the raid options, and more importantly, value. While the MA is in a defensive mode and executing taunts to distract and enrage the target, another warrior could be in an attack mode to deal extra damage with special attacks, while another warrior could be in a guard mode to protect the healers/casters.

I am sure this post is not a groundbreaking revelation; but, it sure seems more interesting that hitting taunt and picking out a /disc every once-in-awhile. :)
Your Brother In Darkness,
Emisteral Corpsedancer
~=(Warlock of Tarew Marr.......finally!)=~Edited by: Emisteral at: 8/27/02 2:31:29 pm

[EZ_Kellaen]

What can be done for warriors? Shrug, verant seems hellbent on forcing this shield sh^t upon us so I guess I should be happy I can tank better at the cost of further DPS and taunt loss already over defensive.

This sums it up pretty well..
Quote: Absor, if you are still reading this, answer this:
What is the role of the warrior? We can only tank better by using a discipline that has hindered our growth for years (let alone the fact you are totally ignore pre-55 characters where the warrior can't even rely on saying he has /disc defe), we rely on other classes to make sure we can agro while at the same time disregarding buffs that actually help (sorry, while MT'ing and having a bard in my group, where are all of these hate buffs going to go? because I sure don't have the room), we rely on damage dealing classes to STOP attacking so a mob doesn't forget about us, and later rely on getting near impossible to get weapons for some to keep agro ourselves. Again, what is our role? To type /disc defensive on like four mobs that 95% of the game's warriors will never see or fight? If so, get rid of it and totally rework the class and all the encounters.

[EZ_Squink McPoke]

Something along the lines of /disc, but called something else, and on a 1 or 2 minute timer. Like maybe /feat

Different /feat ideas:

Leg kick: attempt to kick mobs leg, forcing 10 second snare effect

Berserker rage: Next hit is a guaranteed crit

Impressive block/parry/riposte/dodge: next round of hits against warrior is a guaranteed block/parry/riposte/dodge round

Windless sprint: double current run/horse speed for next 10 seconds

Dirt kick: kick dirt into current target's eyes, blinding it for 10 seconds (useless in combat, but good for getting away from something)

Selfless Protection: Take the first hit (within next 30 seconds) that would normally have landed on current target. (i.e. target enchanter, use the /feat, if enchanter gets aggro in next 30 seconds, first hit is taken by the warrior that's protecting them)

if I think of more, I'll add to this -- Squink McPoke, 60 Assassin, Lanys T'vyl. Hat.

[EZ_Taqwus]

I have never played the high end game so I am not sure these would work.

Let the dmg of a weapon be added to the defense. Weapons are also used to defend with so make it useful. Also, add in teh damage bonuses.

After a certain level a warrior can extend his "armor protection" to the people around him by intercepting the MOB's attacks

For offense, I would give them a weapon skill mastery that enhances the base damage (Skill Level/25 ~ 50) that would give them an added 5 to 10 extra base damage. It could be a on a timer like backstab also.

[EZ_Bloodshard]

Some minor skills for AA points:
Nothing major (aka Track, Feign Death) & no major levels in them.

Like Forage, Safe Fall, Channel (yeah a couple points in channel might be nice for clicky disruption).

I think this would be something nice to add to all classes. Some cross class training to develop your character a bit multiclass. For those feeling this might take away from certain races I ask you if people buying levels in hit point regeneration takes away from Trolls & Iskar since that is one of their main racial abilities that they pay heavily for.

Also possibly a Jump skill that lets them add some air time to their jumping. Would be something different & would help lower level warriors having something to do when things go bad, especially if everyone bails for the zone/gates
Bloodshard OggWarrior-Chef
'You see in this world there are two kinds of people my friend, those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.'-The Man with No Name Edited by: Bloodshard at: 8/27/02 4:34:12 pm

[EZ_Adinerach]

Greetings,

I thought Emisteral had a couple great ideas that I would like to expound on. Forgive me if I make broad assumptions in this post as I am only a 38th level rogue and have not touched the Warrior class.
The post I am refering to mentions 'Combat Modes' and "Special Manuevers' I think the combat modes is a wondersul idea and fits with the Warrior motif very well. From my knowledge of the upper end of the games, you all deal with mult. groups acting in concert. This brings to mind combat 'formations' and such.
Like forming a shield wall with some tanks and having other focus on the more offensive aspects. Allowing a range of group tactics within the Warrior class itself, and also allowing the use of varying tactics within a group of just warrriors. Moving in phalanx formation would be inpossible but there is no reason why abilities can't reflect these kinds of strategies that were used on actual battlefields in the past.
My humble opinion,

Adinerach Fey'Branche
Lurker in the Shadows
E-marr

[EZ_Talonfar]

I have played the warrior class in Everquest almost every day for the past 2 and half years. It's almost so boring at times that I have invested in a DvD player that fits on my desk to keep me from falling asleep.

boring in experience groups
engage mob, hit attack key
kick
kick
kick
kick
mebe i get to refresh a self buff... no, but ill do it anyway
kick
kick

boring on raids
If your MT or in the MT rotation... it's not "that" boring, but if your just another damage multiplier it's time to watch some movies.

Why I continue to play a warrior everyday
it's like switching from 2 percent milk to whole milk. It's just tastes bad when you do.

What would make it more interesting for me
Give me something to do, sort of like the disarm abilty but something that will actually "benefit" myself and the people I'm with

Let me use my nearly useless offensive disciplines more often. It's not like I'm going to outdamage Rogue_10303020202 with Rage Bringer_1030183487218 any time soon.

Give me an "ability" that will directly effect the damage output and or damage taken by the players within a radius of my position. This would be similar to a "war cry" sort of skill. Make other players say "hell yea get that warrior with AE War Scream."

Give me a better chance at being a "Warrior" not some punching bag that can't dish out damage fast enough to actually do the job I was intended to do. I chose a Warrior to be a bad ass not a gimp who's only purpose is to maintain aggro with semi sub-par skills so that other members of my group could actually kill the encounter we've chosen to kill. I'm a GD warrior for crying out loud. Remember Conan? He was a B.A.D.A.S.S. Keelz
56 Sexy DE Warrior
Mithaniel Marr

[EZ_Seigfried]

"1. Make warriors more effecting against magic using mobs - either in groups or in solo situations.

3. Give warriors an innate advantage in PvP versus magic using classes"


Warrior already have Innate Magic Resistance incase you don't know Edited by: Seigfried at: 8/27/02 6:07:40 pm

[EZ_Slycin Dyce2]

Critical Taunt!

AA as 6/12/18 points(or intrevals of 5, whatever seems fair)

2,5,10% of a chance to critical taunt! Puts you on top of hate list for 10 or 15 seconds, and gives you a boost on top of the hate list when it is done. Slycin Dyce
53 Champion
Tempest of the Dragons

[EZ_rani]

I think it could be interesting to simply remove the reuse time on the /evasive /defensive /aggressive /precise discs. And lower the reuse time an order of a magnitude on the 10-sec burst damage ones.

A warrior should be able to change fighting styles at a moments notice, and not some artificially long 50 min wait.

Of course the benefits of the discs would need to be toned down so instead of defensive/aggressive having a 30% benefit, it would maybe only be 10%.

This would allow for more combat choices during a fight, which in turn can help make it more interesting. As mentioned above, the problem is that often times you simply cannot afford to use any offensive discs at all, because you might be called upon to MT, and then you would be in trouble.

Also I wouldnt rule out improving taunt as the original poster suggest. In fact I think most warriors crave a better working taunt.

What they need to do IMO, is to make an AA-based skill "Enhanced Taunt" which always adds +hate, even when the mob does not fall for it. To avoid agro control being too easy, they should scale down the hate generation of the EB-proccing weapons at the same time.

That change would allow us to choose weapons more freely, and still keep agro. This=more fun for the warrior. Part of the fun of being a melee is seeing big numbers fly by from a 2-hander, or seeing 100-150 points DD procs hit the face of your opponent. But we cannot do this atm, as at the highend you really do not have any choice but to wield one(or even two) of the EB-proccing weapons. This is boring from a players standpoint.

Putting warriors on a seperate damage mitigation table is also long overdue, and should be put in asap. This they could couple with the changes to the various offensive/defensive disciplines mentioned above.

I think it could all click into place pretty well. 5-10% more mitigation for warriors, lower effect of the defensive/offensive discs from 30% to 10% maybe, while at the same time removing their reuse time.

A few of the more brutal mobs like AoW might need a slight retuning if/when defensive is made less effective, but it should not be too bad to fix.

That is the changes I would make anyway

[EZ_Prodigious]

and the mods try to defend this as being a rogue board?

as for warriors being boring....uh all classes do excactly the same thing all the time....there's no difference really, although spellcasters have a little more fun to do Marauder Prodigious Prodigy
Fennin Ro
Edited by: Prodigious at: 8/27/02 8:10:31 pm

[EZ_nelxaur]

Typically, warriors made their class to tank, to be the biggest, baddest, meatshield around.

All these skills and /disc changes sounds like some people want the warrior class to become a "Blademaster" type class.

Warriors currently have 3 main problems:

1) Out-tanked in the high end game by multi classes. No need to get into the specifics, if you want them, check out posts on Steel Warrior or FoH Board, both boards have fairly good proof and logs.

2) Damage is not in-line with what Verant planned back when they did melee balancing. They had a general idea about how much of a damage increase warriors had over knights, monks, rogues, and rangers had over warriors, etc. Again, if you want specifics go search steel warrior. Numbers are MASSIVELY out of wack now though.

3) The REQUIREMENT in high-end game to have a "Taunt" weapon to tank successfully.

Well... imho, ways to fix this...

For 1 - Remove defensive, set warriors on a totally different defense table, and either make warriors have innate absorb via a percent (basically, innate defensive), or give warriors a large AC bonus with the addition of the AC Cap fixed. Since i'm assuming the 2nd will not happen since it has not already (I would guess if it was an easy fix to increase the soft AC cap, it would have been done already). the 1st would be the best solution. It would make warriors the best pure meat shield again.

For 2 - This one is up in the air... since I highly doubt verant wants to "nerf" classes back in-line with the specs they planned when they did melee balancing, warriors would need either an all around damage increase, or some new tricks. According to Verant, Rogues should be doing about 40% more damage then warriors, high end parses show they do about 100% more (Not saying nerf rogues, they are pretty much perfect, it's warriors that need the help). I am against just upping the damage of warriors, or adding in higher damage warrior weapons.... this one will require verant to do some thinking =).

3 - Heh, I know Vaslin said not to, but really, Taunt needs to be fixed. It should not be a requirement for warriors to have to rely on specific weapons to gain agro. AE Taunt has turned into the "Taunt that Works", when i'm pretty sure the intention of the AA skill was to taunt all monsters in the area onto the warrior. Unsure about other options, but really this problem is not as massive as being out-tanked at nearly everything by other classes.


Oh well, just some thoughts... I agree dead on with Furor on pretty much all his warrior rants. I don't mind other classes being able to tank high end raiding encounters, their should be a distinct disadvantage if they are not using a warrior. Warriors job is to be the meatshield between the monster and the rest of the raid, and they should be BY FAR, the best at it.

[EZ_Fools Fizzelmore]

Fix Warriors? Make Warriors more viable?



1. Wars should be the top of the line in damage mitigation/absorbtion. Perma-state of something like 10-15% of current /disc defensive.


2. Give warriors some "options" in a fight. Abilities that help us that a warrior should get through the progression of his life.
Aimed shot head :- induce a low lvl stun effect (agro effect) Takes one round of combat.
Aimed shot leg :- induce low lvl snare effect (high agro) Takes one round of combat.
These should be fast fast timers eg 1-2 mins.
Warcry :- Induce low lvl fear in target.

3. Lower the /disc timers on existing skills. 1 hour for crits is too high. At the end of the day these discs are not used as we have to save up incase we need /defensive


4. Allow Warriors to use shields effectively. Introduce weapons that can only be used with shields. And therefore make using a shield a real strategic choice. Ie Adds to your mitigation and your avoidance by a significant factor. (to account for the lost of a weapon damage). (ie I would like to think that a tank using a shield on a mob like AoW would be a LOT more solid tank rather than one dual wielding.)

All warriors are not looking to become gods. We are not looking to become awesome soloers like monks or dps machine like rogues. But if we are ment to be THE tank with no spells or anything else to fall back on...then make us THE TANK of the game. Give us some abilities/disciplines that will help in exping/raids that help grab agro and hold it. It is not right that we need to rely 99% on items. I do not mean that other classes should be nerfed to make us more effective. I mean we should have a BONUS compared to other tank classes when it comes to being hit and our ability to take a LOT of damage.


Cuch,
Warlord. Cuchullan
Warlord
IB

[EZ_Kellaen]

I have played a warrior for 3 years, I have used a shield once in those 3 years - 2 3 / 4 years ago. I do NOT WANT to use a stupid pos prostetic device shield to do my job, screw my taunt and lower my already subpar dps that much more. We've been dual wielding since release, keep it that way. Stop adding in these bandaid fixes to huge game issues, the wound doesn't go away it just festers more untill it gets noticed again later.

[EZ_Uhgg Lee]

Warriors in the eq sense are really a defensive class.
I read numerous times Verant saying they never envisioned the idea of a Main Tank.

Whether they envisioned it or not it is really what a Warrior has become. The problem with that is even that ability has been diluted (maybe justifiably so more than just ONE class should be able to tank).

The Warrior pays the price of his "defensive" abilities in lack of offensive abilites (again maybe that in itself is justifiable).

The problem begins there that while trying to keep balance to other classes defensive abilities and limiting a Warriors offensive output. Well the two are just never going to mesh.
It can't happen. You can not limit the Warrior to being defensive while making them non-offensive and also making so more than just a Warrior can reasonably tank.

Ok that should outline the problem. Now how do you find a solution? Well the thing always ignored in defensive and offensive arguments concerning Warriors is their complete lack of spells and their total dependancy on equipment. So do we give Warriors spells? NO!

My idea of a solution would to be to give the Warrior some things that more sense. Bash/Kick to actually cause REAL stuns that produce aggro even if they dont land. A cripling blow that actually CRIPPLES the mob and possibly causes a minor snare effect. A critical hit that causes aggro and a minor stun or attack debuff on the mob (instead of it being eye candy).
See the solution ISNT a better Taunt key or more damage but more hits and abilities that CAUSE taunt and MITIGATE damage to you.
To simplify that does anybody think that a Warrior delivering a critical hit hit to the arm/leg/head/or uhm other areas of his opponent isnt going to slow them down in some way and really annoy them?

Another nice thing to see would be things like run speed1 as an natural ability at 20 RS2 at 40 and RS3 at 60 instead of it being an AA ability. We ARE physically fit right? It just makes sense that we can run faster than some scrawny out of shape caster that spent too much time in a library without magical assistance. Other things like this where spells would normally be used by casters Warriors could have lessor versions as NATURAL abilities. Maybe reduced aggro ranges instead of invis. I mean what green con in their right mind want to mess with a high level fully armored Warrior if they do not have to?

This however doesnt relieve the huge problem that seriously gets overlooked is the Warriors reliance on equipment really is a good thing (I think) but the problem is that equipment is almost always wearable by other classes (and good for those classes) and way to rare. The solution to this is really one of 2 things I see. More Warrior ONLY equipment and weapons that drop more frequently (Why should a Warrior have to compete with a Cleric for a nice bp or cant get that high ac/hp mask because it has ft5 on it? It is just silly Warriors should have their OWN eq) or Warriors should have higher NATURAL ac and hp than they do now to compensate for the eq in any case Warriors need a way to relieve competition for eq with other non-Warriors.

I do agree that the disc times are way to high nothing should be over 25 min or so at level 60 (for any class not just Warriors)

In summary increasing damage and/or defense really isnt the solution and will just become MORE of a problem the solution is going to be giving Warriors more natural non-magical abilities that would be fitting for a Warrior to have. Making a Warrior a better tank wont fix us not needing more than 1-2 Warriors on a raid and giving us a better offense will only unbalance the other classes and really doesn't fix us either.
However giving us a way for us to build aggro and/or mitigate small amounts of damage on a tank (not just ourselves as a tank) and keep mobs off casters DOES give us a reason to have more than one Warrior on a raid as the Warriors will all be building aggro and able to take a few hits here and there. We would not be able to CONTROL that aggro like an SK, Rogue, Pally, or Ranger so it would help us not take away from those classes. We wouldnt be able to grab aggro as fast or lose it as fast as those classes but would would ALWAYS be high on a hate list like we should be.

I am not sure it makes a Warrior more fun to play... Those of us that chose a Warrior to play really knew Warriors are kind of one dimensional (we hit stuff it hits us back pretty simple) to start with and I don't think many of us expect that to change. We also knew we were going to tank that wont change either we are still marginally the best for the position and us having more aggro and mitigate some damage in some way from our normal hits not taunt or any special abilities should even help that along.

Uhgg Lee
56 Warrior -- Fennin Ro Edited by: Uhgg Lee at: 8/28/02 12:27:38 am

[EZ_Filan Fyretracker]

Bodyguard could also add a whole new profit engine to EQ, imagine charging someone to BG them for an hour or two. or another idea would be Bouncer giving increased attack and Defence as long as you are with in a certain radius of where you activated the ability.

[EZ_o0o Myka o0o]

I like the bodyguard skill very much. It would be a nice addition as task for all the warriors that also came to a raid that won't be tanking. Let them bodyguard the casters so they only get half the damage when they happen to aggro. Also maybe the warrior with bodyguard skill should be able to get the damage of bolt spells which are directed to the one that is being protected.

Add some nice new bodyshields that are extremely big and add extra percentage of bodyguard skill and you have a great extra feature to the warrior

Nance Spiderbite
59th Fierce Tierdal Warrior
Guardian of Rallos Zek Adelancia Blackmace
51 Human Shadow-Knight
Innoruuk's Curse

[EZ_Arative]

Well if you talking purely a raid warrior, there is one thing I'd like to see done.

1) Removal of the defensive disc, its a crutch. Instead give warriors a seperate damage mitigation table. I was thinking something along the lines of an AC based table, like 1400ac 2% damage mitigation increase, 1450ac 3% damage mitigation increase, etc... Althought the arguement can be made that, that change would not effect warriors in a non-raid guild, the different mitigation table could be level based, from maybe 50-60, with increasing amounts of damage mitigation reaching the max of 15%. Warriors tank, thats what we do best, thats why we dont have spells or do massive damage, so make us the best at it.

I don't want taunt changed at all and here is the reason why.
I was thinking last night, my guild was killing Diabo Xi Xin Thall, thats the one the silence, anyway, our MT dies, and I'm 2nd tank. Cant really use AE taunt there, no telling what it might bring, so getting agro is a real challenge, no procs, just my taunt button and the occasional agro spell from the our enchanters. It was a real challenge, making sure I had solid agro and I realized, I don't want taunt to be a gaurnteed agro generator. That would make the game incredibly boring. My entire guild had to work together in order for me to maintain taunt. Thats what makes the game fun for me, working together with friends to accomplish something.

One thing I'd like to see for fun is boots that proc. Having boots that have a dd effect would be pretty cool.
Arative
Vae Inimicus

[EZ_Bloodshard]

Since April 1999 I think I can safely critique suggestions made thus far.

---------------
Battle Cry
Warrior calls out a powerful Battle Cry that encourages his comrades.

Lets all group members who are currently meleeing to Flurry on the current mob.

My take:
This is interesting in theory but questions arise. Is this a proc that happens every so often? Is this a discipline (see below)? It would make for some interesting group options but for the most part it really takes away a bit from bards since this is mostly what they do. I think this is much more fitting to a bard then a warrior. As much fun as it would be to make killer xps groups (monk,rogue,warrior,rogue,cleric,bard or variation thereof) it really doesn't fit a warrior as well.
-----------
Wall of Defense
Multiple warriors in a group can set up a defensive wall and 60% of the damage will be given to each of them

My take:
I like this. Would give back up tanks more of a purpose if there's a good way to code it without having to force them all to group together. Might actually cause people to change from the 1 Main tank at a time cycle on boss mob encounters, if done right.

----------
Bodyguard
As long as the warrior remains in melee range of the mob, any damage that mob does to the guarded PC is halved, with the balance applied to the Bodyguard. Activate the ability with a PC targetted.

My take:
This one is I think the best suggestion so far. It would give back up warriors (not main tank) more of a purpose on a raid, they could lock on to people they know are going to be taking a beating like enchanters. I really like this one!
------------
Weapon Specialization
Warriors will be able to specialize in a chosen weapon type.

My take:
Well nice in theory but unless you give 2handers some major major improvements warriors just can't give up the taunt of a 1 handers as a main weapon if they are usually main tank.

Also by nature 1 handed slash is going to be taken. The warrior epic is mostly used as 1 handed slash mode, warriors are more likely to get high end 1 hand slash weapons. Now I'm sure you'd see a few variations but for the most part this would be wasted.
-----------------
Damage Mitigation Table
Put Warriors on their own unique damage mitigation table

My take:
Nice. Warriors are tanks, not much else. If you jack up shield tanking ability then warriors become less of tanks & well, what much else are they good for?
----------------
Indominitable
The ability for a warrior to refuse to die. If activated, the warrior will stay alive for 6 seconds, at which point they will drop dead regardless.

My take:
The 'If activated' part of this worries me. If it's not a discipline that's ok (see below). It would give warriors one more button to keep an eye on in combat which is nice & give warriors acting as back up tanks something to do if they suddenly get aggro & already used their discipline.
----------------
Offensive Disciplines
Offensive Disciplines should be given a different timer than defensive disciplines.

Reduce reuse time on offensive disciplines greatly and create several new quick and interesting offensive disciplines.

Tendon Slash - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks low towards the feet of the mob, with a chance to permanently snare it's opponent.

Concussion - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks at the head of caster mobs, with a chance to temporarily disable the caster's ability to regenerate mana.

Shield Push - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior pushes the mob with his shield, with a chance to knock back the mob 10 feet. (Shield is required)

Arm Slash - 2 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior attacks the arms of the mob, with a chance to temporarily lessen the damage output of the mob.

Beserker Rage - 5 minute offensive discipline reuse
The warrior can activate his beserker rage for 30 seconds.

My take:
Outstanding!
Very nice if the first line is taken into account.

Problem with current warrior disciplines is there is about 1-3 max a warrior uses at any given time. With the aggro loss on the riposte discipline I've all but discarded that now. The defensive & evasive disciplines are of course golden. other then that Fortitude is your get out of corpse recovery free card but the reuse timer on this makes it not used often. Aggresive & mighty are fun & somewhat useful if going all out on a mob. Other than that the use of disciplines really screeches to a dead stop.

The problem is recharge. You only get 1 use of discipline. If you use a discipline on any thing but a boss monster you literally waste the discipline in most conditions. If you split offensive defensive disciplines & added some quick reuse ones that might give disciplines more use. Also back up warriors could definitely do more then just try & keep their aggro down. Giving warriors variation on tacticial roles is very fitting & really would help warriors have more of use in combat then.

Joe, your main tank. Bob is 2nd tank. The rest of you try not to draw aggro. Bloodshard OggWarrior-Chef
'You see in this world there are two kinds of people my friend, those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.'-The Man with No Name

[EZ_Inkiewiz]

I liked the above idea of the war scream - something that briefly improves everyone's damage output. When I see "ASSIST ME NOW on %t" in the raid channel and ooc, I picture the MT just -roaring- it out. It's like a rebel yell, like we're all naked and painted blue, or Zulus or something. And everyone springs into action at the same second. So yeah, I could totally see an ability where the warrior inspires a burst of extra damage from people.

I think making warriors more interesting is different than making them more effective. Fiddling with their existing skills might make them more effective, but not necessarily more interesting. Personally, most of my fun as a rogue comes from special abilities - sneak, hide, safe fall, pick lock, poison, etc. - not from dishing out damage, though of course it's nice to see high backstabs. Clicky toys are also fun. Pualani
Blackguard
Torvonnilous

[EZ_Xryn]

I can't comprehend why people play classes/characters they don't like. If you find warriors boring play another class. You knew by lvl 30 or so the basics what its like to play class x. By 50 you should've been on some lowbie raids and knew you're roll there.

I'm not against giving a class more balance. I don't play a warrior but from what i read it seems they need a better taunt and higher AC. Fine by me, but does that make it more interesting, no. Radically changing a class to make it more fun to YOU is wrong. There are lots of classes to chose from, find one you don't find boring and play it. If you're too lazy to lvl up another toon then admit that you're lazy and stop asking for more stuff.

I play a rogue and a necro. They are not easy to play. I knew that going in and chose that path. If you're bored of hittting autoattack then roll up a bard/necro/druid/shammy/chanter.

X

[EZ_Shintara]

the battle cry would be cool... however... the effects lasting period and reuse time will have to be severly cut. it wouldnt last that long simply because just think... guild has 8 warriors... each one taking turns on battlecry... that may or may not last the entire raid and the whole guild could flurry majority of the time... so if something like that happened, (which would be hella cool), it would only last for 3 seconds at most i would think.


Edit: Please read our sig rules. Personal pics and sigs mustn't be more than 15kbyte combined. - ShadowCross Edited by: Shadowcross at: 8/28/02 12:07:39 pm

[EZ_Kailyn Of Povar]

Nothing really to add but thanks for this great (and high quality) thread.

As a couple of points: at the moment at the high end on raids the differnace between warrior tanking and knight tanking are razor thin. Suggestion that remove /def without a corrisponding increase in our general tanking ablitly effectively removes any reason to use warriors. Warriors in XP groups, certantly at 60th and probably far before, thanks to mudfaltion, are overtanking for any reasonable groups--knights can tank any XP group just fine. Tradition has kept warrriors tanking not really any need.

FYI: I know of no guilds that currently use MT switching just because defesive is down on the main tank. I can tell you that defesive is not needed for DaVin, the West ToV named, the First Broods, RoS, or Sontalok.

On the whole all these suggestions look great and thanks! Kailyn Longstride Warlord of the North, Unleashed
Dythe Einarsdottir, 47th Rogue

Melee questions? Click the lastname. Click Kailyn for Magelo profile.

[DarthEnder]

Oh great, now even Vaslin is posting non-rogues stuff on the Safehouse. What is the world coming too??

But to answer the question. The two ideas I like best that may somewhat CHANGE warriors to be more interesting is the shieldwall/guard ideas.

I like the idea of a warrior being able to set himself up to protect a person and take all or some percentage of the damage that person takes on himself instead.

Perhaps as a little balance they should have to have a shield equipped while they do this and stay next to the person they are guarding.

I can see several warriors guarding the MT warrior and spreading the damage out.

[EZ_Dovan]

I seriously love the idea of having some 'combat skills' but I don't think they should be /disc types. Instead, give it to us on a hotbutton like kick/slam/disarm, that has a timer of a minute or two.

As for what should be there... well, like many warriors out there, we know besides enraging blow weapons, that debuffs are a great way to get somethings attention.

So how about like someone said earlier about attacks that target an area of the body...

Disable Arm (gaw, some useless name we'll make an acronym for) that debuffs atk and str for a period of time. 'Vindi's arm falls useless to his side, unable to be raised.'

Or perhaps weapon specific attacks like the stunning blow that will stun something for a period of time, but has to use a blunt weapon to use. This really shouldn't be a hell of a coding job, as backstab checks to make sure a rogue uses a piercing weapon.

I also, personally love the bodyguard idea. Pull....target chanter, /bodyguard Agro_Magnet_Chanter14. Chanter lands slow, agro goes towards him like half the freakin time, warrior saves his/her sorry arse.

I'm sure I could come up with some other ideas, but I love some of the ideas presented here. Question is, will VI even give us half a thought.
Dovan Longtooth
The Big Blue Bear
Hey! It's ME!
"Your heart understands what your head cannot yet conceive; trust your heart."

[EZ_Axterix EnObelix]

>D"> amage Mitigation Table
Put Warriors on their own unique damage mitigation table

Bad idea unless int casters are boosted in their defensive areas. Remember, mobs are designed to kill the tanks. But those mobs will at some point hit an int caster. Don't go saying it is the job of an int caster to not get hit. It's my job to tick off unengaged mobs but mobs designed to hurt today's tanks shred me far more than they should.

I'd much rather see the AC on item to worn ratio changed. Int casters are currently at 1:1.2. Everyone else is at 1:1.55. Change that. Leave cloth where it is at. Make leather 1:1.3. Chain at 1:1.4. The non-warrior plate classes at 1:1.5. Leave warriors where they are right now, at 1:1.55. Yup, it's a bit of a nerf. A bunch of people lose AC. But I'd rather see a nerf than more content trivialized. It'll help balance all/all items. If you can yank the soft cap as well, everyone can be on the same table and it's all good.

[EZ_Kailyn Of Povar]

That does not solve the problem of the 1250 (or so) soft cap. I have no where near the top end gear (though, I would have to admit, I am low uber) and am pushing 1250 AC unbuffed. Unfortuantly all melee classes can hit it, and not with too much more effort, even with your proposed change.

And I have the feeling that the soft cap is a 'deep' problem within the combat engin--though Verant thought that Stacking was too, until they took a hard look at it (and probably spent lots and lots and lots of skull sweat). Kailyn Longstride Warlord of the North, Unleashed
Dythe Einarsdottir, 47th Rogue

Melee questions? Click the lastname. Click Kailyn for Magelo profile.

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

no, axterix, that wont work.

even if all ratios were changed to 1:1, monks, warriors... hell, even a lot of casters, would STILL be over the soft cap.

and so nothing would change.

if the problem were to be fixed through AC ratios, as you suggest, it would have to go the other way... plate retains its current value, and all other armor types get nerfed (with cloth ending at somewhere around 0.5).

this is a solution no one would like (except some of us plaet classes).

no, the solution has to be through upgrading warrior defensive tables while NOT changiong mob atk values/max hits.

[EZ_TibisHatter]

Bah Vaslin, spell Indomitable right

(didn't want to edit it myself due to the way EZBoard can do funky things to HTML formatting during edits...)

[Jazya]

Double, triple or hell, QUADRUPLE the "hate" caused by two-handed weapons.

Warriors would easily be able to hold aggro over non-casting knights due to triple attack, and the margin should be wide enough to allow a dual-wielding class to deal 1.2-1.3x as much damage and still not get aggro from damage-induced hate alone.

If a Warrior wants to go offensive, whip out 2 weapons. If a Warrior, Knight, Monk, hell a Ranger wants to pull aggro, they go 2h to really piss the mob off. Dual-wielders only (bards, beastlords, rogues) would draw less aggro than a 2h class innately if this were the case. Let the classes with the tools do the work.

Which would you avoid first? Getting your head crushed in with a massive halberd strike, or prickled in the back by a pair of nails? Which would piss you off worse?

Thats what I thought.

When you picture a Warrior, what do you picture? A burly type with an even-uglier-than-it-is-huge nasty looking 2handed weapon, or dual wielding some skull on a stick and a sceptre with sparklie jewels in it? Edited by: JazyaVechette at: 8/28/02 5:40:07 pm

[DarthEnder]

Probably a easier way to code the bodyguard thing is to have any of the Hate generate by the person your guarding pass to you instead. That way, the mob just attacks you to begin with.

Not as effective though as allowing you to take rampage or AoE damage that person takes in addition to direct attacks.

[EZ_Loydah Furiousheart]

There are several problems brought up here smashed together into one. Let me try to separate them more.

1. Problem
Warriors feel neglected by VI seeing all classes getting pretty nice upgrades over the several expansions we went through.

The Last Upgrade: Honestly I cannot remember, probably taunt of 60+ mobs or 2hander damage bonus although this was not directed at warriors

The Last Fix: Taunt fixed in CT

Why has VI - short of AA xp and new items - never given the warriors something? We always get to hear 2 reasonings: /disc defensive and evasive + we are the basis of all the melees, everyone is scaled around us.

Now what can VI do about this?

First and foremost, get rid of disc defensive/evasive. We are sick and tired to be neglected any form of improvement based on something back from 2 expansions. Now see what you have left and define what you want a warrior to be.

Analyze the classes along these lines:

War: Mediocre dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, mediocre dmg avoider, mediocre taunter, no utility

Pal: Worst dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, mediocre dmg avoider, best taunter, best utility

Shd: Worst dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, mediocre dmg avoider, best taunter, high utility

Mnk: High dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, best dmg avoider, high taunter (through pure dps), high utility

Rog: Best dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, best dmg avoider, high taunter (through pure dps), mediocre utility

Rng: High dmg dealer, mediocre dmg mitigator, mediocre dmg avoider, best taunter, high utility

You should already notice that every class is best at something, except warrior class.
My proposal if you want a warrior to tank would include new mitigation table for knights and warriors (after all thats what you've done for monks - their own dmg table). Take away parry from warriors and give us block (at a lower skill lvl then monks - this would set us apart from knights in the tanking department).
Then add some utility. There have been quite some suggestions (look at DAoC for some ideas - one i would favor is intercept). And no. We don't need itembased utility. ITEM FIX = BAD.

Second, please acknowledge that all classes as of now have surpassed the base class you always refer us to. We are sick and tired to be used as basis for all other classes. We have been surpassed in all territories, there is nothing left where warriors excel at, except hp and items. Please acknowledge that it is BAD when a class is defined by items. You will never ever reach balance throughout the game via items.

2. Problem
Our taunting is broken.

I don't think we can ask for more there. After all there has to be some drawback. This is ours. VI hates MT strategy and that is the reason we'll never see a taunt with an EB like effect. Your only chance is to get one of the more rare weapons that hold aggro well. You will still rely on your raid/party to keep aggro in check but to a much lesser degree.

3. Problem
We do not stack within our current role. You only need finite people tanking a mob and our dmg output does lack severly.

On a raid or xp group there is only need for so many warriors (2-3 enough for ANYTHING in raids). To add to our stackability you could grant us a dmg mode we could switch into. Take away 50 % of our hp when we go into that mode. Something like "Loydah has entered a state of massive combat furry" You could switch in and out of this mode once every 5 EQ days. This would grant us superior attacking from behind a mob. How that is done i dont know. This is just an idea you could toss around.



Edit: Please read our sig rules. Personal pic and sig mustn't be more than 15kbyte combined. - ShadowCross Edited by: Shadowcross at: 8/30/02 2:10:55 am

[EZ_TarskXev]

As a Warrior I don't want variety. I don't want to be able to do fancy special things. I just want to be able to tank better than monk_01 next to me, and Shadowknight_01 next to him.

Give me a new mitigation table, an upgraded taunt (not a 100% guaranteed taunt, mind you) and I'll be perfectly happy.

Don't you think it's funny that the knight classes get *class* AA skills that increase their tanking ability (Phyiscal Enhancement), but that Warriors don't? --
Tarsk Longstrider, BigBaldBarb
Warlord of the Wolves o' the North
~Omerta~Xev~

[EZ_Uthuk]

I)
Shieldwall and bodyguard features would add alot to the warrior stacking issues and also add to exp grinding versatility.

II)
Our own defensive table is also something that we really want.

III)
Some combat moves as described above to allow a warrior to choose if he is going to play a defensive or offensive role in an encounter.
This need to be handled in short duration and reuse steps for it to work. A warrior switching from offensive to defensive mode should not take more than a couple seconds.
In DAoC to take an example you have skills that requires other moves to have been succesively performed before. This way might work in EQ too to make a warriors role alittle more flexible, as you can in mid fight realise you need to step up to tank and then you start your defensive moves chain and aborts the offensive mode you use right now etc.

However I personally would like to see options I and II implemented in some form rather than III) Of course I wouldnt complain if all 3 were implemented. The moves would be a nice way to close the big damage output gap between warrior/Knights and the monk/rogues (no not close it altogether of course, just so we get back to the 86/100/120/140 base again). Nirre60 warriorXev

[EZ_Northerner]

(As a note TarskXev, I see Rogues/Monks/Warriors are getting Physical Enhancement on Test. That will help some, except versus Monks of course.)

There are a number of other things that could be done.

I would vote for more differentiation in weapon selection, allowing Warriors to choose damage dealing versus damage absorption roled if properly equipped. A Warrior should have the option to bank the EB weapons in many exp groups or as non-tanking raid additions. Two-handers are the more obvious solution for this but I see that the shield changes may cause trouble here. If those go live then Warriors will *need* equivalent one handers to Paladins and SKs in my opinion.

Higher Mitigation caps is part of an answer also. This one is a little troublesome but I do feel that Warriors need something here and something that makes the class a specialist in the area beyond Defensive. The trick is to avoid simply mudflating the whole business, causing casters and Rogues/Rangers to get eaten all the time.

Celeris Tujimson
Assassin of The Nameless
"They sicken of the calm that know the storm." - Dorothy Parker

[EZ_Lyenae RZ]

Warriors should have flexibility in fighting. It's funny though you mention 'suggestions to avoid', as if those aren't the solutions, but they are. Stop beating around the bush... cuz those obvious answers will fix the problem. I'm surprised alot of people are entertaining you with 'useful' Verant features (seems kinda kool but have no utility whatsoever sup 30aa warcry.)

1) Warrior defensive and aggresive should become fighting modes No need to be disciplines. You should be able to fight aggresively (having a very high dps) or fight defensively or evasively, or precisely AT WILL (5 sec change.) This will add flexibility to the class, and also make them useful to have tons of em on raids. Yes, the effects of the disciplines as they are would have to be changed so that defensive and evasive aren't as powerful as they are now (not much though), and aggresive/precision enhanced, but it would make warriors ALOT better at what they do. To those that say "that will trivialize high end content!" It needs trivializing. 8 Cleric CH lines with 2 modrod2 factories and a dedicated mod rod shuffler are absurd, and anything that will knock a minute or 2 off 30 minute encounters will be welcomed by anyone.

2) Warrior taunt should be an autosuccess on anything your level or lo You are seriously on crack if you think cuz of our great defensive abilities we deserve crappy taunting. That's verant thinking... "lets give them a good feature but not allow them to get any use out of it." It is unfair that every member of a group has to perform at 80% efficiency (controlling nukes, evading aggro, FD, etc) just to let the warrior perform at 100%. Aggro management is not an enjoyable feature of EQ gameplay, it shouldn't be a complex issue for warriors that lack dual EB weapons. Edited by: Vaslin at: 8/29/02 12:32:56 pm

[EZ_Naam Datoon]

The original topic of this thread was basically "How do we make it more interesting to play a warrior"

Allow warriors to target thier attacks!!

Click the mobs head (or /aimattacks head) while you are attacking and you have a chance to interupt spells or stun it (maybe permanently if you get my drift).

Click the arm (/aimattacks arms) and get a chance to disarm or progressively reduce damage being delivered by the mob or slow its attack rate.

Click the legs (/aimattacks legs) to progressively slow a mobs run speed or stop it all together.

Click the torso (default attack mode) because gosh darn it this mob keeps moving and has scrawny lil frog limbs and I am wasting a lot of swings (by missing) trying to hit this lil thing and the torso is nice and big and easy to hit.

Now tell me THAT isn't a huge leap from /assist /attack /kick
/taunt.

If warriors are the "Masters of the Battlefield" then let us use what we have learned in the field against our enemies. You'd think after whacking a million mobs on the arms warriors would have learned that hitting the arms weakens the attacks. This is similar to how rogues have learned the back is more vulnerable to a backstab or knowledge of humaniod anatomy allows for assasinations.

I dont know how hard this would be to implelement or if this is such a huge change to the game that people would all want to start playing warriors. But it sounds good to me!! Now if only someone will let the developers know this idea exists....


Naam Datoon
58 Warrior
Tribunal Server

[EZ_Ed Tu Brutus]

The whole idea that Warriors can be somehow changed for a tiny minority of high level players to feel more useful is an incredibly scary one.

The implementation of Warriors - that of being able to trigger Defensive and out-tank anyone - is required for the entire gammut of content between, hmm, Trakanon and past North ToV. Without those abilities, you yet again create an artificial gulf between those who have passed that content and those who are currently working with it - the current mainstream bunch need far more - more numbers, more equipment, more time - than was ever needed and the gap grows.

There is an argument that Verant could redesign the content, reduce the difficulty of the mobs. I don't buy it, mainly as Verant's history of living up to such promises is rather lacking (Shamans Disease would "get something special" when it was nerfed to oblivion - nothing happened, for example).

What *is* needed is for Verant to start rewarding the acucmulated AC which Warriors are the best at achieving.

Remembering that the benefit of AC is based on the mob you fight, there is currently a huge gap around 1400AC (where are XP mobs top out) to (one presumes) 2000AC or more where one would expect mitigation to begin with the current uber-mobs to actually begin.

But again thats redesign and Verant don't have a good record there.

To be honest, I do think Verant are learning. Before Cazic Thule 2 there was virtually no content where AC above 1200 was useful. Cazic Thule 2 makes AC useful right up to 1400AC or so - that's a *great* change for Warriors as mainstream guild warriors can get right in that 1300AC to 1400AC range whereas the Monks in their guild *cannot* (remember talking mainstream players).

It is highly likely that Planes of Power will demonstrate much more of this - where the mob ATK is tuned more closely for varying AC levels instead of the utterly incompetent way Verant simply put insane ATK on current boss mobs.

That's really what Warriors should look out for. Making changes in the game which hurt others in the meantime is not the solution.

Regards,
Eduin Eduin Tu'Brutus, 60th Barbarian Shaman
Edashi Tu'Brutus, 60th Iksar Monk
Edashi Tu'Brutus, 56th Gnomish Wizard
I'd rather steal music from the Internet than risk buying a legitimate CD with copy protection measures that mean it won't work on my playback systems..

[EZ_Kailyn Of Povar]

There are a couple of flaws with your Defesive argument:

1) It brings nothing to the pre-55th level warrior.

2) It brings nothing to the XPing warrior. (As a tanget the rediculous refresh times on offencive disaplines make them useless because the smart warrior will want to save defesive for that one bad pull an hour...)

3) Its not critical for the encounters you describe. And RoK eara encounters are over so fast that disaplines hardly matter for warriors.

4) If it were nearly as key as you suggest, then MT switching would be key for any ToV encounters+. No raiding guild currently uses MT switching once warrior defesive falls. One of my guilds SKs tanked 60% of Rumble..until he wondered out of range of the clerics. We have not done NToV yet, but all the other named we have killed...with out MT switching, without MT death, and all those fights are closer to the 10 minute mark. That means the other 3-4 warriors on the raid got nothing out of their defesive.

5) Only in limited cases have warriors ask for the nerf bat, but so would you when one class can simultanously out tank and out damage you. And Verant has broken the raitos on which they set their class balancing...badly.

6) The newest encounters are being designed to minimize the effects of Defesivne. The Ring of Slime--for example, lasts 20-30 minutes. What makes or breaks that encouter are enchaters and mages.

7) Mudflation is hurting warriors at all level...most XP groups (even ones that would qualify for the new high risk XP bonuses on test) don't need warriors tanking--mudflation has raise the ACs off all classes enough that probably any melee can do a compitent job of tanking. THis goes hand in hand with the increased DPS of melees at all levels.

The premis of this thread is that warriors are broken...you want to argue they are not, I suggest you take the argument to some other board...where the issues ahve been discussed at rediculous lenght--like Steel Warriors or the FoH boards.

9) And though I can't point you to the original quote, 1/2 of the active accounts in EQ have one or more 50+ level toon.

10) Look at the amount of competition for raid targets on your server. If there are not 400+ player competeing for it on your server I would be surprised. THe number of people in the 'high end game' is mroe than you think. I would guess some where over 20% of the active players.



Kailyn Longstride Warlord of the North, Unleashed
Dythe Einarsdottir, 47th Rogue

Melee questions? Click the lastname. Click Kailyn for Magelo profile.

[EZ_kaldanm]

(Please excuse my orthografic mistakes, I am a french player )
Woohoo !
I like your Idea, Lyenae RZ. the "Stance mode" for Warrior.
As a warrior for my Main (currently 54, so not only interested in raid stuffs ).
I think the warrior must not become a caster machine, WITHOUT lots of "/slash hit-the finger-to-lower-the-atk" style. that's Shammy debuffs... In my point point of view the warrior must be some rigid fighter, Ultra effective in defensive type tanking, but not a great damage dealer, except when he goes all out.
Your Idea can be equilibrated if the warrior win stance with lvls (Evasive at 52, defensive at 55, aggressive at 60, like disc). So you go in your disc who last 6 minutes but you cannot change or go back to normal until 3 minutes. So you cannot see warriors change stance, everytime, at each pull... and we could use those "Precise" and "Aggressive" stuff the time we're not MT.

Of course, duration time and reuse time need to be calculated to be tested... to be useful, but not all powerful. No way we should be better than monks in damaging.

Wioth this system you could include the "Wall of defense" es a /disc, or extend it to defensive.

(Defensive and evasivewhich need to be lowered for balancing. In this case new mitigation will apply if you go defensive, so a Damaging warrior will not have the same defense)

It will also be great to imagine that offensive stuff will not be on the same timer... so if you use mightystrike you will not become the "useless plate guy who does fun crtitical spam sometimes, but take the monk, he's better in all ways".

That's my point of view... I really think that warriors shouldn't be flexible too much, because the nature of the class is only fighting and killing.



(it's not the subjet, but Verant, if you read this, Remove the cap of 200 in alcool tolerance . please, I need it, I don't have valuable justification to fall in Icewell keep once I attained it)

[EZ_eandail]

Well i know you said not to mention it but dmg delt by a warrior does need to be addressed. I have no problem with the 1, 1.2, 1.4 ratios that verant stated for warrior monks rogues. The problem is that in the very end game that just doesn't hold any longer. a 16/20 weapons vs a 17/29 weapon is not a 1 to 1.2 ratio. Warriors need thier end game weapons upgraded so their dmg is where its suppose to be. The fact that they need to be wielding weapons with enraging blow is just further proof of this. Thier dmg output is so far below monk and rogues that even with them trying to avoid aggro and wielding a HUGE aggro proc they still can't hold aggro easily.

Warriors do need some advantage for taking dmg. Better defensive tables. Reworking of the attack system or changing attacks of mobs so that ac can make a difference. An innate defensive like ability. Something to give warriors an advantage at tanking. There also needs to be more zones like CT too where you can fight high lvl difficult mobs and make good exp. This will not only help a warriors desirablility in groups in at least some zone but also clerics.

I think warriors also need an innate Natural durability type effect. Back in the day most peoples hps came from thier natural hps and that left warriors with an appropriate advantage in hps over monks and even pally/sks. The problem is that so much more of our hps now comes from gear that the remaining difference has become alot smaller percent.

And just in general verant needs to back down a little from there over raction of melee vs caster dmg output. You go from one end where casters can't really bring any real dmg to a fight to melee's bringing almost nothing to the fight. The emp or seru seem to be the oppitimy of this. Casters doing huge times more dmg than melees in a long term fight which is exactly where they are suppose to beat out casters. Bane weapons and mitigation up the wazoo at the same time IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

[EZ_Taliaferro Erucolindo]

The main problem I have with my main character (51st level Wood Elf Warrior) is that I didn't sign on to be a meatshield, but that's all Verant seems to want to let Warriors be.

It seems that there are different opinions ("visions" if you will) of what a "Warrior" class should be. Some envision a Warrior as being an offensive class...a master of melee offense....capable of dealing out the most damage with weapons, at the sacrifice of being good at anything else (no casting, no special abilities, etc). Others envision a Warrior as being a defensive class...a master of taking the punch....capable of absorbing the most damage period, at the sacrifice of being good at anything else (as above). Yet others see them as being a mix of the two above ideas.

Sadly for me, Verant sees Warriors as being only mediocre damage dealers, and instead being the "meatshield" class of EQ. My personal vision does not agree with that assessment, but I have no say so in the matter. I must be what Verant dictates a Warrior is supposed to be, or else play another class.

So, where does that leave us?

We're only fourth best at melee output (so much for my dreams of what a Warrior should be) and while at some levels we're still the best meatshields, at the high end of the game, we aren't even that. Verant seems willing to consider adjusting us, but only if we don't step on anyone else's role, or ask to be what some of us wanted Warriors to be in the first place (offensive damage dealers).

By the way, just because we're the class that everyone is "balanced" by for melee damage, doesn't mean that we have to be mediocre at it. Nor does it mean that they can't (or shouldn't) look at the numbers and realize that we are NOT where a class called "Warrior" should be in relation to the other melee classes.

I seriously want us to have more DPS across the board. Not as much as a Rogue (from *behind* the MOB) or as much as a Ranger with a bow (in ranged combat), but those are the only two situations that I can rationally see anyone outperforming a Warrior in melee combat. Sorry Monks, you should be the masters of self-defense ("Best defense, no be there"), hardest to hit, and yes, have good melee output, but not more than a Warrior with weapons. That's just my opinion.

Even putting my opinion aside, Verant claims that the order should be Rogues, Monks, Warriors, then Rangers and Knights. Unfortunately, that's not what the numbers are parsing out to be. It's turning into Rogues (WAY in front, by far more of a margin than Verant says they intended), Monks (ditto, just not as much), then Rangers, THEN Warriors, then Knights. Vaslin, please don't just say "Don't suggest more damage" because we need precisely that to even get to where Verant claims they wanted us in the first place.

There are some excellent suggestions in this thread, and many of them would give not only more options and more functionality (the different attacks, the seperate timers for offensive and defensive discs, etc), but one in particular struck me as potentially giving Warriors both extra functionality AND give Warriors like me a chance to be closer to what we wanted to be in the first place:

Combat Stances.

Offensive Stance - We willingly sacrifice damage absorption in favor of doing more damage per second across the board (with all attacks).

Defensive Stance - We willingly sacrifice damage per second across the board in favor of more damage absorption.

Normal Stance - As we are now.

This would give us versatility in raid and group situations (MT Warrior uses Defensive Stance, other Warriors can use Offensive Stance, or whatever they see fit), as well as let Warriors who thought a Warrior would be a damage dealer, not a punching bag, be the Warrior they always wanted in the first place.

Place whatever constraints you feel necessary on it (it has a refresh timer so you can't constantly switch between them, or whatever you feel you must do). At the very least, understand that more DPS for Warriors is needed, just to put us where you claimed you wanted us, and many of us would sacrifice some of our damage absorption to have it (as a Wood Elf, I'll probably not ever be the MT in a raid situation, so I'd love to at least be able to do more DPS while someone else is MT'ing).

Just my long-winded opinion, thanks for allowing me to post it here.

Taliaferro Erucolindo
Fier'Dal Champion of Emerald and Steel
Guardian of the Shining Star of Light
Officer of Giliath Lang

[EZ_Glatius2]

pub14.ezboard.com/ftheste...1984.topic

All this discussion may be rather moot, since Verant appears unlikely to give it serious weight.

[Jazya]

I can't agree more that "aggro" attacks from warriors should inherently be less damaging. I think 2h aggro increase is a good way to do this. (see my above post)

If this is the case (2h being the taunter's weapon of choice) then Knights would unfortunately need BIG upgrades to their 1h lines, in order to keep up with dual wield damage (NOT MATCH).

Knighs have their spells for additional taunt/dmg/utility that they can use while equipping a shield and superior-to-warrior-ratio 1h weapons. If shield avoid/mit changes go through, increased aggro that a knight offers + increased avoid/mit from a shield would overbalance them against warriors IMO.

So what to give warriors? Triple attack should put them solidly ahead of non-casting Knights with my 2h aggro suggestion. Enraging blow weapons are NOT the answer. Warriors need:

a) their own increased mit table (LONG overdue) AC should softcap out higher for warriors than any other plate tank

b) ability hold aggro over moderately-casting knights with similar quality low-aggro weapons, without the warrior having to resort to eb-type procs

c) a sufficient damage increase to outdamage knights wielding similar-quality (superior ratio) 1h knight weapons when using a shield, AND to return warriors to the 100% they were intended to be in VI's 100/120/140 model in their "offensive, low-aggro" mode

d) warrior-unique utilities with shields. something equivalent to DAoC'ish guard/protect abilities. AA shield bash ability that allows reduced-duration stun/interrupt even on mobs flagged as immune. or even better ability for multiple warriors to physically block NPC Pathing. i.e. gone beeline-aggro after a caster

e) alternate to c), some sort of "team" ability that allows warriors to scale up in power when grouped/linked WITH OTHER WARRIORS. example... for each warrior attacking a target, they enhance each other. say warrior 1 does 70dps and warrior 2 does 80dps. together they do 165dps (70+80=150 150x1.1=165) add warrior 3 who by himself does 75 and together all 3 do ~260 (3 combined x 1.15)

I don't think primary-only Warrior useable 1h wapons that are Knight-level ratio is the answer. You could just dual wield one of those with an_offhand01, as I don't think it would be reasonably possible to code those weapons to require a shield to equip those weapons. Who knows, VI may surprise us. Suffice to say, I'd hate for them to overnight decide that Knights are going to be the only viable endgame-encounter tank, as nobody else will be able have both sides of the tank equiation: ability to hold SUFFICIENT aggro (spells) AND sufficiently mitigate/avoid (shield changes) Edited by: JazyaVechette at: 8/29/02 6:18:39 pm

[EZ_Fysta]

Just some ideas. . .

WARRIORS JOB
Warriors should be able to tank better than anyone, period.
-Increase HP slightly- Perhaps add a 15% innate HP bonus to hp gear. At the moment we do get a little bit of a advantage from our STA hp bonus, but it really doesnt mean much, SK/Pals with good gear can get very close to warriors especially with Physical Enhancement. Sick of seeing SKs put up as a MT because they have nearly as many hps and are able to hold a solid agro.
-Add a small innate damage mitigation but do not remove Defensive. The idea that a warrior often tanks more than anyone else reguarly make it seem reasonable that they would have learned to naturaly take damage better, while still being able to work harder in dire times(when defensive is activated).

Warriors should be able to have a reasonable control of agro, not have to pray for the best gear in the game to be able to hold it.
-Give warriors a activatable ability to proc some sort of agro builder like EB, make it start at level 20-30(About same time as casters specialization) and have the amount of hate it is able to build increase with level. Not neccesarily the equivalent of EB or something that would trivialize agro, but something so that warriors who arnt in uber guilds are able to have a resonable ability to hold agro.

GROUPING VERSATILITY/STACKING
Not sure here, anything would probably be a stretch form the common notion of what a warrior is. But it is slightly disturbing that after 2-3 warriors they become useless to any end game raid, and in exp groups they have little to offer besides low dps. Personally I dont like the ideas of getting snare or some sort of skill that acts like normal spells, I'm not a hybrid, but I dont mind abilities/skills where I can focus my physical balance. But here are some thoughts.
-Okay rogues are prolly going to bitch, but it seems reasonable from a RP perspective. Immagine a warrior walking up behind a unsuspecting target and just catching it offguard and startling it. . . How about giving warriors the ability to do something like a 'devastating blow' similar to backstab in that it would require that the warrior have the target in a position not to be ready to take damage from him/her(IE the warrior cant have agro) and would do something like the damage a crippling hit(but with a minimum damage not some pathetic cripple for 20 damage would do). Or vary with how much damage it does instead of a minum.
-Make aggresive last 2 minutes and on a 3 minute timer and usable at something like level 40. The idea of making a warrior do damage near other classes like monks/rangers might be disturbing, but the negative of taking more damage when they accidnelty get agro or someone else dies or a resposte should even it out or something.
-Maybe the idea of a activatable proc that did a group buff, the battlecry idea, that would give both the casters and melees some small benefit, perhaps a small atk buff and increased damage on nukes/heals, not sure, but something to fit the line of 'rallied strength/fury,' also make it so the warrior isnt able to taunt as well(RP wise because his group members are now grabbing more agro from their increased ability and so that it gives the warrior versatility in group with mutiples or another class tanking, to give them a small desiireability but not start making them more powerful solo)

Just some ideas. Work with them how you will. Warriors definately have their role in the game, but many classes are so close to leaping over us, they often do. Marshall Saeyara (81) - Exarch Inana (92) - Temeritai (60.2 Rog)
Element of Darkness
Edited by: Fysta at: 8/30/02 12:49:37 am

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

warriors life one dimensional?

/shrug forgive me im tearless

60 rogue 31 aa

Seriously the class is fine. its only broke cause other classes are more interesting. but hell havent we rogues been dealing with that for 2 expansions? Draw a box around warriors picture them with the games content and warriors ARE FINE. They fit well with the content of the game.

The issue really isnt warriors anymore then its rogues for being bout damage were fine relative to the content of the game. BUT some classes are clearly more advantaged then rogues and warriors.

I compare rogues and warriors cause were two sides of the same coin. We are fine relative to each other and relative to the game. Just cause some classes arnt fine doesnt prove we are broken.

Why think of it that way? because if you improve Warriors tanking to make them fit better with Sks/paladins/rangers/MONKS and you break them when you only consider them versus the content of the game. The same goes for thinking bout making rogues do more damage to keep them balanced with monks/rangers/wizards. In both cases what is fair in contrast to the classes breaks them relative to the content of the game.

So my rogue brethren we suffer the same as our warrior sisters =) We both are plenty of might when put up in comparison to the game, but still in both cases other classes have nearly as much of our pie and have clear advantages. THOSE CLASSES ARE THE ISSUE. We ARE FINE!



Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 8/30/02 1:10:47 am

[EZ_Galkoratikalamp2002]

At least you will be wanted at raids. And groups. And... Galkoratikalamp Grasulerminorlalamp
Proud Warlord of The Silent Watch

[EZ_Sbik Luclin]

How about a warrior only AA ability that adds an aggro modifer to them which stacks with all other aggro mods (Horrifying Visage, etc)? Could make it one of the 3-6-9 point types that give +5%, +10%, and +15% more aggro respectively. They can obviously give aggro mods as effects since spells such as Horrifying Visage and the new Voice lines are in, so why not as an AA ability?

Oh, speaking of Horrifying Visage.... where are the warrior only non-weapon items with Effect: Horrifying Visage (worn) on them? They can add the new Voice of .. as worn effects as well for warriors on armor since there is a gradient to the hate mods on them, so you can put them on all sorts of mobs with the +aggro mod scaled to the encounter. That way, you don't have to be in a guild capable of getting Enraging Blow items to taunt decently. Putting aggro modifier spells as worn effects on armor would also allow warriors much more choice in weapons.

Oh, as for the Bodyguard suggestion... those abilities were given to the 'tank' classes in DAoC. All of the tanks got 'em, including the hybrid tanks. However, the pure tanks had a higher level of them. Anyhow, it really made tanking interesting in that game. A lot of the crowd control was done by the tank using Intercept, Guard, and Defend (I think those were the names, it's been awhile) since mezzes in DAoC had reduced duration every time you cast 'em on the same mob. I think something similar would make the warrior class a lot more interesting to play. Sbik Swashbucklugget
Lvl 60 Wallet Inspector
The Nuggets of Justice

[EZ_Fysta]

Just curious, why are so many rogues just complaining that warriors dont effect them and to get out of here? How many times have I heard rogues complain that they were frustrated warriors arnt able to hold agro off them, I dont typically have a problem with a SoD now, but before I had it... Remember both rogues and warriors are group classes, and both tend to group with each other often as they complement each other, how about ideas that you wouldnt mind a warrior being able to do that would help you out and possibly help a warrior. What would a rogue think if a warrior was able to do some ability to bolster the groups fury/strength and give the rogue a benefit.

But stop complaining about how you dont want ot hear about warriors, if you dont, then dont read the post. :P EQ is a multiplayer game, everyone effects each other and relys on each other with the exception of a few people who live quading and fear kiting, even then I see them asking for buffs from other classes. :p Marshall Saeyara (81) - Exarch Inana (92) - Temeritai (60.2 Rog)
Element of Darkness

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

"How many times have I heard rogues complain that they were frustrated warriors arnt able to hold agro off them"

thats a myth. a 60 warrior has no problem holding agro of an evading 60 rogue. if the rogue stops evading there is a problem. but if a rogue stops evading only a paladin can hold agro off them without something like a SoD.

[EZ_SilvanEQ]

Edited *after thinking about it for more than 2 seconds and re-....reading the thread.*

I do not believe that increasing taunt 10-15% will unbalance the game. As a warrior I just want to be able to have a resonable chance to keep the mob on me without the monks FD'ing and cutting our guilds dps. They increased the dps of the other melee classes so the taunt of the warrior should have been increased to keep up at the same pace.
Another comment... im a warlord and I cannot remember my offensive disc's I use them so in-frequently. Make at least one of the offensive discs a lower refresh so it actually gets used. Basically re-work all the discs with less power/lower refresh so they they are in the 10-15min range like defensive and actually get used. They dont need to be as powerful just good enough to get used and add variety. Please god dont change def, its all we have left, even though its really used less frequently then most non-warriors think.
Putting us on our own mitigation tables is the most resonable solution of any of them. Silvan
Warlord Silvana
Templar Silvani
Enchantress Amicus Primus The Rathe
E-mail Edited by: SilvanEQ at: 8/31/02 1:01:34 am

[EZ_Remf da Troll]

Problem: effective taunt reduces the difficulty or trivializes most types of fights (i.e. most existing content), as does high HP, mitigation, or to a lesser extent evasion.

Why? If you allow reliable taunt, or even just increase it from it's current level, then other classes (including both DPS melee AND DD/debuff casters) can increase their damage output correspondingly. i.e. the better the MT keeps aggro, the less everybody else has to worry about it, and the more DPS they can generate.

Increasing HP, mitigation, or evasion make fights more predictable, and therefore less difficult or challenging, since they make the MT correspondingly less likely to die each combat round due to a max damage quad + kick + bash + flurry/rampage + AE (etc.). This serves to (further) trivialize the existing content, and puts an (unsupportable?) requirement on future content to be carefully considered, clever, and well implemented. Hah.

Results:
-A buff to warrior taunt in any fashion *when a warrior is the best MT* is an indirect buff to all other damage dealing classes. Increasing warrior DPS, via skill, weapon, increased ATK, etc., increases taunt. So despite the huge existing disparity in melee dps output, increasing warrior DPS might actually increase the "problem" classes DPS (rogue/monks/knights with sick 2hs) even more.

-Changing/improving mitigation, evasion, or HP tables for warriors, or making "fixes" to the (broken) AC system retroactively trivializes existing content by making it easier. Verant wants existing content (and hypothetically new content) to be and stay just about as hard as it is now. They don't CARE if other classes can tank as well as warriors, they just don't want ANYONE to be able to tank too much better- including warriors. Monk = warrior = knight = no problem as far as they are concerned, class balance be damned.

Okay, so the two primary, obvious improvements that would blatantly improve warriors both cause serious balance issues. This means warriors are basically screwed. Here's some not-necessarily-serious but creative ideas how to re-balance things a bit and make warriors the undisputed "best" MTs without actually doing anything to improve their tanking ability...

-give all melee-centric boss mobs a 30 second to 1 minute deathtouch-type effect that can't be avoided by feign; make warriors immune to it. *grin*

-nerf other melee classes DPS down to reasonable, target levels.

-add significant weight to any item with significant HP, and remove the max reduction of ~200 AC for overweight monks.

-make knight class only endgame 2hs weapons proc jolt. Still good DPS, but can't tank with em anymore.

Some slightly more serious ideas:
-make stamina matter when getting hit, with lower stamina = significant and increasing loss of evasion skills. Make warriors have extremely good stamina regen, with other classes (monks using any weapons other than fists, knights swinging 2h swds of stupidlygoodratio, etc) having appropriately LESS sta regen. Make all sta regen spells/effects not stack with haste buffs.

-make warriors a hybrid class (can't beat em, join em) and give them all the bard songs (including the infinite channeling) that are voice based and combat and/or resistance related.

-give warriors an effective method for controlling mob positioning, with more warriors = better. Controllable small knockbacks, movement modifiers, or the holy grail, turn on mob collision checks ONLY vs warriors.

-make warriors highly or totally resistant to some proc/AE effects- like fear, blindness, knockback and melee/spell stuns.


Just some ideas.
RdT. Edited by: Remf da Troll at: 8/30/02 11:54:15 am

[DarthEnder]

Heres an idea, give warriors some low level bard songs.

You know, have them singing that battle hymm as they charge into combat.

That would certainly be different.

[EZ_GracorDR]

I'd like to see Warriors get an axp ability called "Blaze of Glory." The tank in question would dish out 2x his max hp at which point he/she would die. Give it the same refresh timer as manaburn. Gracor, 60 Warlord
Cinamben, 60 Warlock
Phank, Druzzil Ro

[EZ_Telurinon]

Quote: Battle Cry
Warrior calls out a powerful Battle Cry that encourages his comrades.

Lets all group members who are currently meleeing to Flurry on the current mob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wall of Defense
Multiple warriors in a group can set up a defensive wall and 60% of the damage will be given to each of them

Bodyguard
As long as the warrior remains in melee range of the mob, any damage that mob does to the guarded PC is halved, with the balance applied to the Bodyguard. Activate the ability with a PC targetted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weapon Specialization
Warriors will be able to specialize in a chosen weapon type.

I really like all of these ideas. I started my EQ career as a warrior, and still pull Mangore out ever now and then. These sorts of abilities would make playing a warrior a lot more fun. Specialisation, though, I can already see the whining when a new weapon that does not match the current "best" weapon comes out.
Telurinon Aelvenborne, 52nd Rake of Black IsleMangore Orcsplitter, 40th Warrior of Black IsleDewin gan'Bran, 28th Wizard of black Isle
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.

[EZ_Quiet]

I like how people are thinking of new things for warriors to do. This indeed would make warriors more intersting. Consider at the moment, a high end mob (say raid level) with 40 people at the raid. Other than the MT, all the others hit attack and then can go AFK unless the mob moves. (and yes I know many DO go AFK.) This is a sign of a broken class when there is no good reason to stay there.

The stance would be one possibility. I think location targets would beg others asking for the same. "Well if the big dumb warrior can hit the head, why can't I Uber-Ranger hit his eye with my bow. I have scientific proof that my bow is more ... yada yada yada."

Consider the other melee classes and the extras they bring:

SK - lots of various spells, and life taps.
Pali - lots of various spells, Undead crits, and healing
Rogue - Agro control and massive damage
Monk - FD agro control, pulling and massive damage
Warrior --- taunt

So warriors (and only the MT warrior) gets a button to press every time it goes up. wow. (hmm ok maybe not much more than hitting evade every time if evade worked 100%.)

There should be options and tradeoffs to allow the warrior to make decisions. At the moment, that is through /disc. Perhaps a short recharge time /disc might work. I say this because changing the other stuff would require lots more work to the combat system, so try to work within the structure we can see.

lets look at what advantages warriors have other other classes:

Armor : no advantage.
Weapons : no advantage.
Hit points : Advantage but only if you are a meat shield.

compare to an SK who has less hit points, but since he has some reliable life tap procs, doesn't need as many. This leads us to a fairly simple answer for warriors as a beginning improvement:

Warriors (all warriors) get an inate regeneration above all other classes. This regeneration gets higher the higher level the warrior is. AA skills can and will enchance this.

Of course this does not make a warrior more interesting, but will bring it on a par for exp groups and maybe even solo to other classes.

Perhaps another innate ability for warriors : automatic facing. When selected, the warrior will always face the selected target, even if the target moves.

Perhaps annother innate ability for warriors : automatic ranging. When selected, the warrior will always be at a set distance from the target.

Maybe only one of the above two can be selected at any given time.

Hmm ok - I am just brainstorming and fooling around. Consider these drift wood on the seas of my mind.

[EZ_Zalkafar]

I started playing in March of '99 and made a SK. After I got him to lvl 45 I was not having fun anymore because I could never get a group, and although I could solo, it just isn't fun.

So then I made a warrior and got him to 53, and the same thing is happening, while most groups want a warrior to tank, there's just so damn many of them out there all fighting for a spot in a group, and people really only want one warrior in a group. I don't even think about soloing with my war because 1) it's not fun and 2) I don't have money for a regen bp or other needed equip.

Now I have also made a rogue and have PLed him to lvl 40 so far and moving fast on my other account with a 56 cleric. So far I like the rogue best because if I want to group, EVERY group wants to kill stuff FAST. Also, I've been in many groups, with all of my chars, that have 2 rogues or more sometimes. They're always wanted, and my only role is doing damage, and lots of it.

[EZ_Binnamar]

Quote: Problem: effective taunt reduces the difficulty or trivializes most types of fights (i.e. most existing content), as does high HP, mitigation, or to a lesser extent evasion

There is a solution to this for exp groups anyways... Get a SK. they can gain agro in a pintch where warriors have to use a little button that pops up every 6 seconds that works ever 30-40% of the time.
Binnamar- 51 dwarven warrior
Kakash- 5 Vah Shir Beastlord
Tarrew Marr

[EZ_o0o Myka o0o]

Taunt is not only done with the Taunt button :P

I still use Disarm too when I have to taunt. Besides that a very fast weapon in primary hand will increase your taunt and you have to make funny remarks to the monsters when attacking heehee

With epics it's dmg taunt and a special taunt spell proc. With weapons better then that it's short delay and dmg taunt.

Also I would like to see the /disc precise have a faster re-use time. In big raids I use it all the time (and it lasts quite long) to do more damage if I'm not the meatshield

PS: I'm lvl 59, when I hit lvl 60 I will be using /disc aggressive Edited by: o0o Myka o0o at: 9/11/02 5:28:48 am

[EZ_Zeum]

I love the idea of warriors able to make an impenetrable wall.

If there is some sort of bonus to the MT in having extra warriors that would make sense.

Don't know of the workingsw, maybe add 2% agro and reduce 2% damage to the MT per equiivalent level warrior?

[EZ_Psycho Toaster1]

*meow*

[EZ_Skace]

I was hoping I could read every post before contributing, but there is just so much to take in that I could only get to page 3 before I wanted to spill my thoughts on this topic, so here goes.

If I were to see 1 thing fixed it would be disciplines. It would be awesome to see disciplines added in at an early level and advance per level. I'd love to see disciplines implemented the way they were in an old mud I used to play. Basically:
- There was a discipline called Standard and then a whole bunch of them similar to the ones in EQ.
- Once you switched to a discipline the change was permanent until manually changed.
- Discipline changes required skill checks so that you could fail to go evasive if you weren't skilled in that discipline.

I think this is the way disciplines should work, no question about it. The cool thing about this is that it means the warrior has to actually pay attention to their fighting stance and can actively make a difference on the fight by what style they choose to take in regards to their group makeup. It also doesn't come with its downfalls, because a lot of times in the mud people would forget they were in aggressive or berserk fighting style and when a real beefy mob was pulled they would get torn to pieces in seconds.

For this to work, disciplines would actually have to have a large affect on the actual makeup of the warrior. IE: defensive reduces hits and damage taken but causes you to only attack twice per round and at greatly reduced dps while berserk can raise your attacks per round all the way to 5 but you get hit for max every swing by the enemy since you arn't paying attention to dodging or defending at all. This would all have to be balanced and I think it could easily be balanced far better than the current system of disciplines. The 3 basic disciplines would all be relatively low level disciplines yet fundamental to the class: Defensive, Offensive, Standard. Later level disciplines include: Evasive, Aggressive, Berserk, And maybe 1 or 2 neat 50+ ones to give you that bonus for getting so high.

I also loved a lot of the skill ideas if implemented properly, but I think they would make sense across the board for all classes. One skill a lot of people mentioned was a guard skill so that the warrior could be assigned to a specific other char and either absord all or partial damage to that person. For as far back as I can remember in role playing games, this should be a paladin's skill (and no I am not a paladin but a warrior). The chivalrous paladin is the one who leaps in front of teamates to save them from possible damage. Now, I know everything in EQ is assbackwards but I think at the very least if warriors got this paladins should get it also.

If they do decide to make any decent sized changes to the warrior class, I hope it doesn't all end up in AA. That would be a real shame but I could see them doing it.

I'd love to see something done with slam/bash and kick to give some differentiation. Make kick do more damage and snare and slam do less damage but stun. I don't know, would be cool to be able to look at my slam and kick keys and have an idea of which one I want to hit depending on the situation. Or perhaps kick didn't have any snare/stun component but refreshed faster so I could kick more often and slam only when the stun was needed. I think this idea would be vetoed by all the little people who have come to enjoy a kick stun. Also, make the stun longer lasting if I have a shield. Or they could just toss these half ass skills out the window and add some really thoughtfull ones like some of the ones expressed in this thread.

[EZ_taliefer01]

rather simple solution to our dps issue on raids is to just let crit hits for warriors to do maybe double damage(or less/more if double isnt enough or too much) when attacking a mob from behind or the sides(ie, a crit for 100 would turn into a crit for 200 when behind a mob) nothing too drastic, a bit of a bump for the dps of non MT warriors, and its always fun seeing higher crits ;p

[EZ_Sister Cancan]

If you're MT, being a warrior can sometimes be mildly amusing. But imagine what raiding is like when you're not MT and you're not in a zone that demands physical CC'ing...

The problem with warriors isn't that they are so one-dimensional and boring that you can go afk in raids, like some have stated. Quite the contrary, the problem is that even though they are so simple and boring, they still can't go afk in raids, unlike some other boring classes.

Reasons:
1. You have to slam or kick repeatedly or else your guild mates will realise you're afk and get pissed off.
2. You may also have to move around a little either to:
- act as a counter weight to the monks who always push mobs into walls seemingly on purpose
- minimize your distance to the mob, just to cover your back so that you can tell the rogues that you have done everything you could when you lose aggro.

So warriors could be fixed in either of two ways. Either remove slam/kick from the game and maybe rework mob push and proximity aggro, so that warriors can do like the unwanted caster classes - go afk and watch TV but still raid and get phat lewt. Or do something creative about the class. Reduced timer on offensive discs is a given. But I also liked that idea about addind DAoC inspired special attacks. Just give them the same number of special attacks as monks and make them all useful, maybe suited to different situations, maybe chained. That will at least give them something to do in raids:
- Oooo I get to press '3' now, and then I can press '4' if I'm lucky!

Seriously, nobody can deny that warriors have been overlooked for quite some time now.
Cancan
Nun of the Tranquil SlackAntonius Bayle

[EZ_Goradain]

Personally, all I care about is holding aggro better and taking hits better. I don't care about anything else. Yes, being a Warrior is one dimensional, but thats exactly why I chose one. I do one thing - take hits.

That being said, I often do with that I could sacrifice defense for offense without having to worry about not having my defensive for an hour. I suggested this at the great Warrior Ignore Fest (class balancing questionairre) a while back. As opposed to more useless AA or Discs, give us attack stances. I could only think of three (excluding normal stance, which uses the base values), but here they are:

Offensive Stance - Make us smell really bad (just kidding). Increased damage output and Decreased defense (say a 5% ATK increase and 5% AC decrease).

Defensive Stance - Increased Defense and Decreased Offense (5% AC increase and 5% ATK decrease).

Resistant Stance - Increased Resists, Decreased Offense and Defense (5% increase to all resists, 3% decrease to both offense and defense)

You could choose any stance at any time and there is no limit on usage. If you weren't tanking the MoB you could be in Offensive stance until you had to, then swtch to Defensive stance.

Other things I would like to see added for Warriors is:

Slam AA (Pallies and SKs can bash with 2-Handed weapons now, Med and Small Warriors still cannot bash without a shield)

Stun resistance (Let's face it, it's ridiculous to be a level 60 Warrior and get stunned by 1 point of damage)

Weapons mastery (ability to push one weapon skill higher than it's cap)

Intervention (A timed ability - like bash or disarm - that gives a Warrior a chance to put himself "in harms way" for a few seconds. The Warrior must be in front of the MoB to use it. If the roll is successful, the Warrior will take all melee hits and procs for the next few seconds regardless of aggro. The Warrior basically would be pushing himself in front of whoever the MoB is aggroed on.)

Thats about all my thoughts on the subject ATM. Goradain - 55 Myrmidon of Rallos Zek
Grummbar - 11 Cleric of Brell Serillis
Proud member of Steel Thunder

[EZ_WilorBaneslayer]

Some of the PoP SK spells if they go live will either spice up the warrior's life or make them totally irrelevant. SKs are slated to get 2 spells that add to the Hate list. First they can cast a spell that moves them up the Hate list 600 points per cast. Second they will get a buff that causes the wearer to gain extra hate per hit (in some added percentage).

This means that SKs will now dictate who can get and hold Agro. With enough clerics a Warrior will start to be irrelevant in the end game - SK with buff on and casting Hate spell and getting CHeals often enough will tie the mob up far better than the Warrior with the same SK buff on. The Warrior's added HPs give you breathing room only when there are a small number of clerics about and you need that extra second between heals. The way the big bosses hit, until you get to 6k+ HPs when buffed you fall down as fast as any other tank type.

If I wanted to be a total doom and gloom sayer, I would predict that the Warrior will become less of a factor as the game goes on without any significant improvements to make them stand out once again. Since I wish to try and remain with the game, I will hold out hope that Verant isn't going to totally shaft us and we'll get some spiffy abilities... although judging from the list of possible Warrior PoP abilities I'm leaning more towards doom and gloom than being hopeful. *sigh*

Wilor Baneslayer
Warrior of Vallon Zek
Officer of Iron Tower

[EZ_ThinmanStrikes69Times]

How bout make the warrior epic proc unresistable? I was in CT the other night, and the "agro" proc was resisted 99.9% of the time. The rogue I was grouped with took as many hits as I did. Not quite an "epic" weapon at all, and considering the difficulty in getting it as compared to other classes...

As far as making the warrior more interesting to play, they gotta do something so we can solo, period. Nearly every other class can solo in VL or FG or somewhere at level 60, and its just not very interesting to sit LFG for hours on end, when theres tons of other 60 warriors around. So what does that mean? Faster regen or some other form of healing (other than the stupid 14.5 sec cast 100hp BP heals)? Do more damage or take less damage? Kicks that stun? Crits that do something, anything? Improved weapons, like a supercharged PGT (now thats a nice proc, too bad its for lowbies)? Someone mentioned Conan, how bout an instant kill shot, like chopping off a head? A disarm that works? Quests worth doing that dont take a million years to faction up for? How about a haste AA ability?

Just my thoughts for now, but I'm getting real bored with my warrior.

Thinman Strikes
Half Elf Warlord
Torv

[EZ_SilvanEQ]

Nah they prefer to make the weapons we do have more resisted. Remember that little statement about lower level spells not effecting higher level mobs?

Fleshgrinder proc used to land about 70-80% of the time on 55+ in CT. Now it lands around 20-25% of the time.

We gave up magic, I wish:

Take away defensive
Add weapon profeciency for warriors in one chosen weapon (+10% to skill cap)
Make Taunt 2x more effective
Make Piercing same cap as other 1h (250)
Add 10ac bonus at 51, 20ac at 56, 30ac bonus at 60, 50ac bonus at 65.

and as a side note:
Allow all classes who chose agnostic when they were born 3 yea