effect of the new druid Cheal and shaman Cheal on the high e [Archive]

EZ_Azeca

08-21-02, 09:47 AM

Cleric here.

i have to say i couldn't be happier.

Too many times a raid has been canceled because of lack of cleric turn out. Also, the ability for them (other classes) to do a larger heal does not put clerics in the backshelve. From a raid leader's pespective, it is always better to have the clerics heal and druids/shamen contribute in damage, assist heal, debuff, etc. When VI give other classes a cleric like Complete Heal, which puts the cleric class obsolete then you will hear the clerics whine. Having another class which can compliment our role in a raid, is much appreciated.

It gives guilds with less clerics a viable option of taking on harder mobs (mostly due to lack of healing power).

Azeca McTollen
High Priest of Tunare
The Tribunal

EZ_Pini Uldar

08-21-02, 09:52 AM

Clerics should be happy! Druids will be able to heal them better while they munch on mod rods.

And if clerics retire, we'll have to make due with the 90% paladin res that clerics also all retired because of.

- Pini

EZ_patofnaud

08-21-02, 10:01 AM

Yup. I see a lot of Clerics LFG. NOT!

In fact, once you start exping in the 55+ crowd, I have seen MORE small raid encounters scrubbed, MORE pickup groups scrubbed, MORE people sitting around on their butts waiting for a cleric, than I have EVER seen clerics log off because they can't get a group.

In big raids, clerics are keeping the MA, SA and pullers alive. Who do you think they group with the rangers/rogues/non-pulling monks with? Druids and Shammies. So in that situation clerics loose NOTHING. Your main job there is to heal me anyway. So when the shammys/druids are done healing up the non-MA/Puller groups, and have to buff, we may not have to wait as long for next pull if it didn't take almost a full manna bar for a dru/sha to top off our health.

EZ_Pini Uldar

08-21-02, 10:02 AM

I wonder if this is the beginning of them trying to get rid of CH or trying to devise an alternative?

Honestly, that's a 3k heal. It's not a complete heal. The 75% part is so that it scales as target hps go up and 3k gives it a ceiling. The ceiling is what folks care about. That's where max efficiency is.

Assuming they are trying to fit the max druid heal with this spell, they could plausibly give healers a series of CHes like this with different percents and maxes. For example, at 39 give the clerics a 90% max 1500 heal, at 49 a 90% max 2000 point heal, at 52 a 90% max 3000 point heal, at 54 a 90% max 4000 point heal, and at 56 a 90% max 5000 point heal. Maybe make an ancient spell 90% 6k heal or even more if they plan on raising max HPs with PoP.

They'd really get hell for removing complete heal in lieu of a cleric having a 90% or 5k heal though, even if it would work in game.

- Pini

EZ_Ylaine76

08-21-02, 10:02 AM

Im scared of the mid 50s guilds who have like 25 active druids Compared to the 2 druids that higher level guilds have

EZ_Rylak

08-21-02, 10:13 AM

Any real cleric, in any respectable guild would only feel relief from this. The only clerics that would be afraid of this are the gimps who do nothing other than sit in seb and farm xp, fire opals, and donal arms. None of you have seen a high-end raid. None of you know what rampage is and how nice it would be to not dedicate clerics to it. Or how many more encounters this would open up to guilds that suffer from cleric shortages during off-peak hours.

All you fear is that you might get passed over for said seb xp group if this goes live for a druid. So go back to seb, and go cry there where you don't matter, you already proved you uselessness here.

Rylak
60 cleric - Bristlebane
www.veeshansfury.org

EZ_Meddicine

08-21-02, 10:24 AM

I am a 60 cleric and I am happy... that I will never have to sit down and med untilI can stand up and cast CH when it is my turn in the rotation or Chaining the MT then sit down and med so I can do it again in a minute.

Why would anyone ever start a cleric again? No this is not a CH it is nowhere near as efficient but it is a pretty nice heal and if I can now cast a 75% Heal as a drood PLUS get SoW and the envy of all clerics INVIS, why would I subject myself to being a cleric for another day? Dont get me wrong... I love Medd and I have had some fun, but damn, if a drood/Shaman becomes nearly as good of a healer why would I keep playing this class that cant solo, and from all posts above, is clearly despised by much of the EQ populace(unless they need a rez then you are their best friend). It is so funny to read all of the posts about how people hate clerics whining because they can get a group so easily and they are spoon fed to 60 and they are spoiled because every group needs them... My first character was a Shaman I got to 52 and He and a Tank can duo exp mobs with ease and this is gonna make a shaman that much more powerful. With this spell a shaman melee combo will easily(even moreso now) duo any slowable exp mob.

I will give up my Cleric for my Shaman the day this spell goes live, with the exception of the days my Cleric is the only cleric available for a raid.

EZ_Saejorn

08-21-02, 10:36 AM

To throw out some numbers:

You have to have at least 4k hp to experience the cap on the druid heal of 2925 (4.5 to 5k hp if you want to actually have a chance of living by the time this hits to experience the cap). Still, that's a 7:1 healing to mana ratio, which is far better than anything a druid currently gets. At 3500hp, which is where my sk is with aego and no other hp buffs in xp groups, that would be a 2625hp heal on death's door, and the efficiency would drop just to 6.5:1, which again, is still way better than anything else my druid has (best now is chloroblast at 2.5:1 and is a small heal).

In real usage though, that would land on me when I still had about 5 to 600hp left, so would be roughly a 2000hp heal to the 75% cap, making it in xp use a 5:1 heal for me, which I'll still gladly take.

EZ_patofnaud

08-21-02, 10:37 AM

"why would I keep playing this class that cant solo"

Welcome to our world.

My rogue has not been able to solo for exp since about level 20. I go to HoT, there are 2 Rogues, and 4 Clerics. I go to Hate, same. If rogues had that same attitude, you would never see a 30 Rogue.

EZ_Nuttasaurus

08-21-02, 10:42 AM

I fail to understand why so many cleric's are getting their panties in a bunch over this.

1 - it's NOT live, it's test.

2 - they are NOT complete heals, it's % based and they have hard caps attached.

3 - do you not want your guild to succeed at high end encounters? why would you not want something that is beneficial?

Qatol - Oracle - Insidious Blood - Luclin

EZ_Aldarion Shard

08-21-02, 10:50 AM

the panties are in a bunch because the monopoly *may* get broken at last.

/cheer

clerics are the only remaining monopoly in EQ... its about time that ended.

EZ_seke2

08-21-02, 10:54 AM

even if it does go live, its just mudflation in effect, mostly.

think about the number of HP's a big tank had when chloroblast and Nature's Touch were originally introduced (4k-5k? maybe 6) and how how many HP's a big tank has now (6k-8k+).

all it does is scale up the power of druid/shaman healing to match the increase in player base HP that need to be healed.

EZ_Aerah TBaine

08-21-02, 10:56 AM

rogues should get mend!

EZ_EqRogue

08-21-02, 11:11 AM

Well....

We will now see the Good team on Sullon Zek able to accomplish some more stuff... should help balance out the server a little bit. The evil zerg will be whining about this im sure. As for my guild we all play 2 characters or more at a time anyhow and this will benefit us in that we can do high end mobs with even less people now...

Infact we dont even have a full time cleric /laugh

Thartt the Silent
Assassin Of Sullon Zek
Jagged Blade of Forza

EZ_Eelyen

08-21-02, 11:12 AM

Wizards should get major blasts of damage that allow them to outright kill big mobs.

Oh...wait.

EZ_Sharpie Mharkur

08-21-02, 11:17 AM

When druids and shamans get rezzes, then quit... Otherwise I don't see how with the hps of these heals this really is going to hurt the need of a cleric on a raid, and yet it may make the need of a cleric for a standard pickup group less necessary... I think it's a bad idea to call this what it isn't and use the term CH when it's intended to do only 75%... The actual hps will only go up to that number, however it is my understanding that even on a lower hp character it will only heal up to 75%... I think they've basically spooked people by using Complete Heal when describing something that isn't... If they had simply said, new massive heals for Druids/ Shamans on test, the only people that would be complaining here would be the shamans wondering why druids get 1k more for their max restoration...

EZ_Anika Crystalwind

08-21-02, 11:20 AM

As a cleric, I'm not out-right offended by this, but I am a little insulted.

I don't mind shammies and druids getting a mini-CH, but I'm horribly annoyed that they get a 2k or 3k heal and we don't. There's a huge gulf between the 4.5 second, 1000'ish point DL and a 10 second CHeal. Give us a faster casting 2.5 or 3k heal to give us a spot heal worth casting, and I'll call it even.

EZ_Nuttasaurus

08-21-02, 11:26 AM

Very fair indeed Anika.

No doubt that PoP will bring new spells, and it would be nice to see something along those lines show up.

-Qatol

EZ_CreepyPete

08-21-02, 11:32 AM

Don't forget that it's on the TEST server. Spell may go Live with a 10 min recycle or a 30 second casting time or something like that. Or it may never make it live. Who knows?

EZ_Taku645

08-21-02, 11:57 AM

Quote: The actual hps will only go up to that number, however it is my understanding that even on a lower hp character it will only heal up to 75%
I'm not sure which is the right way to interpret the situation. The original quote was:
Quote: Heals max of 2950 or 75% of the targets total hp.
The way *I* interpreted the quote was to mean the MAX it could heal for was 2950 or 75% of the total, whichever is lower. So if a player had less than 3934 max hp (75% of 3934 ~ 2950) and that player was at 25% health the druid spell would essentially be a complete heal. If they were below 25% health it wouldn't quite top off the hp bar.

Just my interpretation, could be wrong.

EZ_Senn Sei

08-21-02, 11:59 AM

Honestly, while I think that these spells are a step in the right direction, I almost wonder if they're going too far

But, they're just on test... here's my idea to make the spells better yet at the same time appease the clerics:

50% heal, with no hp cap or perhaps a 4-5k hp cap (which basically means no cap until mudflation superinflates tank hp again).

75% is a bit overkill. When a CH lands, most melee are going to be above a bubble of health anyway, which means 75% might as well be 100% ... if it was a 50% heal, there would be a more clearly defined difference between this and CH, and if they removed the cap, it would still scale with mudflation.

If they really want to keep the druid one superior to shaman, make druis 55% and shaman 45% or something

just a thought.

Also, what would a 3k heal do to druids aggro? Hope they code in some aggro limits like whatever they did for CH when it was a problem

-Senn Sei, Assassin

EZ_Yurian24

08-21-02, 12:01 PM

I want a 45% slow, and 30pt damage shield spell if druids and shamen are getting a toned down cheal. That way they are better in raids and I will actually be able to do something useful in an XP group other then cast cheal.

Yurian Stonebow
Heaven and Earth
Saryrn

EZ_Schatze

08-21-02, 12:19 PM

What you don't realize is, is that clerics sacrifice so much for CH.

Now, a class that can do it all... can really do it all now. Why did I sacrifice so much utility/damage/soloability, to be replaced by druids who sacrificed nothing.

With this change, the reason for keeping clerics a 1 trick pony is gone. Clerics should see *tons* added to them, as if this goes live, we're just another class now, no reason to be the worst solo'rs, the worst DPS, the worst utility, the worst survivability (no sow/invis/little hp)

EZ_Schatze

08-21-02, 12:23 PM

To phrase it another way, since warriors are behind the 140/120/100 numbers, how would rogues feel if backstab were given out, in a lesser form, to warriors?

Thought so.

EZ_Saejorn

08-21-02, 12:29 PM

Ahh gotcha I was thinking it would stop at 3/4 health, but what you are saying makes a lot more sense. In other words, it will give the target a max of 3/4's of their health, meaning if they had 1/4 of their health when it hits, they will be fully healed, but for a max of the 2950 or whatever if 75% of their health is more than that.

EZ_Finkle Hairypaw

08-21-02, 12:50 PM

I don't get if it's gonna be 75% of the person's full HP or 75% of the current HP. Cause if it's gonna be based on the person's current HP, think how low their HP would be when the spell is cast, and how little healing it would be if it would only heal 75% of the current damaged HP.

EZ_Iadas

08-21-02, 12:59 PM

All you clerics can go on and be pissy for all I care. You can stop rezzing and you know what, life goes on.
We aren't being handed a silver sppon with the CH version they came up with, but rather a new spell that will be awesome for guild events imo.

Like it was stated before:
A this is on TEST
B Its not ment to replace you all
C it will help the amount of raids continue if there is lack of Cleric Support

Hell, using Druids to make the CH rotation a little easier is the first thing that popped in my head.
Cleric 1 CH
X amount of sec later Druid/Shammy Starts
Cleric 2 CH

You now have a nice little buffer between CH, and the chance that you fizzle won't mean the immideate death of the MT.

EZ_Aldarion Shard

08-21-02, 01:09 PM

Quote: I will actually be able to do something useful in an XP group other then cast cheal.

this is the most important quote in this whole thread about why clerics feel so pissy about this change: some people who play clerics have stopped TRYING to be versatile, and have instead accepted the idea that you should just sit-stand-CH-sit over and over and over and over...

clerics who follow the above formula are like bards who only play mana song: theyre already bots.

clerics get UNREAL stuns, as good or better than slow in terms of damage reduction for exp grinds... excellent nukes... reverse DS... DA/DB... fear... PBAE.... etc, etc, etc.

dont be a bot. use ALL your spells. clerics who do nothing but CH in exp groups SHOULD be replaced by shamans and druids, because these are extremely stupid clerics. Edited by: Aldarion Shard at: 8/21/02 2:10:26 pm

EZ_Malark

08-21-02, 01:15 PM

Um...Us Rogues have had CH for awhile now and I have never seen clerics complain about it. In fact it is a little better than CH as it also restores mana.

If any complaining cleric would like to see me perform one please step up and expose your back.

About time this comes about. I hate it when raids are called due to lack of clerics. Now our Druids and Shamans can be put to work!

Thank you,

-Malark

EZ_snowsquawl

08-21-02, 01:17 PM

I think would be far too overpowering for Druids and Shaman. They both one of the most independant classes in the game and really don't need anything else. If they do put something like this live, it should have an immense mana cost or a long recast with associated with it. To me, this kind of spell is crossing the boundry between a utility/support class and a cleric, a class of their own.

Snowsquawl
60 Shaman
Saryrn

EZ_veenublue

08-21-02, 01:26 PM

Whateva, they should not have called it a CH. Wicked Verant.

I tire of class debates, though I see the need. Seems the squeaky wheel does get the grease, so I understand clerics in a fit now. I am a cleric.

Let us bitch, any upgrades will make you live longer and your mobs go down faster.

Dorla

08-21-02, 01:26 PM

I will be a happy cleric if this goes live. And, my guild will be a happy guild, because we will have increased our healing power and mana pools by a huge amount, and will have a better chance of defeating higher-tier mobs. Which, in turn, makes me an even happier cleric. :)

-Dorla

EZ_VaryssTheShaman

08-21-02, 01:34 PM

First of all, these spells are not complete heals. It's already been said a bunch of times but some folks don't seem to understand that so I said it again.

So pointing out what clerics give up to get complete heal is dumb, because these are not complete heals.

These spells take as much time to cast as CH, cost as much or more mana, and heal less.

In some situations these spells are as good as CH, it's true. So what? In some situations the level 1 cleric nuke is as good as ice comet (mobs with 7 hit points for example). I guess wizards should all quit because clerics have equally good nukes (something that once almost seemed to be the case). All the situations people are mentioning are situations where I have never seen CH used (since velious came out) anyway. Do *you* use CH on a 3000 hit point caster? Maybe you do, but most people don't, because clerics already have more efficient heals for that role, and generally casters either heal fine with lesser heals and regrowth, or need something that casts faster than CH anyway.

All these spells seem to do is add some efficiency to the things that shaman and druids are supposedly already supposed to handle, like backup healing, or acting as the healer in a pick up group.

Sorry, but most people are tired of every raid depending on X number of clerics (and frankly it seems to me that many clerics are too). Anything that helps bring that number to X-2 or X-3 is great in my book. Clerics are the most highly sought after class in any raiding guild (please try to dispute this...) These spells will not change that fact, only lessen the burden on clerics and on guilds that can't recruit a dozen high level clerics. Now they can get by with 5 or 10 instead of 6 or 12. Good for everyone.

EZ_Yurian24

08-21-02, 01:35 PM

/quote
clerics get UNREAL stuns, as good or better than slow in terms of damage reduction for exp grinds... excellent nukes... reverse DS... DA/DB... fear... PBAE.... etc, etc, etc.
/quote

1) nukes - you have GOT to be kidding me when you say a cleric has excellent nukes. The mana ratio on those things is worthless. In any serious group xping somewhere other then seb its a waste of mana and downtime for my group to be casting this (Judgement).

2) PBAE - we have 2 that are useful (Upheaval and Sacred Word), and thats in those few minor situations where you have multipal enemies with no chanter or in an AE group.

3) CC (Crowd control) Ya we can manage some minor CC with PE, but this is always better left to a mezer or a wizard with fetter.

4) Fear - WTF are you doing XP if fear is a valid option?????????????????????

5) DA/DB - lifesavers sure. But ummm besides pulling for an AE group these are not something you should ever have to use in an XP group.

6) MoR / MoK - Yep great spells (least MoK used to be befor it was nerfed all to @#%$) I apply these to each mob when xping.

7) Stuns - great for those zones where the mobs are not imune to the "stun" portion of the spell. However in order to keep something perma stunned or somewhere close to it you need to load up 3 of them which is a lot of spell slots to use up.

I know my class, I have played it for 3 years. My point is that most of these options you suggest are VERY VERY situational. With this new "lesser" Cheal on a druid or shaman why would you bother to take a cleric on an XP outing instead of a shaman with SLOW/Topor/Lesser CH/ Dots or a druid with Evacs/Lesser CH/Snare/DoTs/DECENT nukes. All it leaves us with is RES, which shouldnt be needed in an XP camp anyways.

Then again I really shouldnt complain since clerics have been in less and less of a demand while xping since Lucin came out. Good thing most of us have a 2boxed alt.

Yurian

EZ_Eldryc

08-21-02, 01:42 PM

you know, every single time there's been a healing upgrade for druids and shaman (there've been a couple in the past already), the druids in particular have said, "it's about time! We've needed this upgrade for years!" Well, you already got heal upgrades. Repeatedly. Now there's a version of CH on test for them and we get the same thing from them again, "it's about time! we've needed.....". stfu already, that's getting old. And saying that this change would have little effect on clerics is either willful ignorance or just being deliberately untruthful. It would be an enormous impact on clerics. About the only thing they would have left is rezing. Camp your cleric at the zone if you're got one and join the group with a druid/shaman. If you're in a fairly populated area, it's not that hard to find a rez anyway in the unlikely event that you die in an exp group. Whyever would someone start a new cleric if this change goes live? Talk about stupid... unless you need a rez b**ch there would be no point. And by the way, shamans in particular are already a very powerful and desired group class, not to mention great soloers. Druids are okay in groups and great soloers. Clerics are good in groups and all but worthless for soloing. So another upgrade for shamans and druids? Wow, thanks Verant for once again proving your incompetence.

If this goes live, expect a lot more clerics to retire. I won't blame them at all.

-- Callon

EZ_Peon25

08-21-02, 01:43 PM

I'm unhappy about the new CH.
Out best heal outside of CH is our Divine Light, 950ish hitpoints. Now Shammies get a 2k heal and Druids get a 3k heal. Cool...

Can I have Regen, like both classes have? What about some form of self SoW? Invis please? No? I didn't think so.

I won't start with teleports, slows, canning ability, or anything else.

I like what one poster said, "what if warriors got a form of backstab?" Would Rogues be happy then? Maybe.. but they'd feel as if they were starting to be replaced.

Clerics are good only for their CH, and their time-saving Blessing of Aegolism. If you really want buffs, go with PotG from Druids, mixed with BoF and Marzin from Clerics. Then throw in your Shaman buffs. Aside from the bonus hitpoints from our Symbols (assuming AC is completely worthless in the high end game), all we are is a CH bitch. Thanks!

EZ_Eldryc

08-21-02, 01:48 PM

"In some situations these spells are as good as CH, it's true. So what? In
some situations the level 1 cleric nuke is as good as ice comet (mobs with 7
hit points for example). I guess wizards should all quit because clerics have
equally good nukes "

this argument makes absolutely no sense. These spells are as good as CH or close enough to as to not matter in MANY situations. In almost any exp group for instance, it will be fine. Almost any cleric will tell you that most of their CH's are only for 3k to 3500 or so hit points. Uber guild raid buffed tanks with 7k+ hit points taking on some boss mob are a totally different and relatively uncommon situation. Your argument is like saying that if A is just as good as B in 80 percent of situations and C is just as good as D in one one hundredth of a percent of situations, then those two comparisons are equal. lol... get a clue.

EZ_Jait

08-21-02, 01:56 PM

Good quit less lag for us. Any real level 60 player knows a 2750 HP heal means @#%$ in high end raids, if you dont you're either a newb or dont have a clue.

This is a fantastic change, which means along with the other caster upgrades they will be re-tuning mobs soon especially if PoP means more levels.

In any event, quit the whining, you just look stupid and ignorant by saying you think clerics will quit over a 2750 hp heal that costs as much as CH.

2750 hp is 2 bubs in the real high end game

EZ_Brazzlethorpe

08-21-02, 01:58 PM

Speaking as a member of a guild who lacks a large number of clerics but has druids and shaman aplenty, couldn't be more thrilled.

However this whole "If they get THIS then I want THAT" garbage is ludicrous. Someone else getting a spell that helps out your guild as a whole should be something you CELEBRATE. Waaah you're not special anymore. Welcome to it, the other twleve classes in EQ have been here forever.

BTW, Bards are gonna get a substantial mezz song supposedly and this is one enchanter who couldn't be more thrilled. Just because someone else gets a new toy, doesn't mean your toys no longer work. Grow up.

EZ_Sharpie Mharkur

08-21-02, 01:58 PM

Next time you're in Seb, tell me how many clerics aren't grouped and how many corpses at the zone are happy they the only available healer was a druid... After the patch, ask one of the naked people nervous about the 30 min left on their corpse how much they like the new heals too while you're at it...

I won't go to Disco or some other tight difficult to escape spot without a cleric, not because I have to worry about healing, it's because I want to be able to log that night with + exp regardless of the ranger that forgot to snare or the melee that assisted the wrong tank... That and last time I checked I'd rather get celestial than chloroblast, and I'd rather have a 25 min CR and rezzes than have my group break up at the zone because the tank who got missed in the evac logged since there was no rezzer... The cleric's home is safe at least in any group I'll want to join, and I don't think 75% in 10 seconds is really going to be as much an impact on a raid unless a mob was up and one cleric wasn't online... I don't think any cleric able to kill a mob he wanted when he could because of this new spell instead of having to wait for his buddy cleric to sober up at home is going to be complaining...

EZ_Yurian24

08-21-02, 02:07 PM

I think someone misunderstood me. I didn't say I don't want them to get it. I said that in return for making them more viable healers in both raid and XP settings (and yes I do believe having multipal people casting 2000-3000hp heals would make a difference on a raid) that clerics should get some more utility then they currently have.

Jait - I have raided everything thats considdered High End in EQ and can always see a use for an extra 2000-3000 hp heal somewhere, if you can't then your the one without a clue. Edited by: Yurian24 at: 8/21/02 3:11:31 pm

EZ_Iadas

08-21-02, 02:21 PM

Quote: Now there's a version of CH on test for them and we get the same thing from them again, "it's about time! we've needed.....". stfu already, that's getting old.

And with every upgrade we get, we also get class X coming back bitching about us too.

Did someone come to your house and piss in your cereal or something? you need to chill out. This is a good change. Edited by: Iadas at: 8/21/02 3:22:15 pm

EZ_Hegwin Downfall

08-21-02, 02:30 PM

The problem guys, isn't about raids.

It's about grinds. Can you tell me one decent reason why you would still want a cleric over a druid in say, a standard upper Seb grind?

Standard group that I, as a cleric, am in is a 57tank and 4 others - for sake of this argument, it doesn't matter who else.

57 tank buffs to around 5k hitpoints. A standard CH will heal on average 3k hitpoints (standard operating procedure is to cast at 2 bubs health). Assuming single mob pulls and decent taunting, the main tank is the ONLY toon that gets healed.

Sorry guys, but give a druid a 3k heal for 400 mana, and for all grind situations that exist, a druid will become the preferred class.

The problem is, clerics are not a solo class...we need a group to survive. Verant giving away the one spell that we have that guarantees our ability to group effectively obsoletes us to other classes that can do so much more.

Have you ever seen a cleric solo?

I didn't think so.

If Verant wants to give away CH, fine. Then give clerics the ability to effectively solo, quad, and sow.

Or even easier, let us just change our class...

EZ_Aldarion Shard

08-21-02, 02:37 PM

Quote: Can you tell me one decent reason why you would still want a cleric over a druid in say, a standard upper Seb grind?

1. 4k CH vs. 2k "semi-CH"... clerics who blow their CH at 2 bubs deserve to be replaced, warriors EXIST for those half-a-bubble CH's that top 4k.

2. stuns. yes, you ahve to keep several memmed. welcome to the same situation as EVERY OTHER CLASS WHO HAS STUNS!

3. better buffs, hands down, by far.

4. Rez. if this was the only reason, it would be enough to ensure that a cleric will ALWAYS be greater than a shaman/druid.

... i could go on and on, but tryin to reason with clerics about class balance is like tryin to reason with monks about the same subject.

EZ_Moffon Furryhealer

08-21-02, 02:54 PM

I'm a lvl 60 cleric in an uber guild. This spell is awesome for raiding, I can't tell you how many times druid heals have saved a slow CH. This spell makes it so they don't cut nearly as close.

I'm a lvl 60 cleric who has very few AA points. I gotta tell you, finding a decent xp group is a bitch. FG is crowded with primal melees with funghis who solo. Velks has a few soloers, and with a slower a group doesn't need a cleric. A shaman with Torpor can slow mobs so that healing is a breeze. He gets neato buffs, he gets good dps dots. Druids get ok dots, neato nukes, good heals, damage shields, regen, sow, etc. Even get potg for a little extra mana regen for the group. Christ, a good melee with a funghi can duo with an enc easily. Maybe it's because I play on Rallos Zek and it's not really overcrowded, but I have a hell of a time finding a group. This spell probably won't change much, because it's not out yet and I already have a hard time finding a group.

Clerics are some of the most needed classes on a raid, this lessens the ammount needed a tiny bit. It's a needed spell. But, what I'd like to see is VI throw clerics a bone next. Our nukes have a long recast time making it so I need to load 2 at once just to keep up with casting (and the damage is far inferior). Druids can dot and then nuke for more than me, they get much more damage. Shaman get the best dots in the game, I can't go near that damage. XP these days is all about how many mobs you can kill a minute. Do I really add much to that number? No, not really. I don't mind that they improve healing on classes that do good damage already, I want them to improve damage on classes that can heal good.

Moffon

EZ_Kalledar

08-21-02, 03:35 PM

Can you tell me one decent reason why you would still want a cleric over a druid in say, a standard upper Seb grind?

I can't see a reason to bring a cleric now. Sebilis is ridiculously easy. I also can't see a reason to bring a SK or Paladin there. Maybe you should use Cazic as an example instead of Sebilis. I'd still want a cleric in Cazic at least for buffs, and the faster cast heals. 10 seconds is a long time for a 2k heal (I'm a shaman).

EZ_snowsquawl

08-21-02, 03:52 PM

"I won't go to Disco or some other tight difficult to escape spot without a cleric" -- quote

As a shaman, the disco is soloable... Necro's and Shaman can do pretty much anything they want to in just about any xp zone on their own. Why step out and make a shaman any more superior to any other class

In my opinion, Complete heal is what makes the cleric unique. Handing out lesser forms of it to classes that have their own unique abilities is another step in the simplification of EQ.

The biggest improvement they could make to any class in the game is make make a cleric more dynamic and more self sufficient.

EZ_Aldarion Shard

08-21-02, 04:00 PM

99% of the problem stems from clerics who suck at being clerics in exp groups.

you know, the ones who heal the war when hes t 2 bubs of life.

you know, the ones who melee when theyre fm instead of nuking and medding it back.

you know, the ones who dont mem stuns because they have long refresh times and instead keep buffs and gate memmed.

you know, the ones who wont cast symbol because it costs money, and yet insist on getting all gems anyway.

you know, the ones who get agroed and spam their "ack get it off me!!!1!" instead of rooting it or DAing to shift its agro.

clerics who know how to play a cleric efficiently will only be helped by this change. they were never CH-bots to begin with, they used their whole arsenal of spells.

and cleric bots? sorry no sympathy.

EZ_Alliey Mistwalker

08-21-02, 04:01 PM

To any cleric who thinks this Cheal (druid/shammy style) will lessen the game is sorely mistaken.

This helps smaller guilds that lack clerics but have shaman and druids be able to go after mobs that where out of reach prior to this.

Also, this heal is NOT a real Cheal, 2950 hps in high end (as said before) is like 2 bubs of life. Against a mob hitting for 1k dam per round, our heal will not cut it.

I think clerics should be happy that now some of the healing can be distributed around a bit and when they are close to OOM, the druids/shammy's can jump in and help.

Just my 2cp

Alliey, Hierophant <Revolution>
Melodymaker, 52nd Minstrel <Revolution>
The Tribunal

EZ_Rifkind

08-21-02, 04:01 PM

Speaking as a druid from a rather large guild that has a rather small cleric turnout on any given night....

THIS ROCKS !

More times than not, I am already the main healer for the tank that has the lowest buffed hitpoints. And I do a damn good job (thanks to bestest teacher ever - Azeca /hugs). This is HUGE for our guild personally. If this goes live there will be so many encounters that we will actually have a shot at, instead of having to call it due to lack of clerics.

/crosses her fingers that this goes live.

Rifkind Britemoon
<Revolution>
The Tribunal

EZ_Peon25

08-21-02, 04:17 PM

Seriously though, good job for your hordes of Druids and Shamen that get Cleric capabilities in your low 50's guild.

But also remember, Clerics **need** a group. I can solo, yeah, but it's a bitch, and I spend 40-75% of my mana, per mob, to do it. Druids can quad kite with ease, I've seen a Druid doing 5 Wyverns in CS... Shaman have 0 downtime due to slows/torpor/melee/Canning/pet, so they can go again and again and again.

Druids and Shaman both get alot of utilities Clerics do not.

We get DA, whoopee, 15 second invulnerability while not being able to cast spells.. 90% of the time when I DA to get out of a situation, I die immediately when DA wears off.

I get my invisibility through items. I get my SoW through horse/potion/Jboots/Run3.

I have a reverse Damage Shield, which is useless in alot of situations due to resists, etc.

Where's my Regen? Oh yeah, 24 second Regen, oh boy!

Can I snare? Haha, not if I'm not a Dark Elf with the Innoruuk amulet.

I can stun, yes, which is good every 8 seconds or so, and lasts for 2 seconds, and has a heavy resist rating and does crap for damage. Useful for breaking a gate maybe 1/5th of the time.

I can ress, and even better with the EverCamp epic which is a bane to do on EVERY server. Oh by the way, Necros and Paladins get a 93 and 90 percent ress, which is just as good most of the time as our 96% ress.

I can AoE, but it's around my self only.. not good in the way most AoE damage spells are good for.

Healing was the one thing we held tightly, the one thing we were known for. In high end situations, we're still needed for the bot-like CH line. Yeah, you're going to need 15 Druids on 2 second delays to make a non-Cleric CH line. A SoW or Invis like spell.. would it be too much to ask? IVU is crap; how many undead did you remember in Velious? Like 2 zones worth.

/rant off

EZ_Kalledar

08-21-02, 04:56 PM

I have a reverse Damage Shield, which is useless in alot of situations due to resists, etc.

I'm tired of this excuse. Resists were changed a LONG time ago. There are very few high end encounters that are immune to magic based spells. Lord Vyemm, Tunare and I hear Emperor (I've never fought him) are magic immune, very few if any others are. Anything you can cripple or slow, you can MoR. You can land MoR on every mob in ToV except glimmers and Vyemm (not sure on Gozz/Telk). You can MoR Vindicator, Tormax, Statue, even the Avatar of War.

EZ_snowsquawl

08-21-02, 05:03 PM

Lately what has been changed to shaman and druid...

DoT penatly for unrooted, mobile mobs removed.
Chloroblast and other blast type healing spells now heal more.
Speculation of a new, improved healing spell for Druids and Shaman.

What has changed lately for a cleric...

Nothing...

Shaman and Druids don't need anything. Nothing.

EZ_Peon25

08-21-02, 05:03 PM

Yes, but am I going to sit there casting it 5 or 6 times to get it to stick?

And you dodged my other points. =)

EZ_Rekna

08-21-02, 05:20 PM

has anyone thought that maybe the 75% cap is different than you are looking at? The way i am interpreting it is it will heal the person to at max of 75% of their life. Meaning if a player has 4k hps and is at 2999 hps and gets druid/shaman CH they will get healed for 1 hp since 3k is 75% of 4k. If this is the way the spell is going to work i dont see it really taking away from clerics at all.

Also for all of you clerics that are bitching about not having a 3k heal what if they gave you this exact same spell? 10 second casting time, 400 mana, 75% CH.

It would be obsolete by CH and you wouldnt cast it. So stop bitching about this spell.

EZ_Cily

08-21-02, 05:30 PM

This change is PART of caster balancing.

It is not the END of it.

How can they add to a clerics usefulness before first lessening thier current burden?

I can think of some really great things they can add to the cleric class in the future, but right now it is futile. why? Because no matter how cool these additions were... clerics would still be required only for thier CH ability.

Spare you flames for when this is done.

Hell... when rogues were first being redone tons of rogues were complaining about "bones being thrown at us", now look at us. Try to think big picture, not self centered.

And if you think druids have it so great, go strolling through some uber guild web pages and see what it takes as a druid to join. Then check the requirements for clerics.

Cily

EZ_Nafai Nyef

08-21-02, 05:32 PM

First thing, it's great that the healing monopoly is being broken. It's about time that another class could be the main healer for a serious group and secondary healing classes could contribute on raids besides malo/slow/ro's sundering. However, clerics need to be totally revamped now. Here's a comparison.

Druids
-----
Snare
Good nukes
Respectable AE
Invis
SoW/SoE
Ports
a pretty good heal
Tracking
Good buffs
Damage shields
Root

Cleric
----
Excellent heals
Rezzes
Good buffs
Root
Divine aura/Divine barrier
Invis to undead

Druids can solo well. Clerics solo about as well enchanters without charm.

Now tell me, what compelling reason is there to play a cleric? Before, nobody could touch their raiding power. Now druids are a close second. They used to be the only viable healing source in groups. These days, shamans can be as good or better than a cleric if nobody days, even if they don't get their CH wannabe spell.

Why would anyone give up their ability to function effectively outside a group for a 25% better CH and rezzes? If you're rich enough, in a good enough guild, or have enough friends, you've already got rezzes on demand. Both druids and shamans have a lot to offer already, and by giving them what's almost equal to clerics' defining ability, there's just not going to be much desire to play a cleric anymore. If I was a cleric, I'd be pissed off beyond all belief.

EZ_Yurian24

08-21-02, 05:33 PM

"you know, the ones who heal the war when hes t 2 bubs of life."

This depends on the rate of damage the tank is taking... which totally depends on the tank and the zone. There are zones (ssra, CT, a few more) where depending on the tank you might have to start a cheal at half... hell against elites in SSRA you sometimes have to start at 60+.

"you know, the ones who melee when theyre fm instead of nuking and medding it back."

Should never be done... unless your using a ToT mace and nuking that mana away as well.

"you know, the ones who dont mem stuns because they have long refresh times and instead keep buffs and gate memmed."

hmmm, DL-CH-CE-MoR-MoK-Judge-DA(jic)-leaves room for one whole stun which unless your using it to stop a gate is pretty go**am useless.

"you know, the ones who wont cast symbol because it costs money, and yet insist on getting all gems anyway."

WTF wants a symbol ... Aego ... (ok ok druids and maybe a caster if theres POTG to be had)

"you know, the ones who get agroed and spam their "ack get it off me!!!1!" instead of rooting it or DAing to shift its agro."

Im still looking for a place to throw root in or even DA if im supposed to have at least 2 stuns memed... you have a different UI from me or something? Not that this matters... I have 4900+ hps buffed... I normally just tank this stuff.

"clerics who know how to play a cleric efficiently will only be helped by this change. they were never CH-bots to begin with, they used their whole arsenal of spells.and cleric bots? sorry no sympathy. "

Ive never had sympathy for bots either. Im not saying that the change shouldnt happen. Im just looking for a little more utility for my (and presumably your) class if they are going to keep upgrading the other healing classes who already have a lot of that utility.

Yurian

EZ_TotteSwede

08-21-02, 07:09 PM

From a hiend raid perspective this change would of course be of great benefit. Reasons for it has been posted above, so not gonna repeat them. Personally I would love it.

From a "fairness" perspective I would say it sucks though.
Cleric in an exp group ? No way if we are going an easy place like Seb or similar (not that I go there much anymore, but still :P). The cleric rarely has to heal as is, so might as well bring a druid who can dish out some damage and have other tools available to him and pump in that 3k- heal when needed.

Cleric in a hard place ? Sure, that won´t change of course. Deep CT you say ? Of course a cleric is needed then, but what can that cleric do ? Most mobs are 55+ so stuns are useless, forget root parking since mobs are highly MR and get pissed off easily, etc etc. It all comes down to the Cheal/Elixir/Dl/Remedy parts again. Versatility you said ? Not really....
Honestly in such a group I´d probably try for Dru/Shm to replace the Cleric, if it wasn´t for the rez safety they bring.

There are as many opinions about this as there are players I bet, and we still don´t know how/when/if these spells will make it live.
Still I must say that from an exp-group perspective, which is already tuned towards *not* having a cleric (just exp leechers until you need that rez), this would be another blow to the class we all want people to play, but would never even consider playing ourselves....

-Fubbik-
Ass of Vaz
P.S. Anikas suggestion about a bigger spotheal for clerics is reasonable, and while we are at it give rogues some useful AA skills :P

EZ_Samthin

08-21-02, 07:10 PM

Dont even know what to say...hrmm maybe if we start petitioning for Mana burn and the like we can get it to.

2 things Id like to say however. Maybe in PoP tanks will get 10k hps /shrug then Cheal is still Cheal doubt it tho. 2) Most clerics enjoy being the rampage healer it keeps us on our toes, well druids/shamans will be taking that job and leaving us with the only one we all complain about the stupid f*cking rotation.

~Kindain
60 High Priest
Clan Ta Veren
Terris-Thule Edited by: Samthin at: 8/21/02 8:35:55 pm

EZ_Peon25

08-21-02, 07:32 PM

Hey, all I ever wanted was to be like a DND Cleric.. be able to melee, maybe dual wield... it could happen!

EZ_Medikus

08-21-02, 07:33 PM

Well... i feel really sad.
Aye, i´m a CLR, and if this new spell for druids n shamans go live... i´ll quit too.
I´m sure that a lot of ppl who posted here dont know whts being a CLR. You talked too about sebilis... Well, on my server its freaking difficult for a ClR to get a group lately... last month im seeing around 2 to 5 clrs at SS LFG all day... and sadly... after waiting for a long time ...logging on an alt, just to play a few.
thats not a complaint , its a simple reflexion of what clerics "are" at 50+.
¿Why?, because CLRs can´t do nothing else. CLRs need a group to growth.CLRs need a group allways. I would LOVE to go to Maidens or CS and hunt there for days exping as mad, but ¡ey! i´m a CLR, i can heal, i can buff, i can stunt... whatever. but Verant don´t want us to be good on nothing else. and... of course!, they don´t want us to solo, a CLR is supposed to be the class that keeps others alive. aye, "supposed".
¿Whats a cleric indeed?: a healer.
¿Whats makes a CLR special over other classes? Cheal and rezzes, nothing else. Dont be mistaken.
And to tell u the truth i will be happy whith alot of guilds, because they can replace easily a CLR on a raid using several Druids on a "Waheteverthenewspellfordruidswillbecalled rotation".
Oh! ¿what do u say?, ¿not enough healing power?, kk, add more druids to the rotation or make the shamans cover too the tank. lol
But as i told at the beggining of this post... i´ll feel very sad, because im sure i´ll quit , and after all, my little cleric its something like an "alter ego" to me, not just a healing machine. ¿why bother?, i´ll better make a druid or a shamy, more efficient for my guild, and also more independent.
I made a CLR cause i love to help others, cause i´m a social person and all that will be lost just for a spell...(sigh)
¿May i stay playing just to rezz others?. Wow, thats noble, but... boring. Id better camp the cleric at the same zone if someone needs a rezz.
Be serious! CLRs are the same as when kunark came out. No significant changes made (well... some nerfs, aye).

I invite u all to play a cleric. When u´ve played that class for 2 or 3 years, come back to this thread and post your toughts.

(shrug)

I also want to apologize for my english, i dont usually post on this board...and im trying to do my best.

EZ_Kalledar

08-21-02, 08:02 PM

Yes, but am I going to sit there casting it 5 or 6 times to get it to stick?

And you dodged my other points. =)

I cast cripple over and over until it lands. I cast slow over and over til it lands. Yes I know clerics have to heal, I'm not suggesting you MoR over and over while people die. There is time for clerics to do non healing stuff on most mobs, however.

I did not dodge your other points. I just pointed out your wrong on one. I'm not saying your other points are wrong.

EZ_Firamas

08-21-02, 08:17 PM

You might be interested to know that there's a few new cleric spells on test as well..

1. Upgrade to DL (does 1600).

2. Group CE (VERY nice spell, something that's been asked for by druids for a long time in fact... and guess which class got it?).

3. Yaulp5, 10/tick mana regen, 50atk 75dex 25% haste. Not really an "omfg" spell, but might go well with your new..

4. Summoned hammer. No idea what this does. Most likely will have a decent proc that makes it worth using. Will have to wait until it goes live to see, I wouldn't even speculate further yet.

EZ_Aldarion Shard

08-21-02, 08:33 PM

i find it amusing that the class with the best stuns in the game complains about the features that all stun spells share.

Yurian, you present a good rational approach to spell lineups. what i want to point out is that just as my enchanter un mems all mezs in some areas, all stuns in some, etc... clerics sometimes need to adapt as well.

and thats what infuriates me about badly played clerics. here is a class with an *astounding* variety of useful combat spells, and yet they so often reduce themselves to bots.

as an example, i would suggest that in sebilis, MoR and MoK need not be memmed, sinc by replacing them with stuns, mobs could go an entire fight without inflicting a single point of damage. this is the kind of adaptation im talking about.

EZ_Syphet

08-21-02, 09:21 PM

And the first time Sound of Force gets resisted, because if a mob resists either the stun or the DD portion it resists it all, you get your ass handed to you from stunning the thing for 30 seconds. I have a cleric alt, not my main so I don't pretend to be all-knowing, but chain-stunning got me very dead the only times I tried it way back when.

EZ_Hyss

08-21-02, 10:26 PM

Regardless of whether this goes live or not, clerics need some way to make things die faster. I'm a 60 monk that can exp very well 'solo' in FG, Maidens, Akheva, Chardok, Seb, HS, Velks, SS, etc. etc. using my 52 druid 'bot for buffs and heals. I see in /gu a friend LFG. Melee's, mages or wizards I can add no problem... I now share exp, but they bring DPS that lets things die faster. Druids/Shamans... np, they let me log the annoying 'bot, they can easily handle the heals and they bring DPS (hastes, DOT's, DS, nukes) to the party. Enchanters have haste to add to DPS and through charms/nukes/slows/mez either add safety, allow bigger targets or add more DPS.

Clerics? In a less challenging zone (FG, Maiden's, etc.) clerics are just a drain on experience. Clerics add very little DPS with nukes and MoR... by DESIGN cleric's 'value' is in enabling encounters where their level of healing is required. Unfortunately in today's EQ deep Chardok, Ssra and CT are about the only places where they can fulfill this roll. There is a gapping hole of content between the many places a group of 60s can easily exp (needing only light heals) and raid content. VI needs to either flesh out this high end single group content or give clerics something to do in the less challenging zones.

Ideally VI will do both. Hopefully PoP will add several more zones along the lines of CT (with loot/exp that makes people actually want to see it). But even if this is done, VI needs to do SOMETHING for the cleric class so they can contribute to groups that aren't 'living on the edge'.

Hyss

EZ_Melodie Songbird

08-21-02, 10:37 PM

On test currently druids have a new heal spell
400 mana 10 second cast 100 ft range
Level 54 spell
Heals max of 2950 or 75% of the targets total hp.

Hummmmmmm
Focus Item (Improved Healing +20% healing).... Now up to 90%
which it now heals max of 3392.5

AA Imrpoved healing +15% healing... So now that or 75% just went up to 105% of a tanks total life 100% of the time!!!! Which is a Grand total of!! Drum roll!
----3901---- hp per heal!

Lets hope that the focus and AA's don't effect these. What about Crit heals too?

The way that reads to me is that it heals 75% of the tanks total hp with a max of 2950. So if your tanks has 3687 hp it will get the full 2950. Now if we take into account that the tanks has somewhere between 3600 and 3900 hp with focus and aa's you just got yourself a comp heal Yes thats with the tank at 1 hp.

Your druid wants to heal at 2bubbles? Thats cool. Your tank can have 6500 hp, get a heal at 2 bubbles (2600hp) with focus and aa's and heal a total of 3901 or back to full ...... not counting a Crit here

Yea I know all you XP grinding tanks in seb have 6500+ hp so this will make the druid heal just under a comp!... totally worthless right!! yea.. ok

Cleric LFG.... I can.... Comp just like my druid friend over here I can also DA and give you 6 point regin on your Main hand weapon only! Please ignore the druid doing 15 a tick regin with Regrowth.. If they want to stack natureskin add 8 to that a tick. Well what about PoTG? 6hp a tick mana anyone?

If I get in trouble I can gate! Just ignore the druid who has aa group egress at a click (he was able to do that because of the awsome soloability, which a cleric doesn't have).

Be honest with yourself... Cleric LFG in xp zones like seb. Hey, why not just take the druid? They can port, snare, dot, Heal, buff, DD, regin, Mana Regin, Debuff, DS, outside they can stun too! Clerics can Buff, heal, give minor regin through MOK (By the way this is a 56 spell and they are getting this heal at 54). What are clerics gonna do that arn't 60 with aego?

The good of this now though... All your zones will have all the clerics sitting at the entrances LFG so you will be able to get resses easy.

So is this a comp heal type or just a new heal? Is it coded as a Comp heal or are druids gonna get to heal for almost 4K a pop?

EZ_Kilrothtribunal

08-21-02, 10:37 PM

Clerics are perhaps the most boreing as hell class in the game to play, the reward? Compleat heal at 44 and the ability to heal better than ANYTHING else, and they get groups when they need them because of it. Of course clerics will be pissed if druids ans=d shamen (much funner classes) get such a huge heal... the usefullness for clerics will drop. Its plain stupid to give druids and shamen heals like this. Your telling me there gona give the 2nd best nuke class in the game the 2nd best heals in the game? Stupid... and well, shamies are already way overpowered, give them the ability to comp heal their pets and it gets worse... level 60 shamen can already solo things that it takes groups of other charictors to do.

Im shur some idiot will flame me but this is my opinion. Can you honestly say you really think druids and shamies should get this kind of healing power? Of course every druid and shamen will say yes, and every cleric say no. but if this goes live it will kill the only real bonus that the most boreing class gets when they make it to high level.

EZ_Legynd Arydoc

08-21-02, 10:57 PM

I play a 60 cleric main. I think the change is a good one. Any xp group should be able to go into any xp dungeon (even hard ones) with *1* healer type (clr/dru/shm) and be ok. This spell will help make that a reality, while also helping provide druids with better roles on raids.

The problem? As others have stated, clerics need a hefty damage increase to make them desirable in groups. From the new spells on test, it looks like they may be considering giving clerics decent melee abilities, with an eye towards "Summon your hammer, cast a pet, yaulp, mok/mor the mob, porcupine it to death". I don't see this as being very effective unless clerics are really given good melee skills (on cleric boards, 50% as good as a paladin has been suggested).

It's an unexpected and interesting idea, anyway. I'm not going to bitch, moan, whine or flame until I see the finished product. VI is obviously aware that clerics judgment/mor damage is subpar. Building "battle clerics" is a neat idea, imo, so we'll see where VI takes this thread...

I am all for the breaking of the cleric monopoly. I think this is wonderful. Just give us some way to deal some decent damage as well as solo effectively, and we'll all go home happy.

Legynd / High Priest / Magister

EZ_snowsquawl

08-21-02, 11:23 PM

"as an example, i would suggest that in sebilis, MoR and MoK need not be memmed" -- quote

Sure, good example... I don't see many clerics getting groups in Sebilis anymore though. Chain stun for 30 seconds? Sure, just let me med up for 3 mins so i can do that heal if its ever needed.

I am a 60 shaman with no other alts, and i don't like the idea of getting a better heal. Torpor combined with slow already puts us at the top of the ladder... Why push us even higher?

EZ_arsnocturna

08-22-02, 12:07 AM

I hear the argument with critical heals and all those AA skills. You realize those AA skills are pretty useless right? The percent increase heal from them are not consistent in one place. The frequency of getting critical heals are very very very poor, maybe 1 in a hundred heals. If you play a cleric who maxxed all the archetype healing AA's, you'd know those points do not give you more reliable or efficient performance. They're more of a novelty than functional addition.

This is up to 75% of the target max HP, doesn't matter if it's a 50 hp newbie or a 5000 hp warrior tank - 75 percent in both cases.

I would be worried if I were you about PoP. This is a sign that VI doesn't think clerics will be able to keep up with healing in the new expansion. No matter how much HP you heal, you can only heal 1 tank at a time.

EZ_Woland Grauensturm

08-22-02, 12:19 AM

In case anyone missed it, clerics are getting several new spells on test, including upgrade to divine light, and a new hammer summoning + yaulp that *may* be something very interesting (maybe a high DD proc or whatever that allows clerics to dish out some damage (less than paladin of course but still).

EZ_Baurhm

08-22-02, 01:03 AM

I think clerics get good damage based spells....they are the weakest of the 3 priests in damage dealt but the greatests as far as damage healed....I really don't feel they need a damage increase....this comes from a guy who plays a 60 druid and 59 cleric.....

Although something I think it would be cool for clerics to get are a larger line of the divine intervention spells....

as well, buffs along the line that imbue procs of like heal and lesser heals to melees weapons.

If your going to argue for more for clerics I would argue more along the line of healing not damage as well as new and different ways of healing or even buffing.

I would consider the 3k and 2k heals for druids and shamans more of a raid lvl healing...I would make them lvl 60 spells and to be honest I wouldnt even give the 2k heal to shaman....MY personal oppinion there.

EZ_Bikkun Wolfen

08-22-02, 01:08 AM

You know I was full of hope that this would not degenerate into a bunch of people saying well since you got this, I want this. And even worse yet is the Aleged Clerics that come here and say "If these spells go live I will quit!" Guess what there is the Door, don't let it hit ya on the way out!!!

I have played a Druid from early on and yes I have found that I like the Druid Class!

But lets face it Clerics were given CH and that caused a spiral of out of control HP's on MOBs. When was the last time that Druid and Shaman healing was addressed, a long time ago. Now as a Level 60 Druid with 2AA points (Yes 2) because I only bring out the Druid for ports anymore (at least it seems this way) I might actually be able to find a group.

I have spent levels in Seb, Chardok, Velks you name the place and it goes something like this.

Bikkun says out of character **Level 54 druid looking for a group**
Anon Rogue says ooc **Level 52 Rogue LFG**
Anon Cleric says ooc**Level 48 cleric LFG**
Anon Group says ooc **Cleric to *insert camp***
Anon Cleric tells you **Bikkun could you invis me so i can get to my group**

And this has gone on all the way up to level 60!

Now that we have something that might make us at least a little wanted, people are threatening to leave the game. Get a grip, First of all these spells are only on test and may never go live. Secondly if every Cleric in this game left tomorrow then Verant would just give your spells to the Druids and Shammies and the game would go on. **Verant would not want to loose their bread and butter.**

Wait and see if #1 these spells even go live, #2 if you get anything out of the deal.

When my best heal will heal a bubble or less of health on a tank that I have buffed not to mention fully raid buffed there is something wrong with a class that is supposed to be considered a Preist (therefore a Healer). Consider Natures Touch a Level 60 spell that costs 250 mana and heals about 30 hps a tick and lasts I believe 30 ticks that equals 900 points of regen in 3 min (not sure about any increase with the 10% cap being lifted) but also has a refresh time of 1 min 30 sec. But let me guess I should go out and get a ton of AA points and put them into the healing AA's in order to get better heals.

Now that Clerics will be having a little more fun finding a group instead of the gimmie groups that they use to have and they start shouting that the sky is falling, I have something to say to you. Now you will know how I felt when trying to get groups sometimes. and maybe you will suffer the ultimate humiliation like I did where one time I did find a group, was there for about 10 min and doing really well on things only to see **Level 45 Cleric LFG** and next thing I know the group says see ya Bikkun and disbands and then the LFG Cleric shows up and they join him up and start killing like nothing ever happened (At the time that this happened I was level 57 and all others in the group were of similar levels) But will this happen to Clerics, I do not see that happening. Will Druids and Shamen be able to heal better, yes, but will they totally replace Clerics I do not believe so.

Bikkun Wolfen
Hierophant
&
Daldolin Deathdealer
Rake of 51 Seasons
Both of Saryrn

EZ_Panamah

08-22-02, 01:33 AM

What most of you don't realize is that on uber encounters in the cheal chain, clerics don't heal all that many hitpoints if they're timing things right. If a warrior is losing more than 75% of their hit point they're not going to last. On the average a good cheal chain is healing around 2k to 2.5k per cheal.

This means that, depending on how this is implemented, druids and shammies could do the cheal chain.

I play rogue, druid, cleric and shammy. All are level 60 except the shammy is 55. I'm happy about the heal change but I think clerics are due for some massive retuning to make them more fun to play. I think the change will be good for my guild. We'd hugely benefit from having more capable healers.

EZ_akra

08-22-02, 01:48 AM

When will the average bozo learn that it is not because one or multiple classes get fixed that automatically they will get some form of compensation. Besides there are allready 2 new heals on test for them that should make them happy.

Why is there a bazillion of cleric bots if they were simply sorely needed to the point that lots are just enough and few = none?

No raid can take place without plenty of them. Fact.
Most high end guilds have 1 to 3 shaman/druids. Fact.

The game will just be richer to all, clerics included by being more versatile in the healing department.

Being heirophant and high priest makes me twice glad it finally happened. Edited by: akra at: 8/22/02 2:51:54 am

EZ_Voon

08-22-02, 01:59 AM

Uhm, just from the shaman point of view:

To us, i's a nicety, not much else. We are OOM anyway from slowing, debuffing on raids and if I heal, then I use torpor, which has a better ratio than this new CH anyway. Of course, torpor doesn't work on something like a maintank, where you need a fast instant heal, but I hardly see any shamen filling some cleric role, not by far. We do our own stuff.

This change would be helping druids bigtime, though, and I think they should get this. In exp groups, they will get groups now, replacing a cleric. Druids have not got groups for long (now forget about this solo-quad counterargument for a while). This gives them a chance. Clerics being LFG? You're kidding, right? 'Main' classes like clerics always sat in the sunny side, finding groups faster than most other people and rezzing will never be out of fashion. Druids/Shamen will never get rezzing, either. This is just a change, to get druids/shamen on par with current mobs and tank HP's. CH was always up to par, because it's always 100%. not so for the rest of the heal spells. I agree, though, that clerics should get this kind of spell, too, so it clsoes a gap between CH and their other better heals of 1k.
Edited by: Voon at: 8/22/02 3:02:03 am

EZ_Thorvald01

08-22-02, 02:26 AM

There are only 2 reasons I want a druid in my xp group.

1. Snare
2. Succor

If anyone should be worried its the wizards..

EZ_Mordania

08-22-02, 03:17 AM

A good change probably, at least for raid situations. Using 75% CHs in a chain would have the same effect as forcing the warrior to take off all his hp gear. There is a huge difference between a warrior with 5k hp and a warrior with 7k hp. Which one would you choose as MT?

However, I think the real problem is that the difference is too great between CHs and other heals. Why not give clerics a 2k 400 mana 5 sec heal, druids a 1.5k 350 mana 6 sec heal and shamans a 1k 300 mana 7 sec heal or something like that? SH was balanced against CHs back when tanks had 2.5k hp. Now that tanks have 7.5k the other heals have slipped behind.

EZ_Prodigious

08-22-02, 04:12 AM

as i've posted on other board, i think this is great. no more total dependency of clerics to raid low- to semi-hard boss mobs.

BUT...i think clerics need some serious 'bones'. invis, 25pt MoR, 10pt MoK, 98% rez with lowered mana cost, upgraded DL (like 1200hp for 300 mana), etc.

EZ_LamoratGlobal

08-22-02, 04:12 AM

If you read the posts in EQcleric on the new spells for clerics on Test server, you will see they are quite useless to clerics. Afterall, cleric is fine/efficient in healing already, how adding new healing spells are gonna help clerics?

I do agree Druids need changes in the raid situation and the cleric "monopoly" on raids need to be broken, but do clerics need to be undermined so much in the other aspects? Who is going to start a new cleric?

You know, this change mostly affect the 50 -58 clerics who NEED to get exp to reach 60, who don't have CE, MoK, Aego, BAoR yet. Due to lack of ability to solo, their situation are already lame. How clerics are going to regain their exp loss due to deaths in raids? Only thro duoing I think then.

I think all people will agree that leveling a druid is faster/(arguably easier) than leveling a cleric. How balancing is going to compensate clerics for it?

This change sure is good for raids. But how many % of the population of EQ can already forget about exping and keep raiding? People still need to look at the exping aspects and not only concentrate on raids

Just my opinion

BTW, a druid who posted on the EQcleric has already asking Rich to "look into the rez situation". Hummmm maybe now druids want a certain % of rez ..........

Ston 60 High Priest
Lamorat 56 Outrider

EZ_Orolmy

08-22-02, 04:53 AM

I don't want a rez, it annoys the hell out of me that I get calls to come pick complete strangers up and port them somewhere else, but the idea of can you come to x, port me to y, then wait while I drag my corpse and rez me, then Sow and invis me? makes me shudder.

I hate soloing, it fecking tedious... I've had to do it the majority of my druids life.. But for that matter, I hate XPing.. I live for the raid.. xp sucks.

A heal for 3k that takes the EXACT same time a cleric casts their CH isn't going to make Clerics redundant over night..

Oh, and as for the "it's the wizards that should be worried" comment.. give me a break.. don't you think they bitch enough about druids as it is without egging them on?

EZ_araxas xev

08-22-02, 05:18 AM

I really don't like these new spells.

In try to address druid usefulness on higher end raids (which I will grant is pretty damn lacking at the moment) they come up with this partial-3k CH as the solution. I will grant that on its own this spell solves that problem pretty nicely, making druids viable as rampage tank healers, or even MT healers on lower end stuff. For guilds that are cleric-shy this probably opens some new doors too.

But at what cost?

- First of all they are giving shammies this as well. Does anyone seriously think shamans need this? They already have 3 well-defined raid roles (slows/Malo, buffing, and Torpor on various casters modding), which is a lot more than pretty much any class in the game has. In all but a few zones they are as effective as a cleric as the group's primary healer when slows and mana regen from canni are factored in. To top this off they can solo and duo with the best of them. Does what may be the best rounded class in the game right now really need another major upgrade? Where shammies need fixing are the drop rates on their spells: quadruple the drop rate on Malo and Torp and you've fixed 99% of the class right there. There is absolutely no reason they need this, give them a new DoT or something instead.

- Blending of classes makes the game boring. Most classes are already walking a thin line of only having one, two at most skills that "define" them. I'm all for giving druids new abilities to increase their raid utility, but is giving them a scaled-down version of another class's defining spell as creative as Verant is capable of getting to fix them? I'd be pretty dissapointed if I was a druid, lagging behind in raid utility for at least 2 years now, and my final upgrade and raid-defining spell basically makes me a gimp version of another class.

- Give me one reason you would use a cleric over a shaman in an xp group after this that "/ooc donating 100p for a rez" can't solve? With the exception of a few camps deep in CT where you'll still need both classes, there really is no reason. With the amount of level 60 newbs I see everyday, its a pretty safe assumption post 55 xp is already too easy. Freeing up a spot for yet another damage dealer in groups at most camps will make it even easier yet.

- The game has always existed on a basic specialization vs. utility balance. Clerics are a pain in the ass to play, so are warriors. They can't solo, they can't move around well with no invises and make sacrifices to be some of the most effective raiding classes. Druids are the opposite, they can do everything well but make sacrifices when it comes to raiding. Unless you want to make certain classes pointless to play this balance needs to remain roughly intact. I'm not suggesting druids should be useless at raids, but giving them abilities that start to encroach on the specialist classes who sacrifice all for raiding isn't right. Much as mages bitch about it, summoning lazy-ass latecomers and pumping mods are two competely unique and very important abilities that absolutely no other class has. IMO the solution to balancing druids is along these lines: give them something of their own. Edited by: araxas xev at: 8/22/02 6:32:28 am

EZ_Rianne

08-22-02, 05:50 AM

I play a 60 Druid and 60 Rogue and my first impression is that 75% is just too much. Really cuts into cleric healing territory until the high end game. Druid healing is pretty weak at high level but I figured that was the tradeoff. Course I'm an evoc specialist cause I would have made a cleric if I wanted to heal. I guess it does fill a better role on high end raids where druids cant really do much damage since we have no aggro reduction ability.

Big tradeoff I can see in xp groups is druid armor is just not made to take the hits. I have a whopping 904ac and 2200 hp self buffed. No DA to escape either. I either root adds or die.

This would make the druid bot incredible though. Port/sow/invis/ds/regen and what is essentially cheal for all but uber tanks.

EZ_Loydah Furiousheart

08-22-02, 06:07 AM

Now I want backstab please.

EZ_Mentin

08-22-02, 06:19 AM

What worries me is the long-term availablity of clerics.

I am in a high-end guild doing Ssra emperor, VT etc etc.. and we kinda NEED our clerics.

We already have a hard time recruiting highlevel clerics, and it seems the turnaround on clerics is higher that for some other classes.

Already I hear clerics complaining about being replaced with shamans/druids in xp groups.. and this will make that even more possible.

So why play a cleric when your healing specialty is not that much in demand during the xp part of the game? This probably will lead to even less people developing highlevel clerics.

Oh well, there is always alts I guess

EZ_oakfist

08-22-02, 06:44 AM

Love to see a massive kneejerk based on something that just hit Test.

BTW one of the PoP spells will be a massive wizard AE that damagies enemies and heals friendlies, and has a stun component. Verant love wizards and hates clerics and chanters. Remember, you heard it here first.

EZ_Arliss Michaels

08-22-02, 07:01 AM

It all depends on what class the Devs at VI are playing this month. Like 90% of them must be playing monks, there is no other reason why they could be broken like they are. Must be a few new Druid characters in San Diego.

They're chimps...bottom line.
"OMG, clerics have CH so powah~ let's ignore them forever and make druids even more powerful every patch."

EZ_Apollohades

08-22-02, 07:10 AM

As a cleric, I dislike the new cleric spells as they're a negligible improvement and I HATE the new druid/shaman spells on test.

But it's nice to see all the non-clerics telling clerics that they know what's good for us.

ShadowCross

08-22-02, 07:16 AM

Oh, for all those that are comparing this to Warriors getting Backstab...

Get serious.... Druids & Shamans could already heal, they just get a better one now.

Warriors never could backstab yet, so giving them backstab would compare to either of the following, which hasn't happened yet:

- Clerics getting gate.
- Druids/Shamans getting rez.

So either think about a real comparison or just drop it.

Personally I love the raid-aspect of these new spells... we actually might see guilds with more than 2-3 druids/shaman each, as compared to about 10-15 clerics.

ANY class-depency is bad - be it warrior, cleric or enchanter.

EZ_Brazzlethorpe

08-22-02, 07:24 AM

Nice to see all the clerics glossing over the insane spells they are now testing in compensation rather than admit they are crying for nothing.

WAAHHH where's MY yaulp 5! Whatever. When you quit, be sure to email me your login and password K?

EZ_VaryssTheShaman

08-22-02, 07:29 AM

Do Shaman *need* this spell? No, shaman are a decent class as is, and this thing won't even be cast by level 60 shaman very much if at all. But the caster balancing is not to just add *needed* things-- it is to enhance casters across the board, since they basically lagged behind melee with the release of Velious.

I think most shaman would rather see improvements to those things that really define shaman (better regens, better debuffs, better buffs, better pets, better tanking ability, better DoTs), but I think Verant has already judged that better abilities for shaman in a lot of those areas (especially debuffs) would have far ranging effects that they can't stomach. So they give us this spell, which appears to be great, but in reality is not that earth shaking. It's kind of like chloroblast-- better than what we were using before, but nothing that's going to impress anyone. If anyone should be complaining about these spells it's paladins-- in many ways they had managed to surpass druids and shaman as healers, and now they are back to third class healers (tho certainly still very good for being a melee class).

So instead we get this healing spell, which is very nice until we get Torpor, but no great shakes after than.

I'll give up this heal as a shaman-- all I want are self buffs like the cleric "armor of..." line, stuns like clerics, and some weak rezzes. :P

j/k clerics... settle down...

EZ_Xaen Neax

08-22-02, 07:47 AM

Clerics for the most part are already impossible to find. A lot simply quit because they're sick of everything. This change probably won't help things. Or will it? Verant will be stuck with a decision .. It will certainly fill those gaps of missing clerics in guilds and provide that extra healing, but it will also tell those other few clerics who are still playing that they're still needed, that shaman/druids will be a game band-aid. What needs to be done is make it so more people would want to play a cleric, rather than clerics wanting to just not play anymore.

Probably too late in the game to do this either way .. Just take notes for EQ2..

EZ_boldir

08-22-02, 07:48 AM

Maybe if you're a level 60 shaman with Torpor. But like the other 99% of us who don't own Torpor this will be a great spell.

But I think the real reason for these 'power-ups' is ready for the planes of power. Basically they are doing this so that guilds will be able to face the challenges that are going to be in PoP. (I hope)

EZ_Sumeine Highsoul

08-22-02, 07:58 AM

1) When eating mod rods I have a shaman torporing me, that way I can move around without having to stay still for the 10 secs till the druid has healed me, I can also eat one rod, get Torpored and then start eating another without having to freak because i'm getting low HP and the druid got interrupted.

2) CH is the LAST remaining class defining ability clerics have. Necros got rezzes (albeit quite expensice) and pallies get our 90% rez...a difference of 6% in XP restoration isn't much.

3) It is hard enough to find a group as a cleric because each group only holds enough space for one cleric at the maximum (unless it's the CH group on a raid). However any other class can provide some skills that can be shared with a second group member of the same class...nukes, debuffs, buffs, heals. Cleric nukes are WORTHLESS due to a too high resist rate.

4) In a standard CH rotation yu don't heal efficiently, you heal with a safety net, this means druids and shammies could very well replace clerics in CH cycles since the HP healed on a CH tank per CH in a rotation is usually never more than 3k or it can be too dangerous (one cleric lagging and your tank will be at 10% or less HP when next cleric casts).

Many shamen think the partial CHs are overpowered, only druids think it is UNDERPOWERED.

Druids are very well-balanced and the whiners playing druids would actually know it if they would focus on mastering their class rather than whine (there ARE a FEW good druids out there...druids who don't whine because they know every facet of their class).

Well if this change goes live you can add me to the list of retired clerics. 3 years of nerfing and no end in sight...over 170 days played on my cleric...but THIS...is too much if it goes live.

Sumeine Highsoul
High Priestess of Tunare
Bertoxx

EZ_Rainus7

08-22-02, 08:07 AM

'Druids are very well-balanced and the whiners playing druids would actually know it if they would focus on mastering their class rather than whine (there ARE a FEW good druids out there...druids who don't whine because they know every facet of their class).'

Are you a druid ?

And you are saying that the bulk of the druids community with includes Main druids from some of the best guilds from different servers don't know their class when they put forth requests to improve their healing abilities

EZ_Hadekkin

08-22-02, 08:22 AM

Quote: Now that Clerics will be having a little more fun finding a group instead of the gimmie groups that they use to have and they start shouting that the sky is falling, I have something to say to you. Now you will know how I felt when trying to get groups sometimes. and maybe you will suffer the ultimate humiliation like I did ...

Tell you what...I'll play the LFG druid that can't get a group, and you play the LFG cleric that can't get a group. I'll port to and run to [insert zone] at super SoW speed, while invis, then snare / root / DoT / kite the nearest blue mob...heck maybe I'll do four of them at once. At just when I'm medding up from that first hefty block of solo exp, maybe, just maybe, your unsowed uninvis "just ran across 6 zones" sorry cleric behind will be in an exp zone where clerics can solo. Have fun blowing 60-80% of your mana on that one blue mob. [i]

EZ_Thumpman

08-22-02, 08:32 AM

Does anyone know for a fact how these new not really CH CH spells work?

IE: Is it capped at 75% in the same way that Bind Wound is capped? IE: it will NOT increase current HP beyond 75% of Total HP? Or is it that it heals ~3k or 75% whichever is less.

I have seen alot of I THINK it is like this but no one from test actually saying what it REALLY is...

Edited by: Thumpman at: 8/22/02 9:58:44 am

EZ_Yurian24

08-22-02, 08:32 AM

Ethereal Elixir-
A Group HoT spell for 1200hp over 4 ticks costing 1050 mana

To much freekin mana, may as well cast group CH for the 50 mana difference

Ethereal Light-
A single target 1600hp heal for 525 mana

You gotta be kidding me right? 525 mana???? BAHAHA insanely powerful!!! NOT

Hammer of Judgement-
A summoned hammer with unknown stats/attributes

O thank the lord... ANOTHER summoned hammer... JUST what every cleric wanted... *sigh*

Yaulp V-
A new Yaulp that regens 30 mana, adds dex, gives 25% haste, lowers stamina usage, and adds 50atk

OOOOO Yaulp... i know just where this is going in my spellbook... on page 32 right next to Yaulp4. Well maybe not... i can regen a whole 30 mana each time i cast this one.

Yep we are really glossing over those super powerful spells that are being thrown our way *sigh*

EZ_Sumeine Highsoul

08-22-02, 08:39 AM

Play a cleric and you'll learn a LOT about other classes, especially aggro.

Talk with other people to know them and their class.

I know quite a few druids who are happy playing a druid and who don't whine. They can make a great addition to the group because they know how to play their class.

/shrug, clerics are a boring class to play, to remedy to that boredom I watch other people which gives me pretty good knowledge about the different classes I group with.

Oh and you don't have to be in your local uber guild to be a good druid or player. Your complaints are also not absolutely valid if you come from your friendly neighborhood uber guild. to me you're just a player and even if you got some tag of a powerhouse guild added to your name you're not a god who's all-knowing to me.

I have seen lvl 55 people do their job better than lvl 60 with tons of AA uber guild people.

Sumeine Highsoul
High Priestess of Tunare
Bertoxx

EZ_Sharpie Mharkur

08-22-02, 09:00 AM

Quote: has anyone thought that maybe the 75% cap is different than you are looking at? The way i am interpreting it is it will heal the person to at max of 75% of their life. Meaning if a player has 4k hps and is at 2999 hps and gets druid/shaman CH they will get healed for 1 hp since 3k is 75% of 4k.

That was my understanding, it doesn't seem to be what the general concensus is... On the other hand, if the bugged CH message we were getting last week is any indication, then CH isn't even a percentage anyway, it's just a 10,500 hp heal...

EZ_Melodie Songbird

08-22-02, 09:16 AM

Quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ethereal Elixir-
A Group HoT spell for 1200hp over 4 ticks costing 1050 mana

To much freekin mana, may as well cast group CH for the 50 mana difference

Ethereal Light-
A single target 1600hp heal for 525 mana

You gotta be kidding me right? 525 mana???? BAHAHA insanely powerful!!! NOT
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahah
Verant said they want 2 of the other priest classes to be as useful as a cleric.
Topor 200 mana... 1200 heal
New cleric heal 525 for 1600 heal
Anyone else see a ratio problem here?

EZ_FrisWizard

08-22-02, 09:22 AM

Quote: There are only 2 reasons I want a druid in my xp group.

1. Snare
2. Succor

If anyone should be worried its the wizards..
Hmmm? There are still wizards who look for groups? I gave up on all that six levels ago .

EZ_Azeca

08-22-02, 09:33 AM

apple and oranges.

Torpor - 200 mana
Increase 300 hp per tick, for 4 ticks (for a total of 1200 hp)
Decrease movement by 100 percent
Decrease attack speed by 30 percent.

Heal per sec per mana = 1200/24/200 = 0.25

Etheral Light
New Cleric Heal - 525 mana
increase 1600 hp
cast time 5 seconds.

heal per sec per mana = 1600/525/5 = 0.6095

This is what clerics have been asking for. A heal to gap the hole from divine light(950 hp heal) to complete heal (on average about 4k heal on the tank).

Ask clerics if they would like a 2700 heal for 10 seconds. It's useless to us. We dont want the druid complete heal.

Azeca McTollen
High Priest of Tunare
The Tribunal

EZ_Ylaine76

08-22-02, 10:19 AM

As someone with a 60 cleric I gotta say I love the new DL and CE, not sure why other clerics arent thinking these are good

Personally I *hate* Divine light, its a horrible spell that only drains your mana. Its like an escape spell if you dont pay attention and its only use is on spam healing on major raids really. This new Divine light is more mana, but higher ratio and heals a ton more HP which will make it a lot more useful.

I dont know about anyone else, but I love celestial elixir, besides complete heal it's the clerics best heal as its basically 0 aggro and heals a good amount. Ever since luclin I've been really wanting group CE and now here it is

Edit - Although the mana cost for the new CE is overpriced, since most group spells are 3x the original mana cost..So it should be 900 not 1050 imo. Group CH is 1100 so a bit less than 3x Or atleast group spells are generally 3x or less, like blessing of aego is less than 3x, but more than 3x sorta sucks. At 1050 this spell is really bad But I still love the idea! 50 mana less than group ch makes me shake my head Edited by: Ylaine76 at: 8/22/02 11:23:04 am

EZ_Lyria Whisperwind

08-22-02, 10:19 AM

Naturally rogues are in favor of these changes...after all, the methods druids used to get these potential boosts to the top the wis caster heap are the same methods rogues used to get themselves boosted to the top the melee heap.

"We need better heals!" - here's Chloroblast and NT, happy?

"We need better heals!" - no 10% penalty, happy?

"We need better heals!" - here's 75% CH, happy?

"We need rezzes!" ...

EZ_mmshah

08-22-02, 10:39 AM

As a 60 shaman with torpor, I dont find that partial CH thing that useful. What I would rather have is a spell like that Ethereal Light spell. A quick casting, not that efficent heal for 1600 hps. That is the type of heal that all healer classes should get, Pal/Shm/Cle/Dru.

CH is the realm of the cleric and no other class should get that ability, we should however get a spell that allows us to assist heal, albeit inefficently. Chloroblast as an assist heal is totally worthless, it just cant get Hps on the target fast enuff.

EZ_Datalore

08-22-02, 11:40 AM

If this goes live, you will see druids in CH chains in cases where there is a shortage of clerics, yes, even for AoW. All the druids have to do is shave a little time off the standard CH time for the clerics so they heal less damage (and get the tank back to full)

This is a good thing for the high end game. More versatility means it will be easier to have the right number of healers online to complete high end encounters with ruining the night for everyone.

This is also a blessing to second tier guilds that for three years now have had to put up with their clerics being recruited by the top tier guilds, completely crippling the smaller guild's raiding capability and even endangering its very existence.

EZ_ddubois

08-22-02, 12:03 PM

How many raids don't get attempted due to lack of clerics? "Sorry guys Rumble is up, but we only have 2 clerics, and we need a 3rd for rampage healing." Then you spend the next hour fretting over a cleric logging in, someone else getting the mob, you start sending pleading tells to unguilded clerics, whatever.

How many clerics get burnt out on EQ and quit because of the massive amount of pressure and guilt trips placed on them to play every day, to stay logged in later than they want, etc. "You can't log! We need you!" "You can't XP we need you for the raid!" "Get off your twink, you bastard". Clerics churn alot faster than other classes from what I've seen.

Have you ever seen a group attempt 4c in CT without a cleric? How many AE groups have you been in that didn't have a cleric? If you are killing easy @#%$ mobs like velks spider, then yes, you don't need a cleirc. That won't change. If you are doing anything at all difficult, a cleric is the powah.

Maybe this does reduce the XP group desirablity of clerics in super easy XP settings. I'm not yet convinced this is even an issue. But if that's the case, make the spell a NODROP scroll and a raid level drop (off HoT and WToV mobs?), and/or make it a level 59 or 60 spell.

This spell line solves so many more problems than it creates. I really think it's a good thing for the playerbase as a whole. If individual clerics become slightly less essential, well, I'm sorry, but it's worth it. You have been and will continue to be the center of attention, do not worry.

PS: IMO, there should be no HP number cap on these new spells, only a HP percentage cap. And group CE should cost less.
Edited by: ddubois at: 8/22/02 1:07:10 pm

EZ_Dakaraiofbristlebane

08-22-02, 12:10 PM

This is a very beneficial change for raids. This is honestly the end of cleric usefulness in xp groups...or the death of what little was left.

Druids and Shaman, shaman in particular, are already perfectly adequate healers for the majority of xp groups but had trouble keeping up at raids where they may be called on to do the healing for all the players that aren't MT & are eating up AE damage. The fix I see is to give them a good group HoT spell like the group CE that is being proposed for clerics. This would enable them to kick in good healing on raids without making them even better in groups.

Get the cleric complaint now? No cleric cares that druids want more roles at a raid: they need more roles at a raid & everyone should be for this. Shamans have plenty of raid duties as is & adding more to the list without increasing mana isn't really a help In XP groups though clerics are already 3rd best healers in terms of what they bring to a group. If the healing abilities of all three priests is good enough to keep up with the place you xp grind then you can pick your healer on what else they bring & by any measure the cleric brings the least outside of healing. Clerics need some utility or DPS improvements to make them more desirable in groups. We don't need any boost at raids since all my raid mana is burned keeping folks healed.

Oh, and Shadowcross: the givign warriors backstab comparison IS fair. Warriors do damage now, with backstab they would just do more.

--dak

EZ_Khuzdul69

08-22-02, 12:26 PM

I don't mind druids or shamans getting some form of CH as it points to some schitzo thinking in VI. VI has gone on record that rez and CH are powerful spells that in some cases are almost unbalancing and so want to limit the players that have it. Outcome is that Clerics have a very narrow game role that is also quite boring and their epic is put on the tightest leash possible in terms of a solid max number entering over a given period of time. Then VI turns around and give some form of CH out to more people, someone somewhere in VI must not think that it is so unbalancing. The only thing that I would like to see BEFORE THESE SPELLS GO LIVE is that with the dilution of the "monopoly" that Clerics have on the CH market, that the game role of the Cleric expands and thus makes the class more fun to play and have more of a core role in the game then sit med heal on exp groups or ch bridge on raids, clicker for CR's. The current spells on test do not do anything for clerics by even the largest stretch of the imagination.

No, this would not need to be spell areas that infringe on other classes abilities, perhaps re-jigger some of the existing cleric buff classes for different combos, conditional increases/decreases, etc, or even new type spells. Say for example a MoK MoR that is unresistable when cast on undead, another for summoned mobs, lower level Aegolism style spells that combine some existing buffs, etc. How about a spell that when cast upon a PC gives them a small 1 pt "bane" type damage for undead, who knows.

My take on the new Cleric spells:

Hammer of Judgement - We aren't going to be meleeing no matter what awsome ration vs undead it has or DD it includes unless it's for a lark or we are very very bored because the raid is just so zerged that this hammer doesn't matter. The 8 wis and 35 mana might help some clerics that haven't yet gotten a better mainhand wis item. It's more of a "novelty" spell that you pull out for grins.

Yaulp V - same as Hammer of judgement, self attack buff of, dex buff of 75 and 25% self haste is of no help. Costs 25 mana to cast, regens 10 mana a tick, lasts for 4 ticks. Net 15 mana over 4 ticks. Unfortunatly since Yaulp spell line doesn't stack with cleric self buff line which includes Blessed Armour of the Risen, not many people will be bothering to memorize or use this spell. Especially after the aggrivation factor of having to stand cast and sit every 24 seconds to keep it going. Hotkey macros nonwithstanding, I'm not a bard...

Etheral Light - Upgrade to Divine Light, could be situationally useful but the mana inefficiencies that were in existance with the entire line of heal spells (~3hps per mana) are just so evident now with this spell (525 mana) that it cuts too deeply into my pool to use often so I quite frankly will probably nto bother to memorize it and would rather stick to Divine Light/Celestial Elixer. To be frank, more often than not, it would be better for my group/raid for whomever that wasn't the MT that drew the greater than 1000 damage in 4.5 seconds (ie exceed divine light stopgap healing abilities) to die rather then the cleric blow 1050 mana for two casts of etheral light or 2.5 CH and loose a the MT or ST. If I just needed to heal the amount of hps that Etheral light healed and didn't need a "fast cast" 5 second spell, then I would just use CH and save 125 mana, or Celesital Elixer.

Etheral Elixer - Well, what can I say... It will heal 1200 hps per group member over 24 seconds. Add in 5.5 second casting time that's 1200hps per member for about a 30 second wait and 1050. I'll spend the extra 50 mana and do a group CH for 1100 mana and get everyone fully healed for more than 1200hps in one third the total time. If it was an immediate heal instead of a 4 tick "heal over time" I might use it every now and again for AoE mobs

EZ_Cheriffe

08-22-02, 12:32 PM

"Yaulp V-
A new Yaulp that regens 30 mana, adds dex, gives 25% haste, lowers stamina usage, and adds 50atk"

You're saying Clerics wouldn't like Cannibalization? (before you flame me, yes I realize Yaulp has a long recast time, but this is essentially a limited Cann)

From what it sounds like, any Cleric under level 60 hates the new spells because they think it will hinder their ability to get a group, and any level 60 Cleric loves them because they are super useful on raids. Well, you're not sub-level-60 forever.

Personally, I love them and can't wait for them to go live.

EZ_Jinxter01

08-22-02, 12:43 PM

Unfortunately, this change will affect everyone other than the cleric. Clerics will not be as desirable in groups, therefore not everyone will have one. When an xp group wipes, or someone dies, you call a cleric to res naturally. A cleric that was not invited to the group and is LFG won't want to res, and a cleric that is already in a group won't want to res. So people won't get as many reses.

The real problem is that there are no alternatives to regaining death xp. If there was a quest people could do to get an item with 1 charge of revivisense, I think everyone would rejoice. Even the clerics, because then they wouldn't have to res you

EZ_Yurian24

08-22-02, 12:44 PM

The net on the regen is actually about 15 mana. Recast is 24 seconds. So assuming you have a good connection, and allowing for throwing another heal if needed, you can regen another 30 mana in a minute. Not to mention that you actually have to stand up to cast it, so its possible that unless your timing your ticks pretty closly that you will lose more mana from standing and casting in a minute then this will regen.

EZ_Khuzdul69

08-22-02, 12:48 PM

New Yaulp spell from what I read is only a 10mana per tick regen and costs 25 mana to cast, lasts for 4 ticks max. 15 mana over 4 ticks is not mana regen. Especially as the Yaulp line historicly doesn't stack with the cleric self buff lines including Blessed Armour of the Risen which is has a 6 mana per tick regen and lasts far longer than 4 ticks. It's not a limited Cann by any streatch of the imagination and no one is going to use it for mana regen or any of it's other "self buff" attributes.

I've never heard any cleric including ones at level 60 with and without AA saying anything close to "love the new spells" or "The new spells will be useful in raid situations) because to be honest, they just aren't good. While they may just rot in the spellbook, life will go on.

EZ_ChianaXev

08-22-02, 12:52 PM

Compare the 15 mana gained with Yaulp V to the 24 mana gained with Blessed Armor of the Risen in the exact same time frame - and you don't have to recast BAotR every 24 seconds.

EZ_AshiusX

08-22-02, 01:02 PM

I have to say I'm very impressed with the selflessness some clerics have shown by realizing that this is a good thing for their friends and their guild, if not also for themselves.

I'd love to see clerics get some more variety in their spells. I won't pretend to know what spells they would like to have, but I really do think more of a selection would make clerics more interesting to play. Even with a new variety of spells though, I'm not sure clerics would get the chance to use them if they are overburdened by healing duties.

Clerics being the best healers is a blessing and a curse imho. On the one hand, they are able to heal better than any other class by a wide margin. Which makes them wildly desirable. On the other hand, since nobody else can come close to filling their shoes as healer they are expected to keep everyone alive, and that responsibility hampers their ability to use their mana for other spells. If they do and then don't have the mana to heal at a critical moment then they have let everyone down. If druids and shaman can be better secondary healers, I think this would open up more opportunities for clerics to cast different types of spells, thereby making the class more fun to play.

I feel like druids do need an upgrade to their healing abilities. Druids should be able to handle the healing for an average xp group, and currently in a lot of situations this just isn't the case. Although, 54 maybe a bit low for this new spell or maybe the spell needs to be toned down a tad for level 54. A lot of druids in their 50s would love the chance to be more useful in a group instead of being forced to solo or go play an alt.

From what I've read, once shamen get torpor the new shaman spell is kind of useless to them anyway. I would imagine it would be very welcome until that point though.

I can understand how clerics would feel threatened by this. However, I don't know if they realize what it's like for those of us who can't get groups together because there aren't any cleric's available, or when a cleric leaves a group and a replacement isn't available so the group has to disband, or when a guild wants to do something but can't since they don't have adequate healing power because they don't have enough clerics, and their shamen and druids don't have the tools to do the job. If there were currently more clerics available then this wouldn't be an issue, but usually there just aren't enough, and everyone else suffers because of our dependance on one class. The same could be said to a lesser extent about enchanters. Hopefully the new high level bard song will help with this issue.

Druids and shamen shouldn't be able to fill the healer role as well as a cleric, but they should be able to fill the role if a cleric isn't available. I'm glad to see Verant finally addressing some of the class dependance issues, but I don't want to see clerics left out in the cold either. Hopefully they will find a good balance.

Ashius
Assassin of Pactum
Vazaelle

EZ_Apollohades

08-22-02, 01:13 PM

Khuzdul69 summarized it perfectly.

Clerics (and I'm a lvl 60) have the most horrific epic to complete, repeated nerfs and watched other classes gain the few tasks and abilities that we held.

Anyone who thinks these changes wouldn't affect us if they went live... is smoking tetley tea leaves.

EZ_Davie is me

08-22-02, 01:27 PM

first Im a 60 cleric, not on test but Ive been playing for 3 years so I know my class.

New cleric spells:

Yaulp V:

First this spell doesnt stack with armor of the risen(58 mana regen+200hps) so it will never be used in exp groups unless your stupid enough to want focus, or dont have armor of the risen yet. The spell itself is horribly stupid.

Hammer of Judgement:

lowering the manacost on the stupid 54 hammer pet from 600 to 250 is nice, the pet was a joke previously. However it still dies once the mob dies, it still has like 200hps. If it has decient dps it sounds "okay" its just another slight dot. I dont see this being used on raid situations, clerics are too busy doing the CH Order, rodding, healing mezzers/rampage tank etc. It only seems useful in fights where the mob is alive for more than 5 mins, then the dps gets up there, but 250 mana = halfway to another uber ch, so it wont be used.

Etheral Light:

Upgrade to Divine light, looks nice on paper, 1600hps 5 second cast time 525 mana. For me though 95% of the time in exp groups I dont have divine light up, so I really wont need etheral light either. I use Elixir on a 2ndary tank getting dmged, or on the chanter if he got knocked down to 60% mezing or slowing or whatever. But Ch is just so much more efficent than anything else. I would only see this replacing DL as a fast cast for a mezer or shaman taking dmg in a raid, not bad but 525 mana is alot.

Etheral Elixer:

again doesnt look bad on paper, 1200 over 4 ticks in 24 seconds, at 1050 m