The Role of a Cleric

[EZ_Amethysst]

OK for a long time now clerics have simply just been there to make raids successful with there CH cycle - but in groups most people can live without a cleric. the same could be said about shamans and enchanters too - that was until PoP came out!

since PoP was released its been a case that if you didnt get a slower you pretty much didnt get a group going. shamans and enchanters are a must - almost as much as a cleric with one exception... with just a cleric and no slower the average number of deaths per mob increased tenfold!

Now most people seem to think as clerics being your typical roleplaying cleric arctype - healer, semi-melee, slayer of undead - but in EQ we have a more healer heavy side.

Some people have suggested during class balancing "increase our melee capabilities", "Give Clerics bash" (which i think suits), and "Increase our undead Nukes!". but they are all missing the key point that makes us better than shamans and druids as healers...

Clerics are a plate class (one of 4) and so we should be able to tank as good as them! Why? Because we are the lead healers - we are the ones who keep the main tank alive on Raids and in groups yet at the cost of possibly our own lives. We need to be able to take a beating just as well as the warrior so that the warrior has a chance to taunt back off of us (Not hope and pray the slower lands slow or the chanter manages to deagro you in time!).

So i suggest this to all clerics reading this - lets see if we can persuade verant to up our defensive abilities - to all clerics reading this i ask you to email verant and ask them to consider increasing clerics defensive abilities - increase defense, increase dodge, give us block (to compensate for the shields only obvious use as an offensive tool to interrupt casting) - to basically make us tanks without the damage output.

i dunno about the rest of you but im fed up with every time i CH just a second too soon, im hoping and praying i hit DA before i hit 0 hit points

--------------------------------
Venerable Amethysst [Stormhammer]
61 High Priest (Erudite) <Europa>

[EZ_Mrmann12]

yeah, you should melee like a rogue and nuke like a wizard too. Hell, pets anyone?

As a paladin im already pissed that clerics can come within a few dps of a well equiped paladin just by buying a hammer summon spell, and now you want to be able to tank as well as warriors too? I guess having one of the few abilities that makes or breaks a raid isn't enough...

[EZ_Stren]

The solution to everything is just to give clerics Manaburn.

[EZ_Goradain]

You should be able to tank as good as the other 4 plate classes? How do you figure? Does that mean that casters should get the same defensive abilities as Monks? What about Bards? They can't Tank for crap and they are plate. In fact, there is Plate-class armor out there that all classes can wear. So by the same theory, shouldn't enchanters have the same defensive capabilities as Warriors or Paladins?

The short answer is no, Clerics should not have the same defensive abilities as Tanks. Period. Goradain - 58 Myrmidon of Rallos Zek
Proud member of Steel Thunder

[EZ_DarvReamin]

as a cleric, i would be happy with fd. well, evac and mb of course, but others already said that. backstab at lvl 55 would be nice too (not double backstab tho, that would be unbalanced).

clerics aren't necessary in pop. i see shammys hold a group down quite often. Gregan

[EZ_PalankaKarana]

I think we can take a beating better than shamans and dr00ds. Anyhow, when I'm in an exp group I don't just heal. I try to add value by casting MoK and MoR on each mob. If the group does so well that I am always fm, I nuke too. Only if the mobs we're fighting don't hit too hard do I summon my hammer and melee.

-- --
The Right Reverend Palanka, Th.D.
High Priest of Truth, Karana Server. Magelo Profile

[EZ_Amethysst]

OK since people only have negative things to say in general i will post a similar discussion i have been having on my guild board with a very negative person in the guild

Quote:
Now if you were to make clerics as good of tanks as warriors whose going to bitch about it? Everyone in the entire 3 tiers above you, thats who. Warriors definately dont want you to tank as well as they do. PAL, SHD, MNK, BRD, RNG, ROG all dont want you to out tank them since you shouldnt you arent a MELEE class. Lastly Beastlords are going to bitch because now they tank significantly worse than someone they used to be equal to.


This isnt what i asked - in no way can a cleric hold aggro to effectively tank any mob - increasing there ability to be able to tank damage as well as the other plate classes would only have the desired affect of keeping us alive that little bit longer (giving the warrior time to tank off of the aggroed cleric before they have to heal themselves and create new agro or die).

In no possible way can a cleric hold agro off of any other tanking class in the game, not through nuking melee or any other means (bar root but our hammer proc breaks root)

Quote:
Thats the structure verant set up and they arent going to change it for something as silly as cleric class wanting to be the best tanks in the game.


Again we dont want to be the best tanks in the game (currently in PoD every mob hits me for almost full damage per hit but for a warrior thats not the case [Uber raid mobs are a different ball game altogether] meaning in 8 -10 hits the average 60 cleric is almost dead from fully raid buffed) for the record i have 3800 hps when raid buffed

Quote:
Cleric complete heals are the most powerful thing in this game, giving clerics super defense makes healing more trivial than it already is.

Cleric CH aggro is already capped in this game at a really low value, so low in fact that any nuke cast in a raid has more than twice the hate given, cleric CH aggro at one time was equal to 1 aggro point per 1 HP gained, would you like to go back to that as a trade off because you are gaining warrior defensive abilities? Do you like the thought of casting 7k nukes oh at about the 4th second of a boss mob fight?


Cleric CH is the most powerful heal but i am not thinking about the CH in this instance - what i am looking at is the speed knights (not warriors) drop in HPs on mobs in the Planes - sometimes too fast for even a CH to save them so we use Ethereal Remedy which has MORE agro than CH and will immediately pull the mob off the knight and on to the cleric. Also Supernal Remedy (61 spell bought in PoK) has far more aggro - so much infact that it make the spell completely useless!

CH was recently reduced in effectiveness - it nolonger heals a warrior completely (caps at 7500hp heal) - Zabaz had about 8600hps when i last asked him

Quote:
Clerics are already balanced as it is with each of the priest classes and the entire game, it may not be fun, but its a hell of a lot more fun than being a bard trust me (The number of 60+ bards is about 1/10th of as much as 60+ clerics and there is a reason why).


Clerics are not balanced in comparision to other priest classes (look at the shaman > one cleric and one druid post which YOU posted!) as for it not being fun well why play a class if its not fun! like i said before i enjoyed the new lease of life yaulp 5 gave us but now thats gone - its like waving a red flag at a bull then lowering a cage over the beast so it cant move!

Bards are fun i have a 49 bard who i play "just for fun" ok i know in raids all you do is twist songs from start to finish with a small amount of melee but when raids are over you are free to do as you wish (solo, group since you can snare/slow/haste and do everything else to make a group work)

Yes there are alot of cleric 60+ but nearly all of them are played to 60 for the purpose of raids - when raids are over then the cleric goes back to there alt or the cleric logs on an alt and duel plays

Quote:
Oh and if you want a high block cap (monks key defensive ability, be prepared to kiss goodbye to something else really important to you like for instance celestial heals and fast casting heals) because block is the cornerstone of monk defense and the very thing that made them better tanks than warriors until just recently.


NO NO NO again - i didnt ask for a high block cap - "increasing clerics defensive abilities - increase defense, increase dodge, give us block " is what i asked may it be a low block cap or no block it matters little its just a suggestion put to verant so they dont think all we want is to be warriors with heals (NOTE i didnt ask for parry, riposte, double attack or any of the other class defining skills which make a warrior still stronger defensively and offensively)


To sum up-----------------------------------------------------------
Im not asking to be more offensive or to be able to solo 4 mobs at a time - all i see clerics gaining from this is the chance to be able to survive the average xp group in PoP without having to resort to using just CH EE and DA!

in most groups i have seen without a slower in PoP - tested in PoN, PoD(spiders and ratmen), PoV, and PoS - i have seen groups wipe out because the cleric heals too early and dies - i have also seen the same group wipe out because cleric heals too slow and main tank dies

there is a fine line between the two but with a slower present the cleric dies yet the group can survive the encounter - if its the other way round the group generaly wipes out!

clerics need to be able to survive being hit longer than they currently can but i cant see this happening without an increase in our defensive abilities

[EZ_Goradain]

So are you talking about Hit Points or Defense?

If youa re talking about Defense, do you mean Damage Mitigation or Damage Avoidance?

You aren't really being very clear on what you are wanting here. Defense is a very broad definition. You should narrow it down some.

Oh, and Clerics can hold aggro way better then any Warrior could dream of. Probably better than Paladins as well. DD+Stun spells will get any MoBs attention.

IMO, Clerics are just fine. I've fought alot in PoP zones. Even Warriors have a hard time staying alive there with no slower. MoBs hit hard and fast there. It's dangerous. Nobody said getting 2+ Blues an hour at 55+ should be easy. Even in a group without a slower I've rarely had problems with Clerics dying. You just have to get creative with your healing. I don't know how many Clerics I've had to preassure to use friggin MoK. Low mana cost, very high HP returns. MoK + Celestial Heal gives a tank a very long time to gain aggro before he needs a CH. MoK on a slowed MoB with Shissar and I can keep my own health almost topped off. Theres more to healing than just popping off a CH when the tank is at 2 bubbles. You just gotta use a bit of strategy. If you are getting aggro and dying everytime you pull a MoB, you need to rethink your healing strategy or your tank needs to rethink his weapon choices.

Many MoBs in the new planes hit as hard as HoT mobs. You can't expect to use traditional XP group tactics on them and survive.

Oh yea, as far as CH being reduced in effectiveness by the 7500 point cap, that's BS. Even the top tanks in the game rarely have that high. Possibly with the new levels and some new PoP gear it may be somewhat common, but I seriously doubt that you have ever capped out a CH. Even if a tank has 8600 HPs, you aren't witing until 0 HPs to heal him. Even with just 4800 HPs I'm rarely below 1000 before a CH lands. PoP MoBs can drop 1000 HPs easy in a single attack round if you get unlucky. Goradain - 58 Myrmidon of Rallos Zek
Proud member of Steel ThunderEdited by: Goradain at: 11/19/02 5:58:29 pm

[EZ_farmatyr1]

Seems a good solution is to give clerics slow or cripple. Probably cripple would be better overall, just because it won't be stepping on peoples feet as badly.

[EZ_trekrider2001]

Ok so if you give Clerics slow and/or cripple are you going to give shaman complete heal and rez?

Clerics are a priest class not a melee class. They specialize in healing spells and as such they shouldn't have defensive or offensive (melee) skills equal to a melee class.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

Cool a cleric that can tank? Find me one to duo with

If you are good at adapting you can easily go with less than perfect groups. Cleric melee boost was nice, so they can add more than healing. I cant see why they would need more.

Yes clerics are of 5 (not 4) plate classes. But they traditionally hvee no defensice skills, and rely solely on the armor to protect them. Their 'meatshield' rating seems fine to me. Ishwar - level 56 Barbarian Rogue - Emisaries of Dread - AB server

[EZ_Attla]

The opinions of Amethysst certainly don't represent the majority of us. As for not gaining aggro I would say the same thing as I tell every ranger/rogue/monk that's taking hits instead of the MT.....learn to control it.

I'm a little tired of hearing a few clerics who want more more more because they havent mastered the how/when/where to heal yet. And I am also a little tired of everyone treating PoP like another expansion, it's not just more zones for everyone to play in, it is more PLANAR zones for the skilled to extend their levels and equipment in.

If you can't make it in PoP with what you have, then you need not go....

Attla
High Priestess

[EZ_DISCOPOPE]

cleric tanking?........ sorry thats just dumb.
why does every class want to tank? just let the warriors and knights do the deal. find your nich and excell at it.
why suck marginally at everything? (pokes a pally in the ribs) oh, yeah, and Sethbor is my BIZNATCH.

[EZ_Nairek]

Clerics are the masters of healing though. I don't see druids or shamans healing for 12k hps!

In no way should clerics be able to substitute in for a paladin as a tank. Sure we're a plate class, but that doesn't mean we SHOULD tank. We're just a special class that can happen to wear plate armor, to follow the D&D tradition.


IMO clerics are fine as they are. Imagine the impact on PvP if a cleric were able to mitigate damage as well as a paladin or warrior. We'd be unstoppable!

[EZ_Shadowbladez]

Actually the argument to give clerics better defense is a good one... I am tired of playing a Rogue without the ability to FD, Cast chloroplast and Blessing of Aegolism... I could really use those upgrades - And I deserve them about as much as clerics deserve a higher defense...

Dream on about your "I-play-the-most-ubah-class-in-the-game-I-can-kill-anything-I-am-in-God-mode-class" and let the rest of us play EverQuest where you actually hit problems and difficulties that can be hard to solve, and get credit for solving them... God mode is for Doom players.

[EZ_Apollohades]

Some of you need to lay off the crack.

Or at least stick to using it on days that don't end in the letter Y.

Anyway, something of an issue that some clerics have is that we wear plate, yet have a dodge cap of 75 and no other mitigation/avoidance abilities without spending 24-48 points in AA. Even then, I wonder how useful that'd be since, (again for those who have the reading comprehension of bat poo), we have a dodge cap of 75.

Higher dodge cap? Possible. But instead, a little proof that AC means something would be nice. Stop hiding the actuality of what the numbers mean. Perhaps then people would stop asking for things they don't completely understand. (Consequently lowering the number of attempts at witty responses like most of those here.)

I can get my AC to 1300. Means nothing to me as a cleric. My job isn't to tank anyway. If I wanted to be a tank I'd make a paladin. *****
Archon of Triton, Povar
Profile: HERE
************
Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.

[EZ_Sancta Nox]

OK for a long time now clerics have simply just been there to make raids successful with there CH cycle - but in groups most people can live without a cleric. the same could be said about shamans and enchanters too - that was until PoP came out!

since PoP was released its been a case that if you didnt get a slower you pretty much didnt get a group going. shamans and enchanters are a must - almost as much as a cleric with one exception... with just a cleric and no slower the average number of deaths per mob increased tenfold!

Now most people seem to think as clerics being your typical roleplaying cleric arctype - healer, semi-melee, slayer of undead - but in EQ we have a more healer heavy side.

Some people have suggested during class balancing "increase our melee capabilities", "Give Clerics bash" (which i think suits), and "Increase our undead Nukes!". but they are all missing the key point that makes us better than shamans and druids as healers...

Clerics are a plate class (one of 4) and so we should be able to tank as good as them! Why? Because we are the lead healers - we are the ones who keep the main tank alive on Raids and in groups yet at the cost of possibly our own lives. We need to be able to take a beating just as well as the warrior so that the warrior has a chance to taunt back off of us (Not hope and pray the slower lands slow or the chanter manages to deagro you in time!).

So i suggest this to all clerics reading this - lets see if we can persuade verant to up our defensive abilities - to all clerics reading this i ask you to email verant and ask them to consider increasing clerics defensive abilities - increase defense, increase dodge, give us block (to compensate for the shields only obvious use as an offensive tool to interrupt casting) - to basically make us tanks without the damage output.

i dunno about the rest of you but im fed up with every time i CH just a second too soon, im hoping and praying i hit DA before i hit 0 hit points

--------------------------------
Venerable Amethysst [Stormhammer]
61 High Priest (Erudite) <Europa>



If you are dying so fast from healing maybe you need some equipment upgrades? I play main healer often (a little too often for my tastes) and when i get aggro its really no big deal.. just stand there and let the melee's get it off me... if its a rootable , Then just root it when you have aggro and move away.. just let the group know its rooted so they can make the necessary adjustments.
Sancta Nox

Level 63 Heirophant ~ Grandmaster Jeweler

Circle of Twilight
My Stuff

[EZ_tass the great]

the safehouse needs a "retard rickshaw" forum to move this too... There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

[EZ_A Mammal]

Personally, I think Clerics are good the way they are. Having played a cleric for 2 years.. Im glad we got the melee abilites. Watching the red bars gets old, but its your job. As a cleric you learn the people you play with. In pickup groups you have to adjust to people. Sometimes you will get groups with tanks that have BoC's and huge amounts of hps. Other times you will group with tanks that cant taunt and dont have hps. Basicly what makes a cleric a fun class is the ability you have to keep those with little hps alive and those with big hps alive. Giving us a huge Defense increase really wont hinder the healing, but as a healer pullin agro isnt something you should do. Basicly if you are pulling agro with ch even in places like PoV/PoS or any pop zone.. theres a few things that are happening..
1. Your tank isnt tanking. Or doesnt have the hps to properly establish agro before the ch hits. Its all about hate list.. clerics need not to be on the top of it.
2. Your Slower is puffin the ganja.. or his/her slow isnt hiting.. which if that is the case.. you will notice there hps droping fast. Gettin a slower to be number 2 on the hate list is a great thing. Means you can sit and med and watch the red bars.
3. You are ch'ing to early. ch'n at 60% (the spell hits the melee when they have 60% of there hps left) isnt enuff time for the tank to get 2 taunts in, by this percentage most of the time in pop zones/also ct a chanter/shaman has only begun to tash or malo.. which means they arent on the list yet. of course if tash is resisted a chanter is always going to be top of the list, same for slow on a shaman. Over nukers have the same affect.

So what im saying is if your having a problem pulling agro rethink the way you heal. Elixers are a great line of spells.. use them. If you have to Super/Celestrial Elixer a tank as the mob comes in then ch him.. its no big deal.. sure your wasteing mana.. but think how much mana you saved trying to heal yourself from top list agro. Also when you ch a MT dont sit right off. Use Yaulp.. hit Yaulp 5 let it pump 2 ticks then sit. Really even with sucky tanks a cleric should never pull agro off a tank unless he wants to. On classes like a chanter/shaman you are forced to pull agro from them. Theres no way around it.. you will have to blast heal them and it will hurt.. but thats the joys of the class.. your over heal will get the mob off them and allow them to slow/tash/do whatever.. this type of agro is easy for a tank to pull off.. normally in pop zones.. if a slow is resisted.. a cleric will blast Supernatural remedy or any fast high hp heal the mob will come to you get maybe a hit off then the slow will hit and the tank will have agro by the time all this happens. Of course there are situations where that doesnt always happen.. and for those i suggest gettin some aa points.
Natural Durability for more hps..
Combat stab..
Combat Agi..
Channeling Focus..
People have this thing with having better gear.. really gear doesnt matter its a play toy something pretty to wear.. ive seen clerics in full seb scale do just fine in places like pop/ct its great to have alot of mana and hit points but truely it comes down to skill. ive seen clerics in some of the sweetest gear you can get wipe there groups in places craply geared clerics can rule. Ive seen 33 craply geared people 55 to 60 take sonty in ww.. its all about connection and skill.. while gear is nice it doesnt mean everything. Anyway /speach off..
Really uping Defense doesnt matter unless you want to solo super exp mobs... Best i have ever pulled off recently is slowing ent mobs in Ct, but thats at lvl 63.. you will be amazed how just those aa i mentioned above help you as a cleric in solo situations.. in groups you should do your job, pulling agro isnt it...
And i hate to go against another cleric on this.. but i have to agree with the flamers.. give us mana burn... duel weild.. charm.. etc..
I think giving us increased defense,dodge, and block.. will only help the solo clerics..causeing a trimmer in the force..
Thats just what i think.. doesnt really matter..

Laters
Your Basic
Mamael

[EZ_Crazy Lowfyr Wildforge]

HAHAHHAHAH

Dood, Clerics DO have good defenses. You just have suck gear and AA.

xxoo,

Lowfyr Wildforge
65 Cleric Vazaelle
Magelo Profile: 120905 <A HREF="http://brunching.com/toys/cyborger.html"><IMG SRC="http://www.brunching.com/cybimages/L/cyb-LOWFYR.gif" WIDTH=240 HEIGHT=150 ALT="Lifelike Obedient Worker Fabricated for Yardwork and Repair" BORDER=0></A>

[EZ_AsturiasAurora]

No one heals as well as a cleric.....not shammies, not druids. Even if druids get CH, it's a slower cast than the cleric CH's (from what I've been told...don't quote me). A cleric's role is to keep the tanks alive by 'praying' to their gods for heals and marginal attacks by calling down their god's wrath. No, cleric does NOT equal one-stop bandaid-shop, but let's be serious, I have a 55 monk who is out-damaged already by clerics using that Summon Hammer spell of there (the 14/18 one with the 150 proc that seems to go off 90% of the time). I presonally think that's just silly.

There's no reason there should be a battle cleric anymore than they already are. If you're having issues with staying alive because of your ill-timed CH's, time them better, or get the warriors to /shield you. That's one of the primary reasons warriors got that skill recently.

IMO, clerics are already pretty damn uber. Not only do they get plate armor (pure ac), but they also get the best line of ac buff spells in the game (which they CAN use on themselves) and now they even get pets and other summonable 1hb's that completely offset other class dmg-outputs. Add with that the fact that they practically have a 'push HERE for Ragefire' ability in Skyfire with those shards and you start to see how, like the rest of us, clerics are becoming a bit to big for their own good.

ALL classes need defense boosts, true. ALL classes need mitigation boosts, true. ALL classes need utility abilities (FD, Hide/Sneak, SoW, etc.) but are they gonna get it? No. Quit trying to demand clearly out-balancing abilities. How you PLAY your character will define how fast you die or not.

Coins Malone - 53 Epic'd Garden Tool
Asturias Aurora - 55 Master
Ventagge Wyldfyre - 51 Everlost Ranger

-Officer of Night Wolves
--EQ, Fennin Ro--

------------------

Sveltt Ironhand - 35 Thane
--DAoC, Merlin-
Center - 10 Nightshade
--DAoC, Tristan-

[EZ_Sancta Nox]

No one heals as well as a cleric.....not shammies, not druids. Even if druids get CH, it's a slower cast than the cleric CH's (from what I've been told...don't quote me). A cleric's role is to keep the tanks alive by 'praying' to their gods for heals and marginal attacks by calling down their god's wrath. No, cleric does NOT equal one-stop bandaid-shop, but let's be serious, I have a 55 monk who is out-damaged already by clerics using that Summon Hammer spell of there (the 14/18 one with the 150 proc that seems to go off 90% of the time). I presonally think that's just silly.

There's no reason there should be a battle cleric anymore than they already are. If you're having issues with staying alive because of your ill-timed CH's, time them better, or get the warriors to /shield you. That's one of the primary reasons warriors got that skill recently.

IMO, clerics are already pretty damn uber. Not only do they get plate armor (pure ac), but they also get the best line of ac buff spells in the game (which they CAN use on themselves) and now they even get pets and other summonable 1hb's that completely offset other class dmg-outputs. Add with that the fact that they practically have a 'push HERE for Ragefire' ability in Skyfire with those shards and you start to see how, like the rest of us, clerics are becoming a bit to big for their own good.

ALL classes need defense boosts, true. ALL classes need mitigation boosts, true. ALL classes need utility abilities (FD, Hide/Sneak, SoW, etc.) but are they gonna get it? No. Quit trying to demand clearly out-balancing abilities. How you PLAY your character will define how fast you die or not.


Coins Malone - 53 Epic'd Garden Tool
Asturias Aurora - 55 Master
Ventagge Wyldfyre - 51 Everlost Ranger


Actually the druid CH is the exact same cast time as the cleric CH. The diff is that the druid CH caps at 3k hps healed and the cleric is capped at 7500. Also a cleric can get a crit heal with CH where a druid cannot. As a druid I CAN play healer but a cleric can do it MUCH better than I can.


Sancta Nox

Level 63 Heirophant ~ Grandmaster Jeweler

Circle of Twilight
My Stuff

[EZ_impudent]

I am going to cut & paste all of the comments on the points i will address.

I do not post here often, so forgive me if I get asked a question and do not respond timely.

1) I CAN pull agro from other tanks, although well played paly's and sk's I have a harder time with. It is just a matter to KNOWING what your spells can do

2) As a Cleric, with maxed offense and defense, I do NOT want to be tank, although I can if slowed

3) Healing agro on the upper tier mobs was flawed, thus clerics dropped like flies for even casting CE's, rigth after it landed.

4) In the tier 1 planes, I agree, a cleric is NOT needed if you have a well played shaman, druid also.. but not near as effective.

5) I like that Binary comment ;P Baron Impudent Blasphemy
Lvl 61 High Priest
Protector of the Water Sprinkler of Nem Ankh
Quellious Server

[EZ_Sabbik Silvertongue]

As a cleric hunting in the planes, in the low to mid 50's... I don't have much trouble gaining aggro. I time heals well, and yes we usually have a slower in the group. The reason why I don't die I attribute to these circumstances: My main tank is level 60ish. Clerics always had the luxury of grouping far below the groups' average level because your tank never resists a cheal. In the event I've not had a high level tank with me... I've done well with beastlords or paladins or sk's tanking, because they can use their spells to keep aggro.

It's all about waiting till the last second on that first heal. If there are two mobs, and you don't have a slower or two tanks to split the pull... you will get eaten instantly. That's life. Someone said that if you can't survive hunting in the planes as a cleric, well... you are doing something wrong. I agree with that statement. You suck, go back to guk.

The summoned hammer kicks ass I admit... but you miss most of the time with it on tough mobs cause 1hb skill caps at 175. Maybe 25% of the time it procs. you do more damage from the proc than from your hits, unless the foe is undead. I don't get up to play whack-a-mole with a hammer unless there is a second cleric in our group, or it's a duoing type situation where we're hunting easier hitting mobs

Someone said something about having pets... our pet costs 250 mana, and lasts for one monster and that's it. They are good for big encounters to add extra damage. other than that they are a toy imho.

I think the main problem here is that people think they should have an easy time hunting the planes with a mid to low 50's group. That's just plain foolish.

Sabbik

[EZ_BaysarFK]

Quote:I have a 55 monk who is out-damaged already by clerics using that Summon Hammer spell of there (the 14/18 one with the 150 proc that seems to go off 90% of the time). I presonally think that's just silly.

Ok thats it, I can't take it anymore. I am sick and fawking tired of seeing this drivel. I am a 64 cleric, I have the lvl 60 hammer (Hammer of Souls, arguably the same power as the pre-nerf lvl 56 hammer). If I am able to get the shaman to crack me out with avatar/dex, I can hit my 275 dex cap, and my hammer procs approx 1 in 5 swings, maybe less. The proc is random 70-150 damage, so averaging it out that is 110 damage every 5 rounds. Add in the actual melee damage - negligible even against undead (my best hit on a skeleton is 100, I get about one of these max hits per hour?). Maybe it adds up, with bash, to 140 damage every 5 rounds, tops. I don't know how 18 delay translates to rounds/second, but if you do it's not hard to do the math. I know it's not more than 30-40dps.

So you are telling me that at level 64, with over 1200 atk buffed, with a level 60 spell that can only be obtained off of luclin boss mobs, with 275 str/dex, I outdamage a monk 9 levels below me with most likely kunark class weapons and no epic? Oh call out the nerf squad guys, the world is inverted. I have yet to see a legitimate parse study show that a cleric outdamaged any monks, paladins, etc with even remotely comparable gear. It's all hearsay. Silence me with facts, please.

Anyway on topic, I don't think clerics are that bad off. I do think that any class whose solo ability involved mitigating melee damage is no longer a soloing class in PoP, and that is a shame. But paladins got screwed just as bad as we did there so I cannot complain about the plight of clerics.

I do think any class that can wield a shield, should get at least some mediocre level of block skill, just due to the concept of "hey I'll hold up my shield next time he swings at me, that's a novel idea". Seriously. Cap it much higher for knights, due to their implied combat expertise. Cap it lower for druids/shamen, due to their armor class. Cap it even lower for int casters.


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Baysar
High Priest of Brell
Owner of all OrcsEdited by: BaysarFK at: 1/2/03 8:39:54 am

[EZ_Canarya]

1. I'm a cleric

2. The original poster is not our damn spokesperson, ignore that "we" he used.

3. Paladins are one of the masters of gaining agro. Why? Their spells. Where do they get their spells from? Errr.... clerics... Stuns are huge agro, try it some time if you want to gain agro. If I could tank anywhere near as well as a warrior why would you ever need a tank?

4. From logs I've read by clerics with the level 63 hammer they can get about 35-40 dps using all the spells (pet, MoR) that's close enough to paladins that if we could tank as well as they can it would spell the death of the class.

5. Is your post a troll?

[EZ_Moffon Furryhealer]

(For the record I don't care either way but I thought I'd post my opinion)

You guys shouldn't get all over this guy for wanting higher defense, it's not like anyone thinks a cleric will start being a main tank in a group. What group in their right mind is going to get a cleric just to hold agro, and have to get another healer to heal the cleric. Clerics do not add any sort of uber DPS, especially when they are meleeing (even with the hammer, no double attack no duel wield makes us useless even with the summoned hammer). We have one purpose in a group and that is to heal, the point of this post is that because healing is such a dangerous job and because we wear some of the same armor as the ones taking the main damage, we should be able to take that damage almost as well as them. Some of you are responding like you expect clerics to start becomming tank mezzers at emp raids or something. I've played a cleric since 99 and I've gotten the crap beaten out of me more times than I can remember. A little extra defense to help me not die so quickly before the tank can pull it off would be nice. I'm not saying I want to start a petition to make it happen because I don't care that much, but don't knock this guy for making a post about it.

Moffon

[EZ_Hinobi]

Quote:As a paladin im already pissed that clerics can come within a few dps of a well equiped paladin just by buying a hammer summon spell, and now you want to be able to tank as well as warriors too? I guess having one of the few abilities that makes or breaks a raid isn't enough...

Umm, whatever you say, with full attack buffs (Avatar, Max Str, Max Dex, Ranger Buffs, Speed of Vallon, etc) I can get a maximum of 25-30dps or so on a mob that doesn't have high damage mitigation. I can easily nuke for more dps than that, and cleric nukes aren't very efficient. The highest I've ever seen a cleric get (Extreme End Game Gear) is mid 30s.

Paladins aren't meant to do high DPS, they are tank classes, and on top of that, they can heal nearly as good as a druid or shaman (Although they do have less mana unless they have End Game gear). But even though they aren't supposed to do high dps, they do WAY more than cleric can ever do, and they can hold aggro far superior of a Warrior. One stun on the incoming and the mob can be fully debuffed before it even hits the Paladin.

Edit: Yes, I have parsed myself and other clerics... Venerable Hinobi Fizzlefoot -- Hobbit Archon
Reviction -- Morell-ThuleEdited by: Hinobi at: 1/12/03 8:17:53 pm

[EZ_Dading001]

only 30 DPS? i've hit for like 70 or 80 against undead at level 56, with crappy atk, my str is probably 130ish... and with 160 procs on top of that... thats not calculating in your pet... with haste you hit pretty damn fast... and can bash upwards to 50... mind you it's only one hit instead of two... but 30dps seems a bit low for extreme high end clerics...


[edit] all numbers are rounded, and guesstimates, thank you Edited by: Dading001 at: 1/12/03 8:32:01 pm

[EZ_Hinobi]

But how often do you hit for 70+ damage? Against mobs that actually have AC and Damage Mitigation, you're lucky to hit for more than 20, if at all. And the hammer pet does next to no damage, it's calculated into the overall DPS, along with hammer procs in my parsings and the parsings I've read from very well equipped clerics.

Edit: I can get near or over 1400atk and my level 60 hammer still procs one in five times (with max dex) and I'm lucky to hit for over 20 against mobs, ESPECIALLY mobs involved in raiding or Luclin mobs.

Edit Again: Also, the hammer cannot proc for 160 damage, get your facts straight. Venerable Hinobi Fizzlefoot -- Hobbit Archon
Reviction -- Morell-ThuleEdited by: Hinobi at: 1/12/03 8:09:03 pm

[EZ_Hinobi]

By the way, I wasn't supporting or opposing the idea of increasing cleric damage mitigation and avoidance etc. I just wanted to state the first hand facts about the cleric dps comment, because I'm so sick of everything thinking we are overpowered with our dinky little hammer. Venerable Hinobi Fizzlefoot -- Hobbit Archon
Reviction -- Morell-Thule

[EZ_beastmaze]

". What group in their right mind is going to get a cleric just to hold agro, and have to get another healer to heal the cleric. Clerics do not add any sort of uber DPS, especially when they are meleeing"
Hrm sorry but warrior don't get much DPS either when they tank, so getting a cleric that can tank will not be such a bad idea, cleric tank &buff and a cleric will be able to get more agro then paladin due to haveing more mana for stuns (higher mana regen).
And for those of you that say, i as a cleric get hit from time to time and die, that's why i need higher defence i say, i as a quader get hit from time to time so i need to be plate user in order to stay in life when quad goes bad.


realy cleric are good as they are, and so are druids (well charm need to be fixed but thats out of the point) please don't ask SoE to fix things it take months and months to get the things working after SoE try to fix something Beasthealer druid 60<BR>
darkmoon

[EZ_Moffon Furryhealer]

"And for those of you that say, i as a cleric get hit from time to time and die, that's why i need higher defence i say, i as a quader get hit from time to time so i need to be plate user in order to stay in life when quad goes bad."

That really is the most rediculous arguement I ever heard. You see quading isn't your only option, grouping is pretty much our only option (soloing is a rediculous waste of time unless u just like being alone). In a group we heal, when you heal you get agro and you get hit on. Simple as that. A nuker should never get agro (and wizards get spells that help them with this even), he shouldn't get beat on. I have to heal someone or they die, and I have to do it early. Nukers get the luxury of waiting until the tank has good agro to start in, I don't get that luxury 'cuz the tank will die.

"Hrm sorry but warrior don't get much DPS either when they tank, so getting a cleric that can tank will not be such a bad idea, cleric tank &buff and a cleric will be able to get more agro then paladin due to haveing more mana for stuns (higher mana regen)."

Warriors get better DPS than I do...and nobody is asking for warrior defensive skills. If a cleric is tanking when is he going to med? If a cleric is tanking then you gotta get another class to heal the cleric. That just isn't efficient. Any class that can tank well right now gets higher DPS than a cleric, and I'm not even saying we should be able to tank even as well as them. Like I said before I think clerics are fine the way they are, but your arguement is just too rediculous not to respond to.

Moffon <IMG SRC="http://moffon.homestead.com/files/weedmarket.gif" BORDER=0">

[EZ_Moffon Furryhealer]

"only 30 DPS? i've hit for like 70 or 80 against undead at level 56, with crappy atk, my str is probably 130ish... and with 160 procs on top of that... thats not calculating in your pet... with haste you hit pretty damn fast... and can bash upwards to 50... mind you it's only one hit instead of two... but 30dps seems a bit low for extreme high end clerics..."

With avatar and shaman buffs and speed I still miss most of the hits, so that throws out your "we can hit high now!" arguement. Bash is ok but we don't do it often enough for it to make a huge difference. Pets may not die as often as they used to but they still suck (trust me I put me pet on the PoD and ran around rivervale for an hour and a half before he died..I was bored and I wanted the staff for a few minutes!). The proc isn't for 160, on average its around 110...and usually mine float at around 90. Now lets say you do proc for 1 in 5 hits and you get 110 dmg proc. You've probably missed 3 of those hits, and the two you got were for around 25. So thats 160 dmg in 5 swings. You think melees only hit for 160 in 5 swings? Not counting procs they might have on their weps I'd say you average melee does over 33 dmg per swing in 5 swings...and that's not counting if they are duel wielding. So don't give me that crap about coming close to melees in damage, because we won't ever. And most clerics that group in pop don't really have much time to play with their toys because mobs hit so hard if a pull goes bad or a mob is pingponged you gotta react fast. Don't use our melee skills (or lack thereof) as an arguement against us. It was merely one of the easier things to change that clerics asked for in their class ballancing (I mean really, of all the good things we asked for we got the fun ones...bash/TP idol to home city/better melee skills. I'm still waiting for my invis damnit!).

Moffon

[EZ_Jeska Warpriest]

1. Get AA
2. Get Equipment
3. Refer to how to play cleric 101
4. repeat as needed

[EZ_Melodie Songbird]

WHAT CLERICS NEEEEEED IS 75% LURE SLOW SO THEY ARE UBER SOLO LIKE SHAMMY... um yea ok

[EZ_Moffon Furryhealer]

Don't try to shoot down anyone's arguement with your sarcasm involving something super rediculous as 75% lure slow. As I've said giving us higher defense skills wouldn't make us anymore desired in groups than we already are. Shamans are more desireable than us in groups because they combine slow/crapspeed with decent heals/buffs. Druids get decent heals and decent damage spells, can also have minor roll in group with a dire charmed pet (where applicable). All the posters are saying is that since we are technically a plate class (and since some people have sarcastically said that theres some armor that looks plate druids/shaman can wear let's go with those classes that back in the day could use the fine plate armor or crap even bronze armor) that we should have the defense skills are at least close too that of plate wearing classes.

There is no logical reasoning that a rogue should be able to tank better than a cleric. Here's my reasoning why:

1) Clerics wear heavier armor than rogues, this should mean if they get hit it should be absorbed by the armor better.

2) An arguement could be made that since clerics aren't made to take the main damage they shouldn't be used to it and shouldn't have the same defense as one. You would be right and nobody expects clerics to come close to warriors or knights. But the same arguement could be said that since rogues are supposed to be sneaky and not get agro (they gave u evade for that purpose) ,and hell they are even supposed to attack from the back where they don't even get riposte smacks, that rogues shouldn't be able to tank even semi-decently. Not saying rogues are great tanks by any means, but I've personally witnissed rogues tank things when neccessary...and much better than a cleric could hope too. I even remember a raid a long time ago where a rogue ended up tanking Vindi for over half the time because the warrior went down and another couldn't gain agro.

Not saying that I really really want higher damage, I barely even play lately from a combination of work/school/women. I just like to argue and I think the original poster presented a great arguement that nobody has successfully shot down, most of the responses are sarcastic with no valid points at all. Cleric gaining a little better defense skills would affect nobody else except that your raid might not get whiped out if a cleric gets taken out because they wouldn't go down so fast and could get that DA off or healed up.

Moffon

[EZ_beastmaze]

Moffon the term melee ring any bell?
if it don't go check somewhere then come back and check and see that rogue are indeed pure melee along with war&monk so yes that mean they put more focus on melee and should be able to tank batter then cleric and that both rogue and cleric should do much worse in that area then war.
Beasthealer druid 65
darkmoon

[EZ_Alvret Tassadar]

If your main tank isn't the puller use a HOT spell on the tank just before he/she goes in for agro which should be right near the group anyways, they arent on the hate list yet. As a paladin mt in pop I have used celestial cleansing on myself many times for stun immune mobs (seem to be more and more these days) so that I gain good agro from the mobs, I use this after the agro switch from puller to me or while waiting for my pull to arrive if your mt is a pally ask them to do this.

Warriors have shield, paladins have stun,shadowknights have dots,rangers cant tank (hehe) all have taunt. If you find yourself dying in POP groups alot sounds like there is another problem and only you can figure that one out, as every tank class can upgrade their position on the hate list fairly well at present and or protect/heal you.

I can see you dying in a raid scenario, but that is expected. I wouldn't like to see people not enjoying the game but also I do not see the wisdom in every class wanting another classes abilities. If you are going to constantly blurr the line between you might as well just erase it, lets try fighting the mobs with the weapons and skill/strategy we have at our disposal and stop fighting each other with envy.

This does sound like a thinly veiled attempt at becoming an even better soloing class now that the dps clerics can put out has increased. This is game is supposed to be about adventure and group strategies and seems more enjoyable when those are at the forefront.

Alvret Tassadar
Paladin of 59 crusades

[EZ_Hinobi]

Why is it always Paladins thinking we do good dps? With the exception of a few well equipped Enchanters, Paladins are probably the most overpowered class in the game currently. My Paladin friends admit it themselves. They can come close to the amount of HP/AC as a warrior, they can hold better agro, they can do basic crowd control with fast casting roots, they can interrupt spells far more efficiently than any other melee class, and they can heal in a pinch (And even heal pretty well with the right spells).

Clerics don't need that much really, a bit of a defensive boost, and some real healing superiority over druids/shamans and I think we'd be fine.

And besides, gains for a class you commonly group with are gains for you as well. I group with Paladins all the time, and well I know they are overpowered, I'm not complaining. Venerable Hinobi Fizzlefoot -- Hobbit Archon
Reviction -- Morell-Thule

[EZ_beastmaze]

"Paladins are probably the most overpowered class"
OMG i almost died from this Beasthealer druid 65
darkmoon

[EZ_DISCOPOPE]

Quote: "Paladins are probably the most overpowered class"
OMG i almost died from this

same here.. ....funny, it was us that wanted to buy a caravan off of him..

[EZ_Ishwar2]

"since PoP was released its been a case that if you didnt get a slower you pretty much didnt get a group going. shamans and enchanters are a must - almost as much as a cleric with one exception... with just a cleric and no slower the average number of deaths per mob increased tenfold!"

The entire argument that clerics need more is flawed. A group with a chanter and no healer is NOT going to be killing anything a group with a cleric and no chanter can kill. A group with just a shaman, both healing and slowing, may work, but it is very mana consuming. Not to mention that even if a group with a cleric have 10 times as many deathe, they still spend less time recovering from those deaths, than a group with no one to rez.

Every group still needs a healer, and clerics still out heal any other class.

Yes slowers seems more required than they used to, but that does not affect healers ability to group. If anything, a very good tank/cleric pair, can make up for no healer, so compared to pre-PoP cleric have more of a healing edge over druids than they used to. Ishwar - level 58 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith - VS server

[EZ_Braid]

You should be comparing cleric mitigation with that of a monk/rogue/whatever, instead of comparing it to monk/rogue/whatever mitigation+avoidance.

A rogue should not take hits as well as a cleric, but a cleric should not avoid as much as a rogue.