POP and Solo exp

[EZ_Quiet]

There have been many a post in this board and others complaining about PoP and what has happened to the game. In a sense this post is like that, but from a different perspective. I am going to try to present an idea I have been arriving at the past few months as I watch friends lose enjoyment of the game... and why I think it has happened. Please bear with me on this post as I am going to present some overly simplified history of the game, and finally present my observation of the problem, and a proposed solution or two.

Problem : Where it was generally possible to hunt in EQ without a group, getting experience (reasonable level) and/or loot (reasonable level), with the advent of PoP, it is nearly impossible for anyone to solo.

Lets first make sure my observation is correct... There might be a few classes where solo ability is reasonable. Some have pointed out the high level enchanters and bards that can charm solo high level PoP mobs. However, VI is trying hard to stamp those out. In fact, the developers have always mentioned that they prefer groups over individuals.

History

Starting with the Kunark era... Level 60, no aa's.

There were a few classes that could solo, but most classes could only solo with very high end loot. But, once you reached 60, the only reason to exp was to deal with death losses. So... the high end game revolved around getting the best loot because it allowed you to solo, and was the only game in town.

Velious era... Level 60, no aa's

Mobs are harder. Without the higher end loot possible in raids and raiding guilds, many classes were hard pressed to solo. But the flavor of the game was basically the same - once you reached 60 you were done with exp so could ignore that aspect.

Luclin era... Level 60, aa's!

Now there is a reason to get more exp. But, those in uber guilds can still have enough equipment to make this possible, even if the exp is in velious or kunark zones. Course this means the good exp for level 60's are heavily camped now with solo'ers. This choakes out others... and is perceived to be a big problem.

PoP era... Level 65, aa's and more aa's.

Wow - now there is really a reason to exp, more levels, more exp and the mobs give great exp. Everything is fine, exp going up faster than people can count. AAs going up faster than people can count. Nobody can solo (yes a few exceptions) but the exp flows so fast in a group nobody wants to rock the boat.

---

Ok here is my boat rock. I have been playing on-line RPGs for over 20 years. In addition, I was involved in the design phases for a couple of RPGs. (As far as I know none of them got off the ground.) From this, I see one common theme with game developers. It is desirable from a game development point of view to force people into groups rather than let them solo their way up the ladder.

You will see many discussions on this if you get into the e-mail ring of MUDDEV.. but the points usually involve some variation of:

1. If they can solo they will not interact with others in the game. (My point - so what?)
2. If they can solo, then some folks will quickly exhaust all the material because they will play 24/7 til they "solve" the game. (yes - you will lose money on those folks.)
3. People will get upset because someone played 24/7, gets to the highest level, and nobody knows them. (yes - self policing)
4. Too many soloers make it difficult to balance game design areas. Good solo spots will get crowded, and some classees will be strongly favored against less well rounded classes. (Notice both of these are saying "It is too hard to design a game to fit the players so we will fit the players to the game.")

Game design is a pain in the tail. Frankly, nobody gets it all correct. EQ by its success has clearly demonstrated success.... but as I pointed out in the history... that is in part because those who felt they "won the game" were then introduced into a new game "uber raiding" which demanded a large amount of their time. This is still true... but what got lost?

I have a good friend in an Uber raiding guild on my server. He used to relax after 10 hours of raiding by going somewhere and farming loot for friends (or twinks), or when aa's came out he would go out and farm exp - dispite the fact that he was bored with it, it needed to be done, so when he could he fit it in.

Now? Well, now he is level 65, and the only way he can just kick back and get exp is to find a healer, and a slower. Now he can't just kick back and relax, he has to find others. Not just others, but the RIGHT others! Tossing in the right others even have to have one or two of the flags... and basicly what was boring work is now a PITA.

Between RPGs I spent a fair amount of time playing Diablo. It offers a nice comparison. D1 allowed small groups, but things could be handled by a well equiped and careful individual. D2 came out and really was much the same. Ahh but the GamDev team saw too many people "win the game" and started adding immune (melee immune or magic immune) mobs to the levels. It was no longer possible to "win the game" alone. Then of course, they continued to nerf the core abilities when people found ways of doing the end game with small groups of one or two. Guess what? Maybe D2 did fine (I assume so) but many people left because it was no longer fun.

Sometimes, you just want to go out and bash mobs that give something back for your time. This really means, experience. But, the developers have succeeded in their goal of making this nearly impossible with PoP. I think they may have won the battle and lost the war.

Solutions: Go ahead and expand the blue zone for exp. Yes this means velks will be crowded again, but lets be honest, the exp from pop mobs still kicks tail from the spiders in Velks, so there is already a strong encouragment to hunt in pop if you are 65.

Accept that solo is a good thing, not an evil. Make it hard. Make it so hard, that to get the equipment to solo requires regular raids.

Edited by: Quiet at: 2/10/03 12:40:35 am

[EZ_Dading001]

that screws over casual players than cant easily find a group then (your last line)

"I have been playing on-line RPGs for over 40 years."

Wtf, have computers even been around this long?...

[EZ_Salgurdar]

I don't believe that soloing is an evil thing. But Everquest has always been about teaming up with other people to make up for weaknesses in your class. I can remember a day in which it was unheard of to solo beyond level 20. Then people started to formulate strategies for soloing, like standing on the wizzy spires in NK and nuking giants. VI put a stop to this by introducing the z-axis nerf. Necros later became gods of soloing, but balancing soon ended that, with the introduction of reduced xp gains from particular hunting strategies. VI does everything in it's power to stop players from easily soloing, because thier concept of the game is based around teamwork. When PoP was released, it was touted as being the expansion that change all strategies, and through various nerfs and game mechanic changes this has proven true, people have had to come up with new strategies to conquer various encounters. I don't think that rocket propelled grenade launchers are evil either, but I most certainly don't want them to show up as loot in EQ.

Quote:Luclin era... Level 60, aa's!

Now there is a reason to get more exp. But, those in uber guilds can still have enough equipment to make this possible, even if the exp is in velious or kunark zones. Course this means the good exp for level 60's are heavily camped now with solo'ers. This choakes out others... and is perceived to be a big problem.


I'm not sure if you realise this, but that's an argument AGAINST soloing.

Now I don't have 40 years experience in online RPG's (not that I consider EQ to be in anyway an RPG, and I'm surprised to hear that there were online RPG's in the 1960's let alone the internet/BBS being around in those days, come to think of it, I thought it wasn't until the late 70's that home computers were around. But that's another argument), but I have played most of the more popular graphic based online multi-player games that are around, ie. AC, DAoC, UO, EQ, you throw in Diablo/Diablo 2 (fairly enough imo), but then I can include Battlefield 1942, Day of Defeat and Counter Strike. Out of all those games, I can only see 2 inwhich you can truly solo, Asheron's Call and Diablo. And both of these games suffer badly because of that fact. Asheron's Call will be the example I will use, because it sits most closely with EQ. You can solo in AC, you can also group (called fellowshiping). Soloing isn't as easy as joining a fellowship, you need to make what is known as an "extreme" character to be a really successful soloer. This means that in your early life, you have 1 particular area that makes you terribly weak, whether is be low starting hps or low damage avoidance/mitigation (my extreme character had 5 hps at level 1). But almost everyone that played the game solo'd, no matter how tuogh it was. Grouping wasn't an option, why work to form a group. You just put up with difficulties in the beginning to reap the rewards much later in life (at around level 80-100). I think the problem isn't that you can't solo in EQ, the problem is that it's getting very hard for particular classes to get groups, and the need for particular classes is too great (ie. slower, healer). This is what needs to be addessed I think, the utility of existing classes. Not the need to solo.
Stealthily ripping the scalps off orc's heads for 62 seasons!
"I may be stupid, but I can lift heavy stuff!"

Magelo Profile

[EZ_Quiet]

Ooops thanks for the catch on 40 years- should have been 20 - corrected. (Blush)

Quote:that screws over casual players than cant easily find a group then (your last line)

I agree... to an extent. The problems of crowding are always a problem. Also, how do you reward those who spend the time to group (or multi-group raid). If everyone can solo, as Salgurdar points out everyone will solo (and now my add) but only if grouping doesn't give them more, much more.

Quote:I think the problem isn't that you can't solo in EQ, the problem is that it's getting very hard for particular classes to get groups, and the need for particular classes is too great (ie. slower, healer).

Frankly, I agree. Problem is even with great utility, a warrior will never be able to solo like a ranger. Rangers have various get out of trouble spells, and healing spells. Healing classes, even hybrid healing classes have advantages in solo. In a group, the healers and the slowers are way too important. But to remove their need, will also increase the ability for everyone to solo.

I am of the opinion that the game designers for EQ tried their best to create tough mobs that needed a group to kill. They had tried the "lots of hit points" mobs in previous expansions and that didn't work. They tried "lots of resists or melee resists" and that didn't work. So now they try high damage output with moderate to low hitpoints. This mandates a healer (and slower) even more than before. But... how do you create a mob that can challenge a single balance group without making it easy for a soloer to do the same?

My point is that the game designers did the best they could with their goals : groups good, solo bad. If they accepted that solo is good (under some situations) they could ease up and we might find mobs that didn't need a slower and a fast healer.

By the way - again sorry about the typo on 40.. meant 20... First Online RPG I played was Gemstone. Text based, and I played it from a Mac. (Paid $3/hour to play in off hours too It still exists and isn't a bad game.

[EZ_Kilaara]

Hm thats one side of the medaillon.

But see the other side.

In all other expansions you could go out with a group and make some exp and grab some loot. In Sebi you had a chance for some haste Items from roamers and random unnamed mobs ( cloak and belt ). In Sebi you had a chance on some Named mobs which dropped some nice parts ( usually 3 different parts per mob 1 part dropping ). Or you made some money with some blue diamonds ..

That was a bit of ... " oh.... what will he drop today " ... or when fighting a Krup knight ... "Hm maybe were lucky and could find a RBG in the Corpse " .......

Today in PoP... Tier 2 ,,,,,,, go out with a group ..... boring hitting mobs ... crappy loot not worth to pick it up .... oh one Liquid in PoV in some hours ... and for the non Melee a parch or two.... Thats it... Hm youre missing something? Yeah where are the random useful drops ... where are the named which have some nice and some crappy parts in their loot table ?

You pull a named in CoD and know what the drop is cause all of group already had one today and it will rott ... Heya what funny

Playing a game for fun ...but how to have fun with this?

Da Basherle
Kilaara Drachenfliege
Drachentänzer
Solusek Ro

[EZ_IumunoRN]

I have somewhat similar feelings but maybe it's because I am just an old jaded EQ player.

I usually don't grind just for experience. I used to group with friends doing exciting content for fun, in the revamped CT or similar areas. Just the prospect of loot and seeing named and breaking difficult camps was fun. PoP is like a huge wasteland, and the zones that do have named drop Sebilis quality loot.

Once you have seen the zone or for the first time, it's not an adventure anymore. It's killing the same boring mobs over and over for no reason other than to get some experience.

Pre PoP if you just wanted xp, you could just grab some friends and there was always a spot somewhere where you could get decent experience. Now unless you do a charmed based group you need strong damage mitigation, just like you used to need to take on the tougher xp spots before PoP.

Except now the groups are a PITA to make, in order to grind in boring areas. I used to start my own group all the time - not anymore. It's a chore, and there's little single group content in PoP that interest me.

Another thing is that the only difficulty in these mobs is that they hit hard. There's no mystery, no wondering what's around the corner, no wondering if anything will add. It's just single pulls of hard hitting mobs all day long, that won't drop anything but xp.

[EZ_Stylx]

Quote: Problem : Where it was generally possible to hunt in EQ without a group, getting experience (reasonable level) and/or loot (reasonable level), with the advent of PoP, it is nearly impossible for anyone to solo.

I've seen so far Rangers, Bards, Wizards, Necros, Druids, enchanters, and mages, all solo PoP stuff.

Rangers i've seen kite in PoV, and PoS.
I've watched wizards quad kite in PoV, and HoH.
Necros solo in PoN, PoD, PoV, PoS that i've seen.
Enchanters solo wherever they frickin feel like using charm kiting.
I've seen druids charm kite in PoS. They drop mobs (giants, and ents) in about 20 seconds per kill. read a strat with it. 7%AA per kill some down time.
I've seen mages solo BoT.
Bards i've seen solo PoN, PoV, PoD, PoI. I think i watched a bard duo BoT, but i really don't know. Wasn't paying attention really.

Not every class was meant to solo. Monks were never meant to solo, but were made solo gods before the mitigation nerf.

Basically, those who care about soloing effectivly, shouldn't take rogues, clerics, shammies (post PoP, pre-pop they're gods, and i'm not entirely conviced they can't solo. Just haven't seen it first hand), warriors, Sk, or pallies.

Pallies and SKs used to be decent at soloing from what i've heard, but again they were never meant for this possition. It just came about.

Also, i've seen many duo groups using rogues, shammies, beastlords, bards, any type of class i've mentioned that can solo. The only classes i haven't seen in a duo group is a cleric. The ONLY reason i haven't seen a cleric duo or solo is because they're weak offensively, and offer nothing except heals to a group for the most part. Yet, evenso, i watched a cleric friend of mine solo PoV undead. (bout 3% an AA a kill, no downtime, but slow kills. Not as effective as a group). I'm a cleric, and haven't really tried it, but mostly because i don't want to solo. Soloing is ok, and for that i made a necro, but I enjoy grouping more. I enjoy the group aspect. If you make things easier so groups can handle things better, then the game becomes too easy. As it is, POP xp is Too good. Too fast. Too easy.

Xp is easy. PoP grouping is easy. Soloing is still possible for those classes skilled at doing so. Stop whining. PoP is a good solid expansion, and has drawn back a ton of interest that Luclin never could.
Stylx Phool Catholic High Priest
Annaconda Ikky Necrophiliac
Master Baker (198)
Master Baiter (196)
Q. Whats the difference between a pile of dead druids and a chevy?
A. I dont have a chevy in my garage.

[EZ_beastmaze]

With the right items cleric can solo undead quite well.
Beasthealer druid 65
darkmoon

[EZ_xzilled angel]

As A wizard I don't particulary like to solo all the time or some days i might have only an hour or so on. I wouldn't try to get into a group knowing I would only be leaving in an hour. This is where soloing comes into play for a lot of players. It was a way to kill downtime or just not be bothered with people for the day.

I personaly love grouping with others, it makes the time go by faster especialy when its a fun and lively group of crazy people and not the 6 man solo ( you know when everyone in the damn group says nothing but incoming and ch to soandso). Groups in PoP have become almost robotic in feel, compared to some old school stuff.

When I was 45 just before kunark released, the big thing was lower guk groups. Heres the trick that VI completely missed. Lower guk was THE xp spot back in the day, not because of just the xp numbers per kill, but because of the loot/camp spots, the random poping nameds with rare and comon loot. I used to use little things to keep track of time, like when frenzy would spawn to keep track of time. during these days i never knew how much time i actualy played but I knew i went through 17 frenzy spawns =). I miss that feeling.

I had this feeling once in PoV when it was my first time in inner cave and the sleep walker poped. I was like ooooo a named. We killed him and he droped......nada. I would have been happy with a damn moonstone ring, nope nothing. Xpin has become just that...XP...nothing more. Its all about the grind in VI's mind. There really are no secondary or tertiary motives to grouping in PoV like places. Its just all about thegrind. If your guild cant progress through tier2-3 PoP mobs, its either level, hit the luclin time sink, or yay kill all of velious.

Its scary that I make more money killing lvl 25-30 dorfs in GD for faction than killing lvl 63 golems in PoV. I couldnt tell you when the last time I looted plat off an xp giving mob =(.

Guess i can only hope SWG, the next expansion or EQ2 will pay a little more attention to all players and not do this shotgun effect and hope for the best.

[EZ_Dorvum]

Lost ability to solo? /boggle

Solo'ing has become easier and easier with every expansion. Unless you're referring specifically to the high end game of 60+ I would totally disagree with your hypothesis.

I've been around since pre-Kunark and have a few 50+ characters and I can definetly say that soloing at least up to 60 has gotten progressively easier. This is why you see people hitting 50 in five days played or less and 60 in ten days played.

I personally liked it better when you had to have a group but the casual players and the power gamers wanted rapid advancement so Sony gave it to them. That left those of us in the middle who really didn't care much either way

I can see how soloing at high levels would be difficult except for those few classes able to charm and what not but I don't see that as a bad thing either. *I* think that hitting the top end should require heavy cooperation. Alot of people wouldn't agree with me and think you should be able to do it solo. What matters in the end is how can Sony cater to both sides to make everyone happy?
They're expanding the blue line again. That means more solo'ing at high levels and better group xp for those lower. Best fix? I don't know. I'll just keep having fun and not worrying too much about collecting more data bits.

[EZ_Goradain]

Add SKs to that list of Soloers (DoT+Pet Kite apparently works).
Goradain - Jedi-Warlord of Rallos Zek

Proud member of Steel Thunder

[EZ_Ishwar2]

In PoP it is easier to solo then at ever was.

And soloing is BAD for the game.

To hunt anywhere, you need a 'location' A soloer take up a location, just as a group does. Ocationally a group will be able to do more then one location at a time, but in general if people solo they need a lot more content per player than if people group.

Some people play the game for the social factor. If too many people turn doen socializing (groupong) to solo instead, the socializers will quit the game.

Some classes need to group. If some of the classes that would allow them to group, ar busy soloing so they cant group, the group dependant classes, will spens a lot of time waiting,qith the class, ro quit the game. (Druids and enchanters are good examples of classes soloing that are needed in groups)

Everquest owes much of its success to the strong emphasis on grouping and raiding. I think all evidence shows that general solo ability, makes people give up a game fairly fast. Ishwar - level 59 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_Bukaroo Banzai]

If I couldn't solo, I'd quit. I don't have the time to group mostly. -Buk<BR>
Touch the monkey!<BR>
Bukk: Enchanter, Test Server<BR>
Buk: Nightshade, Gawaine<BR>
Xiv: Eldritch, Gawaine

[EZ_Gholam Stickyfingers]

Re: Random drops off regular stuff... they are still there. Case in point: I'm fighting in Plane of Tactics right now. Less than an hour ago, two ogres, back to back, dropped a highly polished gem each. Before this session ends, Bloodmetal Earring of Engagement shall be mine And there is stuff like that in every single PoP zone with the exception of CoD. Gholam Stickyfingers
Deceiver
Sacrament of Chaos

[EZ_Aliandra]

Beaslords can solo for aa's at 65, and I've duo'ed with many different classes including a cleric.

For solo, depending on the mob, it's either pet cleric'ing, mixed with some melee or aggro kitting, Aliandra 65th Level Rogue
Kharaf 65th Level Beastlord
Korbin 52nd Level Druid
Sol Invictus

[EZ_labiara]

It's unfortunate that EQ does not support a "I'll just jump on for 30 mins and get a little exp" style of play at high levels. It's simply not in the cards. At least the designers of EQ2 and other upcoming MMORPGs seem to have recognized this, and are attempting to put in alternate means of character advancement. Labiara Stankfoot
Warder of Pink Attack Bunnies
Huntress of Fennin Ro

[EZ_RabidMonkey01]

Excactly Iabiara, I just want to be able once and a while to jump in for 30 mins and not have the hassle of shouting for a grp zone hopping and just solo a bit. Not saying make it easy, just viable. Why DAOC was "fun".

[EZ_Darvek]

I am a lvl 57 Necro, 3 AA's (all in Innate run). I use my Monk pet the most, occasionally I use the rogue pet. As far as soloing goes, I have solo'd all of my EQ career so far. I personally have tried to solo in PoN and PoD, Nothing seems to stick, everyone once in awhile, the epic snare/dot will stick, but any of my fear spells never stick incluiding trepidation. The pets cant take the hits that the MOB's deliver. I can however solo maidens eye like it was nothing, as long as they are goranga's. (Havent tried the Vamps) If anyone knows of good places to solo, please let me know and I dont want to go to the grey... I absolutely HATE that zone!! They took the ogre section of Neriak away from me... Any advice or anythging would be usefull.

P.S. my magelo profile is blocked from work, so I cannot include the link here...

Darvek Wraithverge
57 Defiler of Inny
Fennin Ro Server

[EZ_GlobalChrys]

Gear and AA really play a big part in how strickly traditional a player needs to keep his group in order for the experience to flow smoothly.

When PoP came out, i was quite dismayed at how bad melee had it. To do PoV you needed a slower and a real tank. But in the last 8 months the general quality of gear my guild has been farming has come up quite a bit. And on average everyone has wracked up another 100-150aa points. Such that cleric/monk teams duo'ing elemental mobs for xp are common place.

I would say kiters specially have a very easy time of it. Watching druids and wizards swarm kite HoH, doing 20 mobs at a time for instance (i believe VI nerfed hoh last week so that it is now impossible for 1 person to have agro on more than 4 mobs at a time). Or rangers solo kiting red con mobs in PoFire for 12% aa xp per kill.

8 months in, i have to say PoP overal is not bad. Still hate the dps disparity between casters and melee, and think riposte needs to be tweaked on mobs that hit for more than 2k. Melee could use some higher mitigation. But overal, the group/xp situation is not bad.

On a mob for mob basis, PoP is the most under itemized expansion in EQ history.