View Full Version : Help me get started...
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 05:51 AM
Okay It looks like I'm solid for finally getting CoH later this week, but I'd love to get started thinking about what I want to play early. Does anyone know of any guides on character creation, or possible power listings? I wouldn't mind going into this at least slightly researched. :)
Alturick
05-05-04, 06:29 AM
Sabatini:
There is a program floating around out there called "Hero Planner" that you can play around with the powers in... it also has descriptions and such.
Beyond that, you should take a look at the coh forums, like any game with choices; there are about 4 hundred thousand threads about the "best" combo already.
Basically (and I mean very basic because there are a lot of choices in this game)
Tanker = Warrior (Lots of hitpoints, non-extreme damage)
Scrapper = Monk/Rogue (Not as many hp or defensive options, lots of melee damage)
Controller = Enchanter (Roots, mez, and charm (along with some other toys))
Defender = Cleric/Shaman (buffs, heals, can still blast stuff)
Blaster = Wizard (nuke stuff)
Under that you can have a secondary power type (which I'm not going to explain because I'm doing this all from memory :))
I've played:
Scrapper to 15
Controller to 15
Blaster to 15
Scrappers are slightly underpowered right now (unless I was doing something wrong), since they have few defensive choices, have to be in melee, and don't get any quick heal skills besides inspirations. Melee in this game is kinda clunky in my opinion... but its livable.
Controllers are fun, but soloing is not huge option... you make any group a lot stronger. Charm'ed mobs who kill other mobs do not give you xp... however, you also don't pull aggro with charm.
Blaster is a lot of fun if you want to deal a lot of pain at range.
Just a suggestion, don't make your character as big or as small as possible. Too big, and you have to be looking down to see any enemys (really a pain if your a melee). Too small, and your groupmates have to be looking down to see if your near for buffs/heals (annoying).
The chat interface does not feel nearly as fluid as EQ's did (to me)... but again, its workable.
Hope this helps some.
CogginsEQ
05-05-04, 07:08 AM
One thing Sab, when you do get this game I dont expect to be seeing you until probably next week. Yes, the character creator will keep you busy methinks. :lol
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 08:30 AM
Man talk about deja vu...was just reading the CoH forums and seeing the people complain about how Scrappers are terrible compared to Blasters just reminded me of the old Rogue vs. Caster topics from here. It's eerie how similar the comments are...generates too much aggro...can't solo..can't find a group...nukers make them useless...etc. :)
So seriously, how much personal misery will I be setting myself up for if I want to make an swashbuckling acrobatic swordsman type? (Sounds like Scrapper/broadsword/something else?) I'd like both solo and group usefulness but I'm worried about picking a concept that I realize sucks when I get to a higher level.
Alturick
05-05-04, 08:57 AM
My suggestion on scrapper would be do something like
Broadsword/Reflexes
Skip Regen at the moment (since it just does not regen fast enough from what I've seen/heard)
You can deal out a lot of damage, but endurance and health get eaten pretty quick.
--Alturick
CogginsEQ
05-05-04, 09:05 AM
Yea for a sword using scrapper you have the option of Broadsword or Katana, apparently Broadsword is slower but does more damage than a Katana. They have the exact same style setups though.
I chose Broadsword/regen for my scrapper, and at the lower levels at least I notice a difference with the health regen/endurance regen skills. I enjoy the setup. But again, thats at pre-level 10 only, heheh.
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 09:19 AM
Yeah I was wondering if I'd be forced to take Regen to be viable. Not that I object to regenerating, but I'd be sad if taking it meant I couldn't do showy acrobatic type things.
Is there a 'luck' power in the game? Absurd luck is also a swashbuckler trademark.
(of course I could probably make any build from any character type a 'swashbuckler' with a little imagination...)
I havent played much scrapper but I read that Regen is a MUST if you plan to Solo effectively.
Doesnt apply to the grouping scrapper.
Jayan
opinions vary.
i think its more of people just being inherently lazy,and not figuring out how to play there archtype/class ala EQ.
granted im only level 12 atm,but i dont have any problems soloing. i run out of endurance more often then health.
after talking to a friend who played alot of scrapper variant in beta, from what i can gather the stamina power pool is a must.
Since were doing a safehouse server, it looks like 50% of the people playing are scrapper variants. i dont think we will have the problems that others complain of.
i duo'd a mission with finnigan last night, i did notice that his broadsword damage was alot higher per attack then my katana. speed makes up for that though.
play what you like,or theres no reason to play at all imo.
try Dark melee/dark armor:)
Sab!
I'm not sure about the 20+ game, since i haven't played there, but up to the high teens a scrapper can solo if they play smart. Stealth lets me pick and choose who I fight. I'm playing a dark melee/regen scrapper in retail and having a ball. The big power early on in the regen set isn't health regen, it's end regen. With that said, if you use inspirations or are willing to put up with a bit of downtime between skirmishes the regen isn't "required" just handy.
As for luck, that's the name of the inspiration that boosts your defense ability so you'll be seeing a lot of luck, or at least wishing you were.
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 10:06 AM
Safehouse server? You really can start your own, or do you just mean one server most of the Safehousers are on?
Anyway what exactly is Dark Melee? a Vampiric style powerset?
Too many stupid questions, I know. This will be much easier once I actually get the game in my greedy hands. :)
most of the safehouse is playing on the same server. Me, I'm over on guardian cause that's where the guild went for this game.
Dark Melee is exactly what it sounds like. Powerset full of evil fisticuffs. Most of the powers are melee that have some sort of leach effect, stealing health, endurance or accuracy while dealing both physical and negative energy damaged.
Zulian can attest to the damage Nightprowl can put out at level 12 with Martial Arts (though he sidekicked me for his mission so I was doing level 15 damage). In ten seconds I took a yellow sorcerer (evil, evil teleporting mob) from half health to nothing before he could get away, using one damage inspiration, Focus Chi, and a Crane Kick (while stealthed which knocked him on his butt so I could Storm and Thunder kick him before he got up and ported). The Crane Kick alone did 91 points of damage.
The only problem I have is that I use up endurance like a fish drinks water (though focus chi has helped, since for ten seconds I'm doing almost double damage with the same endurance output). With the three attacks I find I recycle almost perfectly if I go "Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Thunder Kick, Crane Kick, <minute pause while Thunder Kick refreshes - I'll brawl if the mob's at a sliver of health>, then repeat. No recycling enhancements on my attack - all damage or accuracy
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 10:21 AM
Hmm Dark might be worth giving a look at if I don't like how Broadsword performs. Or maybe Spines if I'm in a very silly mood.
From what I've gleaned so far, I can definately see how Endurance can be the bigger issue than Health in many cases.
Another question: I know movement powers are in game, but is it true they aren't tied to a specific powerset? Specifically would something like super jumping be available no matter what I went with for my primary/secondaries? Doing cool leaps would definately make me very happy.
That's correct - at level six you get to choose a power pool power, then at level 14 you can choose the transportation power (teleportation, Flight, super speed, super leap). You must choose one of that power pool power's earlier powers though (for example, for super leap you need to have taken either combat jump or jump kick before you can take super leap, or for teleportation the eariler powers are teleport friend and teleport foe).
Edit: You can take more than one power pool power, and at any level after six as well - I have combat jump and stealth, and if I wanted to I could have also taken hover (though I'm going for a cat theme with Nightprowl, and cats don't hover).
there are generic power pools that are avialable to everyone, 4 of them being primarily movement. Flight, Super Speed, Jumping, and Teleportation are the key movement powers. The way the pools work is that at level 6 you can start taking pool powers 1 and 2 from any pool. At level 14 you can take power number 3 from any pool you've already taken 1 or 2 in. At 20 you can take power 4 from any pool where you've taken 2 of the first 3. I'll give an example for the flight pool.
1. Hover - defense bonus + slow limited flight ability.
2. Air superiority - Overhead attack that does damage and has a chance to ground flying enemy.
3. Flight - true flight, endurance draining and can't attack while using it.
4. Group Flight - grant flight to your entire team.
You have to take hover or air superiority at 6,8,10, or 12 in order to get flight at 14. however you can wait and take it later if movement isn't a high priority.
For a scrapper I think that jumping is probably the best movement power. The 1st power in the set is a good defense power and super jump at level 14 makes getting around easy and looks cool to boot.
Phantom Rogue
05-05-04, 10:41 AM
Regen is overrated lately, and rumored to be gettin nerfed.
Reflexes is the new 'niche' powerset.
I dont like scrappers, but in the high end they are the true damage dealers, as they can sick in melee, where Blasters die in 2 hits, and they cant overagro else they would be in perma debt.
MA scrappers are a dime a dozen, Katana is a good one, though it to eats End rather quickly (bein quicker, but a touch less dmg than Broadsword). DM scrappers are cool but need some getting used to.
Scrappers are hell to play up until 12-15ish, then you really start to shine. If you can bear the first levels, you will be a machine at high levels because blasters cant throw 4 knockback nukes in a row and still live ;)
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 10:46 AM
Thanks folks. This is really good info when combined with Ruccus' great guide I found on the Safehouse main page. The jumping line sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. Now I know from what I read elsewhere Jump kick is an offensive attack with a somewhat lengthy animation time. So Combat jumping is a defensive power then? That sounds like the one I want.
I think Broadsword/Reflex Scrapper with jumping is what I'll try first. I don't mind if it's hard at first so long as it's fun in the long run.
On regen... Regen is a late blooming power and at higher levels it gets very very good. Around level 30 or so, regen powers when slotted correctly keep you regening with even lt. damage.
Actually there shouldn't be any rumors about it being nerfed as many many regen scrappers in beta thought it was horridly useless till the end where the dev's buffed it up a little and brought it in line with the other sets. There was a regeneration pdf floating around around the end of beta i'll look for it soon.
All in all yes immediatly the other sets will give you more gratification, however if your looking for a scrapper as a main regeneration is the power you want for survivability at higher levels.
Reflex is closest thing to "Lucky" IMO. Lots of passive & active powers where attacks just happen to miss you. Couple that with Broadsword and Leaping and I think you'll get close to what you want.
-Creepy
Heh, Finnigan Cross is a broadsword/reflexes scrapper with Leaping as his power pool. It's a fun mix although I almost wish I'd taken regen. I seem to spend a lot of downtime standing around waiting for Rest to pop (Rest is a power everybody gets that immobilizes you, makes you take 5x damage, but regens health and endurance very very quickly). I'm happy with my choice, though. A bit of advice- don't take Focused Senses (the ranged defense toggle power) right away. I did that in beta and regretted it as it's not all that useful. I don't take ranged damage very often, even while soloing. There's the occasional Gunner / Rifleman / Buckshot, but Agile (always-on ranged defense) gives me enough of an edge against them that I don't miss the toggle much. I may take it eventually but early on it's much more valuable to have Slice or another pool power.
BS/Reflex is a tough mix to play to 12. Your attacks are sloooow, so you end up waiting around for refresh a lot, and a few misses in a row can be catastrophic. That said, it is rewarding once you get DO enhancements and can start to dramatically reduce the timers on your powers.
You may or may not want to take a pool power to get an extra attack at 6 or 8. I picked up Boxing at 6 and Combat Jumping at 8 (CJ is quite nice). I regretted it when I found out they were fixing Slash (the end costs have been reversed since beta, so slash used WAY more end than hack- I didn't get Slash until 12), but now that I have both Hack and Slash I find I'm still using it enough to be useful. I think I'd rather have Hasten though (35% reduction in recharge timers for 2 minutes, 5 min reuse, but from what I hear 2 DO or 1 SO recharge makes it virtually "always on").
I also wouldn't use any slots on defensive powers early on as a scrapper. I've got 2 slots each in Focused Fighting and Agile and I think that'll be enough until Hack and Slash are maxxed.
Grouping with Aiden really demonstrated to me the differences between Katana and Broadsword. His individual attacks did less damage but his attack speed seemed to be quite a bit better. I haven't run the numbers but I'd guess that Cryptic has, and the overall DPS of the two powersets are probably equal. Katana will give you a much smoother damage-over-time curve as well and it seemed to use less endurance overall, but the tradeoff is that white minions rarely survive an intial volley of buildup+hack & slash & slice/boxing. Depending on the gang I'm fighting, sometimes I don't even need the 3rd attack.
Feel free to send a /tell to Finnigan Cross once you get up and running with any questions you may have about the powerset(s), or the game in general.
edit: Oh yeah, most of us are on the Victory server. We've got a SG set up and everything!
One of the devs posted that getting regeneration, then combining it with the fitness power pools that expand health then endurance regen makes a very veyry powerful combination, but it is a late bloomer. Reflexes is a fun power set. For a swashbuckling rogue I would definately saw broadsword or katana and reflexes though. there are some pretty nice costume options for pirates including bandanas and eyepatches heh.
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the nice breakdown, Argyll. When I was playing with the Character Planner that Ranged defense one I did plan on taking early. It's good to hear which skills are more useful.
Do you think I'd be wiser to take Hack or Slash as my first skill? I'll get both eventually, but would I be better starting with the faster move for the early levels, or the harder hitting one?
I probably should go Katana over Broadsword because I've always preferred speed over power. I just worry that If they do eventually let you customize your weapon, the broadsword would probably be more likely to have something that looks like a rapier or cutlass. And the second worry is if they make the animations look more 'katana' like for that weapon I don't want to find myself fighting in an asian style with a pirate character.
I'm sure based on what Kroe is saying I'll probably spend days designing the look of my character. Is there an option for altering your character's appearance once created or are you pretty much stuck with one look forever?
trust me the animation for katana is nothing asian about it.
right now the only way to change how your character looks is to be in a supergroup and use the supergroup colors. It gives you the option of adding whatever your supergroup's colors are, but you can't change the costume options themselves, only the colors.
By the end of may-mid june there is supposed to be a major content patch including the ability to retailor your costume.
The katana and broadsword animations are identical (unfortunately). IMO they fit a broadsword style more; the katana people definately deserve a more original animation set.
Once you finish the tutorial you have three choices. You can have Hack and Slash, Hack and Slice (cone ae that does Slash-level damage), or Slash and Slice. I'd say get Hack and Slash at 1 and 2 (order doesn't matter), then pick up Slice at 4. 6 and on there's no better or worse direction to go, but if I could do it again I would get Build Up at 6, Agile at 8, Combat Jumping at 10, and Hasten / Swift or Hurdle (if you want Health and Stamina) at 12. That sets you up for Super Leap at 14.
Oh yeah, skip Parry and Taunt. Parry just sucks (the def buff lasts like 5 seconds, I hear) and Taunt isn't real useful for a scrapper unless you plan on grouping a lot and being a tanker (trust me, you don't want to). If you do want Health and Stamina (I do, badly) you have to give up 3 powers from your archetype powersets (one for a prereq). Leaving Parry and Taunt gets you two, and you've got to decide which of the defensive powers you can most afford to leave and I'm still up in the air about that. I'm putting off the decision until my 20s, but I've a feeling it will be either the toggle AoE def or Focused Senses.
I may even give up both. That would leave me without Focused Senses, toggle AoE def, Taunt, and Parry from my arch lines, but would get me Hasten, Swift/Hurdle (probably Hurdle for the neato factor of stacking with Combat Jump, Ruccus turned me on to that idea), Health, and Stamina from pool powers.
They are supposed to implement tailoring in a future update, so in theory your costume is not 'forever'. I would imagine that implementing various weapon customization options for scrappers and tankers would be another item on the list but I haven't read anything to support it (but honestly, it's such a no-brainer crowdpleaser that I think they will).
they confirmed back in beta that customizing the weapons was DEFINATELY on the list. They had been hoping at one point to get it pre-launch, not sure on the timeline now.
Hmm. Wonder if I can get a Dollie and a beer mug, like in EQ.
Erm, nevermind.
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 03:28 PM
The katana and broadsword animations are identical (unfortunately). IMO they fit a broadsword style more; the katana people definately deserve a more original animation set
Yeah that's pretty much my worry. That if I go Katana, they'll end up giving the style the animations it deserves at some later point and screw up my character concept. :)
Good skill breakdown btw. I may tweak it a little but I definately feel I can make more informed choices now. My biggest fear was screwing up an early choice that would keep me from getting something I wanted more later on.
yeah but right now your options are katana or claymore so either way it's not a rapier or cutlass heh. Thouh I knwo there's a certain someoen who frequents the Safehouse who has an AWFUL lot of pull inside cryptic and what the graphics are going to look like. :) not sure if he wants to be outed though (ok most people from teh COH boards already know but still...) Hopefully he'll poke his head in here eventually.
The neat thing about CoH is that you can use enhancements to flesh out your character concept. You want a broadsword, but faster? 6 DO recharge enhancements (or 3 SO) will halve the speed of your attack. 6 slots on both Hack and Slash will take the recharge timers down to 4 and 2 seconds, respectively.
Sabatini Scratch
05-05-04, 03:40 PM
Claymore? as in two handed fighting style? Ugh. I'm going to have to rethink things then. /whinebitchmoan :)
Here's hoping the secret insider fills us in....
yeah it's onehanded, just looks like a damned claymore sort of hehe. maybe more like MacCleod's scottish sword from the old highlander movie before he got ramirez's katana.
oogly. Can't wait till tehy let you customize weapons. I know I won't take claws until I stop looking like a wolverine clone.
the only problem i have with the sword's is they animations are pretty poor. the spines/claws animations look about 500% better.
the MA animations are good,but most people are used to them from other games so get overlooked.
ShadowCross
05-06-04, 01:08 AM
GAH.. reading this topic I am close to getting CoH myself...
Must... resist... the... urge...
Stop using your mind powers on me!
Edit: Too late - I just ordered it online. I hate online ordering.. makes it too difficult to resist those urges.
Sabatini Scratch
05-06-04, 02:05 AM
heheh. Yeah I broke down and bought it myself last night. Couldn't wait until the weekend like originally planned. Spent most of the night playing with different character design/builds. It's truly staggering how many costume options there are!
I'll let you folks know who I'm playing once I finally settle on one. :D
ShadowCross
05-06-04, 02:10 AM
Sab, I take it you are going to play on Victory too?
Sabatini Scratch
05-06-04, 09:00 AM
Yep I'm on victory. Currently testing every possible character type. :)
I got a scrapper Broadsword/Reflexes up to 3rd and was really enjoying it, but I may reroll him to tweak his appearance and/or name. (Currently it's The Knave of Swords) I'm sure I'll have settled on something soon.
I can't believe how well this game is running even on dialup. I think the biggest surprise though is that this is the first online game that I didn't spend multiple hours downloading patches before being able to play it right out of the box. Took about 1 minute on dialup and that was only to update the updater. :blink
freonsmurf
05-06-04, 09:47 AM
This game did everything right at launch, really impressive.
And when Wix and I both agree on a topic, you know it has to be right.
I think the fact that your post counts attest to that. You've almost topped FF and SWG combined.
Ive played a scrapper a few times and would like to put in what ive observed..
Broadsword/Katana.. both are good weapons, they also have defense debuffs in them so when in groups you increase your teams damage... but... katana hits faster so it puts in more defense debuffers. At this time I have not noticed a higher overall group damage with broadsword/katana people.
Spines... Spines are cool.. The slow effect on the poison is hardly noticeable early on, but when you get higher the effect starts to show itself.. In groups A spine Scrapper or two is nice to reduce damage.
Martial Arts - Martial arts moves are good, and fairly accurate from what ive seen. the draw back? heavy Endurence costs compared to the other attacks, and no debuff component. But overall its a better DPS curve than the rest, especialy as you fight higher and higher mobs compared to your level due to the high accuracy.
Dark - Dark is one of my favorites, its one of the best to go solo with. Dark attacks are highly innacuate, at least Smite is.. Shadow Maul (the level 3 dark attack that does 6-8 hits were half of each hit is negative and half is crushing damage) is a bit more accurate.. Dark attacks also reduce your opponents accuracy, so when solo if you can hit them, it makes them less likely to hit you.. as well later Dark moves consist of AE lifetaps, AE tap that increases your strength and accuracy, and an AE tap that turns thier life into endurence for you. overall for sheer Solo play, if you can get enough accuracy I feel Dark can be the best played.
As for secondary.. Regeneration or Reflexes would be my top choises...Endurence/HP regen + a self revive from regeneration.. and a self heal... is realy nice. grab the regens from the Fitness line, and you have two innate hp and endurence regens, enough endurence regen to allow you to pull off more moves when solo.
Problems I see with Scrappers? If you do not get Stealth (highest defense bonus, yes?), Combat Jumping, or another defense increasing toggle ability, and when it gets turned off via stun/mez/sleep You take damage at an astounding rate, not worse than a controller/blaster/defender.. but still.. fast enough to be a problem.
Honestly when someone wants to play a solo powered Scrapper.. I fully sugest doing Dark/Regen.. its very fun, especialy for those who like the "evil hero" types... but then any combat type is good, especialy when in groups.
Now.. to put this in perspective, I play a Fire/Empathy Controller. In groups im watching peoples life most of the time.. that or rezing them cause I didnt =p.
But from my experience in grouping to level 22. Scrappers can tank, and freaquently do. Tankers are better tanks, but a well built Scrapper can come extreamly close to a poorly built tanker in tanking power.
` Poorly built means one not designed to be a tank, IE(has picked up "cool" powers and not focused on powers that assist in thier job first. like flight or any other non-combat ability) Poorly built charicters are not bad, in fact thats what most people are. Its more fun to play a charicter you have fun with than one thats best at the situation normaly.. especialy when your trying to walk across a zone and dont have fly or teleport..
Overall, the main thing to remember when making a Scrapper, your not a tank, well not realy. Expect to go splat if your healer isnt good or paying attention. But enjoy the knowlage that normaly, the Blasters die before the scrappers =p Especialy if ones your puller. Ive rezed more blasters/defenders than I have scrappers.. but Ive rezed fewer still Tankers. Also, from in-game experience on the Pinnacle server.. Scrappers appear the be the least played of the classes with Blasters the most played. Higher you get, fewer blasters are still playing though.. guess they got tired of finding out that solo consists of building up a good chunk of debt to learn how to solo.
ok, everything in this has been my opinion/experiences since the start of game.. hope it helps someone outo in making a charicter that they will enjoy playing.
Sabatini Scratch
05-06-04, 01:53 PM
I never hear anyone discuss Invulnerability as a secondary Scrapper choice. How bad an idea is it? Is it significantly less powerful than the Tanker primary version? Or would it make the Scrapper more useful on the front line for groups?
I was toying with a funny broadsword/invlunerable scrapper concept and it seemed pretty decent as a new character, but I'm wondering how bad an idea it would be in the long run.
Also, is there some reason why toggleable abilites (like Focused Fighting, sprint, or Temp Invulnerability) shouldn't be kept on all the time? I think I may have been healing slower with Temp Inv. on but I wasn't sure if that was my imagination or not.
Your endurance recharges slower with most (all?) Toggle powers.
For a lot of people this can be a big problem, as running out of END is a major issue depending on your powers/enhancments
No, it's not as effective as the Tanker version of the Invuln powerset, but it is still a fine choice. It's less popular because you don't get any powers that help increase your damage or downtime at higher levels. With Reflexes you get Quickness (permahaste), Regen gets you the endurance and health regens, and DA gets you all sorts of offensive toys.
The difference between Reflexes and Invuln is that one is geared towards +def (not getting hit), and the other towards +res (damage mitigation). Reflexes would seem to be more effective when dealing with cons right around your level, and Invuln would seem to be more effective when fighting purple cons and bosses.
El Sorriso
05-06-04, 03:44 PM
Invulnerability is supposed to be one of the better powers for Scrappers or Tankers from what I have heard.
I would also second that Parry is a wasted power. Huge stamina hog, low damage, no noticeable difference in my damage intake.
I've heard alot of good things about the Dark art defensive line for Scrappers, but be warned, that Dark art and Spines (offensive) ability will obscure your hero's costume pretty considerably whenever its on.
anyone try dark armor at higher levels? the only dark armor combos I can recall are the spine scrappers because they wanted teh aoe damage powers from the dark armor set to augment there damage to keep up with other scrappers.