new poison contact procs?

[EZ_farmatyr1]

Relevant link: lucy.fnord.net/newspells....2023:18:43

Lot's of spells similar to the existing ranger Call of Fire, Call of Sky and Jolting Blades spells appeared on Test.

The thing is, I can't see rangers getting 25 new level 55 spells with POP, so I suspect they are mislabelled. Could this be the fix to all the "poison is useless" complaints?

edit: contact, not contRact. Edited by: Vaslin at: 7/29/02 9:55:29 am

[EZ_L0z]

We have been heard.

Edit:

So you don't have to fiddle around to get the basic idea, each poison is a 15 minute "buff" that allows you to proc an effect (like ranger Call of Sky, sk Vamp touch, pally Divine Might, etc.)

The effects are as follows:
They're 15 minute spells that add procs that will do several things:

Confine - decrease movement (max 55%)
Corruption - decrease hp by 55, dot for 66/tic over 5 tics - 385 total
Dip Resist - lower all resists (max 10)
Destroy Mind - reduce mana (max 60 per tic, for 5 tics)
Molten Silver - 175 dd
Remiss - lowers hate (max 500)
Sluggish - lowers hate (max 110), lowers dex (max 120)
Strike - 75 dd
System Concussion - 75dd, stun (0.0 secs)
Vein Rot - dot for 36hp/tic over 15 tics - 540 total
Waste - lower dex (max 60), lower hate (max 110), lower str (max 120


Over all, very kickass. I'm glad someone has been listening. Let's see how exactly everything works, but it looks good. Lozoria Shinkicker
Hobbit Assassin
Paradigm | E-mail | ProfileEdited by: L0z at: 7/24/02 6:09:59 am

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Holy cow. It's exactly what some of us were talking about.

There's a buff, Strike Poison II, 10 minute duration

Then there's a spell, with NONE as casters, which is what procs list. Does 75 hp of damage against poison resist.

There seems to be a correlation - buff and proc, buff and proc, down the line.

Most of the level 2's last 10 minutes, and the level 3's seem to last 15 minutes but I didn't check them all.


Strike does damage (Strike 2 and 3 do 75 points. Odd)

Destroy mind 2 decreases mana by 30 per tick, and adds poison counters, 5 tick duration. (DM3 is 60 per tick)

Vein Rot 2 is 24/tick DoT for 90 seconds. VR3 is 36/tick for 90 seconds. (360 dmg total and 540 total)

Corruption 2 does 35, then 42/tick for 5 ticks. Corr3 is 55 and 65/tick for 5 ticks.

Molten Silver 2 does 125 DD to undead against magic resist. MS3 is 175.

Dip Resist 2 drops all resists by 5 for 5 ticks. DR3 drops them by 10. (Both are hard to cure.) No idea how this will stack with other debuffs but I suspect it was designed to stack.

Confine 2 is a 41%-55% snare lasting one minute. Confine 3 reads the same. (odd differences that I don't understand)

Sluggish 2 reduces dex by 30-90, and also reduces hate (must be a counterbalance) lasting 1.2 minute. Slug3 is 60-120 DEX. Can you say anti-flurry? Lasts up to 3 minutes at level 60.

System Concussion 2 is a 50 point DD and a stun. SC3 ups the damage to 75.

Waste 2 increases hate (?), decreases strength by 30-90. Much the same as Sluggish.

And what may be the most interesting one of all: Remiss

Remiss 2 decreases hate by 500
Remiss 3 reads the same right now.

A hate reducing proc? I'm speechless.

We're making assumptions about these, but it sure looks consistent to me.


Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_TibisHatter]

These are very intriguing, although as I've said before "I'll believe it when I see it".

I will admit that I've never been fond of the contact proc buff idea for poisons, and I am curious as to how this will be shoehorned into the current system.

If this is a poison fix, I'm curious as to whether these will result from new recipes, or whether these effects will be retrofitted to existing poisons. If they will result from new recipes, then perhaps the hunt will be on for Testers to find them!
"The Internet is a write-only medium" - unknown

[EZ_Prodigious]

sounds awesome i was wondering about the ranger tag, but if you look at:

lucy.fnord.net/newspells....:48&page=3

(& strike on page 2)

you'll see them as seperate spells actually. i don't see why rangers should get these poisons though....

one thing I noticed about Dip Resist: Lucy says 'Resist: N/A', which I assume means it's unresistable....not bad with a 30 second additional debuff to help land slow, cripple, etc.if you look at

lucy.fnord.net/newspells....:48&page=3

you'll see them as seperate spells actually

waste 3 increases dex according to Lucy's, sounds like a nasty thing to use on a competing guild's flurrying/rampaging mob :/ Marauder Prodigious Prodigy
Fennin Ro
Edited by: Prodigious at: 7/24/02 8:37:25 am

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

The simplest explanation for the Ranger designation is that they were copied and pasted from ranger spells and that it will be changed later, or maybe not. I certainly don't think rangers will be able to scribe and cast these spells.

OTOH maybe it's done that way on test to give an easy way to test out the effects - dummy them as ranger spells and cast them to try them out, then change them to go live.


Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[ShadowCross]

OMG.. that might actually make me come back with PoP.. at least it might be one reason for coming back. ShadowCross Bladesong
- Webmaster of succubus.de
- Messageboard Moderator: The Safehouse - An RPG Rogue Community
- Everquest: Baron Shadowcross Bladesong (ret.), Teir'dal Assassin, Antonious Bayle
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- LARP: Lord Crian ShadowCross Lugh-Goldstien, Baron of Tirion, Shire of Pendaran, Terra Nigra

[EZ_L0z]

OTOH maybe it's done that way on test to give an easy way to test out the effects - dummy them as ranger spells and cast them to try them out, then change them to go live.

These are on the live servers. Lozoria Shinkicker
Hobbit Assassin
Paradigm | E-mail | Profile

[vaslin]

Just because it's on the live server, doesn't mean the spells are 'live'.

[EZ_Restyn]

I would like to echo the "I'll believe it when I see it" sentiment. Also, I would like to remind people that if a poison is a proc, that means it may never land (unless they are making it a 100% proc or something), but that will just add weight to DEX finally I guess. Also, we will have less control over when to use it in a fight.

Anyway, just wait, if this goes live, someone will come here saying they applied Spirit of Sloth and it never procced...
Restyn
Rogue of Saryrn Server
Half elf ... all rogue
Master Fletcher (166), Master Potter (154), Master Baker (139), Master Apothecary (120), Master Smith (120), Tailor (88), Brewer (88) and Friend to all Fish (3)

[EZ_L0z]

True Vaslin, however I was just pointing out that they are actually pushed to the live servers. Whether or not there are recipes for them is another matter entirely. Though, I have a feeling there are. Lozoria Shinkicker
Hobbit Assassin
Paradigm | E-mail | Profile

[EZ_Gooda]

WOW WOW WOW

This would just make me as happy as a pig in ... mud. All that work getting poison up may actually pay off. I just hope the ingredients aren't too hard or rare to collect for a rogue.

If this is true .. WTG Verant !!


Gooda
Assassin
Fennin Ro

Behold the power of CHEESE

[EZ_Venatos MojoNinja]

Interesting thing I noticed when browsing over those new spell effects is the fact that for one of them the range was changed from 100 to 200. I look at the other ones and their range is also 200. Will these be allowed to proc via throwing? Only time can tell. Edited by: Venatos MojoNinja at: 7/24/02 4:36:01 pm

[EZ_L0z]

Since you can now proc items while throwing, or using archery, and I can proc when I have call of sky up (from the Vex Thal orb) while throwing, I presume so. It would take special coding to *keep* them from procing.

[Saejorn]

I would imagine all of the old poisons would still be available for a situation in which you *need* an effect to happen at a certain time (ie something at the beginning of a fight, a poison stun for a ch'ing mob who is mr, etc). As to whether regular poison will still be applicable with the "proc buff" in effect without one over-writing the other, remains to be seen. Seem they could co-exist peacefully... let us hope =)


Mystic Knights
The little guild that could. Saejorn T'Kaarn
54 Rogue Xulan Du'Traix
55 SK
Tarew Marr
League of Guilds

[EZ_Restyn]

Hmm, if these are coded to brand new recipes, then that would be very cool. We could elect to go with a proc poison or the old school first hit ones.

If that is is the case, and they go live, then yeah, Restyn is a happy rogue

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

Sounds froggy, but I'm still a bit confused.

Looks like most of the DD poisons there are reduced. I know Mind Melt does somethin' to the lines of 555 at level 60. I look at a 75dd to 100 dd proc as not much. Then again, I don't understand the system of *proc buffin'*. Does this mean that these poison effects will kick in a random amount of times until that period of 10-15 minutes expires? I'm really not sure. Someone please give me a better explanation.

I also remember readin' on one of the sites that Verant is very interested in expandin' the poison application. Meanin', that Rogues would be able to apply weapons for other people. If that happens in PoP, I see a financial horizon for Rogues in the near future.

Ishkur Leroux
"Poison. It's what took out Romeo."

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Quote: Looks like most of the DD poisons there are reduced. I know Mind Melt does somethin' to the lines of 555 at level 60. I look at a 75dd to 100 dd proc as not much. Then again, I don't understand the system of *proc buffin'*. Does this mean that these poison effects will kick in a random amount of times until that period of 10-15 minutes expires?

That's exactly what it means.

Mind melt is 555 damage, once.

New poison is, let's say, a 100 point damage, but you can proc many times over the 10 or 15 minute period with one application of the poison. Personally I find this better on a number of levels - mostly that I'm not starting off the fight with a high-agro action of doing 555 damage.

There are buffs that give you a proc, where you did not have one before. Paladins have a spell they cast on themselves - when active it gives their weapons a undead-only proc. (This is in addition to whatever proc the weapons may have had before.)

The theory is that these poisons work the same way. You apply the poison to the blade, and the poison will affect the target at random times. (I.e. you "cast" the "buff" on yourself, and now your weapons proc the effect on your target)



Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

That's what I thought. Don't get me wrong. I like the 555 damage once ordeal. But here's the thin' I've always said about Rogues. Rogues are supposed to be deadly...but subtle. Poison is supposed to be subtle. Givin' 555 damage and gettin' the agro and mobs attention in the beginnin' isn't subtle. Matter of fact it's quite obvious. Big figures SOUND nice, but if you have 10-15 minutes of poison, it's worth the effort into investin' into poison. Furthermore, you don't have to worry about reapplication right after a kill because you got 10 minutes of the stuff, so it's TRULY coated. And it also makes AA skills like Purge Poison and Poison Mastery....USEFUL.

Personally, I rather do the subtle damage but constantly than just one good blow, so it sounds good. But what I'm tryin' to figure is what determines if the poison lands and how often it does. Would that be dex, the poison itself, the amount of hits you land, or the person's skill in poison application. I think tha the latter would seem much useful. If this is all true, it's gonna be vicious.

Ishkur Leroux
"Someone's veins are gonna go through hell."

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Quote: But what I'm tryin' to figure is what determines if the poison lands and how often it does

I'm not sure I entirely follow you here.

How often: well it's the same question as "how often will my weapon proc"? There's probably someone who knows the numbers but I don't. It is well known that the higher your DEX the more often you proc, so a high dex will make your poison "go off" more often.

If it lands: Only thing that would matter here is the poison resistance of the target creature. (Exception: the undead DD poison is based on magic resistance)
Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

Sorry for the confusion. I haven't really seen most of the proc buffs that Paladins have and thus, don't understand it that well. The reason I asked was because with the way it's presented there are so many radical possibilities. It could be based on Dex or hell, it could kick in and out like a Bard song, although that could be a bit too extreme. But either way, it sounds like a breakthrough that's finally needed.

Ishkur Leroux
"Finally, a ray of light"

[EZ_Restyn]

Been thinking about this more ...

The weapons I currently use (Crystaline Spider Fang and Smoldering Brand) proc a good couple of times within a 10-15 minute period. Not sure exactly, but would not be surprised if it is half a dozen. I am level 32 with a DEX of 127.

If the poisons worked as a similar proc, and therefore worked off your DEX and level, then this wouldn't be too bad. I would get half a dozen procs in a 15 minute dose of poison. I could live with that. Could REALLY live with that if I could poison both weapons

Again, this is assuming this all goes live anyway

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Re: procs

I typically see weapon procs multiple times during a fight with a blue exp mob (at level 60, with appropriately high dex) so I think the "value" is there, but of course that depends how hard it is to make the poison in the first place.

Of course Murphy states you'll never get a proc when you really need one.

As for two weapons, spells like this give you a chance to proc on both weapons, so you are effectively poisoning both.
Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[Orthaanc]

When rangers cast they're proc does it go on both weapons (ie each has a chance to proc)? just wondering Orthaanc Clevermind
Lvl 51 Wood Elf Rogue
Rodcet Nife
Let schoolmasters puzzle their brain with grammar and nonsense and learning; Good liquor I stoutly maintain gives genius a better discerning.
~Oliver Goldsmith~

[EZ_Talabrina]

Any clue if they will stack with each other?
I mean apply a snare poison ... get an icon buff lasting 15 minut. Then apply whatever other poison that will also last 15 minuts?. Or will simply the second poison overwrite the first one?

Any clue if the effects wiil stack with spells?
I mean will the dots stack with shaman, necro dots? will the debuff stack with shaman or chanter debuffs?

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

I am not wise enough in the ways of spdat to judge stacking. I suggest you head to lucy.fnord.net and see what you can make out.

If it were me, I wouldn't let the buffs stack with each other - one poison at a time.

As for stacking with the other dots, no idea. The answer is there in the spdat but I can't figure it out.


Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_Fuzzyfoot07]

A little confused, maybe lack of sleep... So we are assuming that poisons will be changed (to sort of Spells/Buffs)... So you can mem. the spell and then cast on yourself of others... Will each spell require that you have that poisons in inventory and use it up as you cast? If so I am glad I am sitting at 200 in PM now :-P Fuzzyfoot Buppaizfat
55 ( Now 54 Thanks a lot Fyrbreynd) Druid
<U>Stabn</U>
56 Rogue

[EZ_Tenbil]

If all the speculation is correct, I'd expect it'd be more like shaman potions. Right click it and you "cast" a proc buff on yourself. Tenbil En`Haldar
55th rank Guardian of the Black
Quixotic Union of Optimists

[EZ_Cobee Blazesummoner]

I think the best thing about making poisons a "proc" for a duration of time is that it will (hopefully) circumvent wasting a poison you spent hours farming components for on a "Your target is too far away" or "You cannot see your target" because of bugginess. I make 3rd tier DEX debuffing poison for Sontalak kills, and almost every time I try to hit him with it, I get one of the two messages or a resist.

This will be a good change if acted on. Jaames Wasabi
Hafring AssassinCobee Blazesummoner
Magi of the 58th Re-DingInsidious Blood

[Malaclypse]

My assumption, on the stacking issue, is that they'll use the same code as they did for potions...only one effect can be active at a time.

Malaclypse, Redeemed 49 Barb Rogue
MadMalik Fenderson, 44 Troll Shaman
Tarew Marr

[EZ_Memnenth Moondust]

&lt;-- Paladin

Weapon procs are entirely different from this system.

A) You can only have one proc up, so dont expect this to stack with Boon of the Garou, as the lifetap proc will overwrite your poison here.

B) From all that we can tell, Spell procs are not Dex Based (well they arent with divine might) its almost like a streaky weighted random generated number, with the weighted portion being relevant to last time it proced.

There are some big DM posts over at PoN if youre really curious, but im far too lazy to dig them up for you ;).

eq.castersrealm.com/PoN/ Sir Memnenth

[DarthEnder]

Ahem. *We* have been heard? More like *I* have been heard!

I AM THE MESSIAH OF POISON! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!!! FEAR MY L33T GAME DESIGN SKILLS!

[DarthEnder]

Ahem, seriously though. I am VERY glad I have 250+ Make Poison right now. And I am equally glad that I put so many of my starting points into dex.

I too suspect that this will be made to work like potions do. Which also means that they can make them charged. The only downside is that this means Apply Poison won't actually do anything anymore unless they come up with a new way to implement it, such as faster "cast" time on the vial, or like a channeling effect when activating poisons.

And yes, I'f my knowledge of spell procs is correct, one casting of the buff will cause your mainhand, offhand AND ranged attacks to all proc the effect. But don't expect to be able to have more than one up at a time.

[Squink McPoke]

Hehe, maybe this is one of those 'careful what you wish for' moments. What if it's tied into poison mastery aa skill? -- Squink McPoke, 60 Assassin, Lanys T'vyl

[EZ_Gooda]

ACk. *wince* Squink. That would just be the last *****. I hate AA grinding.
Gooda
Assassin
Fennin Ro

Behold the power of CHEESE

[Ewan aka nach0king]

Holy guacamole... Jokah Pandahunter
60 Gnome Rogue & Baron
Drunken Bandits - GM
Bristlebane

[EZ_Kenuvan]

I am really excited about this, if it goes live, it will be exactly what myself and many other rogues have been begging for since long ago

[EZ_Uron insert pun here]

I wonder, if they let non-rogues cast the poison buff on themselves, or if they let rogues cast the poison buff on other people...

will the target character, (assumed non-rogue), still need to be weilding a piercing weapon?

If so, monks are screwed and they could really use these effects to the fullest more than most.

I hope that's not the case.

- Branagh Blackthorn -
the black thorn on the White Rose

[EZ_Lilara d Estra]

Weapon Procs:

Verant has the ability to modify the % chance a proc will go off, but your Dexterity increases that % chance. It's that simple.

I'm not 100%, but I imagine it's the same way with Buffs that give you procs, IE, they can modify the chance to Proc. Dex may not increase the chance for a Buff Proc though, you'd have to ask Paladins and Rangers if they've tested that.


I really love this idea! I hope it makes it live sometime soon! [b]Ibby Bay
[b]Assassin for Keepers of the Faith
[b]Magelo Bandwagon

[EZ_Restyn]

So then, it would be possible for a rogue to apply a (only one at a time it looks like) poison using Apply Poison skill, and then have a % chance of proc based on that same Apply Poison skill, modified by your DEX and maybe your level and maybe level of the poison.

I'd like that.

It would mean that someone who is level 60 would be proccing like a madman with Snake Venom, but a level 20 would have a hell of a time getting System Shock to work.

[EZ_Aerimus Shadowborn]

"I wonder, if they let non-rogues cast the poison buff on themselves, or if they let rogues cast the poison buff on other people..."

Nobody but rogues should be able to use rogue poison. Period.

Personally Id like an item with charges of FD or perhaps HT...

[EZ_Sharpie Mharkur]

Just out of curiosity, have the anacondas in Jaggedpine been dropping any new sacs? I was thinking about it last night and didn't have a chance to kill one, and seeing this makes me curious...

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

I like Restyn's thinkin'.

I do not think that Apply Poison only applies to the application of that poison on a weapon. If they modified that percentage with Apply Poison playin' a significant role, then the whole process would be interestin' and the AA Poison Mastery would definitely be useful.

It also means that if it is truly proc buffin', then it should be absolutely no problem for Rogues to "poison" other people's weapons. If they do that and base it on the Apply Poison skill, then that could mean that other classes may have a default % in which it kicks in whereas Rogues have that percentage affected by the Apply Poison skill.

What I mean is this. Take a enchantresswho has her piercer poisoned. You can have the results based on

A) Default % of "proc" since they didn't apply the poison

B) A 1/4 or 1/3 value of the Rogue who applied the poison's Apply Poison added to that default %

Whereas a Rogue who applies his/her poison to his/her weapon will have maybe 1/2 or a whole value added to that default %. That would certify that Rogue's are TRULY the masters of poisonin'. It would be how like other classes use arrows well but nowhere as near as Rangers and so on.

It just has so many possibilites.

Ishkur Leroux
"Poison. It's how Hamlet's father was killed."

[EZ_Gooda]

NEWS HEADLINE -- A Band of Unruly Rogues Take Down Gore

In the local news, it seems a band of rogue, using the new Destroy Mind poison, drain Gore of all her mana, coordinate Duelest DISCs, and cheat the 6 person mana burn team of their lootz.

Wizards and Bards everywhere cry nerf.
--------------------

:P

[EZ_Lifty]

don't waste my time if they don't make the fuggers stackable

[EZ_Restyn]

Stackable? I really don't mind either way. I would have no problem carrying 4 vials of poison and using them as needed. If it were a 15 minute proc, that would be an hour worth of proccing poison ... and that is sweet in my book

[vaslin]

Without knowing a thing... I can pretty much assure you that you won't have the ability to stack multiple poisons simultaneously.

They don't stack now anyways.

[EZ_Kenuvan]

the code as it stands doenst allow items with an Effect to stack =( That said, i can carry a few potions around.

However, farming components for these poisons again and again is going to get old fast =(

I only wish they made the potions unlimited charges but requiring a reagent in inventory to cast.

For example, to apply liquid silver to your weapon you need a zombie skin, or a stack of zombine skins etc.. in your bag that are not consumed, but it wont cast if you dont have the reagents in inventory.

This makes it so you have to at least get the reagents once, but then you dont have to keep going back after you have :

a) combined all the proper components into your Poison Vial and created the final product with the Effect

b) kept a required reagent(s) in inventory while applying this poison

If they make them 1 shots that you have to farm constantly and fill up your bags for it, well, i probly wont put too much effort into it especially considering the resist rate on poison , and the fact that the poison debuffs for necro class check against poison resist to land and agro worse than tash... perhaps if they did a word wide reduction of poison resists much like the velious patch to magic/fire/cold resists, it would be a lot more handy.

Cheers
Kenuvan
Make Poison (252)

ps.
where are the beneficial poison effects that we had? :P
i wouldnt mind a selfproc haste/regen/atk or lifetap of some sort, ofcourse its quite far fetched, but oh well 2 cents Edited by: Kenuvan at: 7/26/02 2:53:22 pm

[EZ_L0z]

I *think* that it'll be done in the style of alchemy, where you can combine potions to make a multiple charge one. I could be wrong though. It's happened before.

[DarthEnder]

Me too. I hope the container is made with pottery though. To harken us back to the days when rogues had to make their poison vials and all had to get good at pottery.

[Avrus]

Well, I may finally feel good about maxing make poison.

I can't wait to see how this turns out.

[EZ_Thalish Bladespinner]

Now if they can only get the damn things to stack like shaman potions - which I'm guessing is the reason the effects are now spell effects similar to shaman potion buffs.

Will be interesting to see if rogue poison will be something that can be handed out to others; because if it is the shammies are gonna go off the deep end because of the absurd utility of those from a large scale perspective. Not to mention there's gonna be some really busy rogues and poison farming is going to be insane.

Personally I hope it remains rogue only.







Thalish Bladespinner
"Thalish spins her blade sexily and disappears"

/who all Thalish
[60 Assassin] Thalish

[EZ_Tauk]

I sure hope this is rogue only. I already made my macro for the Rogue Cripple posion (the -120str -60dex one). Woot i get to be like a shaman and talk in guildchat now.
-Veteran Kuat Diamonddog-
Assassian of the Vale...
"I am become death, the shatterer of worlds"

[EZ_Lifty]

sorry if i wasn't clear...i don't mean stackable buffs, i mean poison vials being made stackable like in a stack of 20, or having charges like shammy potions.

[EZ_Prodigious]

ranger tag is off on live servers btw Marauder Prodigious Prodigy
Fennin Ro

[Northerner]

I am speechless. Celeris Tujimson
Assassin of The Nameless
"The gods too are fond of a joke." -Aristotle

[EZ_Kaledan]

This change is just lame. I am boggled that people actually think it is good.

currently: to do 'standard rogue damage', you show up and backstab. If you want to stand out, you can do the farming greens/making vials thing, and get some nice effects that are situationally useful.

with this change: to do 'standard rogue damage', you have to fiddle about buying stuff from merchants, right clicking 40,000 times to raise skills, lugging a bunch of components round, whatever. Everyone has to do that, and there is no way for anyone to do any more to stand out.

Just one more sign that the current EQ team has absolutely no clue as to what makes a game fun and interesting. I _don't want_ powers that makes farming low blues 2% faster. I want skills that make a heroic recovery from a chaotic overpull in a mad dungeon crawl _possible_.

Reminder to verant: there are users sitting in front of the screen, who need things to do. Taking the decision of when/if to apply poison out of the user's hands and making it a random proc is a big step backwards.

Soru

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

"Taking the decision of when/if to apply poison out of the user's hands and making it a random proc is a big step backwards."

You're assuming that they would remove the existing poisons.

There's no reason why poison making can't create both the existing poisons, and new poisons that act as a procbuff.

I personally think that it would be quite cool to be able to poison my weapons so that it fires more than once. Or even better, poison a party member's weapons.

For those who don't want to make poisons, there's this nifty new thing called the bazaar, where people who do make 'em can sell 'em.

You're correct in assuming that if this goes active, then rogues will more or less be 'expected' to be poisonbuffed.

How feasible that will be will depend on the availability of the components.

-- Hika

[Gimik]

&lt;-- looking forward to the change. Gimick
Bixiesbane
60 Assassin
Lotus Cult
Quellious

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

&lt;&lt;This change is just lame. I am boggled that people actually think it is good.>>

I don't know how you can think it's anythin' but good. Finally, somethin' to revolutionize the art of poisonin' that is supposed to be one of the definin' traits of bein' a Rogue. You can't think of anythin' good from it? I can think of a few.

1) Multiple poison chances: How many people have invested time and money into a poison, finally made and applied it, get all excited to use that poison only to have it resisted. All that time seems lost. In a fight there are times where you DON'T have time to reach for another poison. A 10 mintue duration means you have 10 minutes to hit more than one creature with a poison as opposed to a one shot 50/50 chance.

2) Time Consumption: You know how frustratin' it is for some people to have to poison, hit, wait for mob to drop, and then poison again? Personally I can land at least 3 poisons in a fight but some other people can't. And when it comes to certain mobs where you can't sit, Applyin' Poison could mean your life as well as others. 10 minutes is 10 minutes of chances. I'd take that over one dose any day.

3) AA Skill - Poison Mastery: If this change does occur, Poison Mastery will actually be USEFUL. When I first saw that we received Poison Mastery I was upset. I thought Throwin' Mastery would have been more useful considerin' the annoyance of poisonin' at times. This change will give Poison Mastery a reason to be useful. The point of poison mastery is that you ne'er fail at applyin' a poison, you shave up to 50% of time in application, and reduce the chance of failure in poison makin' by up to 50%. End result: More poison chances for ev'ryone.

4) Possibility of Poisonin' Weapons for Others - Imagine that. With AA Skill it's e'en better. Goin' around and poisonin' your groups weapons. It can realistically shave a mob down to size. It can also make battles a lot less intense for mobs with HIGH MR. Most mobs and PC characters relatively have higher MR than PR because Magic is more expected than poison.

5) The Deceit Factor - If someone's poisoned in a fight out of nowhere, who are they gonna blame? I've been a strong believer that Rogues are one of the deadliest classes because a person can ne'er know what to expect from a Rogue.

I can go on and on about the positive factors of this change, especially if they keep the old poisons. The old ones could be used by and for Rogues only while the new ones can be applied to other classes, just like how classes have Self buffs and Group buffs. I'm really lookin' forward to this. It would make a lot of people happy and it would really change a lot of horizons in EQ.

Ishkur Leroux
"Poison. It's what keeps your kitchens clear of rodents."

[EZ_Restyn]

OK ...

1. I don't like the idea of applying for others. This makes rogues in to a walking poison factory for your tanks:

Tank_1: Hey rogue, apply poison for me. I'm twinked out with 255 DEX so I'm better at landing it then you.

Nah, I don't think so. I've said it before, if you're going to allow rogues to poison other weapons, then make the Apply Poison skill affect the chance of proccing.

2. These changes will only help if they are ADDED to the current system, and not in replacement of it.

Cleric_1: Rogue, slow that mob.
Rogue_1: I'm trying, but my poison won't proc!
Cleric_1: The tank is dead and I am hurting!
Rogue_1: Yay! it finally procced!

LOADING, PLEASE WAIT.

Someone suggested earlier that by adding an ingredient to all the poison recipes would be what makes them the buff proc as oppose to the first hit type of thing. That would be good, as it gives us more options.

3. Stackable poisons in your inventory isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen! Assuming these changes go in, a rogue could carry 1 stack of spider venom sacs, 1 stack of vials and 1 stack of suspensions and be "buffed" with Weaken I poison for 150 minutes! Come on. That's great. Add a stack of snake venom sacs and you could "buff" another 150 minutes of Inject I! 300 minutes of "buffed" poisoning with only 4 inventory slots taken up. Please. That rocks as is.

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

Restyn I see where you're comin' from, but at the same time I gotta disagree with that.

I seriously doubt that applyin' poison for other people's weapons would make Rogues a poison factory. That's like sayin' that Shaman's duty is to make potions for people because they're obliged to. Nah, I don't think that will happen and if it does best believe I'm gonna have someone get me supplies or stuff.

I agree with the Apply Poison factor that you've stated and I actually posted my comments on that so check that out and let me know what you think. Personally, Apply Poison right now...sucks. It really doesn't have a purpose accordin' to most people and I believe that it affects your chances of landin' a poison although that hasn't been proven. But yes, Apply Poison has to play a factor in the outcome of poison success. I mean, you can easily poison a level 1 and have 'im take on somethin' a bit higher for PL purposes if Dex is a factor. There has to be a ratio as to what causes poison to connect and I believe that Dex will be a way too easy means in landin' poisons.

I can live with or without stackable. With is overkill. Without is reasonable but e'en with poisons the way they are right now, I carry a bag ready and another bag of ingredients for my battles. So it's not really necessary to stack 'em if this system comes out.

Ishkur Leroux
"I got poisons, I don't need no mana."

[ShadowCross]

I think Kaledan's problem is that he thinks he'll have to farm greens to get poison to be "viable" in a group/raid, as everyone is going to expect rogues to use those procing poisons once they go live.

[EZ_Restyn]

Ishkur,

Yes. I like your idea. Make Apply as part of the equation, but not the whole equation. That way rogues would still rule the land of poisons, but others could do it as well. Nice.

heh heh We should be working for Verant my friend!

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

I seriously doubt that because there are a lot of poisons that are very useful now for raids and such that many people don't use. I've met a vast amount of 50+ Rogues that have their poisonin' at 20 or 36 or some low number. A lot of people are not into it because they think that the damage output that Rogues do is enough. I think this will help get people who are into poisonin' in a large way. But it's like any skill, it takes desire and interest in order to really try it and stick with it. Don't be surprised if some people still think it sucks.

Ishkur Leroux
"Poisonin'. It's a matter of interest."

[EZ_Zanoan]

Well, it's only a matter of time. Leap of rogues just waiting and waiting right now.

What I personally would like to see is ofcourse the poisons being stackable, but mostly the components and how they're obtainable.
A lot of rogues already know the utter thrill of farming No hope moss, heartsting venom sacks or whatever. Besides the fact that the old poisons wasn't that incredible and long lasting anyway.

I also would like to see a few changes with our AA class skill, Poison Mastery. We could all agree that for now it's been relatively useless and only made difference in apply time, so in order to make is more significant for all rogues - you could for an example make it have innate effect on the efficiency of these poisons.

For an example, having 1 skill level into PM would make the usual DD at 75 to 100 instead. Having 2 skill levels would make it 125 and 3rd level would be 150. (Perhaps overpowered yes, could just go in lower numbers. It's the concept.)

___________________

Zanoan Zaw'Arch - 60 Assassin
Mortalis of Antonious Bayle

___________________

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

I would like to see a set of "Core" procpoisons that had vendors for components all over Norrath, and then a set of "rare" poisons that had really kickass effects but had at least one component drop out of an appropriately levelled dungeon.

Talking scaling like:

slow I: 20% slow
slow II: 30% slow
slow III: 40% slow
Slow IV: 60% slow, requires "Thulian Ooze Gland" from random lizards in CT.

That or simply have items that drop in dungeons also be sold on vendors at a considerable markup, so that you are encouraged to either buy from appropriate levelled PCs, or can just spend cash at the vendor.

That way people at the appropriate levels can make XP while farming their practice(and useful!) components, and people who would have to farm greens can just shell out cash instead.


-- Hika

[salyvan]

No matter what form these changes materialize as (or if they do at all....) I REALLY hope they are rogue only...

I would really be upset if Verant made these changes as a "new" ability for bards or high level rangers... >:

Lets all just hope they are going to change poisoning for the better and keep it rogue exclusive

Salyvan TicklefingersEdited by: Salyvan at: 7/29/02 3:35:56 pm

[EZ_Prodigious]

eh the new spells are self-only, there won't be any applying on others :P

i have a feeling it'll be for PoP though, don't see them coming up with new npc's / drops for the recipes

[EZ_Vaclav Romanov]

Won't it be a horrid kicker though if they are PoP and are actually diety restricted clickables for any class? Especially some rarely played one... (Like Bertox)

Nothing says for sure these are even rogue poisons at all, they do look like the old poisons and I certainly hope they're rogue poisons - but don't be shocked if they end up being something else...

[EZ_Kaledan]

Quote:
I think Kaledan's problem is that he thinks he'll have to farm greens to get poison to be "viable" in a group/raid, as everyone is going to expect rogues to use those procing poisons once they go live.


No, my assumption is that these poisons will be made from a brand new set of components sold on some newly added merchants, and the products combined to make stackable poisons. Because these are really just potions, casting a buff spell when clicked on, the stacking issues affecting the old poison system won't apply.

This is exactly what Verant did with alchemy - they listened to peoples complaints about the old alchemy system, and instead of tweaking it, scrapped it completely and replaced it with something worse.

Without poisons, rogues do 1.4 times warrior damage. With poisons, rogues will do 1.5 times warrior damage for a week or two, until warriors get another upgrade to restore the status quo.

Net result zero, except that the game just got that little bit more trivial, and the pointless busywork (buying components and combining them) required to play went up.

Soru

[ShadowCross]

and the pointless busywork (buying components and combining them) required to play went up.

This is only the fact if you think that using poisons will be REQUIRED for you - which it isn't. Noone will force you to use them. Unless of course I am right in saying that you fear that poisons will be expected of rogues - both in pickup groups and raids.

[EZ_Kaledan]

Quote:
Unless of course I am right in saying that you fear that poisons will be expected of rogues - both in pickup groups and raids


What would you say if you grouped with a shaman who refused to buff the group?

If poisons are hideously expensive, rare drops from greens, or non-stackable, there's no problem. But if, as I suspect, they will be easy to get, then they will be mandatory.

Soru

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

I highly doubt that they will become mandatory...

Poisons aren't like Peridots in which you can go to your nearest Peridot vendor and buy stacks of them and be on your merry way. Look at it this way. There are 4 main poison vendors in NORRATH and I'm not includin' the ones in Fironia Vie and Thurgadin for a reason. And mind you, notice that they're all spread out in far and remote places. I WISH I could go and buy suspensions in Neriak but that ain't happenin'.

It won't become mandatory because you're dealin' with an array of combinations for different effects and different situations. And it's not like people are gonna give cash gems to Rogues to help fund for poisonin'. As for the Shaman comment, that's MANA. That's NOT ingredients. Two different subjects for two different thin's. But ya know what? If these thin's go live and my guild decides to make it mandatory by some freak miracle, I'm gonna make sure they provide funds for poisons.

Ishkur Leroux
"Poisonin' is a choice. Not a demand."

[ShadowCross]

What would you say if you grouped with a shaman who refused to buff the group?

Not really a good example.

Better examples would be clerics not having peridots on them, or shamans not doing alchemy or an ench not casting clarity on himself...

IF groups expect rogues to use those proccing poisons, rogues should be granted the same amount of gems that clerics get... to cover the cost.

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Quote: Net result zero, except that the game just got that little bit more trivial, and the pointless busywork (buying components and combining them) required to play went up

The net result is not zero - the mobs still die faster. We're not competing against each other, we're fighting the monsters. (This of course for PvE servers.)

Quote: If poisons are hideously expensive, rare drops from greens, or non-stackable, there's no problem. But if, as I suspect, they will be easy to get, then they will be mandatory.

If they're easy to get, then what's the problem?

From what I'm reading, we have the potential here of having some very nice new tools added to our arsenal, and you're unhappy about them because you think that people will expect you to use them. I have to admit I'm not following the logic here.

If it's a pain to do, nobody will expect you to do it. If it is easy to do, then it won't take much effort. So either way I'm not seeing the issue, beyond perhaps that you don't want to spend the time skilling up to be in a position to use it.

While it does take some time and/or effort and/or plat to skill up, I don't think that's a good reason to not want to see an improvement made. I'm not trying to be inflammatory when I say that it's almost saying "I don't want this improvement to the class because I'm too lazy to take advantage of it but people will expect me to." If you want to play the class to its fullest, you have to put in some effort, and if you don't want to put in the effort, then you accept the fact that you won't have all the abilities another rogue will.

It's no different from AA skills - put in the time, get the abilities.

But it seems a bit odd to me to say "No hold the whole class back just because I don't want to have to deal with this."

It's entirely possible however I'm misinterpreting things of course, in which case I welcome clarification.

Osprey
Assassin
Triad ContinuumEdited by: KayleighDrake at: 7/30/02 11:08:28 am

[EZ_TibisHatter]

These new effects are looking better and better every time I visit them, I must admit.

The impact of Poisons v3, if it comes about, will depend on which of several different scenarios of accessibility to the ingredients and the costs involved per dose actually materialise.

1. Easily accessed ingredients, low cost: Rogues would probably be expected to use poisons virtually all the time; at raids, in XP groups, anywhere. Rogues without good poisoning abilities may well end up at a disadvantage. If you could carry multiple doses of a finished poison in one slot ("stackable" for this discussion) then rogues will find it greatly advantageous to carry a range of effects with them. Soloing will become easier (or possible for some) and may even be economic.

2. Easily accessed ingredients, high cost: Well-off rogues and rogues in upper-tier guilds who are willing to help fund the cost of making poisons will be at an advantage in this situation. Some education will be needed so people understand that if they want the rogue to use poison, they need a decent cut of the plat items, the same way that if you want symbols and aegolism from a cleric, they need plat to pay for peridots. The same soloing possibilities exist, but will be a lot less economic.

3. Rare ingredients, low cost: The high playtime and well connected rogue will be advantaged here. With time and friends to farm the ingredients, they can get the poisons made more readily, even if they're not particularly well-off. With the Bazaar and some education, rogues might be able to pick up ingredients for sale, although the price that might be set may well kick poisons into category (4) for those without the time or support to farm the ingredients themselves. Poisons would be generally be reserved for larger fights; soloing with poisons would be rarer as the restricted availability of ingredients would cause problems with the number of finished poisons that would be available for this activity.

4. Rare ingredients, high cost: Probably the scenario we dread the most. At this point, only those rogues with financial and ingredient farming support would expect to use poisons on a regular basis. Depending on whether the new poisons displace the old ones or not, raising Make Poison skill could become very difficult, and certainly out of the cost reach of the "average" rogue. Poisons would generally get reserved for very difficult encounters - if they are effective on them, that is. If the poisons are rare, expensive and ineffective on those encounters where it's worth using them, they will not be used at all. Soloing with poisons would be rare as the cost involved and the difficulties involved in getting the ingredients would make it unviable in most peoples eyes.

There are probably other scenarios, but that's what I can think of for now.

[EZ_Restyn]

Quote: Depending on whether the new poisons displace the old ones or not
I think that right there will be the main deciding factor. I’m with Tibis in that the more I think about these changes and look at these changes the more I like them, provided, they do not completely replace the old system. There is something to be said about knowing you will land that slow poison in your first hit (whether it is resisted is another matter).

I for one would like to see VI simply add a new type of poison component. Lets call it a thickening agent. A different type of thickening agent for each tier, added to any recipe of that tier, makes the poison into this new “self buff” poison. This thickening agent could be brewed (like Heady Kiola only more difficult) or mixed with Make Poison or simply bought. This thickening agent then could be easy to come by at Tier I, but VERY hard at Tier IV and V … thereby combining a few of Tibis’ scenarios. A casual rogue could easily get a Tier I self buff, but only those with connections and resources could get a Tier V self buff.

Leaving the old recipes intact, this would allow us many more choices. Do I want a lower dmg proc poison or a higher dmg first strike?

It’s all speculation, but it does get my juices flowing

[EZ_Restyn]

So, I'm looking at the buffs again and most of them have this line:

Quote: Changed Range from 100 to 200
Dare I ask it, but doesn't that sound like poisoning thrown weapons might happen?

[EZ_TibisHatter]

If they added a "thickening agent", what's the betting (with recent trends) that it's some kind of mana vial?

[EZ_Restyn]

Gah Tibis! Don't go givin' them ideas!

The last thing we need is the rogue community dependent on 'chanters!

[EZ_Ishkur Leroux]

The Ranged part scares me, as much as I would like Poisoned weapons to be Throwable. That means that it can also be shot via arrows and there's that possiblity of Rangers gettin' it. I hope not, I SERIOUSLY hope not. Then again, I doubt that cuz Rangers get enough with their spells, Trueshot, Endless Quiver, and the fact that their arrows in itself can do triple digits with Crit.

I just hope Verant doesn't mess this up. This is somethin' that Rogues have been wantin' for a while now.

Ishkur Leroux
"Don't drop the ball."

[EZ_Restyn]

I think IF we get it, it should be for thrown and not for arrows. We get crits with thrown after all. Makes sense to keep it in the family so to speak

I worry that thrown poisons though will make us to similar to spell casters ... but at the same time I would love to be able to throw a poison dagger

[EZ_meyekal]

What has convinced people that this is a rework of poisons? This could ver well be changes/additions to rangers as mentioned above. Maybe I am missing something that others are not, or are we still at the stage of positive thinking ?

[EZ_TibisHatter]

We don't have any definite statements that this is indicitive of a poison revamp, but consider the following pieces of circumstantial evidence:

Firstly most of these effects are strongly analagous to the existing lines of effects our poisons have.

Secondly, if you look at the spell effects which add the proc buff to you, they have titles such as "Strike III Poison" with descriptive text such as "Soandso's blade glistens with poison" and "The poison dries up".

Thirdly, those same spell effects recently had their class / level requirements changed to "None".

Fourthly, we are aware that the chap at Verant who is responsible for all things of a tradeskill nature, Dan Enright I believe, has said that he really does want to overhaul poison. There was a vague hint that we might even see it before PoP.

While this isn't conclusive, it does look promising and, well, hope does spring eternal for those of us who have persevered with this skill over the years.

[Pyrocat Moonstalker]

"This is somethin' that Rogues have been wantin' for a while now."

understatement of the thread.

This is extremely exciting... but, don't get your hopes up!

edit:typo/grammar "The walls are melting again..."

"Magic Kool-Aid FOREVER!"
Pyre Moonstalker lvl 53 Lizard Theif/Mage/Assasin ~Morrowind~
Traverse Moonstalker 51 Wanderer (retired) ~Everquest~
Blackitty Pantheramoon 52 Rake (retired) ~Everquest~
[ Contemplative Ramblings ]
- King of useless repliesEdited by: Pyrocat Moonstalker at: 8/2/02 12:31:24 pm

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

On throwing/range:

You have to stop thinking about the physics of poison, and think about the game engine. You are using an item to put a proc on yourself. That proc can go off, if memory serves, on ANY attack, and that includes ranged weapons. It's on YOU, not the weapon.

Of course there is the possiblity that a) I am misremembering, or b) that they'll code something specific. But this key thing about this revamp/scenario is that it could require no changes to the game engine code, so the idea of adding code to implement seems counterproductive, though not impossible.

Indeed if there aren't a few minor code changes, some odd things can happen.
Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_Restyn]

Hmm. From a roleplaying angle that would suck. You apply poison once, and then stab a critter and throw a dagger at another one. Which weapon was that poison exactly?

I hate to think that these are going to be added simply to allow for thrown weapons, or arrows for Rangers. Grr...if rangers get poisoned arrows and we don't get anything ... grrr

[EZ_KayleighDrake]

Restyn you just leaped ahead about fifty conclusions from where I'm sitting.

1. I think we're all pretty sure this has nothing to do with rangers. All the buff spells got set to class "none" on the 26th.

2. Assuming I'm remembering right, their proc spells would already do this so it'd be nothing new for them anyway.

3. Why would you think these were being added just to allow for thrown weapons?

It's an artifact of the game engine that a proc derived from a spell - a character-proc if you will, ends up going off on any attack the character does, be it melee, piercing, slashing, archery, throwing, etc. It may not make sense from a roleplaying angle but neither does respawning at your bind point. The fact is that if you want to change poison, you can either do something working within the existing engine (which is easier, hence faster and cheaper and doesn't require programmers) or you can change the engine (which is none of those things).

4. If rangers got these, it would proc on regular weapons as well as their archery, so it's not just "poisoned arrows".

At this point, I'm completely convinced this has nothing to do with rangers, and I'm fairly convinced that this is our poison revamp. What remains to be seen is how hard they are to make.


Osprey
Assassin
Triad Continuum

[EZ_Restyn]

Sorry for the worrying Osprey ... I was wired on coffee this morning when I wrote that

You're right about the roleplaying/game engine. Designers have to work with what they got I guess.

I'm hopeful this is the re-vamp as well.

[EZ_Tinamor Rogue]

was reading around EQtraders and found someone posted this about poison and the fan faire.

"Dan also talked about recipes in-the-works that would make traditional one-shot poisons except they would have an effect with a specific duration in minutes or tics instead of the current poison effects."

Sounds good to me

link to the post is here: pub126.ezboard.com/feqtra...=364.topic

Tinamor

[EZ_Erani MT]

If they made the poison proc more often the higher your Apply Poison was, wouldn't that mess up the folks who have really low Apply but have the Poison Mastery AA?

...Or does Apply Poison still go up even if you have the AA?
EraniSareineKerii

[EZ_Keyan Xtekin]

I was at the Fan Faire in Boston and I was one of the people drilling Dan about Tradeskills and Make Poison.

He confirmed a number of things. These two points i found most interesting:

1) He confirmed that on Test server right at this very moment there are new poisons which act as "buffs" with a duration and they will stay with you through zoning.

2) Make poison is affected by INT, WIS, or DEX, whichever is highest.

So has anyone had a chance to check out what they could find about this on the test server?


Keyan
56 Rogue - The Rathe
Swords for Hire Edited by: Keyan Xtekin at: 8/8/02 4:56:12 pm

[EZ_Kenuvan]

pardon my lack of enthusiasm over having to farm 3 hours to make a "one-shot" potion that lasts 15 minutes, maybe those making these effects could research how long it takes to make one of these "one-shot" poisons and make the duration last at least that long, add in zone times, begging for teleports and running between poison vendors to this time. Thanks

[DarthEnder]

I'd really rather they took out the old poisons entirely.

If you have to rely on a proc for your effect, it makes Dex important for a rogue to have. And dex should be important for rogues for roleplay reasons.

And, if I was expected to have one "instant proc" poison, to make sure that the mob was slowed then I could use my "proc buff" poison, guess what. Poison STILL goes UNUSED. Because no one can carry a single charge of a poison for EVERY mob they have to kill. Thats the problem we have RIGHT NOW. The only people who will continue to use the old poisons are the masochists that use them now.

Not to mention the lazy coding problems that are inherent with all the old poisons. Lack of stackability or chargability being chief among them.

On an aside, the main difference between say, poison making, and alchemy, is that, while expensive, all alchemy ingrediants can be purchased from vendors. I'd much rather I had to buy ingredients from poison vendors than spend hours farming green mobs, even if the ingredients were expensive. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 8/8/02 8:54:58 pm

[EZ_Kenuvan]

Quote: On an aside, the main difference between say, poison making, and alchemy, is that, while expensive, all alchemy ingrediants can be purchased from vendors. I'd much rather I had to buy ingredients from poison vendors than spend hours farming green mobs, even if the ingredients were expensive.

me too =)

maybe the tuners should make this consideraiton :

lets say we have to spend 3 hours farming/traveling through skyfire, lavastorm and karana to collect components for 5 poison combines... of those combines lets say we fail 2.. we now have 3 poisons lets say we fail apply on one of the 3, now we have 2 poisons, from 3 hours effort.. that last 15 minutes each.. rewarding, i am happy

but we cant really start complaining yet, lets see how they turn out on test, and then on live, much tuning will be given to it and lots of hard work will be put into making sure its great for everyone i'm sure, its just a track record you can expect from VI

[EZ_AddoPovar]

Please, don't say that they "should" take out the old poisons because the only ones who would use them are the ones that use poison today.

The ones that use poison today are not non-existent... also, if you have both one-shot poisons and self-proc poisons, they might use some of the same ingredients (like poison vials). That way, the self-proc poisons might help learn some people who do not use poison today to keep a hold of poison ingredients which they come upon by accident in normal fighting, to use them in one-shot poisons since they are already carrying mortar and other ingredients anyway.

[EZ_Restyn]

Call me greedy. I want both. I want to be able to apply a DD proc "buff" poison that I can use for 15 minutes, but also have the option of applying a "next hit" slow/snare poison.

And for the record, it amazes me how many people complaining about the hours of farming for ingredients. Why farm when you can just hit the merchants? Generally, you can find a good assortment of dropped ingredients on merchants.

[DarthEnder]

Why would I want to run to newbie zones all over the world to MAYBE find some poison ingredients for sale when Alchemists can go to any town with shamans guild and buy every component they ever need.

[EZ_Restyn]

I never said it was fair

[EZ_Jarnin]

Quote: Why would I want to run to newbie zones all over the world to MAYBE find some poison ingredients for sale when Alchemists can go to any town with shamans guild and buy every component they ever need.

Would you rather spend tons of plat making poisons, or saving quite a bit by farming? And buy the way, the bazaar wil really help out buying stuff for all kinds of tradeskills, and not just poison.

Think about it like this: If no one on your server is farming poison ingredients now, they will be if there's a market for them. If rogues buy the stuff, lower level players will sell the stuff in the bazaar. The higher demand, the more players will sell the stuff, until you get some decent competition, which will bring the prices down. All in all, you could possibly end up making one trip to the bazaar to get the items you need.

[DarthEnder]

I'd rather spend tons of plat to make poisons than lots of time.

Cause then, after every raid, I can expect a piece of that "peridot fund" pie that clerics get.

[EZ_VinseClortho]

You really think they're gonna hook up the rogues? We're nothing but common thiefs.

Have you ever gotten a new discipline and said hmmm the older discipline is actually better I think I'll stick with that one?

CR in many high end scenarios comes down to coffins cause Verant likes to slip in the one mob in the path to your destination that see's through sneak.

Throwing HA who has ever decided to throw instead of melee? Sure you can poison a few throwing items but those are almost as annoying to farm as the poisons themselves. For a month or two they had every throw from a rogue a crit or deadly which makes sense if I've been doing it for 55 dang levels and I'm suppose to be the best class at it and even with the crits and deadlies they were chump feed compared to the pigstickers. Now I'm back to 5dps or 100+melee.

Is there another class where key items to their success are not stackable? Sure you say carry a stack of ingredients which is fine in many cases, but what about blind where you need the burned out lightstones? If you're already wasting the day farming why not be able to finish it off and get a true assessment of how many poisons you have. Besides I like the extra room for carrying my booze. They've already got me limited down to 200 drinks an escapade.

20 minutes farming; 10 plat supplies; successfully created
Your target has resisted your futile Tier IV poison. These poisons were mainly meant for PvP scenarios and not intended for mobs. Feel free to continue wasting ingredients and time on this mob no matter how many times you stick him each will get resisted. This has been a message from VI thankyou. (AHH Little thought here wouldn't the more poison you stick in the mob kinda add the chances of the poison taking effect? Somehow the previous doses of poison just seeped right back out of the body.)

I have seen someone that destroyed the ragebringer and is using weapons from Luclin with a CoF because the dps was greater. What other class would even consider destroying their epic? We're supposedly the damage class but our epic holds us back from reaching the highest dps?

Now there's talk of making the poison a proc'n buff ... are you foolish enough to think you're going to get more out of the poison that you would with a one time shot? You think they're going to make Mind Melt able to be used for 100DDam and stun 15 times during a horrendous 10 minute battle? That triples the output on damage for the poison and makes an extra 14 stuns. I get the feeling this will only spam the hell out of us with resist messages instead.

I'd rather have the ability to forage a poison than for you to try to nerf it down to be able to fit into a 15 min proc slot. Or have the guards in Firona Vie not be able to see through the walls so one can successfully sneak in and buy supplies rather than sit at the zoneline and act as a common beggar. Even if we just have the poison stick for the duration it's suppose to on a mob as it does in PVP would be a great improvement.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Verant start to take some considerations to the rogues to make them a little more special. I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that any type of change will actually be a good change in the long run if it comes from the hands of Verant. We've been a very comical whippin boy for them though, just like the oxymoron of a warrior holding agro. Take a look at our class abilities /sigh
Verant is like a level one ranger when it comes to figuring out how to grant a rogue's wishes. Always shooting at the wrong target and missing whatever they're shooting at in the process.


I do love my rogue though and wouldn't trade him for any other class.

[EZ_Kenuvan]

so a month and a half in the making, a huge game changing patch with multiple class enhancements...


and still no sign of contact poisons..

*picks up his pitchfork*

[EZ_Kenuvan]

or maybe someone is looking?

the contact poisons were renamed in the spdat:

Sint of the Shissar
Bite of the Shissar
Mental Burn
Mental Implosion
Withering Flesh
Wasted Flesh
Minor Irritation
Oozing Irritation
Zombie Bane
Mayong's Bane
Itching Madness ( Itchy and Scratchy huh?)
Scratching Madness
Spine Bruiser
Spine Rend
Anger of Incapacitation
Rage of Incapacitation
Bixie Sting
Scoriae Bite
Crushed Vein
Mangled Tendon
Confusing Whisper
Dreams of Drusella

Also while checking stacking here is some interesting stuff:

The resist debuff appears to stack with all existing debuffs (cool and useful)

The dots dont appear to stack with anything on the necro line of fire dots (funeral pyre, pyrocure etc..)

The mana sieve dots appear to stack with everything.

The Str/Dex debuff and Debuff + Hate reduce poisons dont appear to stack with cripple, however you should still get hate reduction, wouldnt matter however if cripple is available, you can simply use the single hate reducer poison proc.

All in all, i am impressed, lets see if this goes live and how it works out. Edited by: Kenuvan at: 9/5/02 2:28:55 pm

[DarthEnder]

Make sure to laugh at your guildmate who destroyed his Ragebringer when Epic IIs come out in PoP and he needs it to do the quest.

[EZ_Armethis]

Why? Will take him a whole 4 hours to get another one =p




Taroek Demonblood, 52 garden implement, 201 make poison
Baron Armethis Delight | Hierophant of Tunare & Husband of Applefritters Delight | Darkblood

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

they wont give us this stuff. we're *sarcasm* insanely over powered...

[DarthEnder]

I'm so glad they took the time to code it just to decide not to give it to us.

Unfortunatly, I look at the names of some of the poisons, and I suspect these will be very HIGH level poisons. Meaning I'm still stuck with the old ones. The shissar ones will probably take shizzar venom sacks.

That means the only poisons WORTH doing are gonna be the ones you couldn't farm if you want to. Gonna have to ask the people on your next emp raid to hold onto sacs for you.

How retarded.

[EZ_Teeppas Oozentoxxin]

Quote: Gonna have to ask the people on your next emp raid to hold onto sacs for you.
Undead Shissar Venom Sacs and Shissar Venom Sacs are No Drop items.

I am excited about these. Can not wait to see how they are implemented.



Teeppas Oozentoxxin
Grandmaster Toxicologist
Assassin of Eternal Sovereign
Tholuxe Paells

[EZ_Slott Matchyn]

shissar venom sacks are tradable and stackable, so you're wrong ;p(both live and dead)

[EZ_Teeppas Oozentoxxin]

My bad. They used to be nodrop. Been a bit since I actually dusted them off and looked at them I guess.


Teeppas Oozentoxxin
Grandmaster Toxicologist
Assassin of Eternal Sovereign
Tholuxe Paells

[Vendrengha Noble]

I have a wish in regards to a change to poisons.

As the situation is today I am very low on inventory space (renewed need for resist kit). So I'd like for us to get a magical tome in which we can 'scribe' components once for each. Then the properties of the book will free us from endless farming and wasting inventory space, by allowing us to drag an icon to a component mixer bar.

Most of the code can be reused from spellcasters and remember, all spell casters are mostly free from having to lug obscene amounts of components around to be able to cast. I'd like for that to happen for us as well.


Vendrengha A'CeldamiusMarauder
Strive to achieve excellence, even though the road be laden with thorns.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

bah just make us casters that only get one type of spells: spells that poison our weapon slot. faster easier change then adding in bunch of new stuff and solves the omg you want me to spend what? farm where? to get to do anything besides dps?. if they want they can have it be a component based casting. that gets rid of most of the headache makes poisons more practical. no skin farming. just component farming. when you cast it takes a component your off and running.

[Dikus]

Hiho all,

1. §%§&amp;§$&amp;%$ Verant! Finally they changed the poison system and what they do: they nerfed the Zek servers....
(first hit check poison was fine / Proc will be worthless in PvP)

2. When we get poison buff procs someone will say me what with weapon procs then happens in that time ?
(Would be sad if a proc like Tendonslice, Kalshazars Deceit or even a Bloodpoint wont proc in the poison buff proc or ?)

3. As a suggestion I would say lets have a fleeting pouch where you can stack 4 Poisons that never! will be used up its poisons. Only put weapon on one poison in that pouch and you get a buff.

The Poisoner´s Pouch could be a form like a quest or more typical: Like a AA exp point. (Thinking of Rangers Fleeting Quiver)


Moreover one thing to mention: If throwing effects the poison buff and we are (like me) getting the dusty soriz worker pouch with summon the Uber throwing Shissar Fangs (with the insane delay) I would finally as good in Kiting as some other ppl are...
(which suits me as I still depend my bandage skill for healing myself)
Dikus Dunkelbier

[EZ_Weben]

felt froggy today, so ran over to FoB to farm some hearsting venom sacs for the tierIII paralyze from the scorps/hearstings....and must have been there a bit over an hour, killing hundreds...without a single sac. crazy crazy...makes me never want to use poison again, just because farming most of the ingredients is just stupid.

[Le Chevalier Blanc]

Quote: bah just make us casters that only get one type of spells: spells that poison our weapon slot. While I'm pretty confident they will never ever implement poisons this way, I do like the idea...

-Le Chevalier Blanc
Barbarian Assassin of 60 winters, Erollisi Marr

[EZ_GreymousePlatfinger]

Great idea Dikus!
they could even leave the farming situation as is with such a pouch. such a pouch would not appear to violate the unstackable poison problem that VI insists is real. Such a pouch would make the poison mastery skill quite attractive instead of dubious... Im all for it, thats actually the best poison idea ive heard in a long time and the Rangers have already proved the concept.
I hope VI reads this stuff

[EZ_Katharina Matare]

A 55+ lev quest for a poison pouch like this sounds like a good idea. It would still take time to apply poison, so in long fights we loose regular damage if we use this. Look at it as an upgrade to soloing rogues. Katharina MatareAssassin on Tunare Officer of the Tide

[EZ_Zanoan]

just give us the damn poisons already why wait for Pop %)?(/!=)% ___________________

Zanoan Zaw'Arch - 60 Assassin
Mortalis of Antonious Bayle

___________________

[DarthEnder]

Bah, I'm not a caster for a reason. I don't like lookin at books. And I don't like using "mana". So please don't make poisons cast like spells.

Much as I like the idea of bottomless poison vials it sounds overpowering.

[EZ_Bronus Blackblade]

Great info. Availablility of the components should not determine the relative "power" of an ability. Making a questable 8 slot "endless quiver" style poison container would be too sweet with these potential new poisons . Make it really hard to acquire if you want, but give us something cool like that to shoot for! Bronus Blackblade - Assassin

Mystin De`Vermiis - Enchanter

"Try walking my shoes, you'll stumble in my footsteps..."

[Pyrocat Moonstalker]

sorry if this is old news, scroll down to Rogue.

http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/pop.asp

[EZ_Darkdirk Devertibrator]

With these new DD proc poisons, might it be possible to deal more damage with procs than with weapons?

I know if I have focus and imp form and am using 2 blood points it often seems like I am doing more damage with procs. One time I got siphon, siphon, nuke, siphon, nuke, siphon all in a row. Imagine having a 100 DD proc to go with all of that. I can easily imagine a flurry of procs dealing 800 damage or more.

It's time for me to start working on poisons now. I think these new poisons look very promising.

55 rogue
poisons--134
Pottery--198

[Underdawg Darogue]

I can do over 800 in a single hit. procs will never outdmg rogue melee.