View Full Version : Full faith and credit
EZ_Ciba
02-26-04, 09:15 AM
Does anyone know a legel precedent for this applying to marriage but not to CWP's (concealed weapons permits)?
This is a serious question. If I married a guy in a state which recognized it, all other states would be required to. If I were licensed to carry a weapon in Washington, I would not have the same legal status in New York.
EZ_BD Nightfall
02-26-04, 09:21 AM
Are you male or female?
Llabak Tharr
02-26-04, 09:33 AM
Not being a lawyer, I don't know the truth of the matter. Perhaps one of our lawyers could comment on this. On my drive into the office today I heard someone (a lawyer) make the statement that Full Faith and Credit has had exceptions in the past, and therefore not every state would be required to accept gay marriages if they didn't want to.
Again, I'm not even remotely versed in the case law so don't know. It doesn't surprise me though. I suspect that had a slave owner from Florida taken a slave with him on a trip to Massachusetts, the slave would likely have been 'freed' by his presence in the non-slave state. I might be wrong about that, but that's my gut feeling.
EZ_Andorion
02-26-04, 09:34 AM
I don't think this is a gay-marriage thread, she's asking a different question =)
~Berj
*edit* or I might be totally wrong. If this is a gay-marriage thread, keep in mind the legality of licenses being handed out in Sac is still in question. Edited by: Andorion at: 2/26/04 8:35 am
EZ_Urusai
02-26-04, 09:42 AM
I agree, I think her real question was about concealed weapon permits.
Im no lawyer either but I beleive wedding licenses are given at a fedral level so it is a federal license. Hence it has validity in all states.
Concealed Weapons Permits however are State Licenses (Kind of like hunting licenses) and are only valid in the state they are issued in.
I think thats how it works anyway.
*Edit* Now I think I misread it myself.. Im not sure what your asking either. Edited by: Urusai at: 2/26/04 8:44 am
Llabak Tharr
02-26-04, 09:55 AM
Marriage licenses are state given.
Ciba is a guy.
This is about gay marriage.
That sums it up pretty well I'm thinking
Biggwin
02-26-04, 10:07 AM
No not all other states would allow you to have a CWP by just getting one in your state.
There might be a federal level CWP that you could get that would be Nation Wide, but the everyday CWP that normal Joe Schmoz can get are not National.
As for other states recognizing your Marriage License there has to be some sort of federal law to that fact. I how ever do not know how this applies to Gay marriages
It took Google 0.30 seconds to tell me what states a Florida CCW permit is good in.
Llabak Tharr
02-26-04, 10:26 AM
Bah, Indiana residents aren't allowed to carry stun guns, knives or billy clubs in a concealed manner? I'm calling my congressmen! Billy clubs for everyone!!!
EZ_sindel
02-26-04, 10:28 AM
Well I asked my Fiance who is a cop here in NY. For non law enforcement people, there are only 9 states that a NY ccw permit is valid in the us, and there are still restrictions on how the weapon is being transported.
For law enforcement personal, there are 5 states his permit is NOT valid at all in even if he is on duty.
There are 7 states he can carry his weapon regardless of being on or off duty.
All of the other states He can carry as long as he's on duty. If he's off no can do.
There are further restrictions in NY depending if you purchased the weapon in NYC or not, which I found rather interesting. I never asked him about this before, I just assumed he allways had the damn thing with him regardless.
But anyway, He told me he belives the only people that are allowed to carry regardless of state are federal agents and certain special forces armed forces divions.
Edited by: sindel at: 2/26/04 9:35 am
EZ_Ciba
02-26-04, 10:51 AM
This thread is not about gay marriage. It is about when full faith and credit does and does not apply.
Full faith and credit is a clause in the constitution that if one state recognizes a legal status, all the states must recognize that legal status. My curiosity is why this clause is hit-or-miss.
For those of you that say "google it". That does not apply to full faith and credit. These are reciprocal agreements between states.
EZ_LordOfChains
02-26-04, 11:23 AM
Far as I can tell,
Marriage is a "Legal Status"
Not being a slave is a "Legal Status"
A Concealed Weapon License is a "Permit"
The only way I'm thinkin' a person can go from one state to another state with a concealed weapon license is if the home state and destination state have a reciprocity agreement that allows the permit from one state to work in the other, useful for states that have similar/same concealed weapons laws.
If you're caught with a concealed weapon in a state that doesn't allow such a thing... your booty is now mulch. Just having the license from another state really doesn't help you, I figure. Best thing to do is just read up on relevant laws and statutes of a particular state before you enter said state... you'd be a fool not too, really. 'Cuz I'm Psycho Like That...
EZ_Grinkle
02-26-04, 11:36 AM
What about discrepancies in legal driving age? I'm not sure any still exist, but I'm sure they used to - maybe today its 16 in every state, so a moot point.
EZ_LordOfChains
02-26-04, 12:21 PM
I think driving age is pretty much universal in all the states, but I'm not quite certain.
Traffic violations and ticket fines might be handled differently tho...
"But I only got a 50 dollar fine in Kansas, what's this 100 dollar bull@#$%?!"
"You're not in Kansas anymore..." 'Cuz I'm Psycho Like That...
EZ_Gannab
02-26-04, 12:31 PM
Quote:Bah, Indiana residents aren't allowed to carry stun guns, knives or billy clubs in a concealed manner? I'm calling my congressmen! Billy clubs for everyone!!!
No problem, just make sure you wave your billy club around for all to see!
EZ_Jeshter Daggerfury
02-26-04, 12:43 PM
Unless they changed it in the past few years legal driving age in Montana is 15, with permits at 14.
Marauder Jeshter Daggerfury
65th Deceiver
Arcane Ascension
My Equipment
Caowyth
02-26-04, 01:08 PM
Quote:Marriage is a "Legal Status"
Not being a slave is a "Legal Status"
A Concealed Weapon License is a "Permit"
Last time I checked 'Marriage' was a license issued by the state. The legal status bit applies to certain rights/privileges affored to those with the license.
The same would be true with a permit to carry concealed. The rights and privileges associated with the concealed weapons permit are a bit more limited in scope.
Cao
EZ_Ciba
02-26-04, 01:11 PM
Lord of chains, marriage is just as much a permit as CWP is. You get a license authorizing you to get married. You get a license authorizing you to carry a firearm.
I believe driver's licenses are recognized through reciprocity agreements, not full faith and credit.
Any attorneys know? Lisboa?
Caowyth
02-26-04, 01:23 PM
I'm pretty certain that Driver's licenses are covered under reciprocity agreements as well.
I can't find the specific agreements that cover this, but I know that not all states respect the laws of other states on licenses. Specifically, some states have an older minimum driving age and will not accept an out-of-state license from someone beneath that age.
EZ_MorrellVZ
02-26-04, 04:11 PM
Just to make clear, a State is a State of the Union, and a state is a nation(federal gov't).
To me, it's part practical, part jurisdictional. The justification for gun permits not crossing is related to the States' police powers, i.e. they have the right to regulate behavior in their own State. Certain gun laws are allowed to be passed by the States. A State also has the right to oversee its land and properties, which is why hunting/fishing permits aren't covered under the full faith and credit clause. Certain other things are protected by the state, though. Driver's liscences are universal because it would be impractical for the freedom to travel to be upheld and yet having everyone get liscenced in every State. Getting married in every State would be impractical too, especially when things like the Defense of Marriage Act make marriage much more limited and defined.
So Full Faith and Credit, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, relates to where the jurisdiction of States lay. States have jursidiction over gun laws and their territory. However, some things are universal, such as travel and marriage.
If we do start breaking marriage license reciprosity, is an affair (or a second marriage) in a state where you are legally single legimate grounds for divorce?
EZ_nekoken
02-26-04, 05:25 PM
For Washington state:
www.packing.org/state/ind...washington
Alaska Idaho Indiana Kentucky Michigan Montana Oklahoma Tennessee Utah Virginia
Narsse Nekoken
EZ_LordOfChains
02-26-04, 05:34 PM
Quote:Last time I checked 'Marriage' was a license issued by the state.
See, my primary reasoning is that "Marriage" has been around a lot longer than "Marriage Licenses." The marriage license is really nothing but a formality, I figure.
Take Common Law marriages, for instance. If you live with such and such a person for such and such an established period of time, you are considered "Married" without jack in the way of paperwork. (One fellow was rather surprised at this aspect when he had to pay his live-in girlfriend alimony when they broke up after a two year relationship)
Now, if we're talking "Civil Unions", I really don't have a clue what the rules are for those... 'Cuz I'm Psycho Like That...
EZ_Grinkle
02-27-04, 05:17 AM
So superimposing practicality with a state's need for self-governance without being held accountable to the decisions of other states probably yields the common sense perspective that a driver's liscense held by a person of legal driving age in the state he is currently driving in is valid, no matter the state of issue. If the person is not of legal driving age in the state he is currently driving in, his liscense to drive that was issued by another state is not valid.
Hmmm. Seems like that's one clause in the constitution that we is pretty much ignored, and states do what seems pragmatic, regardless. I guess having the clause at all made more sense in the days prior to strong fedralism, where states felt much more like independant entities and might, for reasons of pride or ego, simply refuse to honor any document they had not themselves issued. It would give the federal gov't a chance to enforce some common sense items, should they have needed it. It could have also been a way to avoid fedralising all paperwork. Jefferson didn't want to be bothered with the feds taking care of marriage liscenses simply to make them valid across the whole country, so he put that clause in.
I wonder what the most common docs were in the late 18th century. What piece of state-issued paper besides a marriage liscenses would anyone even have ever had?
Thinking about it, the framers MUST have been talking specifically about marriage liscenses when they wrote that. Maybe not only about them, but certainly at least about them.
EZ_Varia
02-27-04, 06:23 AM
I havent read all the thread so it may have already been mentioned, but- As an american citizen you have a constitutional right to bear arms so "full faith and credit" applies and all the states I believe have to honor any states firearms licenses. However, you do NOT have a constitutional right to bear CONCEALED arms, so FFaC doesnt apply to CWPs and each state can make its own decision.
*Hugs*
Varia
EZ_Ciba
02-27-04, 06:36 AM
Grinkle, do you think the constitution would be ignored when it is impractical to follow it?
Varia - FFaC is a separate clause, having nothing to do with the right to bear arms. If you had a constitutional right to bear concealed arms (well according to the supreme emporers in black robes), this wouldn't be a question.
The way I'm reading it, if a state issues CWP's/CPL's/etc, then they must acknowledge one from any other state that does. This of course is not the case.
Llabak Tharr
02-27-04, 07:15 AM
Quote:I wonder what the most common docs were in the late 18th century. What piece of state-issued paper besides a marriage liscenses would anyone even have ever had?
Articles of incorporation perhaps? Other legal contracts executed under one state's laws, such as titles to property? State militia officership?
That's the best I can come up with. I'd say probably the contracts one would have been the most pressing - "I don't have to pay you afterall! That contract was signed in Virginina and we're now in Pennsylvania! Ha ha their laws don't apply here!"
Maybe? *shrug* good question
Documents related to slavery would have surely been included in this as well.
Caowyth
02-27-04, 12:19 PM
Quote:See, my primary reasoning is that "Marriage" has been around a lot longer than "Marriage Licenses." The marriage license is really nothing but a formality, I figure.
Carrying a concealed weapon has been around a lot longer than concealed weapons licenses as well.
Driving ages differ by State. maryland its 16 and 1 month, permit at 15 and 9, Virginia 16 and 3/15 and 6, DC 15 and 6/16. Each has various driver ed requirements etc as well.
A CWP isn't a legal status, imo. Anyone can get married, right? But no gov't is gonna let a former convict get a CWP.
What about concealed marriage licenses?
/boggle
EZ_LordOfChains
02-27-04, 10:46 PM
Quote:Carrying a concealed weapon has been around a lot longer than concealed weapons licenses as well.
Kinda difficult to kill somebody with wedding vows, scooter 'Cuz I'm Psycho Like That...
EZ_Ciba
02-28-04, 11:27 AM
In my county, you need to sign an acknowledgment that marriage can be hazardous to your health. I guess I'm glad I didn't get married here!
It's King County, WA by the way.
Quote:I suspect that had a slave owner from Florida taken a slave with him on a trip to Massachusetts, the slave would likely have been 'freed' by his presence in the non-slave state.
Actually, Llabak, this exact point was quite specifically refuted in the Dred Scott case.
EZ_Jakmagister
03-07-04, 09:49 AM
I suppose one way to look at it is that CWPs are waivers of specific state laws, so that if another state's laws are substantially different, the first state's CWP wouldn't be relevant. But it really seems to me as though FFaC should make CWPs portable unless there are major differences in what the permit is permitting.