World Designer Requests Your WishList For Rogues

[EZ_HaddyChosen]

Afternoon all...
I've been conversing this morning with Wish world designer Dana Massey, and he has asked if you'd be willing to give him a bit of feedback.

Understanding that many games have let those of us in the rogue community down, he's working to provide us with a better experience with better gameplay.

With that in mind, and since he is in a meeting at the moment..could you please post here your wishlist for rogues in regard to what we're trying to do with Wish? He'll be along to post a wee bit later.

www.MutableRealms.com is the game website, and I'm pasting below a snippet from the faq concerning Rogues.

"Very few MMORPGs have made truly entertaining thieves or rogues. Wish will endeavor to change this. Players who work at rogue skills will have plenty of NPC targets around the world to ply their underhanded trades upon. But beware! If you are caught, you will become a fugitive. Other players, or Bounty Hunters, will be able to hunt down rogues through our bounty hunting system. This is yet another area where PvP will be present in Wish. That said, there will be much more to rogues than this basic outline. Please, check back soon for a more complete picture."

Thanks so much for helping us strive towards making this game the rogue experience many of us have sought.
Sundre

[Nocte]

Stickied for a bit of feedback.

Have at thee.

[Llabak Tharr]

The problem, as I see it, is that Rogues and PVE MMORPGs are almost oxymoronic. Rogues are almost by definition loners, even if they belong to a guild of assassins or thieves. It's hard to incorporate the needs of a 'rogue' into a social game that encourages or requires interaction. Consequently you end up with rogues being melee damage dealers first and lockpickers second. The "fun" stuff that rogues can do is the stuff that's in the game "Thief:" skulking around by yourself and doing what needs to be done with wits alone.

PVE stuff that focuses on 'rogue' stuff will either a) make the other characters bored while the rogue goes and does his thing or b) cause players to whine because it 'forces' them to have rogues in their parties (remember the outrage over the doors in Seb?)

Having said that, I think that rogues should be about options. Party wants to go in and squash a nest of baddies. With a rogue, he can sneak in through the window and flip the latch on the door, getting the jump on them. Without a rogue, they have to kick it in, decreasing survival/success. Even that may end up making too many people whine because they don't want to do it 'the hard way.'

Party wants what's in that yummy chest? With a rogue, they pick the lock and disarm the trap. Without the rogue, they smash it in and either have a trap sprung or break something inside the chest or both.

The trick is to make all content available (and acomplishable!) to everyone, but in certain circumstances having a rogue makes it easier. However any walk down that path is going to mean that rogues will need combat power toned down bigtime, akin to differences between Fighters and Rogues in D&D. Rogues get lots of skill points to do fun things and can do some nice situational damage with sneakattacks, but Fighters get twice as many feats, an extra 4 hitpoints per level and the ability to armor themselves up quite a bit. The question will be whether the rogue players of the MMORPG community will be willing to accept that they are no longer the 'masters of melee' that EQ (and others) have trained them to think they are.

[Nocte]

I've always envisioned the rogue as a utility class. We don't necessarily have one bad ass defining skill, but we do have an enormous subset of class skills that make ius not only desired but required. Llabak touched on this a bit.

I think Everquest forced the uber backstab on the rogues to make them desired in a given group. Why? Because we were pretty much useless elsewhere. Our remaining skills while still somewhat useful, are relegated to roleplay.

A group should call to thier rogue to break into things, scout, pick pockets, you know- dead of night stealth stuff. We're a Swiss army knife for a group. Special forces type stuff. I love getting tells out of the blue to tackle things such as Chardok, or City of Mist for the sole fact that I'm a rogue and they in effect NEED me to get in. (Though not so much as of late).

Keep us REQUIRED. If a caster must have a disarm/picklock skill, make it cost prohibitive. They can do without a rogue, but at a cost.

Damage dealing? meh. To me, we are worth far more than that. I want rogue only skills that are needed by all.

[EZ_Jerein]

I agree with all said above. I think rogues should really be about utilities more than damage. I mean, look at EQ right now. We're on par, if not outdamaged by other melee/hybrid classes like rangers. Why get a rogue somewhere where there are no locks when you can get a ranger, who does more damage and can also do other stuff and cast spells? One major thing that SOE left out in the game is the presence of locks and traps. Sure there are a few locks and traps in places like ssra, chardok, seb, etc. But those places are only used on special groups (i.e. not pickup) or raids. Rogues in EQ are very raid oriented, and thats a thing that irks me a lot.

Also, I agree with the fact that there should be ways to get around stuff without rogues. Make it difficult, but doable. Sort of like how a druid can heal, but a cleric is desired. For instance, Id love to see locations that only rogues can get to fast, or can be fought/gotten to in a rather long fassion by everyone else. And have the rewards justify the means. In LDoN, theres boxes and such that have 6 sv fire augs. Whoop-dee-freakin doo! By trying to open those boxes, you jeapordize the group cause of traps and such, and you may not even be able to open them!

One last thing Id like to see with rogues in mmorpgs are alternate ways of dealing with things. In stead of pure manpower and zerging, I think it would rock if there was actually some thought in the games. Like stated above, why bash the door open when you can climb through the window undetected and unlock the door? Or have the rogue or friendly archer stealthly silence the guards at a guard tower rather than bursting in and having alarms sound and battle an army in your face. More options, more versatility, and more fun.

[EZ_Talius]

The problem that I see that EQ has created is that the MMO seems to be primarily about advancement through combat.

The rogue, with all his utility that makes him truely roguely, shouldn't have been a combat class and thus had trouble fitting into a combat atmosphere.

The question is, how can you make a non-combat atmosphere that supports both combat and non-combat as an option.

I liked thief, but, frankly, I don't think you could give advancement or levels or whatever to a rogue for stealing and sneaking. If so, why would they ever move with a team? They could steal there way to grand master and never meet another living sole.

Thief and combat based MMOs just don't mesh.

I do agree that trying to avoid the combat route is best, and some MMOs have aimed for this (making tradeskilling or merchanting an option, etc.) But, as I said, how does a rogue adventure with a team? What can a team provide a rogue that makes him want to follow them around being their skill lapdog?

Cutting down the combat in the rogue and making him more roguely is what I'd like to see, but I think that would make playing a rogue incredibly boring. I stand there while my group fights some guards. I stand there while they fight a wizard. I open the door then stand some more. It just doesn't work. Rogue's providing "the other option" as was suggested above doesn't work either, because then the rest of the group doesn't get to do what it does best.

I suppose the a rogue provides the advantage idea is good, but will it lead to situations where a rogue is leveled or skilled or whatever by some guy on a second machine for the soul purpose of provided that better option?

I guess what I'm trying to say that without a lot of roleplaying, and the ability to support solo play without feeling like a mook (who's going to want to pay a monthly fee to avoid playing with other people?) the rogue class simply doesn't fit into the MMO style of game we've seen so far.

[Nocte]

Quote:Cutting down the combat in the rogue and making him more roguely is what I'd like to see, but I think that would make playing a rogue incredibly boring.

I've thought about this a bit too.

What if, through poison and ranged weapons, the rogue becomes a group's little AOE monster. He/she distances themselves from battle, but tosses daggers/darts/shurikens into the fray tainted with snares/poisons/acids and other nasties. They are maintaining a combat role in character. Don't think in EQ terms here where precious caster toes would be trodden upon, think rogue as melee nuisance and low level but steady damage dealer.

I always thought poison could do so much more even at a less dramatic level.

Two other traditional pen & paper traits thieves and rogues have had in the past were they were wall climbers and linguists. Both functions could be highly useful in quests or obstacles I would imagine. Edited by: Nocte at: 2/26/04 12:12 pm

[EZ_Healo]

Just look at DnD rogue and put that stuff in. Of course you need magic traps that only rogues can see and magic chests that only rogues can pick. I always liked pick pocket in EQ btu nothing was ever really done with that. Personally there should be lots of content for the different classes instead of everyone able to do everything.

[EZ_CreepyPete]

Chests: Make some of them portable. If you don't bring a rogue at least you can bring the chest TO a rogue. I've heard people talk about this in games before. (Gemstone III? I forget...)

I guess the real problem, especially in PvP is how to make us able to be the rogues we want, with the abilities we want and not have them be used to grief. Pickpocket sounds great, but when it's implemented ala EQ where everyone else suffers, well that just sucks. I much prefer the FFXI version where having a thief in group just means you shake the mobs down for a LOT more treasure, be it money or rare drops.

I love the ideas about alternate advancement via abilities, sneaking, hiding, fencing, poisoning, appraising, etc.

More as it occurs to me...

[Caowyth]

Frankly, I don't mind the idea of having a separate sub-section of the game for rogues, but it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint.

I'd love to be able to sneak/pick/and steal my way to greatness. Just as long as I have a Rogue's guild and bar to share my adventures with.

Also, some jobs could require more than one thief.

From a PVE standpoint, you would have to add in enough rogue-based content (Traps, locked doors, chests, etc, as has been mentioned), and make it inconvenient not to take a rogue along with you.

Example:

Locked door-

A rogue could pick the lock on a door without alerting anyone inside, or any wandering monster types nearby.

A warrior (or strong character) could bash the door in, alerting/agroing all mobs within a certain range. This could be dealt with by the party, but it would probably be painful. Also, any traps on the door would be set off.

A wizard could use magic to unlock the door, but this might also aggro nearby monsters from the chanting (Casting spells is never silent). As with the warrior, any traps on the door would be set off.

Some rogue skills should be able to be poorly copied through might or magic (Bashing doors/chests, detecting traps, etc), but it should never be on par with having the actual skill-set.

Also, removing traps should be restricted to those with the skill only. Unlocking a door is one thing (simple action), but figuring out the operation of a trap and how to safely disable it should be something that you need the knowledge to do.

Just like it would be foolish to go into a dungeon without a healer, or a fighter type, it should be foolish to go into a dungeon without someone with thief skills.

[Elerion]

The "Thief/DnD" style rogue works for single player and arranged multiplayer (like BG), but just won't work in a MMORPG. I really doubt it can be done.

[Brelkor]

Well, lets face it, MMOGs have to have some type of treadmill to them, or they are not going to succeed. Players need long term goals, or they will not play for long terms, and revenue will be poopy.

I'm going to bet that the games going to be combat oriented which pretty much leaves one option open for rogue type characters, the dirty fighter.

Dirty fighting usually is manifested as intimidation, poison, dishonorable attacks like backstab, ranged combat, supprise attacks usually using stealth, and misdirection.

I'd like to see these implemented and effective if indeed the game is combat driven. In my mind playing a roguely character in combat is not about seeing how hard you can stab a dragon, but more about getting to the dragons weak spot.

But lets not forget the utility aspect too. Brelkor the Blackhammer, The Masta Back Stabba, retired rogue

"And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning "[i]
[i]

[EZ_strongboard]

Maybe you could add a thief flair via instanced areas... along the lines of sneak into soandso's house and steal item_01... the house could be trapped, and there could be someone inside*somethin mean... if you break down the door, ya gotta kill it, if you sneak in and out, no combat*

Tanstaafl!
Strongboard Vitiator 59th level rogue of Bristlebane

[EZ_Phantom Rogue]

Elerion is the smartest one of the bunch.

You cant have D&D style abilities in a MMO. D&D is made for a SMALL group of people. Maybe in an instanciated part of a MMO can you have 'rogue flare' (which is an oxymoron); however, as a whole, you cant, its just not feasible.

Thieves depend on the Game. You can NOT have a basic definition of a Thief. Which is why Thieves are great. Warriors are Tanks, Paladins are Healing Tanks, Clerics are Spirit/Holy Mages, and so on and so forth.

Thieves are Sneaky, conniving, and swordsmen. But, not every thief is the same blend. Thieves in DragonRealms are VERY VERY different than EQ. Thieves in EQ are very different than ShadowBane. It all depends on the circumstances surrounding the MMO.

If your MMO puts a lot of emphasis on Magic (as EQ did) then thieves will succomb to being an 'accomplice' class. Thieves in Shadowbane were more of a stealth class (theoretically at least ). Sure, once SoS came out, Thieves got more of that stealth back, but for the most part, were still just another dps.

You really cant say what Thieves should be until you see the game and other classes. Thieves should be the last class you design, because thieves are based off of others' weaknesses.

Thieves should always be proficient with Daggers and Piercers, never slicing weapons. Thieves should always prefer to be in the shadows (if ya dont, go be a ranger). Thieves should always be able to steal, whether its pilfering or pillaging.

But again, your definition of a thief, should always come after the definition of the other classes, which should follow the realm/concept. Which is the joy of being a Thief.

[Lenilya]

Creepy: Dragonrealms had coffers and chests you could carry around, I know this for sure. Gawd I love that game! ^_^


I'll play devil's advocate and say I want my Rogue to evicerate his/her opponents in a grandiose shower of blood. Yes, I like the killing. It is good, and makes me feel better. Y'all can go skulk around all ya want, gimme a sharp pointy thing and a soft fleshy target.

Course, a 'build your character' system would allow for both, really.

[EZ_Raith Fennin Ro]

I think all player classes should, when at the same level of exp, be able to offer roughly the same level of damage during combat. The difference between classes should be how that damage is delivered. The skill in playing a particular class is knowing which skills to implement, at the right time, against the right mob. Meaning if the player behind the character sets up his/her spells/attacks/throws/stabs properly against the correct kind of opponent they will do maximum damage. If they don't do this they will do less damage or non at all. The skill in matching attacks to defenses makes combat more fun and tactical.

This tactical combat can be extended to each participant not only using the correct moves and weapons, but also combining combat skills between classes in group combat to further increase damage. In some cases encounters could require this sort of cooperation.

The types of combat skills used (poisons, back-stab,sneak attacks, etc.) help define the class. The extra skills outside combat round out a class and gives it flavor.

EQ really messed this up. Classes did wide varieties of damage and were very unbalanced. Secondary non-combat skills that really helped us get into our roguely roles were either not implemented or were trainable but had no use.

I did like the system of awarding skills as you gained levels. This could be implemented in a way that tailors new skills achieved with the associated challenges found at that level. So when you hit say level 24 there would be places to hunt that would require those newly received skills as well as some of the skills received at earlier levels. At the highest level encounters more complex variations of skills as well as cooperative skills would be required to be victorious.

If you want to make a successful rogue class make the combat require tactical skill using roguely forms. Give rogues special class specific non combat skills that will be required or at least very very helpful. Give rogues stealth. Even if it involves solo missions that make a party wait a bit, or whatever. Just make it require skill and practice on the player's part and make it look and feel roguely.

Also a lot of this stuff could be applied to other classes as well. Although, I just remembered you are using a form of skill tree, but even then you can have branches of skills build on each other, creating some form of identity for the player. The safehouse would not exist if EQ hadn't gone a long way in creating a player class that allowed people to identify with each other. This may be something you guys will have trouble with.

Anyway, my 2 silvers worth.

Raith

[Koru]

There's a lot of reasons rogues are so hard to do. I'm way too tired to post everything (and posting 30+ pages is never fast) but off the top of my head:

One of the reasons rogues are hard to do is because of being able to do things often. I mean that in many MMOGs you can break into the Castle of Doom and steal the Scepter of Uberness repeatedly. Heck, after a while you may even just log in the Castle of Doom and farm the bloody thing whenever it pops.

Static repeatable content is going to mess up a class like the rogue. So are traps and chests, once you know where they are a lot of the challenge is gone. Now lets face it, EQ is horribly designed in terms of giving alternative paths to combat. Since the rogue class, or a lot of it, is about avoiding combat this does not make for the best combination. For the most part it makes zero distinction between you doing something for the first time and the 60th. If you could only pick a chest for unique loot or xp once (or once a month, whatever), or only get xp on disabling a chest once the system couldn't be exploited that way. But because the game, or rather games since this is not unique to EQ, have been designed around people repeating the same content over and over and over again you can't make anything really unique.

Also the engines for most games don't really support anything other than 'find it, kill it, bring back it's head' quests. Which is a shame since rogues are a great class in regards to quest opportunities. I'd love it if you could get a burglary job where the goal is to avoid detection and not get into long drawn out fights - where getting in a fight would cause less xp and coin than avoiding one. Name me one MMOG that lets you do that. The possibility to make for interesting non-combat content is there, but the support within the game systems isn't. It's much easier to just go "Y'know, lets just make this a bounty hunting mission where they have to take out a 75th level AE DTing mob that splits into two every 5 seconds".

[Bladesake]

There are SO many aspects to rogues, which transcends many game systems. It is very hard to implement them all and maintain balance. I think that the balance issue is what has contributed to the more damaging qualities of EQ rogues.

Rogues generally have a VERY wide array of skills. Dungeons and Dragons rogues received much greater number of skill points than any other class. This supposedly reflected the idea that rogues utilize "brain over brawn" in may situations. A rogue can't be stopped if he isn't caught. If he's caught, perhaps he can smooth talk his way out of trouble. If not that, then there is surely a dagger or two cleverly hidden upon his person. In many MMORPG's this "progression" from stealth to stabbing has been lost, leaving the rogue to rely either primarily, or wholly to one or more method of evasion.

Also, despite being "cut from the same mettle" there are many different types of rogues. You have your rogue, thief, swashbuckler, vagrant, waif, cut-purse, rake, scalawag, robber, beggar, scoundrel, rapscallion, gambler, shyster, brigand, hustler, ruffian, pirate, prigger, rascal, highwayman, outlaw, ner-do-good, and of course there are assassins. They share many qualities, but each one has their distinctive qualities that make them different from the rest. How should an MMORPG accommodate every sort of rogue, without trampling over balance issues?

Anywhere there are rules, there are those who seek to be free of said rules. Freedom. Freedom is the key ingredient to each and every rogue. Any game system MUST give rogues freedom. Without it, there is no point to being a rogue. The question is What sort of freedom do you extend a rogue in an MMORPG, where their actions so effect so many people? How much freedom do you give them? How do you limit this freedom while still maintaining it? I've often heard of game that allow rogues to pick the pockets of very group members who keep him alive! While this is in the spirit of the rogue, for sure, it does not make for a good game model. Perhaps if such treachery could be avenged by the victims upon discovery of the crime, by pain of death, then maybe the rogue would rethink advantaging his easy mark. His plans might be influenced by how tough the penalties are for death in his game world. Such an example as shown above is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to balancing a freely-designed rogue class in an MMORPG. There is MUCH more to consider than the simple effects of theft upon the community. Hopefully, future development of MMORPGs will provide some progress on this issue.

Clearly, any MMORPG that wishes to implement a capable, balanced, and most importantly fun rogue class will have these issues and more to consider. What I have detailed here is merely a brief look at my take on what a good MMORPG rogue class would be in my opinion. If Wish can come close to all of this, then I will be very happy to play that game. Ooohh.. so shiney!
Manx's Lootbag

[EZ_Solanar]

I want cookies for my rogue.

Chocolate chip cookies.


Thief was a great game - but as I believe I already saw stated, it doesn't work well in MMOGs - because you end up having to have a whole games worth of content just for one class.

Having a way to progress, noncombatively, would be nice, but you'd have to take care to block exploiting it.

For instance, if picking a lock or a pocket gave xp, that would be great - but you lose the difficulty of the game if you can set a macro up to repeatedly pick the same lock and come back a couple days later to a maximum level character.

Successfully sneaking past a guard would be a great way to get xp - as long as it didn't mean wandering around with hide-n-sneak on for a solid week just to get xp with little risk.

As far as the different classifications of rogues go, and matching it with a tree system skillset - what if going up a certain branch closed off others? For instance, if progressing past a certain level in sneak attacks limited how adept you could be at normal fighting - you're so used to attacking from the blindside, you get nervous when they're watching you and aren't as good...or something. Or if not closing them off entirely, making it more expensive - so the sorceror might be able to learn to pick locks, but it cost him twice as much as someone who didn't have magic as a specialization.

For any rogue specific content, there has to be a balance - enough of it to make rogues useful, but not so much that a group without a rogue can't have fun.

Of course, balance is the watchword of any multiplayer game.

I was gonna say more, but I'm tired enough that I'm not even sure what I already typed makes sense. I'll check back later.


Sola

[EZ_Zeledrith Darakan]

If theres gonna be bounty hunters, and PvP for doing illegal things...

Let rogues/thieves be able to steal from players. Make it so you can choose to steal coin, or even items. To balance it, make it so that you cannot steal items in backpacks and equipped items. Also allow maybe high intelligence characters to be able to catch them. Increase the success rate of theft if the thief is able to successfully avoid attention, like stay invisible, sneaked behind the target etc.

If CAUGHT, person that caught you can file a report and get a bounty on your head. Then the bounty hunters and the PKing comes in, and you have to run from the law for maybe a certain time limit and hope no one finds you, or kill anyone that does.

Make rogues dirty fighters, slash hamstring, tripping their opponents, let them be proficient in rapiers (High parry rate) or scimitars (More damage) with a dagger as their secondary depending on their path chosen.

I've seen games where rogues are tanks, due to their ability to parry/fence. Let there be rogue dens where they can purchase rogue only equipment like picklocks, padded footpads, smoke bombs, powder, and other stuff only they can use which gives them the ability to maybe blind the enemy, slow them down, increase sneaking success etc. Of course the dens will only be accessible to rogues, maybe through climbing walls or maybe a door with a guard behind which only opens it for rogues.

As for the grouping issue, this can be fixed by making maybe fighters do more damage, but rogues tank better/last longer due to their proficiency in parrying damage.

With cheap tactics, and dirty fighting, rogues can also maybe not excel in group fighting, but being a loner and PvPing. A path as a bounty hunter, or assasin. Or stealth, lockpicking, theft, making them a thief or treasure hunter.

[Bladesake]

Quote:let them be proficient in rapiers (High parry rate) or scimitars (More damage) with a dagger as their secondary depending on their path chosen.

Weapon choice should be more flexible, instead of class/proficiency based, where the player gets a choice in the matter. How many highwaymen do you see performing dashing moves with a rapier? While it might be more realistic to see them crudely slitting the throats of passersby with swords, that shouldn't restrict the player who might want to become a more dashing sort of highway robber who does wield a rapier, and picks his marks only from the ranks of nobility. Perhaps he might even be one himself, in disguise.
In all, there should be the utmost flexibility with weaponry, particularly with rogues. This is a relatively easy area to control, but it still adds a lot toward character definition.

[EZ_Ten Evenings]

Connections with in game governments and officials that could bend and color the in game politics of the NPCs. Like, spending influence points and currency to persuade guards to not attack certain individuals or groups, or convince governments to declare war on another, not declare war, etc.

Poison is nice. Poison should have a huge scale of how easy it is to make, and how much damage it does. Effective, worthwhile poisons that blinded enemies, confused them, etc would be great.

[EZ_Gyorg]

Three things I wanted to bring up:

1. <u>Innate Trap detection!</u> It is silly that in Everquest you have to click a button to check for traps. The second a rogue able of detecting a trap steps within detection range he should be warned of it's presence. Then he can go about disarming it.

2. <u>Thieves Vs Assassins</u>: Some people want thieves. Rogues who are mainly utility for themselves or a group. Some people want Assassins. Rogues who use sneaky methods to deal high damage.

3. <u>Attack Area</u>: an idea that might help give rogues a utility. Expand the infimious EQ melee box. On the ground below a mob have a transparent graphic, (like eq's current target indicator), but have it indicate where certain attacks can occur from. (Say a rogue must be in a wedge that is a certain distance out and a certain number of degrees at a certain orientation to a mob to do something such as backstab or tendon slice or pick pocket or sneak by it (sneaking by it might be an exclusionary area).

Tanks could have the same thing with areas that they gain more agro and tank better. Hell, casters could have it to define where certain spells can be cast from. --------------------------
Gyorg Lavode, The original Phin-o-matic Safehouse Moderator
Unguilded Assassin Badass
of the 65th Moon over Xegony
The only thing cooler then gyorg, is a drunk gyorg thats at his computer -Deuce

[Pyrocat Moonstalker]

We need OPTIONS!

Traps
Locked windows/doors to sneak through
Skill at sneaking up on people
Skill at stealing items/coin that is actually worthwhile
Diverse spread of sub classes or skill trees (pickpocket vs break and enter vs highway man vs merc vs FBI type of agent vs assassin vs swashbuckler .etc)
Poison
Wall climbing

I think my one major disappointment in all games with rogue occupations is that there is no implimentation in the game to look around for a back door and sneak in, killing the person in their sleep, as opposed to going in the front door and fighting them. Or sneak in the window and raid their house without killing them. That sort of thing is never in the game when I think it should be. It's hard to impliment that sort of thing I realize, but be creative. It's why you're a game designer right?

[Trolo]

Quote:(Say a rogue must be in a wedge that is a certain distance out and a certain number of degrees at a certain orientation to a mob to do something such as backstab or tendon slice or pick pocket or sneak by it (sneaking by it might be an exclusionary area)

Gyorg, you're such an engineer.

I agree with the people here that are saying that D&amp;D-like, utility rogue skills can never be implemented in a factory-line game like an MMORPG. If MMORPG can't happen over and over and over again, it doesn't work. If something happens more than a few times, rogue utility skills won't work. So the necessity to make an MMORPG work will always overthrow any desire to implement truly roguely utility skills.

[EZ_Peebs]

You can't really have a real 'rogue' class in an MMORPG because nobody wants to play the part of the dumb guard/nobleman/merchant that was just snuck around and stolen from. Sure it's fun for you, but what about the guy who is supposed to patrol around looking for you?

Also, until we have the option of catching a thief and throwing his ass in jail for a week (with NO escape) the real 'risk' of being a rogue/thief just won't be there. Player policing does NOT work, Ultima Online and Shadowbane proved this. As long as people can just disappear from the world into thin air there is no justice. Most games make the mistake of thinking the players can police and do something about it, but what can you REALLY do? Kill the thief? Really, is that a big deal in any mmorpg? People die all the time!

No, until there is a real form of punishment and accountablity there will never be a good 'thief' type of rogue. I think MMORPGS are going to have to settle on assassin type of skills and things like poison, lockpicking, 'keen' senses, quickness, camo/invisibility, and sneak attacks to make some sort of rogue class.

In a PVP game the options get better. I always thought it would be cool for a 'rogue' class to have some way of getting extra information to help their side (understand enemy speech, 'tap' into group chat in certain circumstances, etc).

[EZ_Zeledrith Darakan]

An idea to balance theft from players and player policing, make PvP death cost experience loss and maybe a % of the rogues money, or one item that isn't equipped or in backpacks.

Make it so that rogues can inspect other players and know what are they carrying, this can be one of their abilities, and it won't be considered a crime so they can check out the risk versus reward before performing the theft.

To make them group friendly, simply disable the ability to steal from whoever you are grouped with so you don't those stupid group arguments.

Killing for no reason will get you bountied and killed, so no one should be going around griefing unless hes very confident on his abilities to PvP so the experience penalty and loss of item/money probably won't destroy the game.

Killing a bountied player however will have no penalty towards the killer, and he gets to claim the bounty somewhere for maybe items, cash, experience or maybe a mix of the above.

As for the bountied player, he has to stay logged in for a certain amount of time lets say 24 hours and longer depending on how serious his crime is and the bounty timer on him will not move in safe spots like towns and dungeons, so he has to be constantly on the run. Being logged out will not move his bounty timer.

Let certain classes have the ability to track the bountied player, or maybe a spell when casted in the same zone as the target player, you can choose to look through his eyes for a few seconds, so you can guess where hes hiding or heading.

Thus there will be no such thing as a bountied player simply hiding in one safe corner of the world and going to sleep.

Lastly, at the end of the bounty timer, the bountied player has to bribe the NPC in charge of bounties to remove him from the list. Thus even if not caught, he pays a price for his crime.

[EZ_Peebs]

I don't think that is enough. You'll still probably be overrun with the 'naked thief' syndrome where thieves get rid of all of their good stuff and go around stealing from everyone without having anything to lose.

The problem is, you can't have a severe penalty system without pissing off players and making the game no fun. What fun would it be if you were caught stealing from the King and thrown into a dungeon until your character dies? No game would ever do that (the prisoner would just cancel his/her subscription) but it's the only way people can really be held accountable for what they do.

It's a tricky subject, and the more I think about it the more I truely believe that actually 'stealing' things is best left out of MMORPGs altogether. I'm not a care bear, but until people can actually do something about thieving there really is no way it can be balanced. Just think about the game Thief. What happened when you royally screwed up? Game Over.

Your bounty ideas are pretty cool, but would need a lot of modification to avoid exploitation. What about those of non-combat or support roles? What about stealing? Could people level up a 'dummy' rogue solely to get exp or cash by 'catching' him over and over? At the end of the day you are just killing him anyway, which probably wouldn't be much of a punishment if the thief just stole your 'super mega flaming longsword of uberness'. Edited by: Peebs at: 3/1/04 5:36 am

[Bladesake]

The problem with many models is that there are not enough skill checks for pvp skills. EQ should be able to implement a "check" between the character level, pick-pocket skill, and dexterity of a rogue and against the character level, and intelligence, and perhaps wisdom of the victim/person witnessing the crime, to see if the rogue has been "caught in the act." Such a system *might* have gone a long ways toward alleviating the problems that plague Pick-pockets in EQ.

In all, use more skill/flag checks.

Allow skill checks to identify items that are stolen, making them untradable &amp; unsellable. Perhaps a black market of sorts will purchase the item at a greatly reduced price, and then the item disappears from the game forever. There should be items that are nearly impossible to deny having stolen, just as in real life, trying to unload a particular gem, or set of jewelry.

Also every thief leaves a mark. Something that identifies himself as the burglar. It is flawed reasoning that there should only be one check to see if an attempt at stealing was successful or not. There should be another skill check to see if the victim can determine who stole his items from him once the crime has been discovered. A thief should become less conspicuous as he progresses his skills. In this manner, stealth is not the ONLY issue. One can still get caught long after the "perfect" crime has been committed if he leaves behind too many clues, or if his mark is particularly clever.

A "legal system" should keep records of illegal activities. Not bannable/cheating/exploit offenses, but rather in game activities, such as stealing. A person should be able to rack up a "reputation," or Record of "frown-able" activities, such as stealing, man-slaughter, and assault (bringing another player lower than 50% health without PvP consent flag being triggered). Acquire a big record and you'll risk being flagged as a "shady character." Allow players to "examine" other characters with an intuitive and well implemented "examine" system. This should bring up a player's record rather quickly, thus alerting a player to a potential confrontation. Examining a character should only bring up a "general" report on them, however, to protect the reputation of characters who might have accidentally hurt someone, or done wrong in the past, only recently having changed their ways. A fully-detailed report could be available at a desiginated place in town. This will make the information available to all, but not convenient for use "in the wild."

I think that there can be a good MMORPG model that includes rogue-friendly activity. It will just take a great deal of thought and a very good team developers to pull it off. The above-mentioned features might result in a game being too "bloated" of feature-packed, but researching them may prove valuable, perhaps resulting in a trade-off, where many features can be streamlined to fit into the game model.

[EZ_Phantom Rogue]

Weapon Proficiencies...

Sorry, Rogues should ONLY be able to use Scimitars, Rapiers, Daggers, Shanks, ect. Relitively Small, Lightweight weapons. I NEVER want to see a Rogue wielding a Broadsword and Dagger. Hell, I think the whole dual wielding thing is a joke anyway. I mean really, having two weapons that are as big as your leg, wielding both, and doing insane dmg with both... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And Rogues should only be able to use 1 weapon, but use it DAMN WELL. Id really like to see a thief backstab from hiding, with 2 weapons, it would be so clumsy and ill thought through that the thief would prolly miss. Thieves should get bonus's to Daggers, to make it WORTH WHILE to use a low dmg weapon. Since we should be able to do it with superior precision. Like stab an artery, slice a tendon, ect. Cant really be that insanely precise with a Broadsword, Longsword or Axe. And especially, not while wielding two weapons.

And the whole Thief vs Assassin thing.
They are two seperate classes. Rogue is a Thief, Assassin is Artemis

Rogue is an outcast of sorts, one who will pillage, steal, and do whatever is needed to get by without anyones help. An assassin is a more charismatic person, who will befriend you, and strike out with deadly force when it suits him right.

Sure both need the same basic skills, but the differences past that are great. The assassin could be considered a Swashbuckler (VERY good with weapons), where the Rogue is good with em, but not as proficient as an Assassin. The Rogue is better at stealing, pilfering, rummaging up goods. Where the assassin is better at bluffing, poisons and other Charismatic details. Both prefer to be in the shadows, but the Assassin is just as good in the light as in the dark.

PvP (ahh, my one true love!).
Rogues suck, and always will suck. Its a given, at least with current game mods. See invis should NOT work against Rogues/Thieves/Assassins, they arent invisible, they are hiding damnit! It should be based on a persons Perception skill, and the Thieves Hiding/Stalking skill. Poisons are a joke in most game instances. So is backstab. (With the highass/low AC of people, backstab hardly hits for hard in pvp, hell, my Wizard and Bard on SZ would get misses/dodges on incoming backstabs). Backstabs shouldnt miss (given you are using a Proficient weapon (see above and my rant about weapon proficiencies). Rogues should have extra resistances to poisons, mental attacks and the whatnot.

Anyway... lost my train of thought (doesnt take too much to sidetrack me)

[Bladesake]

I totally agree with the weapon proficiencies. Rogues should have a choice in what weapon they use from a desiginated list. But they should be able to choose a "personalized" weapon that suits them best.

Swashbucklers would choose rapiers (for mobility and finnesse). Inner-city thieves, the dagger (for concealment). A viscious highwayman may threaten travelers with his longsword. I don't see any problem with certain rogue-types wielding longswords, or clubs. Not greatswords, mind you, longswords. A different situation calls for a different weapon.

[DarthEnder]

Find some way of making Thief 2 massively mutliplayer.

The End.

[EZ_Peebs]

Right, and I suppose you'll volunteer to be the oblivious whistling guard and walk around in circles while the rest of us have fun?

[EZ_lenweni]

Actually the game thievery has people who play as the whistling guards all the time (multi-player version of thief)

I know alot of people talk about rogues as part of a group but I guess ive always thought they should be a solo class myself ie. you steal for a living people hunt you so you dont trust people.

[EZ_Lerkin Behinja]

As others have said earlier, rolling all of the ignoble classes of fantasy gaming into "Rogue" is extremely difficult. The results are either a watered-down jack-of-all-trades who can easily be replaced or a strictly utility class. However, I'll do my best and break down what I see as my 'perfect' Rogue class (much of this comes from my rants and paragraphs from the game that I will someday design).

Stats:
STR- Weak, weak, weak. If you were Adonis, you would've been loved as a child and not turned into a latchkey kid.
CON- Years of the street urchin life left little time for nutritional balance. Better steer clear of Ironman competitions.
DEX- You break into vaults and disarm fatal traps in your sleep.
CHA- You know the difference between a band of pygmies and a women's track team? One's a group of cunning runts...
AGI- For when that joke doesn't work
INT- Momma didn't raise no fool. Come to think of it, Momma didn't raise you at all.
(Note that my view of wisdom is akin to faith and, by definition, opposed to intelligence. Don't read that the wrong way and argue in this thread.)
WIS- All that "gray area" rationalization got rid of most of that morality stuff.

(Long-winded story short: dext'rous, fast, smart, and charming)

Melee:
Technically, the Rogue class is the most dangerous class in the game. One hit from a skilled assassin could kill instantly. Unfortunately, these one-hit wonders take quite a while to set up. First, the rogue must choose his mark. When a rogue begins his career, he must intently study his victim for three consecutive minutes (Real time - Ed.) before going for the kill. (Time is drastically shortened on NPCs, because playing the game at three-minute intervals really sucks) This time shrinks as the rogue becomes more experienced, eventually moving toward the forty-five second mark. During this time, the rogue must not focus on anything else (keep subject targeted), maintain line-of-sight with the target, be uninterrupted by any other being, be that PC or NPC, or be targeted by the mark. For these reasons, it is recommended that the rogue stay out of sight, stalking from refuge to refuge. Any of these actions break "Stalk" and force the rogue to start anew or go away. If the Rogue is spotted by the mark, and the mark does not make it known to the rogue by raining unholy death upon them, the rogue is none the wiser. Unfortunately for him, that surprise is saved for when he attempts to attack.

After the mark is stalked sufficiently, the rogue knows a good bit about this target: equipment, profession based on said equipment (ties in with Disguise later), relative health and fatigue, and possibly skill based on physical features (scars from intense melee training, calluses caused by summoning fire, etc.). Slowly the rogue descends upon the target. If the rogue completes all of the actions and successfully attacks, the mark is almost certainly dead. Only exceptions being extremely hardy adventurers, illusions, and missed pieces of information such as a gorget when attempting to garrote. Of course, knowing WHERE to attack is just as important; if the rogue takes out the warrior's pinky toe, odds are the warrior will hobble all over the rogue's broken body. Alternately, the rogue can attack from their place of refuge with ranged attacks. Of course, precise aiming is extremely difficult at times, and lengthy training is needed to aim the weapon appropriately. In these ways, the rogues are the kings of melee combat.

"Now, Eric," you may be saying if you're talking to a monitor, "what happens if the rogue fails at any stage of that process?" Well, reader, the rogue is dead. That's that. Rogues are speedy little buggers, but they were not taught extremely well with their weapons. Sure, the rogue may stay alive long enough to run away or may dodge enough greataxes to put out an eye, but rogues were not built for combat. If the initial attack fails, the rogue must rely on their quick wits and quicker legs to survive. It's all or nothing when it comes to assassination.

Furthermore, an attempted hit cannot be retried for quite a while. Why, you ask? If I were accosted by a man from the shadows, my guard would be up for a good while after. This also helps to guard against a certain rogue hopping out of the shadows every forty-five seconds to show you his new pigstickers. This anti-assassin sense lasts for about ten minutes afterward and applies to ALL would-be hitmen. The exception being a person engrossed in some other activity such as battle. They become fair gamed uring that time. This would be implemented with the combat toggle, I imagine.

Where do poisons fit into this equation? Poisons, potions, and ninjutsu would be the only way that rogues become melee classes. Since ninjutsu is not in the game, we can narrow that to poisons and potions: alchemy. Whether you buy the poisons from someone or make them yourself, they are the same strength, excepting masterpieces. However, someone steeped in mixing unguents and toxins are at ease with these chemicals. Johnny MceBay's hands get awfully shaky when trying to coat his arrows, thrown weapons, blowdarts (yes, I said blowdarts), and pokers with poison. Oh, damn, I just poisoned myself, broke the vial of poison, and dropped my weapon. This is the price for being a lazy rogue. Sloth and ignorance will kill a rogue faster than anything. Of course, you don't have to poison your blades; you could always filch a potion from the wizard's knapsack, add Granpappy's Consumption Cure to the mix, shake well, and put it back with him being none the wiser (hopefully).

Skills:
Ahh the fun part ... rogue skills. Considering I've typed for about forty minutes thus far, and this is my favorite part, I'm just getting started.

Hiding: Let me start by voicing my opinion on something--HIDING DOES NOT MAKE ONE INVISIBLE. I don't need to repeat that. Hiding is nice and all, but going into fetal position and closing your eyes does not render you invisible. At best, it gives a translucent look much like Dark Age of Camelot. Hiding and sneaking should be rolled into one skill: Running could be used to nullify the sneaking part, and if you're sneaking around, why not have hide for free? Of course, some creatures and people can still see: blindvision, heatvision, sonar, and scent can surely give away the hapless rogue. I always thought EQ hiding was much too safe. If a rogue is hiding, they should not know when their cover is blown until the monster breaks their back. If a monster has hate on the rogue, there is no way the rogue will sneak up on it until that hate fades. Universal hate (general aggro) will also give the rogue very little chance to successfully sneak around the mob. Attempting to sneak around a mob and failing results in a good bit of hate, as well.

Keen Senses: All of that training in stealth gives extra benefits. Whenever someone targets a rogue, there is a five percent chance every ten seconds that the rogue will know that they are being watched. While the rogue is currently stalking a mark, that chance drops to .5% (that's 1:200) . It's not spider sense, but it's not completely useless. These senses also allow the rogue to spot traps. The rogue must be actively looking (mouselook) and must have sight of the trap for three seconds before "spotting" the trap.

Trap setting, disarming, retrieval, lock picking: Pretty straightforward. Practically everyone can think these up on their own. Only thing I have to say is that I wish lockpicking were more like the real thing.

Stealing: The rogue must first evaluate the mark. The rogue 'considers' the mark much in the way he stalks his prey for murder. This is not the 'con' of Everquest: considering a monster is closer to a skill than it is a given. It also gives a bit more information, too. After considering, the rogue has a few options: put the hand into the bag and filch a random item (easiest to escape), inspect the items that are in the bag and take a pick, or slice the pursestrings and make off with the whole satchel of goodies (98% detection rate). All three of these options become easier when the target is busy with some other task. Aside from stealing objects, rogues may also plant objects such as explosives, tainted consumables, or evidence (these could make for some great quests). This holds about the same failure rate as picking your item, since you're also holding a foreign object when the purse is breached.

Disguise: Anyone can wear a wizard robe. Rogues know enough to BS their way through as a certain class, rank, or profession. Of course, this covers only the mental aspect of the skill. The rogue must have proper attire for his class, or the disguise fails. When trying to pass as an anonymous passerby, things are pretty easy. When emulating someone who has worked as a guard their whole life, only a master manipulator will even come close to succeeding.

Wall climbing and using terrain: These are things that have to be thought of beforehand and kept in mind while designing terrain. Otherwise, exploits abound. Without spilling every little detail of my game that will never exist, spawn points really ruin these two. People will always find a way to hide and risk nothing. Of course, my exp. system is a little different, but in a standard xp per kill system, wall-climbing and such should be limited only to cities. That way, the fusillade of shurikens can be easily stopped with a few bowmen.

You know, I think that about covers it. If I didn't have to head to class, I'd probably write more, but an hour and a half is good enough for now. If you've made it this far, you truly are my brothers.

[Llabak Tharr]

Quote:With that in mind, and since he is in a meeting at the moment..could you please post here your wishlist for rogues in regard to what we're trying to do with Wish? He'll be along to post a wee bit later.

So where is this elusive Designer that's going to come post here? If he's not planning on coming to comment, we hardly need this thread stickeyed any longer.

[Lisboa]

Owned.

[EZ_Mordier]

The trick I think is to build a class that only true rogues want to play. I don't want there to be 1000 others playing my class. I *want* to be the odd guy out. I want to be part of a smaller class, an underworld, where only the roguish souls dare to tread (and only the roguish souls actually want to tread).

If there's too much straight-forward action, too many people want to play the class. I want a class that most people do NOT want to play. They don't want to play it because they can't wade into a normal battle and beat people down. They can't cast spells. They can't just walk down the streets of any city without looking over their shoulder. They have to spend too much time planning, or stalking, or sneaking. They have to be covert.

I really enjoyed the EQ rogue when the game first came out because it was so friggin hard to play...and when the PvP servers were released it was a blast to stalk someone, maybe for your whole playing session, just waiting for the right time to strike. Add in some "darkness", and alot of stealing (with huge consequences if you're not good at it), and that's the class I want to play.

As for group spots...why not have an "x" spot that is always (and only) available to a rogue? If the normal group can have 10 people, there's an 11th spot that can only be filled by a rogue. Then you're not taking a melee, healer, or spellcaster spot, and you're able to perform your roguely duties without feeling like you're leeching loot or experience (feeling like you're not pulling your weight in the battles). Morvran McGuinness
Retired rogue of the North {Shanks}, Vallon Zek
The more you leave dead, the less you need to watch your backEdited by: Mordier at: 3/3/04 6:28 pm

[EZ_HaddyChosen]

EDIT: Edited for personal attacks. Please respect our Forum rules. Edited by: Fricka at: 3/4/04 5:07 pm

[Lisboa]

EDIT: For personal attacks. Edited by: Fricka at: 3/4/04 5:12 pm

[Llabak Tharr]

ROFL you take yourself that seriously? I guess if I was looking for betatesters I'd want a bunch of people like you, so good for Wish.

Active? I see one post in that thread. That's hardly active. You said there was going to be a developer coming along to post a little later, I just want to know if that's happening or not. I'd like to think that the staff here was quite generous in stickeying the thread in the first place, particularly at the request of a betatester for a game that I'd never heard of before your first post the other day. I'm sorry if you feel that you're owed special treatment somehow because you have the ear of a developer. Guess what? You're not. Quite a few people here know or are game developers.

Now if you'd like to take this personal, I'd be happy to have you banned. If you'd like to play nice and keep posting here, that's OK too. Either way, I'm indifferent, it's your choice. However, as Lisboa suggested, this sure doesn't make me want to be involved in Wish at all. At least Tweaty knew when to cut the flames and actually try to be positive about promoting things.

[EZ_LepidusMR]

Hello everyone,

First off, Haddy is not a paid employee of MR. He is a beta tester who showed me this community, and I figured the lot of you might have some neat ideas on rogues given that is what brought you all here.

I have read the thread through several times, and will continue to do so as long as people keep posting to it.

There is no need to get into arguments over all this. The moderators are free to do as they like, it is after all their community to manage.


Interesting stuff so far!

Dana Massey
World Designer
Mutable Realms

[EZ_LorinaEQ]

Ahh, the age old question, "What makes a rogue a rogue?" Rogues can be daring swashbucklers, secondstorymen, muggers, pickpockets, safecrackers, assassins and more. You'll find as many answers as you'll find rogues, if not more. And therein lies the problem and solution for making rogues fun.

Rogues should have a diverse skillset of both combat and noncombat skills.

Combat: While they can deal damage, it should not come in large, crushing blows; but by precise strikes to vital areas. "Called shots," "Backstabbing" and "Critical Blows" are many variations of the same thing. Precise combat striking with weapons that do little damage normally but are capable of great harm if used by a properly trained person. This should be a rogue's forte in combat. If such attacks can slowdown, blind, stun or otherwise hinder a foe, so much the better. I'll never forget Gemstone's body part system and the fun I had with it. While it may be hard to "ambush troll right eye," it was always fun to see the look on people's faces when said troll had his brain drilled through the eye socket.

Theft: If picking pockets isn't your thing, don't do it. But many people play a rogue for the thrill of lifting something off a foe. Make sure that picking pockets is what is known as an "opposed test" when dealing with players. For example, my chance of picking pockets successfully might be offset by a "situational awareness" skill on other players and monsters. This would make it easier to spot a thief. There might also be a contest of pickpocket versus pickpocket skill. So a rogue would have a harder time picking another rogue's pocket than a mage's; BUT both may spot him doing so or attempting to do so. This would mean two checks on each attempt, for success and for being spotted, leaving four potential results each attempt:

1) Success/Success the rogue gets the stuff and is not spotted.
2) Success/Fail the rogue gets the stuff, but the victim sees him.
3) Fail/Success the rogue gets no loot, but is not spotted.
4) Fail/Fail the rogue not only doesn't get any loot, but the victim catches them red handed!

If any form of picking pockets from monsters is allowed, it should come from a separate loot pool to prevent rogues from stealing monsters blind and leaving broke mobs for others to kill.

Locks and Traps: This is the meat and potatoes of pen and paper games for rogues. And yet it is so rarely done well in online games. Rogues should be the best at finding and disarming traps and picking locks. I don't mind if others can train in it a little, or use magic to try these, but rogues should be the best. Boxes and chests that can be taken back to town are a great idea, especially if you have an NPC locksmith to help those poor rogueless souls out there.

While static traps and locks are great, they should never give experience or skill ups when handled. However one shot portable boxes and traps on chests and the like SHOULD give out exp and/or skill ups. This might lead to the professional lockpicker who sits and opens boxes for a fee and some exp as a reward, but so be it. Anyone who ever watched the East Tower explode in Gemstone after a screwed up picking attempt will tell you there can be risk involved in sitting in town and picking open chests.

Stealth: This should be another rogue forte, with possibly a ranger type coming in a close second. Scouting out the dungeon or just hiding from the law make this skill a must have. If you don't have the concept of moving about in secret in the game, you should. Period, full stop, end of statement.

Okay, that was my quick, on my way to go drinking post. More later after i've fully recovered and read other folks' comments.





Ron
Vincit/Lorina
65th lvl Rogue/Enchanter
Morell-Thule
Asylum Keepers
Co-Leader, Recruiting Officer

Vincit's Stuff
Lorina's Stuff

[EZ_camerono]

First off my opinion of a rogue is not someone used in groups, though they would be useful for all of the roguish things previously stated. I think of a rogue as a soloist.

Combat:
When you think of a rogue and how he would fight, you think of backstabbing. Backstabbing the poster child of roguish fighting. Why? Because in reality there isn't much roguish fighting. Rogues don't fight for long if they ever end up fighting past the first strike. Rogues should have abilities to incapacitate and run, or stun and backstab again, or have ridiculously high avoid rates. I've always thought that a backstab should be a one hit kill. No two ways about it. What it shouldn't be is a simple button that is usable with a quick recast timer and during combat (unless the rogue is not the mob's target). Backstab (as well as pickpocket) should have a somewhat long "casting time." this time would essentially be the time it took for the rogue to "line up" that fatal blow. a time during which he could be spotted more easily, since he is moving more and is very close to his target. in this way rogues can be somewhat fixed for combat by simply removing them for the most part from it.

An other idea I had was that of a universal skill for all classes, "teamwork." Teamwork would do all manner of things. If you were a rogue team work at certain levels might imbue your part with a semi-sneak or something else. Teamwork on a warrior could give morale and boost damage or hit points or AC. Mages could shorten casting time or do more damage. The main part about the team work skill is that if two or more people in a group have it, the total bonus should be greater than the sum of the individual bonuses. To say that if everyone in the group has team work up then everyone get's a lot of bonuses not just bonusX6 or however many are in the group.

The great thing about the teamwork skill is that it allows people to be more individual adventurers, or group adventurers. team work could even be an other subset of skills where teamwork effected group members differently based on what teamwork skills were active on a character. The balance would come from the fact that the points put into teamwork skills would be points not used elsewhere.

[Bladesake]

Whenever I hear someone say that rogues should not be in groups, or that they are loners I make an awful face and say "ggrrrr."

You're missing out on a great side of the rogue experience if you shun groups all the time. The truth is that a good rogue views a group as an open opportunity for his trade. A group can provide cover for the rogue, distract the enemy, provide an aliabi, vouch for your character in case you happen to get an angry mob after you, and many more things. A good rogue may even use a party member as a scapegoat.

Sure, there are lone rogues who have made names for themselves, but they are far and few between, and they usually have to watch their backs 100% of the time. Consider it a "temporary alignment for my own benefit" but Rogues are primarily a group class.

[EZ_Decrescendo]

When I think of rogues I tend to make the assassin/thief distinction. Either focus on killing or stealing. With that in mind, all I really want are things to steal and people to assassinate.

When I first started eq I picked rogue because I saw they could pick pockets, and that sounded great; however, I was quickly disappointed. What I envisioned, and in fact what I tried to do, was sneaking around the innkeepers and vendors in freeport stealing. Little did I know 13lvl rogues get killed fast when trying to pp joe the leather merchant. Hell, the peasant npcs were generally stronger than me till velious, and I point to that as the major flaw in rogue design in eq. Peasant npcs should naturally be rogue's prey. If I need * I should steal it from the * vendor. Imagine the fun if every house had a locked chest and every npc had a dangling coin purse. Or if there were nice weapons in the guardhouse armory for the taking, or if there was loot to be had in the bank vault. Naturally increased rewards would require higher skill and risk. I'd like to see a reward for sneaking into the dragon's lair and pilfering his hoard. The only criticism for this type of system would be the repetition of such feats, but I think with some tweaks it wouldn't be any different from killing the same god every 3 days.

As for assassination, I have another eq anecdote. There's a quest from one of the DE rogue trainers that requires you to assassinate a female npc in the upstairs of the inn at the east freeport harbor. You need to sneak behind see invis npcs at the bar, go upstairs and talk to her. You then learn she loves to see the ship dock, and with some smooth talking you can trick her into wandering out to the dock alone, in perfect position to get iced. Thats what I want as a rogue. People who want other people dead, and the means to do it. There should be a lot of npcs who want me to kill people for a price. That should be easy to implement. Assassinating the mayor of Rivervale is still one of my long term eq goals, and thats only for my own enjoyment. I would like to see a game where assassinating people is the primary function of an assassin, just as stealing should be the primary function of a thief.

I see some people arguing for group functionality etc, but I wholeheartedly reject the notion of a group friendly rogue, provided there are means of advancement that cater more closely to the rogue skill set. If you want to play primarily in groups, rogue is not the class for you. I understand that people like the eq melee king role, and I think that the "melee dps king" is a good and rewarding role, its just silly for that class to be the thief instead of a trained fighting class. Groups should use rogues for stealth, traps and locks, not their robust fighting abilities. That would, however, require an abundance of such things in the world as to have a use for rogues.

In summation my wishlist for rogues is
- Thieves have things to steal
- Assassins have people to assassinate
- Lots of traps and locks to provide group functionality

If I anyone ever makes a game with those 3 things I won't be able to get my wallet out fast enough.