View Full Version : Min-maxing and cookie cutter archetypes (slight rant)
Am I the only one who is really bothered with this? It seems that ever since I hit level 10 or so, all most of the people care about is building the 'perfect' character and anything less is unacceptable. Empathy defenders, flame tankers, and blasters are all the rage. Get enough of these together and the mobs go down so fast you don't even need to debuff them. The perfect way to get experience fast (reminds me of the old dark age of camelot PBAOE groups).
This hits me particularly hard as a dark miasma / dark blast defender. Everyone expects defenders to be empathy, to the point that most assume you will be healing them without even asking. I can't heal unless you are standing next to me and I hit a bad guy first (likewise with rez). Maybe that's just the weakness of my powerset, I don't know. Hell, I actually had somebody tell me (and everyone else in Perez Park) how worthless my powers were over broadcast when I was looking for a group, and how I'll be useless at high levels (no negative history or anything, complete stranger whom I never grouped with). I've been invited to groups that say things like I'll be 'good enough' or 'better than no healer'. That really starts to grate on you after a while. I know my powers aren't useless, but it really doesn't matter if that's what the playerbase thinks.
It's a little less evident with other classes I know, but I'm beginning to think I made a mistake when all I did was pick a powerset that seemed fun and interesting. Maybe I've just run into more asshats than normal, the people I group with are usually happy. Still, I won't deny that part of me is wondering what the future holds for my semi-healer defender.
DizzyKid
05-23-04, 10:59 PM
You're just around a lot of people with clouded thinking and are total sticks in the mud. 1/2 the people in CoH have never played another MMO and most will never notice anything "cool" or "good" unless you regen thier end, heal them for a ton, charge into a group of mobs and soak everything up, keep mobs visibly on their backs, or deal tons of frontloaded dmg. Most think CC is worthless and that debuffing is a waste of time. I've been in groups with my Controller and would see the AFK healer get praised after a hard fight where I was doing debuffing, cc, and heals. So basicaly, I really wouldn't worry about it.
--DK--
Yeah like someone said, 1/5th of all def choices involves healing. Do what you want and screw em. I will group with anyone in my lvl range or SK up to it. Its for fun.
El Sorriso
05-24-04, 12:43 AM
I can really see both sides of the story, maybe I'm an asshat too.
Take a group of 1 Scrapper, 1 Blaster, 1 Tanker, 1 Controller and add a Defender too it. Even if the Defender cannot heal on the level of Empathy defenders, he's still probably helping the group out more than any one individual (cept maybe the controller).
But many would see this group as incomplete without an empathy defender because of the decrease in downtime and decrease in people dying.
While this will always have some validity to it, I think it's more prevalent right now because people don't know how to play the game and a empathy healer gives you alot of room for error.
Competence levels right now vary REALLY wildly.
Yesterday I had a 8 Scrapper in a group of other 8s that could charge Hydra groups and win. Then today, he was 11 and in a group of 10-12s that kept dying even though we were trying to single pull the whole time.
EH, empathy is over rated. Our group of 8 is 20+ with no empathy defender. 1 controller and 1 debuffer is all we need then we just fill in the rest with whatever someone wants to play. ALthough rad/rad defender makes a group pretty much unstopable. I'd day that's the class you can't play without.
In the last week ive played in several groups,each with different playstyles.
The biggest problem i see,is that people expect a certain type of play,which pretty much relates to other online games,and how they function. everyone wants an empathy defender,because those defenders heal. As we know from daoc/eq & most other online games, people must have a healer, and tank to play in a group.
In coh,there are more ways to operate then just heal/tank mobs,given the AI of the game. As i play on victory,im finding that the super group people are good,about grouping or at least not worrying about death all that much. Outside of that i rarely bother to attempt to find pickup groups,as theres no point really. 75% of them are idiots,or want to play the old boring eq playstyle. The rest fall into the would group with,but its not worth the effort involved into putting up with the pickup group mentality.
Slyy Daugg
05-24-04, 04:21 AM
Pfft, I'll take a radiation defender, or even a controller with the radiation line secondary over and empathy defender any time.
SD
Peebs the low level game for most people involves no tactis, or pick the easiest tactic which atm is zerg and get a healer or 2 to spam heals. I think you would better off in a small group using tactics.
Seriously feel free to look me up on victory for some groupage or sidekicking or whatever. I prefer to group with those outside the box, whats fun about pbao and spam heals it was a bore in daoc its a bore here.
I run in a group of 3 usually and we always find a new tactic for whatever misison we are on and adjust. Sometimes its single pulls other times its zerg and do alot of damage, and other times we have a blaster dropping caltrops in strtegic locations and pull around corners etc. Its really a great game when you dont play the "omg must be in fastest group" and just play.
Dr. Cold 16 Ice/Rad Controller
Kunfoocious 15 Ma/Regen
Dr. Cold Fusion 8 Energy/Ice Blaster
-Victory-
The problem is that having an Empath Defender allows people to get away with their stupidity most of the time.
"No, you have no business taking on 35 purples at one time. Don't even think about it. Whats that, you have an Empathy Defender? Sure, go ahead!"
There are a few cases where Team composition can really make things impossible, but not often. For example, most of my SG decided to start over and they are all blasters + 1 scrapper. My only alt in that level range was a Tank. Mostly a defensive/Taunt Tank too. As you can imagine, there wasn't a lot of point in me being in that group. I'd do one fight, and be at 1/3 health for the next 5 fights while waiting for my health to slowly, slowly regen. Without a healer, or some major damage mitigation like force fields, a Tank isn't going to do much good at all in that kind of group.
So, I'm remaking a Controller to fit with them a little better. Illusion/Empathy, so we can get some healing in the mix too.
I was thinking about it, and most of my various characters actually are the stereotypes for various Archetypes. Empath Defender, Inv/SS tank, Assaut/Devices Blaster... I'm not really even trying to copy this stuff. Its just that I make a new character, think it looks cool, and then when I go read those classes boards, I find out that I have copied other people unintentionally.
I can really see both sides of the story, maybe I'm an asshat too.
Nah, I just said that maybe I had run into a few of them (like the guy in broadcast and the random people who give me some grief in groups), not that everyone who feels that way at all is one. I understand the philosophy, I guess it was just in my face for a large part of my playtime yesterday.
Jayan, I think you're right and I have been in a few very good small groups. One of the better ones I was in recently was just me, a tanker, and a gravity controller. Certainly a lot more fun that zerging hydras at the park anyway (although I don't begrudge those blasters that like that kind of thing more, seeing as how that's what they do and all). :p
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that I think I'm a better player than those who feel this way. I still have a lot to learn. I guess I was just starting to worry that they could be right. I've played enough MMORPG games to know that somehow, somewhere one or more classes/skills/powers/abilities/whatever get the shaft and are generally considered weak . After going through that several times with my last one (DAOC, shaman at release and later animist after Shrouded Isles), I guess I'm starting to get a little paranoid about it.
Ahh well, I can always start playing an alt or two (heck, my main is only level 12!) and try and see things from a different perspective. Thankfully there are enough group slots that groups can afford to take me AND an empath defender. I'm sure my damage debuff doesn't go unnoticed by them anyway. :)
Sabatini Scratch
05-24-04, 10:42 AM
Cookie cutterism is really starting to ruin the game for me. The way I see it, everyone is free to play what they want, be it cookie or something original. And I have yet to see a single archtype that couldn't be useful with a good player behind the wheel. It's just that most can't see beyond min/maxing and preconceptions of what everyone else can do.
I find it much more fun to be grouped with people who vary a little. It's challenging and fun to work out tactics based on what you have on hand in the current group. Start slow, get used to working with each other then take on bigger challenges til you find the right mix for your team.
I will always build my characters for my own personal enjoyment & character concept first, over any other consideration. My Invuln/Fire melee tanker will not be taking Unyielding stance or provoke because my swashbuckling robot needs uses jump kick for style and I need to be able to move to do that effectively. This will of course make me less popular with pickup groups later on as min/maxing defenders, controllers and blasters only want a tank in the group to cover their sloppy playstyles, and US/Provoke is the only method they accept.
Likewise my Energy/Energy Blaster packs a nice melee punch, because it fits his theme. That requires him to mix it up a bit up close and personal for maximum effect. But when done right, the enemies he faces are spending most of their time disorientated, knocked on their butts and battered off the real estate. I did get a lecture or two playing him...until I saved the healer's butt by knocking an enemy on him about a mile up the road with one of my punches.
My broadsword scrapper catches hell for taking flashy but not uber moves like Parry, but it fits the concept so I'm screw em if they don't like it. Who needs raw power when you have panache? They may not be seeing the difference the defense of that move, but I certainly do when I can't count on the others in my group.
But when in a small group of friends, even the oddest archtype can be alot of fun to play. Those are always the best times and make up for all the twits.
I am reflex/darkness scrapper.
It is kind of odd. I appealed to me instantly, and it seemed like it was meant to be together. Yet last night someone said "Wow, you went dark/reflex? that has got to really suck on the endurance"
It's odd because being I haven't played anything else, the endurance seems fine to me. More importantly I just love being what I am.
People will always go for the most powerful things they can find. It's the same group that has all 17+ on pen and paper games. Being an average hero isn't much fun for some people.
-L
Morvran
05-24-04, 11:04 AM
Listen, all that matters in my groups is solid/intelligent tactics and good personalities. Anyone with archetype issues can stick 'em up their butts, because realistically the difference between a good group and a bad one is that one makes good decisions and knows how to play their own character.
You can have the oddest archetype in the game, but if you play the character well, then you're welcome to play with me. The bad players are ones who roll a controller but feel they should blast away with their one dmg spell, or step in to melee.
Playing against your archetype is very different from playing a weird archetype well.
Gnmish Gearbinder
05-24-04, 11:29 AM
Yea, I went on a little rant about this last week or so. I still think that Invuln/SS is a bigger min/max template than Fire Tankers though. I refuse to play with pickup groups now. I'd rather solo greens, I'd make more exp in the long run that way.
There are alot of smacktards in this game unfortunately and it's difficult to protect yourself from them. My last pickup group was 2 blasters, a controller, and myself. Lotsa squishies, high maintenence group for a tanker. The two blasters hauled off and let loose a volley into a crowd of purples. The controller started throwing holds...and me...I flew away. They were dead seconds later. There was no discussion about whether we should attack them or not...just hauled off and blasted away. They probably didn't even check the color.
Sadly, there are two major groups in the game right now, the n00bs like the ones above, and the min-maxers. Most of us here are stuck inbetween.
I pointed for my nearest contact, dropped the group and didn't look back.
EDIT: Oops, forgot a paragraph. My regular group, oddly enough, is three blasters, a controller, two tankers. No real healing to speak of in there...we get a small heal from the controller. I can heal myself pretty good. Other than that, nada. We do just fine. There's alot of taunting going on though. Blasters piss stuff off in short order.
Peebs dark/dark defender might work well with our little group. Seriously look me up I havent logged to many hours with a dark/dark in a group and would love to see what they bring to the table.
We arent even much higher than you so grouping would work fine, I love to mix and match differnt strategies its alot of fun.
Dr. Cold 16 Ice/Rad Controller
Kunfoocious 15 Ma/Regen
Dr. Cold Fusion 8 Energy/Ice Blaster
-Victory-
Sounds fun! I'll have to look you up next time I'm on. I already have a bunch of safehousers on my friends list, but haven't seen too many on when I've been on the last few days. :)
Great post your name and ill add ya to friends.
Dr. Cold 16 Ice/Rad Controller
Kunfoocious 15 Ma/Regen
Dr. Cold Fusion 8 Energy/Ice Blaster
-Victory-
I am usally on Foo or Dr. Cold.
Pratell
05-24-04, 01:10 PM
Yea, I went on a little rant about this last week or so.
:beatup
(BTW Gnmish, bud should have his comp soon and we'll be on this week)
Xantium
05-24-04, 01:38 PM
I'll take a dark/dark defender any day of the week, between the accuracy debuffs and my tanking powers I'd never be touched.
I'm Miasmar, lately normally found hanging around Steel Canyon or Perez Park.
Funny thing though, I noticed one of my alternates (level 3, hehe) is invulnerable/SS too. I think one of the problems is that there are so many 'elemental' type tank powers that don't really fit into the persona of most people's characters. I think tankers could use a few more interesting defense primary pool powers (like maybe a 'massive' or 'armored/metal' one for instance).
clangedinn
05-24-04, 03:41 PM
i normally group with a emp/elec defender and a dark/dark defender with my stone/ss tanker and we do great. With moonbeam he is able to single all day long and some of his debuffs are great. I catch crap all the time in a pick up group for taking and using mudpots and not rooted but after all is said and done they may ahve said something about me taking said skill but never question my ability to hold agro. Play waht you like there are to may folks out there doing the min max thing. I have found that playing with a small group of friends and running missions is way more fun that running to the park and getting into a pick up death group.
Panamah
05-24-04, 04:10 PM
Hmmm... to me the perfect character is the one with the right name, the right costume and the right set of skills to go along with it all!
For instance, "The Scorned Woman" has to be a Fire/Fire tanker. Couldn't possibly be anything else.
Telurinon
05-24-04, 04:46 PM
Last night, I was in a group. 1 blaster, 1 Controller and myself as my tanker. The controller said, "Hey, I want to recruit some more folks, you guys mind?" I reply "Sure, but...the less Blasters the better."
"Why?" she asks.
"Personal preferrence. If everything dies before I can swing twice, where is the fun in that?"
She recruited 4 Defenders and a Scrapper.
It was a FUN group.
Panamah
05-24-04, 05:28 PM
Yeah, I feel sorry for scrappers in caster heavy groups. That's gotta be frustrating when your oponents are being pushed out of melee range by people like me with my storm winds, or levitated and knocked back.
I had great fun duoing with a scrapper. But then again, the chaos caused by a lot of blsters is fun too.
Morvran
05-24-04, 09:53 PM
As a scrapper, I don't mind if things go flying around. I usually have "follow" on against mobs so my toon will go wherever they go. It stinks more I would think when a someone is using a power that doesn't allow them to move.
DarthEnder
05-24-04, 10:25 PM
Yep, autofollow on the mob and ctrl+left click my fastest attack, I can pretty much go AFK in a casterheavy group. Guhahahahahaha!!!
Pharroh
05-25-04, 07:50 AM
In my experience, you take a group with an Empathy Defender, and add a Storm Defender, and suddenly the Empathy Defender has nothing to do.
Anyways, it sucks that you are dealing with people like that. The solution is to build up your /friend list, and not do pick up groups any more. I don't know if I've just been lucky, or what, but by level 14, I already have enough really nice people on my list that I don't really need to go "lfg" any more.
But you have to be "brave", and go "lfg" at some point, in order to get those people on your list...
In my experience, you take a group with an Empathy Defender, and add a Storm Defender, and suddenly the Empathy Defender has nothing to do.
Hey, we can still act as a third rate blaster!
Besides, with Recovery Aura, they'll still keep us around. Everyone loves their crack dealer. :D
True, usually for every couple of dud groups I manage to get in one were I'm with some really exceptional people. For example, last night I joined a group and the first thing the tank said was 'damage debuff, cool' and for the rest of the night he'd hand me all of his endurance inspirations (I'd hand him others in return). He also stuck with the group when we asked!
And what is it with blasters and the concept of 'staying together' anyway? I swear half of the groups I'm in the blasters run this way and that shooting at anything that moves despite my 'stick together for heals and buffs' cries. Sometimes they eventually get it, and I understand the need to move around to target cone/AE blasts, but once your done get back to the group if the defenders ask because a lot of us can't target our heals or buffs.
Sabatini Scratch
05-25-04, 08:51 AM
My feeling is if they stray too far, I shed no tears when they die. :)
Too many blasters these days seem to be suffering from 'EQ Kiting Druid Syndrome' even when in groups. It's extremely annoying.
Leiciphis
05-25-04, 07:35 PM
Everyone loves their crack dealer. :D
Speaking of which, have you been with a kinetics defender yet? Speed boost increases running speed, attack rate, and endurance recovery. In a large group, I can cast speed boost on everyone (which is very taxing on my own end), and they rarely break for endurance.
I attack rarely, yet people are sad when I (their crack dealer) leave them. This attack style fits with my character. Named "I Blend In", he tries desperately not to stand out, but the bright red suit shows that he's not too good at it. He'll read a newspaper in the middle of a battle, standing next to a bunch of mobs, etc. Sometimes he chooses a random civilian to follow (while I go afk).
Though he does no damage, he helps a group deal damage trememdously. Though he doesn't really heal, he'll speed up a healer. This guy most resembles a group's toy, especially for large groups. We defenders are aesthetic pleasure, and we help others do what they do.
The difference between an empathy defender and other defenders is that empathy defenders' effects are a lot more evident. People can tell when their health goes back up, or when recovery aura gives them unlimited endurance for a bit. But the other defenders' effects are only noticed when they're gone. People easily can tell Speed Boost's run speed increase. But when I'd ask people if they noticed better endurance recovery, they'd say, "Yeah, it helps a bit, I guess." After I'd leave, their average endurance would quickly drop. It's no suprise that defenders are synonomous with healers: they notice how the healers help more than anything else.
Actually, in a weird way I see the upcoming changes as helping my class out quite a bit. The main problem with my character, is that debuffs are no good on things that don't do much damage in the first place and/or don't live more than a few seconds. If I read the patch notes correctly, higher level mobs will now be much more powerful than they used to be, making debuffs more worthwhile.
Anyway, I'm having fun and that's all that really matters. Killing things solo is tedious, but saving an entire group with one use of a power makes it all worthwhile. :)
ShadowCross
05-25-04, 11:47 PM
Dark / Dark scrapper here - I've never been asked about my powers.
Seems people don't about what kind of scrapper you are - because all of them deal plenty of damage.
On topic of invul/ss tankers - I see them regulary, and a RL friend plays one too... I don't see anything wrong with them at all.
DarthEnder
05-26-04, 04:31 AM
Actually, I was in a pretty interesting group the other day. It was, like, me(scrapper), 1 controller, and 5 blasters. I was kinda pissed at first when the leader just kept inviting blasters, but they coordinated, and it worked amazingly.
One blaster would agro the mobs, one of them would throw caltrops, and the controller would hit them with his crowd control when they hit the caltrops. Then all the blasters would assist one of the blasters and stuff was just obliterated. Orange con bosses would completely crumple under the fire, bearly even getting a power off before they died.
It was the coolest group I was every completely useless in.
Sabatini Scratch
05-26-04, 08:14 AM
Yeah I've been in a few groups like that. Groups of enemies slowed by caltrops, ranged types blowing the crap out of them, and me just standing there dramatically because it's positively stupid to run forward and engage because it's more effective to stand back and not give them a target to hit.
It's the main reason I wish there were even the lightest ranged power available in the Broadsword set, or a pool with a ranged attack. Just to have something to look like I'm contributing in those groups. I keep finding myself wishing even one idiot would slip past the 'field of death' so I could have something to smack around and pretend I'm keeping the blasters safe. :)
Dark/Reflex scrapper. Was in a group, not sure of the make up of it actually. Am still very new, but when we came into a room full of 10 or whatever mobs, I would charge in at the highest con, and lay into them.
By the time I killed the one I was on, there would be 2-3 mostly dead guys left. Lots of flashing, and one other scrapper, doing about the same as me. I enjoy planned fights sometimes, but what I love most is how utter chaos can result in a win against enemies. No one ever died, and we cleared the whole dungeon very quickly. Surprised me actually quite a bit.
-L