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EZ_Aurarier
03-30-04, 02:49 PM
I ran across this on slashdot.

"The two distinguished gentlemen Strumpf and Oberholzer-Gee have most likely made RIAA executives choke on their lunches. Those two economists at Harvard and UNC-Chapel Hill have done the research and the math on how much CD sales are actually hurt by P2P sharing. The answer: A whopping one CD per 5,000 files downloaded. Needless to say, RIAA are already trying to discredit the study."

Here 's the article they're referring to.

Quote:Study: File-Sharing No Threat to Music Sales
By David McGuire, washingtonpost.com Staff Writer

Internet music piracy has no negative effect on legitimate music sales, according to a study released today by two university researchers that contradicts the music industry's assertion that the illegal downloading of music online is taking a big bite out of its bottom line.

Songs that were heavily downloaded showed no measurable drop in sales, the researchers found after tracking sales of 680 albums over the course of 17 weeks in the second half of 2002. Matching that data with activity on the OpenNap file-sharing network, they concluded that file sharing actually increases CD sales for hot albums that sell more than 600,000 copies. For every 150 downloads of a song from those albums, sales increase by a copy, the researchers found.

"Consumption of music increases dramatically with the introduction of file sharing, but not everybody who likes to listen to music was a music customer before, so it's very important to separate the two," said Felix Oberholzer-Gee, an associate professor at Harvard Business School and one of the authors of the study.

Oberholzer-Gee and his colleague, University of North Carolina's Koleman Strumpf, also said that their "most pessimistic" statistical model showed that illegal file sharing would have accounted for only 2 million fewer compact discs sales in 2002, whereas CD sales declined by 139 million units between 2000 and 2002.

"From a statistical point of view, what this means is that there is no effect between downloading and sales," said Oberholzer-Gee.

For albums that fail to sell well, the Internet may contribute to declining sales. Oberholzer-Gee and Strumpf found that albums that sell to niche audiences suffer a "small negative effect" from Internet piracy.

The study stands in opposition to the recording industry's long-held assertion that the rise of illegal file sharing is a major cause of declining music sales over the past few years. In making its case, the Recording Industry Association of America (news - web sites) (RIAA) points to data showing that CD sales fell from a high of more than $13.2 billion in 2000 to $11.2 billion in 2003 -- a period that matches the growth of various online music piracy services.

The RIAA has fought illegal music swapping by filing a raft of lawsuits against hundreds of individuals suspected of engaging in music piracy, as well as suits targeting companies like Kazaa and Grokster that make software or run Internet downloading services.

Wayne Rosso, president of the Madrid-based file-sharing company Optisoft, said he hoped the study would spur the RIAA to abandon litigation and look for ways to commercialize file sharing. "There's no question that there is a market there that could easily be commercialized and we have been trying for years to talk sense to these people and make them see that," he said. Rosso formerly ran the Grokster file-sharing service.

Eric Garland, chief executive of Big Champagne, an Atlanta company that tracks file-sharing activity, said the findings match what his company has observed about the effect of file sharing on music sales. Although the practice cannibalizes some sales, it may promote others by serving as a marketing tool, Garland said.

The RIAA questioned the conclusions reached by Oberholzer-Gee and Strumpf.

"Countless well respected groups and analysts, including Edison Research, Forrester, the University of Texas, among others, have all determined that illegal file sharing has adversely impacted the sales of CDs," RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss said.

Weiss cited a survey conducted by Houston-based Voter Consumer Research that found those who illegally download more music from the Internet buy less from legitimate outlets. Of respondents ages 18-24 who download, 33 percent said they bought less music than in the past year while 21 percent bought more. Of those ages 25-34, the survey found 25 percent bought less and 17 percent bought more, Weiss said.

Larry Rosin, the president of Somerville, N.J.-based Edison Media Research, said it was absurd to suggest that the Internet and file sharing have not had a profound effect on the music industry.

"Anybody who says that the Internet has not affected sales is just not paying attention to what is going on out there," he said. "It's had an effect on everything else in life, why wouldn't it have an effect on this?"

Edison Media Research has done a series of surveys for a music industry trade publication to track the effect of online file sharing on music sales. Rosin said while file-sharing networks can generate advertising value for some CDs, the net effect of file sharing on music sales has been negative.

The Harvard-UNC study is not the first to take aim at the assertion that online music piracy is the leading factor hurting music sales. In two studies conducted in 1999 and 2002, Jupiter Research analyst Aram Sinnreich found that persons who downloaded music illegally from the Internet were also active purchasers of music from legitimate sources.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

"While some people seemed to buy less after file sharing, more people seemed to buy more," Sinnreich said. "It was more likely to increase somebody's purchasing habits."

The 2002 Jupiter study showed that people who traded files for more than six months were 75 percent more likely than average online music fans to spend more money on music.

Sinnreich, no longer with Jupiter, has appeared in court as an expert witness on behalf of Grokster, a popular music downloading site that was sued by the recording industry for facilitating music piracy. In that case, a judge ruled that Grokster and several other services that distribute peer-to-peer software could not be shut down just because the software was used to violate intellectual property

EZ_Diabalein Avidyia
03-30-04, 03:11 PM
"Weiss cited a survey conducted by Houston-based Voter Consumer Research that found those who illegally download more music from the Internet buy less from legitimate outlets. Of respondents ages 18-24 who download, 33 percent said they bought less music than in the past year while 21 percent bought more. Of those ages 25-34, the survey found 25 percent bought less and 17 percent bought more, Weiss said.

Larry Rosin, the president of Somerville, N.J.-based Edison Media Research, said it was absurd to suggest that the Internet and file sharing have not had a profound effect on the music industry.

"Anybody who says that the Internet has not affected sales is just not paying attention to what is going on out there," he said. "It's had an effect on everything else in life, why wouldn't it have an effect on this?""


I like they way they avoid the truly obvious answer here, if I dl a few song off of random suckass artists newest album because the 1 song thats on the radio is good and I find out everything else blows of course I am not going to buy it, BEFORE file sharing and rampant use of message boards and chat rooms the only way to find out that the album sucked was to buy it.
Bummer for the recording industry that like all other aspects of life, Knowledge is power and a more informed customer base means they sell less crap than they used to.

as for the people not paying for music, here is a true and breif example of me and the last 3 cd's I paid cash for (after special ordering 2 of them)

I run into this raver chick I used to know and we are talking about music, she names a few bands that I might like and I dl a few tracks here and there and check them out. Naked Funk is a band that I find from her list that I like alot. I buy Evolution Ending, which has in the back of the sleeve some info on other bands/dj's which leads me to dj Mark Farina, dl some of his stuff, like it alot, pick up mushroom Jazz Volume whatever, which in the back of that Sleeve had info on some other bands so I dl some of that stuff and find Soulstice, I go out and buy THAT album.
note that NOT ONE of these bands or albums or Songs is available to listen to on radio/mtv/any media other than a few net stations and the wonders of p2p. 3 cd's 3 artists and 3 labels all made a sale thanks to p2p. I never would have even known any of these existed without the raver chick but without p2p there is no way in hell I was going to run out and blow 200$ to find out that I liked one cd, find the bands listed in that one and blow another 100$+ to find out I liked one of those bands then blow yet ANOTHER 100$+ to find out I liked one of those.

what is the riaa crying about? the fact that they didnt get 400$ of my money I wasnt going to spend or the fact that they (and yes I realise that in this case the riaa made **** off me) sold 3 cd's that never would have found their way into my collection without p2p services.

these guys are stuck in the 60's and the world of technology is blasting past them at warp 12. the recording industry needs to fire ceo's and other executives en mass and bring in some people who have actually used a computer for something besides email. Edited by: Diabalein Avidyia at: 3/30/04 3:13 pm

EZ_Aurarier
03-30-04, 03:48 PM
I understand the RIAA's concern, but I think their methods are despicable. Do I need to rehash the story of the 12-year-old girl they brought to court?

Whether or not its illegal, I think record companies are getting what they deserve. The cost to produce a CD is next-to-nothing. Each actual CD probably costs less than 25 cents to put out. I'll be generous and give them maybe an extra 3 or 4 bucks per CD for recording rights and so forth. What do they sell the CDs for? $15-20? If we're really generous with their costs, that's a 500% markup. People paid it, so I can't blame them for taking advantage of what people are willing to pay. But now they can't do that anymore, and I refuse to pity anyone who gripes because they can't sell a product for 5X its production value anymore. Karma's a bitch, get over it.

EZ_Diabalein Avidyia
03-30-04, 04:21 PM
"Karma's a bitch, get over it."


so sig worthy.

EZ_pulid
03-30-04, 05:03 PM
I don't see how the RIAA's responce was unreasonable.

They said

Quote:"Countless well respected groups and analysts, including Edison Research, Forrester, the University of Texas, among others, have all determined that illegal file sharing has adversely impacted the sales of CDs," RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss said.

Which is very true. Just because you found one study that supports your opinion doesn't automatically mean the others are all wrong.

EZ_Gyorg
03-30-04, 06:29 PM
I don't trust the RIAA to not manipulate the facts pulid. Technically, even this report showed that downloading music decreases CD sales.

EZ_Matheren
03-30-04, 06:57 PM
they have distorted them. there was an argument on here maybe two years ago, where someone produced a link about the RIAA's claimed drop in cd sales - and the sales that dropped were cd SINGLES, not full albums.

Darkefang
03-31-04, 06:19 AM
I'm sure this report has its own flaws, but is closer to the truth than the RIAA-sponsored studies. Now, if it turns out the guys who did this research were paid by Kazaa, or by someone sued for downloading songs, we can toss it in the same pile as the RIAA research.

One big flaw I remember from RIAA research is that they didn't have a way of tracking albums purchased directly from the artist. The internet has opened up ways for musicians to sell directly to the public, skipping the record industry entirely. This could have a huge effect, or a minor effect, on record sales, but nobody has really determined the effect.

Quote:Whether or not its illegal, I think record companies are getting what they deserve. The cost to produce a CD is next-to-nothing. Each actual CD probably costs less than 25 cents to put out. I'll be generous and give them maybe an extra 3 or 4 bucks per CD for recording rights and so forth. What do they sell the CDs for? $15-20? If we're really generous with their costs, that's a 500% markup.

There are two things here that people remember, and may discourage them from buying CDs. The first is that the recording industry lost that lawsuit a few years ago, where it was found that the companies had conspired to fix CD prices. Record companies are now viewed by many people in the same light in which they view oil companies, and that isn't a good thing.

The other is that more and more people have heard how artists are paid by the record companies. They know that while some of the superstars run their own labels, or get huge paychecks per album produced, that most do not get this kind of money. Most get $1 to $3 per CD sold. This is out of around $15 per CD. Then, record companies take the costs of producing the album, marketing the album/band, and all the other costs associated with the band out of their earnings. Many people would rather just give all the money from the sale of the CD to the band itself.

EZ_Ignas Atergradus
03-31-04, 10:07 AM
The important thing to notice in these surveys is the questions that are asked to the responders. IE:

Quote:Weiss cited a survey conducted by Houston-based Voter Consumer Research that found those who illegally download more music from the Internet buy less from legitimate outlets. Of respondents ages 18-24 who download, 33 percent said they bought less music than in the past year while 21 percent bought more. Of those ages 25-34, the survey found 25 percent bought less and 17 percent bought more, Weiss said.

Look more specifically at this:

Quote:Of respondents age 18-24 who download, 33 percent said they bought less music then in the past year while 21 percent bought more.

This mentions nothing of the reasons WHY they bought more or less, only that they download and their age.

They could very well have bought less because there was no music worth buying. Or they could have bought less because they downloaded everything they were going to buy. This is jumping to a conclusion that the survey does not really support. If they said they asked the respondents "Did you buy less music because you download it now?" and 33 percent said yes, that would be a much more concrete survey for the RIAA's argument.

I personally would have to answer no to that question. I have bought more music in the last year because I downloaded it first and discovered I liked the artist and CD.