No discussion of the Fallujah murders?

[EZ_Ciba]

The link below is NOT FOR THOSE WITH WEAK STOMACHS.
Admins, please remove this if it is to extreme even for links from The Safehouse.

I tell you, between this and Palestinians partying in the street after 9/11, it's hard not to be a bigot. Is anyone else having this problem?

Four american contractors were murdered in Fallujah. Afterwards, the mob mutilated the bodies and strung them up from a bridge.

Video From Fallujah - Read the red before you click.

In case the link is removed: You can get less news/video/pictures from Yahoo! News.

[Biggwin]

I am at the point where I want to say @#$% it. Pull all of our troups out of everywhere. If we are attacked we attack back. Long range style.

If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.

[EZ_Raith Fennin Ro]

I don't know what to say about it. I've never seen so much concentrated hatred. Its horrible. I know that. I know it doesn't represent everyone in Iraq's opinion. I know the wrong response is killing every last one of them. What do you do? Civil justice enforced on a brutal population seems like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. One thing for sure, I hope we never back off. Even if we are there for 50 years. They can never believe that that sort of thing will keep us from finishing what we started.

Edit: There are animals I would consider more human than the people involved in that act. Edited by: Raith Fennin Ro at: 4/1/04 2:29 pm

[Caowyth]

Quote:If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.

We'd run out of American's pretty quick doing that...

Oh, you meant we'd kill 100,000 of THEM, nm.


What happened there is a tragedy, both for the loss of life and for the appallingly barbaric reaction of the mob. It's what happens anytime that lack of education and zealotism get the opportunity to do harm.

I honestly don't know how you go about combatting ignorance and religious zealotism without trampling all over the rights we in this country cherish. I don't even know if it's possible even if we did break the rules.

I'd say we should work on building them schools, but we have a hard enough time educating our own children. Maybe we could get Japan to run the education portion.

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

It made me sick to my stomach honestly. These weren't US combatants; they were US contractors who were just there to repair the country. Obviously they didn't care too much, other than the fact that they were American.

Acts like that go against the principles of just about ALL religions including Islam, so I'm not sure how they are going to explain the act other than murder.
----------
"You there, fill it up with petroleum distillate, and re-vulcanize my tires, post-haste! Also, I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?" - Monty BurnsEdited by: Bondori Zafiro at: 4/1/04 3:13 pm

[DarkOmen42]

These guys worked for a security company here in North Carolina. They did security for food shipments, not trying to discredit you or nothing just wanted to make sure accurate info is out there.

I was for the war, still am, and think this is disgusting. Not much else there is to be said. Hara

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Ah, I just figured they were reconstruction contractors.

[DarkOmen42]

Nod, most of the time contractors are contractors. Only reason I know is cause I live in NC and some of the local news gave some info about them. I haven't seen anything on the major news outlets about it. Hara

[Krimzan]

Quote:
If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.

Yeah, that works so well for Israel.

[Caowyth]

Quote:Nod, most of the time contractors are contractors.

For some reason this conversation is now giving me Clerks flashbacks.

[EZ_minoltasrt101b]

What can you say about something like this?

Let's not forget atrocity happens everywhere. Edited by: minoltasrt101b at: 4/1/04 10:04 pm

[EZ_Boot Disk]

Quote:If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.

Right. No offense, but didn't we all learn the error of that logic in, like, kindergarten? A kid pushes you, you punch him, he gets a stick, you get a stone, he gets daddy's gun . . . Not to mention that's blatantly racist. Have you hugged your usurer today?

[DarkOmen42]

... Maybe I'm missing something, but where are the racial undertones there. Hara

[EZ_Ciba]

Can you link me to a news article where there were hundreds of people partying in the streets after they murdered Matthew Shepard? THAT is the difference here. I'm not talking about hate crimes perpetrated by a few people, but hate crimes where people celebrate.

Post 9/11 and after this there were thousands/hundreds of people partying in the streets. How is one to think of these monsters as anything other than subhuman? Edited by: Ciba at: 4/1/04 3:52 pm

[Caowyth]

Quote:A kid pushes you, you punch him, he gets a stick, you get a stone, he gets daddy's gun . . .

I'm guessing I had a much different childhood than Boot Disk, or my schoolmates parents had fewer guns.

minoltas, there's a significant difference between the two. Matthew Shepards killers certainly wouldn't have been brazen enough to do it on television, or in public. There's a different type of evil going on here altogether.

Neither of the killers has gone out of their way to make inflammatory anti-homosexual remarks after or during the trial (that I know of).

[Krimzan]

Quote:
Post 9/11 and after this there were thousands/hundreds of people partying in the streets. How is one to think of these monsters as anything other than subhuman?

They are, in fact, a perfect example of humanity at it's not-so-finest. You are forgetting the consistantly ignored, yet ever-important issue of 'point of view'.

[Marbh]

Actually if you want examples of mob violence with celebration afterwords, look to our own history, happened after the NY draft riots, happened a lot after lynchings. Ever see the pictures of people taking their pictures in front of hung blacks? I point out two examples one north and one south to show how we had some very bad tendencies ourselves.

What happened was a despicable act, and those guilty need to be found, but don't pretend that we as Americans would never resort to the same type of activity, it's human beings who do this sort of sick thing, not nationalities.

[EZ_Geidon]

If I ran this country...we would open fire on so many of those worthless @#%$. Hell I would declare a holy war against all extremist islamics and ask them to all meet up in the middle of a big open desert and just fly in air strikes and send them straight to allah.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:Ever see the pictures of people taking their pictures in front of hung blacks?

Yeah, all in black and white. It's like bringing up the crusades in the argument as well. Try something current, both of my examples are within the last five years.

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

The news footage was actually a little bit relieving. For starters, there were not a huge crowd of people out there cheering them on; most of the people stayed probably 300 feet back near the buildings just wondering wtf was going on.

I just think they should hammer down on the sunni triangle, these were the people that never wanted to see saddam go. Edited by: Bondori Zafiro at: 4/1/04 6:22 pm

[Meddik]

In that area of Iraq, among the baathist thugs that populate it, It isn't a surprise at all.

[EZ_MorrellVZ]

I don't see how having your dead body mutilated by a mob and having your dead body mutilated by a 2,000 pound LGB is that much different? Maybe someone would like to elaborate. How does a group of people fight their oppressors when their oppressors have modern weapons and the rebels only have a few small arms? There's two ways. One is nonviolent resistance. The other is terrorism and guerilla activities. You have to understand that to these people, terrorism is to them their only way to go about it. They see destruction of American forces as the only way to get rid of them, not through belligerent nonviolence.

Ciba:
Quote:Can you link me to a news article where there were hundreds of people partying in the streets after they murdered Matthew Shepard? THAT is the difference here. I'm not talking about hate crimes perpetrated by a few people, but hate crimes where people celebrate.

Phelps and his crew seem to enjoy shouting out to high heaven about Shepard and other gays dying: www.fortwayne.com/mld/for...682634.htm . Sure, it's not partying, but it's damn close enough.

Quote:Post 9/11 and after this there were thousands/hundreds of people partying in the streets. How is one to think of these monsters as anything other than subhuman?

Remember that video from an AC-130 gunship killing Taliban members? Remember all the comments that went generally like "Haha, yeah, kill em!" "Wow, that looked awesome." Is there 100 % verification that every single person that was hit was a Taliban/Al-Qaeda member? So for all you know, many people here probably celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians? And you have to also consider that to these people, they are fighting a war with America, of course they're gonna celebrate a monumental strike on their enemy. But to call them subhuman is errant and rather imperial of you. You're no more human than they are, you've just grown up with a different set of morals and experiences.

Quote:Yeah, all in black and white. It's like bringing up the crusades in the argument as well. Try something current, both of my examples are within the last five years.

Except that the Arab world (And most of Africa, Asia, and South America) are still coping with an immense technological growth that's occured practically within the last 100 years, going from swords to automatic weapons, camel to Land Rover, candle to halogen lights. You have a situation where these ancient and relatively unchanged cultures are mixing with modern technology. If Europeans and Americans had gone through that much change as quickly as some of these populations did, I don't think we'd exactly have our most obviously superior (/sarcasm off) morals.

Geidon:
Quote:If I ran this country...we would open fire on so many of those worthless @#%$. Hell I would declare a holy war against all extremist islamics and ask them to all meet up in the middle of a big open desert and just fly in air strikes and send them straight to allah.

And I'm glad you don't run this country, you'd probably get us all killed. We have enough people wanting to destroy us as is.

[EZ_Raith Fennin Ro]

There is a difference. It may not always be as significant as we here in the US believe. But the difference is there.

And yes anyone that could commit an act like this is subhuman wherever they live. There is no argument that could convince anyone otherwise. There is no justification. Feel free to substitute less evolved, less morally advanced, less socially advanced, etc., but subhuman works for me.

Behave like an animal, expect to be called an animal, and very possibly treated like one. Just hope that where you are they treat animals humanely.

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Quote:How does a group of people fight their oppressors when their oppressors have modern weapons and the rebels only have a few small arms? There's two ways. One is nonviolent resistance. The other is terrorism and guerilla activities. You have to understand that to these people, terrorism is to them their only way to go about it.
Oh ok, that was my problem, I just wasn't understanding the terrorist. Now it makes this so much better, and I feel that beating the dead corpses with a metal pole and stringing their charred bodies above a bridge while chanting anti-American slogans is perfectly a-o-k. It's the way "these people" do things, right?

@#%$ that.
Edited by: Bondori Zafiro at: 4/1/04 7:18 pm

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Here is some good additional reading.

[EZ_Geidon]

Quote:And I'm glad you don't run this country, you'd probably get us all killed. We have enough people wanting to destroy us as is.
That is why I want all the people who wanna kill us in one spot....so I can off them much easier. Hey...it isn't humane or partically sane but what can ya do. Quick solution to a big problem.

[EZ_MorrellVZ]

Quote:There is a difference. It may not always be as significant as we here in the US believe. But the difference is there.

Where is this difference? (and what difference are you talking about, I'm not quite clear.)

Quote:And yes anyone that could commit an act like this is subhuman wherever they live. There is no argument that could convince anyone otherwise. There is no justification. Feel free to substitute less evolved, less morally advanced, less socially advanced, etc., but subhuman works for me.

Behave like an animal, expect to be called an animal, and very possibly treated like one. Just hope that where you are they treat animals humanely.

Sorry, calling another human subhuman flies in the face of ignorance and hypocrisy. For one thing, Americans, and especially those which hold your value set, are in the small minority of the human race. If anything, you are less human than the average. Secondly, just because you hold your moral values doesn't make it right. Just like if someone had higher morals than you and chastised you for it, surely you'd defend it saying that it doesn't make you any less human for it. Again, what makes a human but a specific DNA type? Morality is not universal, black and white, good and evil. You're just espousing the beliefs of moral imperialism.

Oh, and you behave like an animal. You eat, breathe, urinate, defecate, move, show happiness, sadness, energy and lethargy. Should we treat you like an animal?

Quote:Oh ok, that was my problem, I just wasn't understanding the terrorist. Now it makes this so much better, and I feel that beating the dead corpses with a metal pole and stringing their charred bodies above a bridge while chanting anti-American slogans is perfectly a-o-k. It's the way "these people" do things, right?

And your attitude will never cure terrorism in any of its forms. I don't doubt that if you were pushed into a corner by much larger foes you would not result to cheap tactics to gain an edge. It's exactly the same thing that these people are doing. The only thing I can gather from your attitude is you feel that the fight between the US Army and the Iraqi freedom fighters (fun to throw that term around) is a fair one? Alas, at least it got your attention, maybe you can start educating yourself about the plight of these peoples and why they may be motivated to fight the US Army in their homeland. But your right, we should just kill them if they don't like us, why bother to think why it is that way. And that moon sure is scary, let's throw rocks at it.

[EZ_Boot Disk]

>>but where are the racial undertones there.

. . . Uh, those were in the part where you said the penalty for one american murder should be the execution of ten foreigners.

>>I'm guessing I had a much different childhood than Boot Disk, or my schoolmates parents had fewer guns.

Whatever. Don't deny it. Teenagers fight and teenagers get killed. There's a fifteen-year-old girl in my county on trial right now for murdering a sixteen-year-old boy. Do you think it started with the hammer he was beaten to death with? My best friend was stabbed in the back while he was at school. (Thank God he survived.)

Same thing with countries.

[EZ_Raith Fennin Ro]

The difference between killing someone with a bomb and killing someone with a gun is slight yes. The beating of said body, burning it, dismembering it, dragging it through the streets, and hanging it from a bridge, is where the difference lies.

I'm quite happy to be considered a moral imperialist if I am considered such because I can see the difference.

As far as the animal comparison. True, by your definition, we are all animals. If anything I am insulting the animal kingdom by comparing these "people" with animals. My use of the word human seemed to confuse you. I meant these people were acting beneath any human moral standard. You're right this doesn't make them animals, it makes them monsters that defy categorizing.

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Quote:The only thing I can gather from your attitude is you feel that the fight between the US Army and the Iraqi freedom fighters (fun to throw that term around) is a fair one? Alas, at least it got your attention, maybe you can start educating yourself about the plight of these peoples and why they may be motivated to fight the US Army in their homeland. But your right, we should just kill them if they don't like us, why bother to think why it is that way.

Your attitude reeks with anti-American sentiment, so I'm not going to argue with you beyond this post. Firstly I never said anything about killing anybody responsible for this. Stringing dead corpses up over a bridge with the excuse "we hate American’s this much" does not equal freedom fighting unless you take into the consideration of a small sect in the Sunni triangle who wants nothing more than to see the west destroyed. The civilians were not oppressors; these weren't god damn marines with M-16's. They weren't killed because they were causing trouble in Iraq, they were gruesome murdered and had their corpses desecrated because they were American and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You strike me as the same kind of person who believes blowing themselves up in a bus full of children, women, and elderly are just "freedom fighting." They aren't terrorist, they are just misunderstood, right? Or even launching missiles from attack helicopters to kill hamas leaders and whoever might be standing by is okay too. Or, if you're like me, you think they are both wrong.

The only freedom these men were fighting for was that of their sect, not that of Iraq (which is what you seem to believe).

[Zeno]

Since the sick bastages who committed these atrocities were caught on camera, don't we have a good chance of finding and arresting them?
(I have no idea, I don't know the population of Fallujah or how hard it would be to track them down....)

[DarkOmen42]

Quote:. . . Uh, those were in the part where you said the penalty for one american murder should be the execution of ten foreigners.

Genocidal maybe, but not racist. Hara

[Marbh]

Ciba, you pointed out that the lynchings were a long time ago, well I tend to forget that anything over 50 years in this country is treated like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that aside think about how long we have been a country versus some of the other nations we point at. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, large portions of Iraq were home to desert nomads. You can't expect civilization to sink it's roots so very deep in less than a hundred years. They were living under the Ottoman Empire, not known for it's libertarian ideals. Give them time, and they will come around, but they will do their share of bloody deed in the meantine. We have done so, and still haven't shaken the atavistic monkey off our back, despite a representative democracy, government funded schools ect.
How many inhumane things do we hear about every week and shrug off because we're used to hearing about them? Cannibalistic serial murders, abusive parents, stalker ex boyfriends, mothers who stone their children, rapists, thieves who take elderly peoples life savings, fake doctors who prescribe deadly medicines. Like I said, the people who did it are scum, and they deserve to be punished, but don't make a blanket judgement on an entire populace.

[EZ_Ciba]

Marbh, would you oppose us turning the sunni triangle into dresden 2.0?

Marbh, you seem to be intentionally missing my point. Islamic cultures seem to cultivate violence. In western culture, for every person you have espousing violence, there are just as many, if not more, publicly decrying it. Where are the Islamic leaders denouncing this? This type of @#%$ is glorified on Al Jazeera. In these islamic cultures, there is a serious lack of opposition to these violent acts.

While I agree that we have had our share of animals in our country. It doesn't mean these people are any more human. Edited by: Ciba at: 4/2/04 11:26 am

[EZ_minoltasrt101b]

The fact that the most recent incidents of subhuman behavior on a mass scale happen to have involved Islamists hardly means only Islamists are capable of subhuman activities, or that they alone deserve to be treated differently for not according proper 'respect' to other cultures.

The most debased movement active today is, without a doubt, not Al-Qaeda or HAMAS or Baathists or any other Islamist movement. It's a Christian rebel group operating in Northern Uganda.

The Lord's Resistance Army is thought to be responsible for the kidnapping and enslavement of nearly 30,000 people - the vast majority children of all ages - since the mid 90s for use as soldiers and concubines, often both. They're also responsible for the ongoing genocide of the Acholi cultural group of Uganda/Sudan, not coincidentally the cultural group of most of the combatants. The reason? They're insufficiently supportive of the rebels. Oh, and they kill nuns and priests on sight, again for being insufficiently supportive.

If they're still too third world for you, there's also Aum Shinri Kyo, who, admittedly, have been much reduced in stature since the Tokyo subway sarin gas attack they orchestrated in 1995. They only killed 12 people in those attacks, but they had enough sarin to kill millions, as well as a Russian military helicopter investigators suspected they intended to use as a delivery platform. Even scarier, while speculation they were the first non-governmental group to detonate a nuclear device is just speculation, they were certainly working towards that goal, having recruited multiple ex-Soviet weapons scientists and a staggering number of physicists.

In Peru, Shining Path and Tupac Amaru are estimated to have killed over 30,000 since the early 80s. Shining Path, thought to have been all but eradicated in the early 90s, is staging a strong comeback, as evidenced by the resurgence in dismemberment by machete, their signature.

And if you suppose these are different because they were cheering corpses, and not merely producing them, I suggest you re-evaluate.

[EZ_Raith Fennin Ro]

It all sounds pretty bad to me.

[Marbh]

Ciba, you are again intentionally trying to tar me with slander and misrepresent my arguments. I didn't say I loved "these" people. I said they were terrible in what they did. But I also refuse to hate all Arabs because of what the Baathist and fundamentalist terrorist folks are doing. By your logic, should I hate the interim government? They're arabs. If it's Islam I'm supposed to hate should I take down the old Turkish lady who lives in my neighborhood? How about those Black Muslim dudes on campus? No. I prefer to hate people on a much more selct and small scale basis. I hate Al Qaeda, I hate Islamic Jihad, I hate Hezbollah. By the same token I hate the Basque Sepratists, KKK, Catholic and Protestat Paramilitaries, the innumerable left and right wing militias in subsaharan africa, the right and left wing rebels who butcher people in south america, the tamil tigers, the Kashmir terrorists, the Phillipine kidnappers, and many, many other groups of violent extremists. Considering how many millions, soon to be billions of islamic people in the world, the number who have ever done a crime based on their religion is extremely small. I for one am hoping that Islam goes into a reformast stage sometime in the future, much like our Protestant reformation, and emerges a less dogmatic religion, but only time will tell. Of course splintering into all those different factions didn't cure our problems either did it?

[EZ_Soulstealler]

kill em all let G.O.D, B.U.D.D.A.H, A.L.L.A.H, or whoever else you wish to pray to sort out who goes where.

War does not prove who was right, only who is left



and just for the flamers.. no im not racist, i hate everyone with equality. Edited by: Soulstealler at: 4/2/04 2:24 am

[EZ_Doofy Rainbowfloatar]

Everything that has gone on over there has gone on way before the U.S. was even a country.

And chances are it will still be going on after we are long gone.


I think the U.S. is doing the right thing in getting involved. Take a look at it this way.

The last time we said "it's not our problem", pearl harbor happened.

The United States is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Taking an active stance at least gives way to the possibility of resolving a problem dating back to biblical times.

will we solve it? probably not.

Will we prevent it from becomming the next world war? maybe.

if we let this conflict go unchecked, it will become another world war...I garuntee it.

-Doof

[Yalum]

This is just a lower tech version of what we did with the bodies of Saddam's sons.

They kill us, we kill them. Get used to it, we're going to be doing this for a while

[EZ_Ciba]

Yalum, we have taken great care to bury victims of our attacks. While we advertise that they were killed, we weren't so savage as to parade around with the bodies.

Quote:you are again intentionally trying to tar me with slander and misrepresent my arguments.

Marbh, I'm doing no such thing. I do not hate Arabs. I do not hate muslims. I DO believe that muslims have a tendancy towards violence that I don't understand. This obviously does not mean that all muslims are violent. This doesn't even mean most muslims are violent.

Hate is a little strong for what I feel. It is more a sense of wonder at why these fundamentalists have their violent tendancies.

[EZ_Filan Fyretracker]

Neutron bomb anyone? jk.

maybe we should just pull all americans out of Iraq and see if the country tears itself apart, i mean its clear those people dont want rebuilding and just want to lynch.

Earth Destroyed by Solarflare. Video at Eleven
Theres something on theWing....

[Biggwin]

Quote:. . . Uh, those were in the part where you said the penalty for one American murder should be the execution of ten foreigners.So boot, please enlighten me to exactly where I said 10 foreigners!!! There were NO racial undertones there period.

If they want us out of their country then fine withdraw. But damn skippy if they attack us then we attack back with a vengeance. Nothing to do with race, creed or any other BS you want to try and imply in my statement.

And btw "they" is for who ever in the heck attacks us! So in a way I guess I could be a racist. I cannot stand anyone that thinks terrorism is the way to get stuff solved! (so what is that Anti-terrorist racism?) I don't blame a race of people for what extremist groups do. But if an extremist group takes out innocent Americans then by god I don't care who gets hurt in the retribution, for one simple reason; If innocents on their side get killed then maybe they will think next time about who they are letting run their country. (and by that i mean speak for their country via terrorism)

And you can say what you want about retribution not working but we have the bigger guns and we are losing people now as we speak so we might as well make the punishment fit the crime!

I will put it this way. I dont think we should be over there in the first place but I stand behind our troops and wish them all a safe return!

[Darkefang]

Any tendency towards violence that Muslims have has been learned from the Europeans, starting with the Crusades. I don't have the desire to derail the thread, so I'll just leave it at the fact that Middle Eastern society was the most inclusive in the world, and the most peaceful, compared to the other advanced civilizations, before the crusades.

However, I don't think Muslims in general are any more prone to violence than any other religion. You have to look at the society that those committing violent acts are coming from. They are largely extremely repressive societies. Often, outsiders are presented as the enemy, to deflect attention to the inadequacies of their own government. The US is a popular target, since it is so visible. Different segments of Islam are often encouraged to conflict, again to deflect attention from the government's shortcomings.

Anyplace where people are poor, repressed, and convinced that their troubles are caused by their "enemies," then you have a recipe for violence similiar to what we have in Iraq.

[Biggwin]

Quote:maybe we should just pull all americans out of Iraq and see if the country tears itself apart, i mean its clear those people dont want rebuilding and just want to lynch./amen!!!

[Marbh]

Ciba, you made a statement, "sinc you love those people" which was a clear attempt to lump me as a sympathizer. It was cheap, and beneath you. If you dont see it, I'm sorry, but it was there.

The problem with retaliation, is that rarely are the actual people who did the deed punished, which means innocent people get killed, which fules the extremists arguments and recruitment. We need to investigate this fully, identify the participants via video and researched witness testimony, then have the Iraqi Council put them on trial. Fallujah is a powder keg, so we don't want to go in with a flamethrower.

[Meddik]

Isn't treating terrorist attacks like this as mere law enforcement issues through the 90s what led to 9/11 in the first place? WTC Bombing, Nothing. Somalia, Nothing. Cole, Nothing. 2 Embassies blown up, nothing.

Yeah, lets try doing nothing and see if that stops it.

[Caowyth]

Quote:The problem with retaliation, is that rarely are the actual people who did the deed punished, which means innocent people get killed, which fules the extremists arguments and recruitment.

The mere fact that we exist as a country, and support and promote values and freedom that is an anathema to their religious teachings and control fuels extremist arguments and recruitment.

Do you honestly believe that if we backed off, and only stayed in our own country that we wouldn't still be demonized by these people in order to solidify their control and incite their followers?

The only thing these religious extremists would be happy with would be if we all changed religions, and followed their dictates.

[EZ_Ciba]

Marbh: Insult removed (prior post). I understand how you read it that way, but I didn't intend for it to be read that way.

Quote:However, I don't think Muslims in general are any more prone to violence than any other religion.

Christianity doesn't set the expection that you'll get X number of virgins in paradise if you blow yourself up in a cafe or around a busload of children.

I agree that the violence is much more common in countries with oppressive governments. Western muslims are much more peaceful than their palestinian counterparts. Do you really deny that prospects of martyrdom contribute to violent actions?

[Wotan]

This thread is hilarious. Not the original event which is merely a sad reminder of the continuing loss of life in Iraq that shows no sign of abating.

Quote:I honestly don't know how you go about combatting ignorance and religious zealotism without trampling all over the rights we in this country cherish.
A good start would be to vote out a born-again president that spreads disinformation, and his Attorney-General with him.

Quote:These weren't US combatants; they were US contractors who were just there to repair the country.

They were soldiers-for-hire. More about Blackwater Mercenaries.

Quote: Islamic cultures seem to cultivate violence.

ROFL. Open your eyes. Look around you. Turn on the TV set (or don't). Read some (real) history of christianity. It blows my mind that people can convince themselves Iraqis are the aggressors in this conflict.

Quote:Yalum, we have taken great care to bury victims of our attacks. While we advertise that they were killed, we weren't so savage as to parade around with the bodies.

Actually we paraded Saddam's sons in the media for much the same purpose: to demoralize the enemy.


"Know your enemy, know yourself" - Sun Tzu

[Marbh]

Meddik and Caowyth, didn't say we should not do anything, but we need rule of law. You find the perp, you arrest the perp (if they go down fighting, their mistake). But we got people who seem to want to retaliate with indiscriminate carpet bombing or retaliate versus Fallujah as a whole. That will incite more people to violent action. We are dealing with a clan based society that takes blood debts very seriously, and they will react to percieved (correct or not) violence with more violence. If we are trying to turn them into a democracy, we need to follow the laws of a democracy in dealing with them. We need to root out corruption (which Bremer seems to be working on, seen a article about inspectors being sent), establish regular services, and project a sense of normality. A tit for tat loop isn't going to work.

[Nocte]

The world at large hates us regardless of what we do. Jealousy, spite, loathing of our patriotism and pride... whatever it is, people are going to hate us. We're self sufficient in a world of handouts, tyranny, and famine. That ticks people off, but hell we earned it the last 200+ years thank you very much.

If we backed out of Iraq and decided to keep to ourselves, the world would point and bitch at us sitting around swilling $3 coffees and eating donuts by the box while the rest of the impoverished world starved and suffered under 3rd world regimes.

/shrug

I got mine and I offered to share. You want to live in the bronze age, fine. All the power to ya. Even the LARPs go home to eat pizza once in awhile.

[Krimzan]

Quote:
Isn't treating terrorist attacks like this as mere law enforcement issues through the 90s what led to 9/11 in the first place? WTC Bombing, Nothing. Somalia, Nothing. Cole, Nothing. 2 Embassies blown up, nothing.

Yeah, lets try doing nothing and see if that stops it.

Ah, see if ONLY we would do nothing. Instead we install dictators (see: Saddam Hussain), train 'freedom fighters' (see: Osama Bin Laden), and keep opressive regimes in power (see: Sadui Arabia). We support governments which poesess WMD's in the area who are agressively instigating Islamic groups by giving them large amounts of money, vechicles, munitions and other weaponry which they then use against Arab civilians. We then support them in the UN by using our veto to strike down resolutions by the security council to condem their behavior. Most recently, 11 countries (out of 15 in the security council) supported a resolution, and we vetoed it. (see: Israel) We invade their countries (see: Afghanistan, Iraq as of late) kill thousands of their civilians (at current count 8,000 - 10,000) and continue to do so. We say we are spending $87 billion for reconstruction however Iraqui hospitals are still without basic needs for treating the people we shoot.

We don't do nothing. We instigate directly and indirectly. We detain anyone wearing a turbin at our boarders, we give Israel chemical weapons while at the same time telling Arab nations they can't have them. Our companies exploit their countries for oil, and the regemes we install abuse the people while at the same time living in luxery and catering to the needs of the USA. These people are born with @#%$, die with @#%$ and eat @#%$ every day. They look at the area around them and they say, "The world would be a better place for me without the United States."

Would their life actually be better without the US? No, probably not, but people are people, and people like having something to blame their problems on. Just like...oh, you guys. Clearly Islam is to blame for all the violence and terrorism in the world. That statement, which most people would probably agree with on some level, is more flawed than the statement by some random guy in the middle east who thinks that his life would be better without the US. It's hard to say, for sure, if it would, but there are many people who would still have their familes alive if it weren't for us, and all it takes is a few of those people, becuase they know a few more people who were family friends, who know a few more people, and pretty soon you have a lot of angry people screaming for revenge.

Was this behavior acceptable? No, most certainly not. It doesn't at all suprise me though, and while I will never say they are 'right' in any way, I can definatly see where they are coming from.

[EZ_Ciba]

I don't see how you folks can't distinguish between the violence involved in a war, violence targeting innocents and mutilating the dead. Maybe it's just me, but I see differences between the three.

Wotan, I'll be the first to agree that christians were savages during the crusades, spanish inquisition and other assorted historical events. The difference is, western culture has arguably grown more civilized over the last 8-10 centuries. I'm reading you as arguing "BUT BUT they're just as uncivilized as we were five centuries ago!!!!"

[EZ_joekreeper1]

Quote:we give Israel chemical weapons while at the same time telling Arab nations they can't have them. er maybe because Israel is our ALLY, and hasn't flown any planes into us, or blown up our embassies, or bombed the USS Cole, or taken hostages,ect. How weird we support our only ally and the only democracy in the region. This thread has made me physically ILL I have not seen so much America hating in a while, but I guess that's in vogue right now.

I'm also troubled at how LITTLE people know about the middle east and why things are the way they are yet spew orth ichor and bile as they were a learned person with some righteous indignations, while truly they are just parroting what the enemies of America have been saying for decades.

the only thing I can agree with the anti-America movement is that SOME Americans are niave, ignorant and easily duped. "I WANT TO FILL YOUR MOUTH WITH SPIDERS"

[Krimzan]

Quote:
I don't see how you folks can't distinguish between the violence involved in a war, violence targeting innocents and mutilating the dead.

That is because you are missing the point. You see dead civilians as unfortunate colateral damage. They see dead brothers and sisters and don't care. I'm also not sure why when we shoot, we're in a war, when they shoot, it's terrorism. We haven't been "at war" in Iraq for a while, and we still do things like open fire on crowds of protestors. We killed 19, they killed 5.

[Krimzan]

Joe, would you mind showing us some of your wisdom or just staying the hell out? You consistantly jump into these threads and go on about your excessive knowledge of the Middle East. Is it the case that the time you don't spend killing dogs or spending 'family time' watching Pulp Fiction you are a Rhodes Scholar on the history of the Middle Eastern region?

[shehab aldean]

i should use his line ....

[Marbh]

Ciba, wasn't five centuries ago my man, ask the Apache and the Sioux, the fillipinos, Cubans, Nicaraguans, Chinese ect, ect. And lets be honest, religiously speaking we got 600 or so years head start on Islam. I'm sure the Buddhists could laugh and point as the whole Judaism/Christian/Islam triangle and say "those one god people are crazy and violent".

[Caowyth]

Weren't the nations of that region hailed as culturally and educationally advanced back 2000 years ago?

Some religions interfere with cultural and educational advancement more than others. Christianity did it for a bit, and in some ways still acts as a drag on scientific advancement, but it got over it's period pretty quickly.

[Jhani Vandolay]

"[...]it's hard not to be a bigot. Is anyone else having this problem?"

I was going to say no, then I read the thread. Although it appears a fair number of people don't consider it a problem. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[Wotan]

Quote:I don't see how you folks can't distinguish between the violence involved in a war, violence targeting innocents and mutilating the dead. Maybe it's just me, but I see differences between the three.

That is a nonsensical statement. Assuming you are referring to the Blackwater contractors as "innocents" then they were the targets of violence involved in a war and mutilated after death. How should one distinguish?

Quote:Wotan, I'll be the first to agree that christians were savages during the crusades, spanish inquisition and other assorted historical events. The difference is, western culture has arguably grown more civilized over the last 8-10 centuries. I'm reading you as arguing "BUT BUT they're just as uncivilized as we were five centuries ago!!!!"

No. I am saying that our judeo-christian influenced American civilization is saturated in violence, celebrates violence, and exports violence around the world. We are the aggressors in this conflict, which could in all likelihood have been avoided with rational use of the nonviolent political tools at our disposal.

[Llabak Tharr]

Krimzan, please settle down. Joe, he has a point. Put up or shut up. Your "I know more about this than you but I'm not telling" one trick pony thing is getting old. If you've got something to say, say it. If the only thing you can contribute is "you are ignorant" then stop posting.

Let's see if we can manage to keep this thread somewhat civil, k?

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:I'm also not sure why when we shoot, we're in a war, when they shoot, it's terrorism.

Are you intentionally ignoring the mutilating of the bodies, krimzan? Killing these men would not have been such a heated issue if it were the initial strike alone. Have you even watched the video, or did you just show up to spew your hate of the united states in another thread?

To summarize for you:

1) Death is inevitable in war or otherwise, I accept that. Parading around dead bodies is not necessary. Confirming a death with pictures is not the same as stringing a body up to a bridge.

2) The religion is not solely responsible for these types of actions. The religion DOES provide a good basis for it.

3) Why not hold others to the same standard you expect from your own country? Maybe it's ridiculous to judge people based on the same standards, but at least I don't have to sacrafice ideals to convince myself some people aren't savages.

[freonsmurf]

If the treatment of dead bodies and the burial of them is so @#%$ important why the @#%$ hasn't bush attended one @#%$ funeral of a dead us soldier?


Religion has been used as an excuse to murder since the beginging of time. But your christian and they are muslim, so they are the savages and you are the savior? Get off your damn cross Ciba.

Maybe if Bush had some @#%$ standards we wouldnt be in this mess in the first place.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:That is a nonsensical statement

Pull your head out and read the thread. This statement makes sense in the context of other statements. As the discussion evolved, we were not discussing only the Fallujah murders.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:But your christian and they are muslim, so they are the savages and you are the savior? Get off your damn cross Ciba.

Watch it, wix. If this were true, I'd be calling for the firebombing of Fallujah.

Quote:If the treatment of dead bodies and the burial of them is so @#%$ important why the @#%$ hasn't bush attended one @#%$ funeral of a dead us soldier?

Not the same. Now, come back and argue about bush when he starts pissing on graves in Arlington.

Quote:Maybe if Bush had some @#%$ standards we wouldnt be in this mess in the first place.

If Bush I had some stones, or if your lord and savior (clinton) had some stones, we wouldn't be in this mess. Did I want us to go to Iraq? @#%$ no. Was it necessary? Hell yes.

edit: helped filter. Edited by: Ciba at: 4/2/04 2:48 pm

[EZ_Ciba]

Wix, If we're not that different, are you saying it'd be acceptable for amercians to string up burned bodies to bridges?

I honestly can't tell whether you're conding the actions in Fallujah as acceptable, or if you're just entering this pissing contest because you feel the need to contradict anything I post.

[EZ_Peebs]

Quote:Joe, would you mind showing us some of your wisdom or just staying the hell out? You consistantly jump into these threads and go on about your excessive knowledge of the Middle East. Is it the case that the time you don't spend killing dogs or spending 'family time' watching Pulp Fiction you are a Rhodes Scholar on the history of the Middle Eastern region?

Geezus Krimzan, why don't you sit in a corner and fume for a bit before posting? I don't care if you agree with him or not, but you've been consistently acting like a complete and total @#%$ in every political thread on this board, even when I agree with you. Lines like the last one there just make you look bad and cause people like me to disregard any actual points you might have (no, not that my opinion matters much). Edited by: Peebs at: 4/2/04 2:21 pm

[Llabak Tharr]

Quote:Watch it, @#%$. If this were true, I'd be calling for the firebombing of Fallujah.


Either you're calling him the son of god, or a naughty word edited by the filter. I suspect it's not the former, so Ciba that is a warning for you for personal attacks. If you'd really like to sit out of these threads for a week, keep it up.

This thread is on its way to being locked.

[Caowyth]

Can we get a list of who has been officially warned in this thread, or is it just Ciba?

And you should just lock the thread. There's very little chance of any rational discourse between most of the participants, which means it's only going to go downhill from here.