So the local highschool is installing astroturf.

[freonsmurf]

Disgusting.
8 schools in the area already have these fields installed at the cost of $350,000-$750,000 dollars. Yet the Denver school district is facing budget cuts of $30 million dollars. Preschool and other services are being cut. The public libaries have been forced to close one day a week.
Where are our priorities as a society?

It's only wrong if you get caught.If consequences dictate my course of action I should play GOD

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Hell

[DarthEnderX]

Building movie theatres that will do nothing but play LotR, Matrix and Star Wars trilogies non-stop I hope!

[Glip the Gnome]

My old highschool couldnt afford school busses or the cost of printing a paper once a month but they were somehow able to scrape up the cash for a 2nd football stadium (which was like the 4th field they had).

Frustrating, isnt it?

[Nimmbull]

Extremely.

[EZ_Rune the Borrower]

I work in the "Green Industry" in the Denver area Freon. I've even been a Superentendant of Grounds at a local private school.

With the water restrictions in place it's impossible to keep real grass alive. Especially grass that sees as much hard use as some athletic fields.

The restrictions are absolutely stupid. I know how to water grass.

A friend of mine was having trouble keeping his lawn green before the drought. He was attempting to keep to the then voluntary "every 3rd day" watering cycle.

I changed his watering program to 5 days a week BUT his overall watering time was cut by a third. That's right 33% LESS water and a couple weeks later he called me estatic about how green his lawn was.

The problem with the current watering restrictions is that the people that make the rules don't understand what they're doing. They simply assume that fewer watering days is the answer.

It's NOT.

For Pete's sake, if you MUST regulate something, please understand how it works. Runehammer Trollsbane
Assassin of Cazic-Thule

The Oldest Rogue on Cazic-Thule

"I yam what I yam."
Popeye

[Nenjin]

Few years ago when I was still in highschool, the school recieved a sizeable portion of funds. This was in a time when they knew there was a small budget crisis coming in the next year. So they built a new gynmasium wing, with 3 basketball courts, a wrestling room, a brand new weight room full of cutting edge equipment, and new locker rooms.

Next year, they announced that due to lack of funding, the art department would be cut by 85% percent. That meant drama, painting, drawing, pottery(yeah, I know), most of photography English teachers lost funding, some were let go. They consolidated the language departments, eliminated positions. Social studies lost every teacher that didnt't have 6 years under their belt. About the only redeeming act towards academia was 2 new science labs. They atheletic department lost some PE classes like racket ball, and 2 weight lifting classes, because they new room allowed for 2x the class size.

Gotta love the midwest. We don't miss larn'in long as we kin play with the ball gud. "They will come back, come back again, as long as the Red Earth rolls. He never wasted a tree or a leaf, why should he squander souls?"

[freonsmurf]

Even with the drought somehow the mosquitos find enough water to make Colorado the West Nile Capital of the US.

Oh the humanity!

[Cantatus]

Yeah, it's pretty rediculous.

The school district my sisters go to has horrible budget problems. They passed something called the "Robin Hood Project" where the better off schools have to give money to the poorer ones (or something along those lines) which didn't help. The high school my sister attends cut a bunch of their extracurricular activities. Juniors are required to take one off period and Seniors to take two. They can't afford new books and are constantly looking for new ways to raise funds for the school.

Yet, in the middle of this, they were able to construct a large stadium (right across the street from my nieghborhood... seperate rant) for the football teams in the district. Heaven forbid the fact that the football teams had to have their football games on the school's football fields.

Is it any wonder Texas ranks 49th out of the states in education?
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[EZ_Dihce]

and isn't Astroturf on it's way OUT on most NFL stadiums? aside from the domes of course....
but isn't it alot harder and thus easier to injur the students? Nothing like ruining your career before it can start because your highshcool is retarded ~D

[DarthEnderX]

Look on the bright side...

[EZ_joekreeper1]

Like public school kids can ever SPELL astroturf?

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Here is why they can afford to put in astroturf and still have a budget crunch:

Schools get money through two means, Bonds and Levys;

Money from voter-approved Bonds go to Building repairs and construction, money from voter approved Levys go to learning (teacher salary, art programs etc).

Bonds and Levys are voter-approved for a certain amount of money and are only used for what they are voted for.

So the school district can have alot of money from a Bond to build and repair new stuff on the school, but that money can only go for construction and repair.

If the money from a Levy runs low, they have to cut programs that it pays for, they cant take money from the Bond the voters approved because well, that would be againts the law and misleading to residents, get it?

Just remeber which is which when it comes time to renew, and btw, voting yes on a school levy does not raise taxes, think of it as a magazine subscription you would like to renew.

[EZ_GrevXero]

Looks like alot of schools do that.
High school I attended acouple of years ago spent 3million to build a new Football field on our school property(knocked down bungalo's and took out student parking) for our home team. Traffic was a mess after that. I feel sorry for the schools neighbors with no parking during the day.

Our home team has a sweet stadium that we played at since in the 40's.....1 block away from our school.....

All I gotta say is that most people hated our school council.
Nice learning computer training and graphics on apple II's though in 2001! Using old text books with graffiti and gangs from the 70's tagged on them. Lovely! Retired Conjuror of MT

[EZ_Bondori Zafiro]

Blame the voters who vote no on school a school Levy.

[Dorla]

I could go on a giant tirade about this.... all I have to say is, support your local school's art programs. Attend concerts, check out art showings, etc. Help them out, because they are the first programs to be cut when a school is in a monetary bind. (although you can be sure the football team will get new uniforms.....)

[Koru]

Hm, you know, I don't think the schools in my country even have sports teams. Maybe the occasional soccer club that doesn't even matter since everyone interested in the sport in the local league teams anyway.

Computers here used to bite. I had computer classes on the Apple II's in '98. Now though, internet access and computer rooms everywhere it seems. Half the uni classes seem to require that you have a high end laptop (which I hate). Colleges and highschools are kind of sick though. The small ones out in the country have been buying laptops to loan to their students. I am insanely jealous they get so much better education and equipment than I did at their age. So much money has been spent to get the school's computers up to speed it's kind of scary. I think the goal they have is that there should be at least one computer per 10 students.

[Nocte]

This @#%$ happens because career politicians perpetuate the cycle.

For the love of God VOTE! I swear I am the youngest person I ever see whan going to the polls. They all look at me like I'm some kind of alien or something. They say there is a big movement in youth participating in the Democratic process- I don't see it.

Lying down in the middle of the street and getting arrested is not participating in the Democratic process. Learning about your local politicians and government is! Don't vote for the shiny new smiling asshat that party A, B, C places in front of you, look at them all and make a heartfelt decision.

The guy running in your city/town/burrough/district has more immediate impact on your day to day life than the Teddy Ks and Strom Ts up on Capitol Hill, yet most people can't name who represents them. Straight ticket options should be banxxored from ballots.
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[Kaielen]

Our school district just built a brand new highschool because the old one was too small.

Estimates projected when the new highschool will be overcrowded?

5 years.

Due to budget cuts the special ed. programs were cut from the public schools, and the arts suffered pretty bad too. I vote every time, but the ballot is always a question of, "Hmm...which one of these guys will screw us the least?"

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

You're in Boulder, Wix. What does the Denver school district have to do with Boulder county schools?

Besides, kids nowadays are overweight anyways. If installing astroturf meant that they'll get these kids' asses moving, losing weight and being more healthy, I think it's worth it.

[Kaielen]

Think how much they'll save on the price of a groundskeeper, and how much money the local medical facilities will make from all the skin grafts after the kids flay the flesh off of their legs and backs.

[EZ_joekreeper1]

Public schools can't produce scholars, artist, or musicians.. so hell let them at least produce mindless athletes.

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

What good is a scholar who dies of a heartattack at 30 because he's got a belly bigger than the doorway to his library?

[EZ_joekreeper1]

yeah a Scholar wouldn't be educated enough to keep physically fit right?

build a strong mind and a strong body should follow

build only a strong body and you made a nice mule

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

I know many PhD wielding folks with huge guts and out of shape. Your point?

Btw, they went to public school too. Public grade school, public jr high school, public high school, public colleges...

Scholars being smart enough to be healthy is an assumed stereotype, just like gamers being either fat and lazy with nothing but a tub of Doritos and cheeze in their laps, or skinny zit faced losers who can't score dates. Is that always the case? Are you saying that by coming here and expressing your interest in gaming that you fall into one of those categories? So which are you?

Having a healthy and active lifestyle is something that's encouraged, and developed early on so people actually enjoy it throughout their lives. I'm willing to bet that if you never did a damn thing other than go to school, come home and play on your Nintendo all through childhood, that you probably wouldn't be so inclined to be physically fit as an adult. Scholar or not. Edited by: Nyssa Rainwhisper at: 9/9/03 7:57 am

[EZ_joekreeper1]

FYI there was NO nintendo when I was in school Atari 2600 was a luxury most kids didn't have.

we actually had to WALK to the arcade to play games.. 20 miles in the snow, uphill ...both ways!

and in highschool I was a D&D - punker - arcade vidiot- computer geek (TRS80 style REPRESENT)that used to beat up the Jocks from public schools cause they always fell for "HEY LOOK BEHIND YOU".

The 14 years of Martial Arts I took AFTER SCHOOL hours and the 4 years in the USMC I was in AFTER GRADUATION, kept me in pretty good shape.

School public or otherwise had nothing to do with myself or any of my friends being in good physical shape at all.

[freonsmurf]

8 stadiums in 4 different counties. See Nys, this is what we call a trend. Notice the other replies as well. Large amounts of money are being spent on football stadiums while other programs are being cut and loosing money. It has nothing to do with boulder but everything to do with the @#%$ Education system. Propetry taxes that create severe imbalances, money being spent on sports instead of academics. Security dectectors and armed guards being hired instead of increasing teachers pay and hiring more of them.

Your attack on fat school kids is to bizarre for me to address in this thread.

[Nimmbull]

If you want to cut down on fat kids you don't build friggin sports complexes. You don't serve pizza as a choice every day. You don't have fries with every meal. I'm talking about elementary schools here- if you only knew.....

I'll give you a little glimpse- a relatively "new" way for schools to generate income is to serve more food that kids like rather than anything nutritious (serve more stuff they eat and they buy more, of course). The problem is that elementary kids (and kids in general) will NEVER choose the healthy alternative when given a choice. So schools are making loads more money by selling fattie foods instead of nutritious foods. The kicker is that since it's making more money a lot of the nutrition laws get worked around- for example did you know that ketchup now counts as a kid's daily dose of vegetables?

I could go on and on but the fact remains- America is getting fatter because of the habits it's creating in it's elementary schools. And there's too much money flowing in to stop it.

Nimm

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

football programs dont keep kids in shape, exercise and a healthy diet do. football programs provice a small source of revenue (in the form of alumni donations) and more importantly, fuel the delusional "help i have to recapture my lost youth" impulses of sad middle aged men.

the answer to the athletics issue that all schools face is to keep athletics utterly seperate from the insitution. really, being on a football team shouldnt mean anything different than having any other extracurricular hobby.

but on a totaly different subject - smoeone was discussing watering their lawn 5 times a week. it should be noted that this kind of thing can be dramatically reduced by one simple fix.

changing the setting on your lawnmower to about 2-3 inches higher than its curent setting will save well ovr 50% of the current water youre using. Theres no reason lawns have to be 1-2 inches like golf courses... a good 4 inch lawn is healther, uses way less water, and looks a helluva lot better anyway.

watering lawns is the single most wasteful thing a person can ever do with water. Veda Kai'Rin

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

So are you saying that you're a contradiction to the stereotype the, Joe? Did I just prove a point?

Wix, sure, 4 stadiums may be excessive, but you still failed to mention how Denver's school budget affects Boulder's. Also, just how did I attack fat children? The fact is, children nowadays ARE overweight. Do you deny that? Can you disprove that? I also said that anything to get them to be healthier is a good thing. So tell me, just how did I attack overweight children?

Actually, I think sports programs do help kids be healthier. It did for me at least. I can attest that back when I was on the volleyball and tennis teams back in high school, I was in the best shape of my life. It forced me to do something good for my body that I otherwise wouldn't have had I just gone home and veg out in front of the TV. After that all ended with high school, that's when the weight started to gain for me. Then, you'd be lucky if you could get my lazy ass to walk to the car for a 7-Eleven nachos run. After a while, I got back into the swing of things and hit the gym to shed the excess. I thank my active lifestyle as a kid to keep me interested in sports and other activities other than vegging out in front of my comp playing EQ. Of course, a healthy diet helps too. Edited by: Nyssa Rainwhisper at: 9/9/03 9:25 am

[Meddik]

America is getting fatter because of the habits it's creating in it's elementary schools.

Personal Responsiblity ring a bell?

Of course not, not these days.

Parents can pack a lunch if they don't like the choices available to their kid. Hell, that's what I had all through school, 9/10 of the time.

And trust me, people CAN change their habits. Just because you have eaten unhealthy before, when you were young does not make it inevitable you will be unable to control your own impulses to drink gravy with a ***** when you grow up.

Lets see. Kids have what, 180 days of school a year. Lets say they eat choose that unhealthy food every single day at school for lunch.

But that's only 180 meals in a year. 365 days x 3 meals = 1095 meals a year.

What about the other 915 meals they eat each year? Those couldn't possibly contribute to weight gain, could they?

[Kaielen]

I was never into sports either as a kid. I always studied ahead of what was required and spent most of my time reading or gaming. I also started training in martial arts the moment I was old enough to start school, so I was never overweight or out of shape. However, I was also tested in the top percentile locally and statewide, and I don't give much credit for that to the public school system. Our books were always battered and old, but the footballs and sports equipment always had a showroom shine on them. The system is truly @#%$.

[freonsmurf]

It has no effect they are seperate. However both spend huge amounts of money on something as frivilous as a football stadium. Boulder has the luxury of $60K avg income so property taxes fund this @#%$ in neverland. Denver does not, as do alot of other schools who do this. Just because a school can afford to spend money on a stadium doesn't mean they should.

As for school kids I work one block from a high school, most of the kids I see arent huge sumos in training. highschool kids have enough problems fat or not, some military exercise program is not going to make it better. There are plenty of other activites that can bring pleasure besides becoming a jock. Mental health is more important than physcal health to a certain degree. You could also be dead at 30 from a drunk driver or some other random occuerence.

[Meddik]

So we should stop spending money on staduims and spend it on DUI enforcement?

What?

I think I missed a step somewhere.

[freonsmurf]

Was addressing the dead at 30 from a heart attack because of being a fat school kid vs dead at 30 from any number of causes.

[Koru]

Uh, yeah. Sure. Look, I'm not gonna talk for other people, I know I'm somewhat different from most of the people around me. However there was nothing sports related at my schools that ever made me want to look after my health.

My idea of fun is not to run around in frigging circles and have the stupid jock @#%$ who thinks his size gives him the right to bully people try to trip me. Bigger stadiums or more money would not have helped. Not herding me in with 40 other kids and seeing if some jungle senses don't magically kick in in team sports might have helped. Incidentally if anyone was wondering yes, some jungle senses do magically kick in. For one thing I learned to Rincewind (run away very fast and dodge) it.

I'm just now, 12 years later, starting to overcome my 'burn' instinct at any health related stuff. I'm not doing it because it's good for me, I'm trying because I do enjoy it in the right way that I like and because I have sustained some injuries that do require physical therapy so they don't lapse. Which is radically different from the moomoo method school tried to force on me. In the end I learned nothing, zero, nada, zilch, null from those health and sports classes.

The things these people could have done to get me more interested in sports would not have been bigger statiums, or new costumes, or more team sports or more expensive gyms. I would have needed something much much more expensive because it would have required more manpower, not more item junk - namely something more personal with less emphasis on mob mentality and involving things that actually interest me. Even now my interest in soccer, basketball and handball is somewhere up there with my love of MMOG pointless downtime, PoR2, drinking broken glass and being repeatedly stabbed by poisonous bees singing the Barney song. Trust me, forcing someone to do sports does not work to make for healthy living. My sister knows one of my old PE teachers and I try very hard to be diplomatic and not say "Shut the @#%$ up @#%$, I'm not doing this because of anything you did. If anything I'm doing this for myself despite your oh so wonderful mentoring you bitch."

...like I said, I know I'm not your average person but damn, that forced PE managed to put me so off of fitness it took a bad injury and many many painkillers before I even considered giving it another try.

[EZ_Sawin]

Why do schools even have sports programs? I have never understood this, you go to school to @#%$ learn, not throw a ball at some sweaty jock. If you want to play sports, fine, but school should not be the place to go for it.

If schools are running low on money (Mine for instance paid $1 million to have the school renovated(Rant inside a rant: School Renovations while kids are at the damn school == teh suck, its kinda @#%$' hard to hear the teacher when the sounds of power drills, hammers, and saws completely drown the teacher out) and now has barely enough money to run the the school. Some, neigh, most classes have 35~ kids in them and some dont even have the desks to fit them all in the room, a few even have 40 kids okay back on topic) STOP HAVING @#%$ SPORTS! If they cut out sports, which would be the most beneficial way to go, they would save hella money and be able to have enough teachers to teach the damn class w/o having 35 kids to a room.

I am just dumbfounded on how people would cut art/other classes and such over @#%$ sports teams. Venerable Toprem Level 62 Druid.... yeah im too lazy to make another Ezboard account

Take a look at my stuff.

HA! HA! I am using the internet!!!1

[EZ_DreaDie]

A fat school kid? Are you @#%$ kidding? Most kids these days need to GAIN more weight and be less concious of their body. Sorry, you must have gone to school a LONG time ago, but most kids these days are far too skinny and worry about their bodies far too much. It's when they leave school and stop carrying about how they look infront of people is when they gain weight, not during school.

Yes, a certain few are overweight. But overall, most high school kids are definately too skinny and far too physically concious. Edgie Newbee, Deciever, Tarew marr server
Ska Sucks!
Ska revival isn't cool, you stupid f***s!
The bands are only in it for the bucks!
And if you don't believe me you're a schmuck!
But the trend will die out with any luck!

[Jhani Vandolay]

Um.. high school football keeping people in shape? Allow me to . Please, tell me that was in jest. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[EZ_joekreeper1]

no Nyssa no point proved

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

Dreadie,

you are wrong, Im sorry to say. Obesity rates in US children have risen from somewhere around 5-10% to somewhere around 30-50% during the last 20 years.

Not just kids... people are fat, in general. Veda Kai'Rin

[EZ_xoom]

My public high school bought a $450,000 Jumbo Tron. Yes, a Jumbo Tron.

Not sure on price though, it may be more.

[EZ_ColvinCozener]

Back to the original topic for a second, is it possible that astroturf will save money in the long run over the grass field?
I believe this is why astroturf got popular in the 70s.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I don't have any numbers to go either way here, but I'm thinking this is true; and if you have to spend $350,000 to save $500,000 over the next 5 years(just making up numbers) then its worth it.

[Caowyth]

Football in highschool, much like college, is one of the extra curricular activites that pays for itself, and more than likely also pays for a majority of other extra-curricular activities, like band and art (Which usually pay for nothing). Tickets, concessions, and alumni donations (As have been mentioned) are usually greater than any money that a school gets from the state for additional activities.

I love how people get so upset over a sports program getting "all the money" when in reality that sports program is probably making all sorts of other programs possible.

Cao

*edit*

This is based off my own experience, other schools may vary. Edited by: Caowyth at: 9/9/03 1:13 pm

[Nenjin]

Hey Cao, last time I checked, Art Classes weren't extra-cirricular, at least not Photography, Painting, Drawing, AP Drawing, Pottery, Sculpture. They were all regular credit classes at my school. Sports however, is extra cirricular. Teachers wouldn't let students get credit on assignments they weren't present for, sporting events inside and outside the state. They had to get the work done ahead of time. They couldn't use their athletics as an excuse for much, yet at my school, extra cirricular activities super-ceeded the ones that weren't extra cirricular. Something there strikes me as wrong. And if a school is depending on the fees/donations from sports to run their basic core cirriculum, there is something MAJORLY wrong, or you are going to Notre Dame public school.

[Caowyth]

Not all art is core curriculum. We had stuff like 'Pottery Club'.

Seriously.

We had the drawing classes, but Photography, Painting, Pottery/Sculpture, etc were not part of the basic curriculum.

Even today these are the art classes offered:

Drawing
AP Drawing
3D Design

Looks like they've cut down on clubs, they don't even have Pottery Club anymore. Guess football isn't doing so hot. =)

[Nimmbull]

Addressing a couple things...

Personal Responsiblity ring a bell?

Of course not, not these days.

Parents can pack a lunch if they don't like the choices available to their kid. Hell, that's what I had all through school, 9/10 of the time.

You're absolutely right. It does boil down mostly to the entire American attitude of what is easier is better. Most parents don't pack lunches because that would be actual work . Plus that would mean that they would actually be invested in helping their child to develop good healthy eating habits. That happens very rarely. But it's the schools that perpetuate and enable that attitude.

Lets see. Kids have what, 180 days of school a year. Lets say they eat choose that unhealthy food every single day at school for lunch.

But that's only 180 meals in a year. 365 days x 3 meals = 1095 meals a year.

What about the other 915 meals they eat each year? Those couldn't possibly contribute to weight gain, could they?

Quite a rosy view you have there. The facts are that many kids don't get breakfast and that MANY kids (especially in rural parts of where we live Meddik) get one meal a day- at school. Also- when kids are approved for free/reduced lunch they eat breakfast at school, not at home (where they'd have to pay). And guess what they serve for breakfast? The same crap they served at lunch, this time a day later. Kid that get free lunch don't have the option of getting a lunch packed for them (how many destitute people are going to choose to pack a healthy lunch vs. the free lunch provided by the state?)

Add into that how many kids also eat dinner at daycare these days... I think you'd be surprised to look at your own state Meddik and find the facts. I'll let you look up for yourself how many kids are on free/reduced lunch in North Carolina...

What it does boil down to is a culture of too much choice for children. The idea that kids are little adults is dangerous- parents give their kids too many choices over things they shouldn't have a choice on (like what they eat, most the time). And it's reinforced at schools. Schools should be better than that- they should be trying to go the other way but aren't.

Nimm

[Nenjin]

That's because they privatized alot of the food grade schools provide to kids. I recall a big fallout with the quality of food provided to kids a few years back, studies showing that out of the range of food offered, kids avoided healthy eating, what little was provided(fiestadas, pepperoni pizza, hotdog day, hamburger day, to name the bulk of the lunch themes). The state was losing money on it, it was named as poor quality food, I think one school principle was skimming money out of the food program.

So they let it become more privatized, and natually, what sells best is what will be offered. Now move that up to highschool, where kids are really supposed to think for themselves. Pop machines, candy vendors, potato chip machines, pizza everyday if you want it, burgers every day you want it, and of course, the ever famous A/B Lunches, which is the exact same stuff kids in grade school are eating.

But you can only tell kids about the 4 basic food groups, the health pyramid and obesity for so long. Forcing people to eat a certain thing just because they are at school seems wrong to me, but I was the type of student that hated those special little laws and rules because I happened to be at school. I'm all for taking junk out of the grade school level, pizza does NOT need to be offered as an option for those kids, but it would probably not be cost effective to do what my university does, a 30 person kitchen staff that makes 9 different dishes everyday by hand, with some preprepared items included. Not for public schools.

[Biral]

Buying @#%$ like a jumbotron for the football team is ridiculous, but i'd like to ask, how many of you ever played football in high school? I would wager not many judging by how many responses said they didn't like sports. Being on a team is one of the most exciting things for a kid to do. Working as a team to achieve a common goal is a skill not only useful in sports, but in life. You all do this at work every day. You may not realize it from the outside, but being on a football team or any other athletic team is a great experience for a kid, especially someone who hasn't had access to stuff like astroturf and jumbotrons (i.e. inner city and ghetto kids).

Yeah overspending on sports when the classroom is suffering is dumb, but don't rip the programs. By doing so your just pushing more stereotypes. Now, if you'll excuse me, i'm dead tired from 2 1/2 hour football practice Biral Infectionn
Fennin Ro
Half Elf swashbucklin' Deceiver

[EZ_nekoken]

I took 2.5 years of art in high school. Let me tell you that it *should* be the first thing cut. High school art classes are worthless. I'm speaking as someone with a bachelor's degree in visual arts.

Narsse Nekoken

[Greldek]

If it wasn't for art classes in Highschool, I would have dropped out my Sr year. ~

[EZ_Hindraak]

It's all about the jocks in HS, and @#%$ the kids with a future. I'm not suprised in the least about the district wasting money.
Edit: Biral, Inner city and Ghetto kids aren't getting the Jumbotron and Astroturf still, because their schools are poor, and don't have more creative classes to cut to get additional stadium funding. Wealthier schools get the better things, being of no benefit to the inner city-ers. Immortal 'til the day I dieEdited by: Hindraak at: 9/9/03 7:39 pm

[Nenjin]

Yeah, I hated having art teachers tell me how to draw better Nekkoken, or encouraging to express myself, or introduce me to a new style, or give me time to do something I enjoyed doing. It was such crap.

[Kaielen]

My g/f is a graphics art major and her high school art teacher (the same teacher I thought was a useless bitch) was very encouraging and even entered her into several county and state art contests. She won quite a few and still has a good rapport with her art teacher. I still hate the bitch, but I was never very gifted in anything to do with art. I was, however, the English teacher and History teacher's pet. It's all in what the kids want. I'd wager that 99% of school districts has a majority saying to spend the least on sports and put more money to core curriculum.

[Meddik]

Am I the only one thinking that getting rid of most sports AND most art classes would be a good thing?

[Gnmish Gearbinder]

The Arts always lose out to Sports in highschool.

The Highschool I went to got a new stadium built and they got new jerzees and equipment every year.

I was in Drama and took every Drawing class in Art. Never had materials for stagecraft that weren't donated by the teacher/parents. Frequently didn't have the paper or materials needed for Drawing. Our drama department was fantastic as far as the student actors and the parent/teacher involvement but we were never budgeted a dime by the school. If we had the money, we could have easily done twice as many performances a year. We always made more back in ticket sales than we used...but it's just not a priority.

I also did Journalism/Yearbook. The school paper all came out of the teacher's pocket. The yearbook was of course mainly subsidized by the school however the many late hours that my teacher and we put in (sometimes till midnight), the cost of film, developement, plotting, etc. Once again came out of the pockets of the Journalism staff/parents.

Blows...and to top it off, we never saw any money back to ourselves for the Yearbooks. The school would pocket that...and use it for the stadium! Yay highschool sports!

EDIT: Almost forgot that we could never go to District Competitions because the school wouldn't budget the money into our 'School Application Fee' which had to be processed by the Principal. Also wouldn't let us use the busses for transportation. Couldn't get the 200 miles to districts anyway so we couldn't compete even if the fee was paid. Couldn't compete, so couldn't get Art scholarships to College. Blah...pissed off. Don't want to type anymore. I had mostly forgotten all this stuff. It's been 8 years. gnmish.gearbinder.ring.warden.sullon.zek
What's the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants if nobody ever asks to see 'em?Edited by: Gnmish Gearbinder at: 9/10/03 6:03 am

[Kaielen]

Damn, Gnmish...that pissed me off, and I didn't even go to your school. Lol.

[EZ_Tameran]

If football is anything like it is where I live then the program should be putting money back into the school system. As for my team, we go out and raise money for new equipment and uniforms, while supporting many other sports with the thousands of dollars we make every Friday.

[Kaielen]

Most high school football teams suck so bad they should be paying the community for tarnishing their image.

[EZ_Peebs]

Why do schools even have sports programs? I have never understood this, you go to school to @#%$ learn, not throw a ball at some sweaty jock. If you want to play sports, fine, but school should not be the place to go for it.

What a load of @#%$.

I could say the same damn thing for art and music programs.

[Nenjin]

Sorry, athletics may be greek and all, but trying to say it has anywhere as much EDUCATIONAL value as art or any other cirriculum is simply burying your head in the sand. I don't say sports need to go, but it is a crock of @#%$ to think sports _need_ to be there as much as other classes. Yeah, that means art.

I'm no jock, but I've played sports, and I understand the value it has to people, emotional, socially, ect... But if it's the most important thing in your day when you get to Highschool, you need to make room for someone else who is going to use the system like it was intended to. You can show up after everyone else is done learning at the end of the day.

My last point? Are there many famous atheletes prior to the 20th century that many people remember? No, it's the artists, teachers, philosophers, and people doing other things besides athletics that leaves a lasting, worthful impression with people.

[Glip the Gnome]

Biral -- I played football in school for a few years and we always had what we needed. I also took some art classes and worked on the school paper and we NEVER had everything we needed.

Football was fun and all, but even most of the guys on the team understood that *for the school* it shouldnt be as important as the learning aspect.

Of course, our team sucked. Maybe its different for teams that actually win games :P
/rude dumb coach

[EZ_Peebs]

Sorry Nenjin but I'm not 'burying my head in the sand' by having different priorities than you.

Who are you to decide that art 'needs' to be there more than sports? Somebody who happens to like art more than sports, that's who. Hell, I thought it was stupid that I actually had to take an art class and get GRADED in it when I have no artistic ability whatsoever. It was a complete waste of time sitting in that class, I just can't draw or paint to save myself. I was in just about every choral and drama class/activity though. Does that make me think that choral/band classes are more important than art classes? No, not at all. People who hated to sing and had no sense of pitch were forced to take at least one chorus class, which I also thought was pretty stupid.

And no, I was never involved in any High School sports either, but I'm not about to say that they were pointless just because I wasn't involved in them. Maybe you didn't read the quote I was responding to, but to say that sports have no place in a school's program is no different than saying art or music has no place (you could always draw at home).

As for your last point.... what exactly is your point? Maybe if we lived prior to the 20th century you'd have a point, but it really has no relevance to the way school is structured today. I can think of plenty of famous athletes from the past 100 years. Sure they may not have changed the world, but how many people who DID change the world participated in high school or collegiate sports? I'd wager quite a few.

Too often people buy into the whole 'dumb jock' stereotype when it's the same as all the other stereotypes.

Now getting back to the rest of the discussion, I don't think it's right that sports programs should get loads of money while other programs get cut. Still, in my opinion, saying that sports should be cut instead is just as bad. A lot of times it isn't nearly as cut and dry as 'new stadium or art class...... new stadium it is!' either. If a booster gives the school money for sports, that's how they have to spend it and I'm not going to fault them for doing it. If the school misappropriates money and shafts the other programs, that is definately a problem.

[Nenjin]

I make the distinction between academics and athletics, period, when talking about school, that's why I 'decide' arts need to be there more than sports, and I that's where you and I differ.


As for my last point, it is as exactly as it reads. When I think of the impact artists(drama, painting, ect..) has had on society as compared to sports, I put the arts above sports. Athletics has a classical tradition that people have clung to, and that's great, pride in prowess, but I think people have completely @#%$ up their priorities by putting more value in prowess than education. No one is going to say outloud "Atheltics are worth more than {stuff}", but when it comes time to give money, to assign money, to spend money, it goes to sports, because people put more stock in the pride of a football team, the picture of the QB in the local newspaper, then they do in the education of people they don't know.

Intramural classes are stupid, I'll give you that. No one should be told they have to draw, or sing, or shoot baskets if they don't really want to. I did read the quote you responded to, which IMO was stupid, but I don't believe it can be turned around completely to say with confidence that Arts have just as little or just as much right to be there. You're right, I do put more value in just about everything else in school than athletics because I enjoy art more, I didn't say athletics didn't belong in school, but I think it needs to be knocked back about 4 notches in the scale of how important it really is when you are talking about education. Edited by: Nenjin Darkeyes at: 9/10/03 12:02 pm

[EZ_Hindraak]

I never played sports in HS and the closest to art classes was comp science. Sports teams should have less money because since they have more money, get treated better by the community, they think they are better than the kids who can do simple math without a calculator. They get taught that they are better than the rules and grades because they are a mediocre QB on a mediocre football team. @#%$ HS sports, and make the jocks go to the YMCA or similiar to play. Ya know, something that doesn't take away from the rest of the school so 3% can get the idea that they only need to know how to grope the guys in other colors to get through life "ahead" of the pack. Edited by: Hindraak at: 9/12/03 7:00 pm

[EZ_Peebs]

At least you don't stereotype athletes.

[Glip the Gnome]

There were definitely some meatheads on my sports teams, but by and large most of the guys were competant at least. With a few of them being really smart -- just the same as a random group of people from anywhere else.

[EZ_pulid]

Our school implemented a pay to play policy. You have $120 bucks per sport per season, and you can play. Considering I would say more then 75% of people at our high school of 1400 play a sport, anywhere from track to volleyball to crew to football, the program partially pays for itself. If the average person plays a season of sports, thats $168k. I would say our athletics program pays for itself and more.

[Caowyth]

I'm so glad that I don't fit Hindraak's stereotype.

[Lisboa]

Perhaps it can be shown that maintaining the field is more expensive than astroturf over the expected lifespan of the astroturf.

[EZ_Ewan aka nach0king]

We'll be back to "Art Fags vs. Jock Scum" after these important words from these important messages.

Edit: That was a joke, FYI.

Jokah Sealclubber
65 Gnome Rogue & Veteran on Bristlebane
United KingdomsEdited by: Ewan aka nach0king at: 9/10/03 3:07 pm

[Biral]

Jokah i was about to make a joke along the similar lines For real though, some of you seem to be remembering high school days of getting pushed around by "dumb meathead jocks" and basing your opinion off that (Oh hi Hindraak).

edit: oh forgive me, stereotyping? not any worse then has been going on in this thread. Edited by: Biral at: 9/10/03 3:58 pm

[Dragynphyre]

I think that the schools should fund sports programs and arts programs equally - if an additonal fee/fundraising is required of art, drama, or music students, it should also be required of the athletes.

No more of this cutting the music and arts programs, while the school continues to fully fund the sports programs.

Also, all of these extracurricular activities should be voluntary on the part of the students. If only there was some way I could have opted out of Phys. Ed... like the example of tonedeaf people having to take Choir, or non-artistic people having to take Art, I had absolutely NO aptitude at the sports we had to play in Gym class. Luckily most of the instructors we had were sympathetic to those of us who weren't that good, and gave grades based on willingness to at least attempt the activity and if we didn't forget our gym clothes.

(Yes, I was one of those clutzy bookworms - though I was much better at volleyball than a lot of the other girls in the class - a lot of them took a step backwards, cringing, when the ball was heading towards them, so that the ball hit the floor at their feet) (Back In Black)
Veteran Delissandra Splitshadow - Half-Elven Assassin
Grandmaster Poisoner (250), Master Potter (188), Grandmaster Lush (200)

Cause I'm back on the track
And I'm beatin' the flack
Nobody's gonna get me on another rap

[Caowyth]

Quote:No more of this cutting the music and arts programs, while the school continues to fully fund the sports programs.

Fund sports and arts equally? Splendid idea.

Any money earned from tickets, concessions, shirts, etc by each program could go entirely to each program then, right? It would only be fair, wouldn't it?

[Dragynphyre]

Share the wealth, baby. Why should one group of students get their extracurriculars paid for while others have to fork over their own pocket money and stand outside of McDonalds with a can with a slot cut in the top of it?

Just because an art show doesn't bring in as much money as a basketball game doesn't mean that art is any less important.

[Kaielen]

I do understand the importance of a large number of athletes in highschool...

Without them who would eventually assume the role of flipping our burgers or bagging our groceries?

[Nenjin]

Except that the arts don't earn ticket money except for Drama. So then the question becomes, is the responsibility of the school and other activities to support the existance of the ones that do not pull in profit? I think so, although I'm sure those who've been into sports and not other things will probably disagree.

[EZ_Tameran]

This is quite possibly the most prejudiced thread I've ever read on the Safehouse.

[Nenjin]

Give it 20 minutes.

[Meddik]

It seems like some are saying that Athletics shouldn't be funded, but even if they make money, that money should all be taken away from athletics and used soemwhere else anyway.

What's next, just ban athletics altogether?

[Nenjin]

It should give back to the school in a reasonable proportion to what it makes, in dollars. If it gets 6% of the school funding, it should put then an equal amount should come back to the school from it's proceedes. If $65,000 dollars from the budget goes to funding their new weight equipment, 65,000 - their upkeep costs should come back into the school budget after 1000-2000 people pay $10 a game. Or what, are we supposed to make athletics a little exercise in corporate commercialism, where they owe the school nothing, use it's money, it's equipment, it's staff, and keep all the profit inside the athletic program?

[EZ_Ciba]

This whole self-sufficiency thing reminds me of the old Title IX arguments.

If athletics are self-sufficient, GREAT! If not, they shouldn't get more funding than on-campus programs.

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

Quote:What's next, just ban athletics altogether?

sounds good to me. it serves no educational purpose. Why not have a seperate athletic organization and let schools focus on educatioin instead of ego-inflation and mindless entertainment? Veda Kai'Rin

[Biral]

Why not make arts a separate institution then? Where do you draw the line of whats educational and whats not? Arts don't serve any purpose to probably around 75 or 80% of the students in my school. Most of them do something like handbells, or drama class, if at all, which is an easy class thats designed for the not so artistically inclined (although you can do advanced handbells or drama or whatever you want). If only a smaller part of the school is doing art, why not make it a separate institution?

Many more people play sports then take do arts at my school. Its a good experience, and not only that, gets your heart pumping - something i think everyone can agree is a good thing considering the extent of teenage obesity these days. calling sports ego inflating and mindless entertainment is a @#%$ ignorant opinion. Hey lets take a small % of a given set of people (in this case kids who play sports) and make it look like they all are that way! Can i play? Anyone who does an art in school will probably go to some lame community college and get a liberal arts degree - oh @#%$ nvm, i play 2 instruments in the band, thats me i'm talking about Who ever said this is a really prejudiced thread is right.

[EZ_Healo]

wow just after a few posts in this thread I realized how close minded the safe house posters are. Maybe most of you should do some research and find out where the athletic money is going to and the economic impact it has on the school.

I do not agree with the astroturf because alot of kids will be walking around with life altering injuries. I cant beleave they let them put that in.

[EZ_Hindraak]

Sorry for the stereotype, but if it's true 70% of the time, is it still a stereotype, or a rule with exceptions?
EDIT: Wow... People do read my posts.... Edited by: Hindraak at: 9/12/03 7:20 pm

[Glip the Gnome]

Hindraak, you're talking like you know a lot about highschool sports yet you admit you've never actually played any...?

Athletes are just the same as anyone else, some are dumb, most are average, some are pretty darn smart. And guess what? You DO learn things playing sports, and no I'm not just talking about learning how to throw the ball farther or run faster. You learn social skills, you learn about teamwork, you learn about leadership.

And as someone who hasn't experienced that, you're really not in a position to judge it.

Sports, football in particular are great for schools. Its something they can take pride in their school for, its a social event every time they've got a home game, it can be a lot of fun! You just need to stop making yourself hate it, at least until you've experienced some of it.

I'm not saying they're more important than other parts of school (drama, art, what-have-you) but they're definitely not a detriment to the students. They're good for the students.

Do I get really frustrated with how new stadiums and tracks keep getting built when other aspects of the school are in desperate need of repair? You bet I do, but you can't pin that on the students and thats exactly who you're hurting if you cut *any* program, be it sports or arts. So I dont see how you can argue for keeping arts but cutting sports, its hypocrisy.

[EZ_Hindraak]

i went to a "ghetto" school, where not much was expected, and sports was put in high perspective. The football team was pretty good I suppose, (3rd in county) and constantly the jocks(football) got special treatment. Hell, maybe it's pent up nerd rage. Oh, and I was in ROTC, who had alot of competitions, we were okay, but never got any recognition. Pent up ROTC, got shat on, rage maybe? Edited by: Hindraak at: 9/12/03 9:01 pm

[EZ_Filan Fyretracker]

lol joe, public schools are the only means of education till college really unless you can afford that yuppyland private stuff. but hey my high school had the #1 soccer team in the state votech system hehe.

[Nocte]

Go go tax funded football teams! w00t!!!

[Darkefang]

In general, what seems to make a lot of people angry about high-school sports is that in many cases they are not self-sustaining programs. Football teams in particular are infamous for getting huge subsidies from the general school budget. People see the football team getting new pads and uniforms every other year, and then see teachers from the english and history department getting laid off, and they get upset.

If school boards held athletics to the same budget constraints that academics are under, I think you would see a lot of the complaints go away.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:f school boards held athletics to the same budget constraints that academics are under, I think you would see a lot of the complaints go away.

If educators were accountable for performance like athletic coaches are...

[Nenjin]

That is a good point Ciba. There is a trade off for being an athletic coach, people expect results. Although, turnover based on success or failure isn't as extreme as to get someone fired for a losing season. I'm pretty sure there are preformance review boards for teachers too, but teachers are evaluated by the school board and/or faculty management. Coaches are evaluated by students, teachers, faculty, parents, alumni, the public.

[EZ_Ciba]

That's exactly it. My big beef with education is that poor teachers are shuffled around, not cut loose. Good teachers get to keep their jobs, but aren't rewarded on their stellar performance.

I am certain there are great potential teachers out there. So many people just don't want to deal with the crap. Some types of people require recognition on a job well done to succeed in their work, but unfortunately educators don't get this.

[Nenjin]

You have to remember about tenure though, it's the goal of every educator getting into the field. Once you get tenure, you've made your niche where your at. The only option is to get paid better at a different school.

At least, that was the case til budget cuts came around. Many teachers at my school who had been there for a long time, very talented educators, got 2 choices. Go get a job teaching middle school at the brand new shiny upper-middle class school, or be out of work. Then a new batch of fresh out of teacher's college, wet behind the ears, non tenured staff came to school, and they sweated bullets about their jobs.

[EZ_Ciba]

That's the problem with tenure. Some teachers with tenure have some sort of life change and their work goes in the toilet. I had several that were either beyond burnout, or something happened that they just didn't care about their job like they did when they gained tenure.

Tenure is a great concept, assuming that the quality of work continues after they gain tenure. It doesn't always happen though.

[EZ_Barrister]

I'd just like to say that w/out High school sports, there are no High school cheerleaders.

Cloauk N'Dger
Veteran Assassin of The Haven

[EZ_Healo]

Quote:If school boards held athletics to the same budget constraints that academics are under, I think you would see a lot of the complaints go away.


band equipment, play sets and costumes, and dance recitals arnt free either.

[Darkefang]

Quote:If educators were accountable for performance like athletic coaches are...

Only in a handful of schools does anyone really care if the coach wins. Most schools are not competitive in most sports. Schools don't have the luxury of having lots of good coaches to choose from or money to pay those coaches. They simply choose the best candidate from those that volunteer for the job, which in most states have to be teachers already on staff. Most coaches have to commit a really egregious offense to get fired or demoted.

Most coaches are held to the same standards that most teachers are held to. People can always think of individual exceptions, but we're concerned with trends here. The suggestion by some here that teachers don't do their jobs, and that they don't care, is ridiculous. Pretty much everyone that gets into teaching does so because they want to teach children. Even if they aren't particularly good at it, they are at least trying their best.

If you want to attract those that are perhaps better equipped for the job, but have chosen to pursue other, more lucrative careers, you have to raise salaries and/or benefits. There really is no way around it. Supply and demand rules the world. If you choose to do this, you are "throwing money at the schools."

Quote:band equipment, play sets and costumes, and dance recitals arnt free either.

And most of the time the money for this stuff is raised through fundraisers by the students participating and/or extra fees that students must pay. Many schools also charge admission to school plays and recitals. Trust me, schools aren't throwing tons of money at arts and music programs.

[EZ_Ciba]

Quote:The suggestion by some here that teachers don't do their jobs, and that they don't care, is ridiculous. Pretty much everyone that gets into teaching does so because they want to teach children.

I'm not by any means implying that all teachers are slackers. There are enough that the system needs an overhaul. The unions have cornered administration by accusing them of hating teachers every time they want to clean house.

Quote:If you want to attract those that are perhaps better equipped for the job, but have chosen to pursue other, more lucrative careers, you have to raise salaries and/or benefits. There really is no way around it. Supply and demand rules the world. If you choose to do this, you are "throwing money at the schools."

Have you considered that some excellent potential teachers don't want to work in an industry where they are not expected to perform well? I have at least two friends that chose private industry over teaching because they wanted an expectation of performance.

I had some wonderful teachers that changed my life. I also had several that were burned out and made me hate the industry.

note: I was in band, not athletics.

[EZ_Merdin]

Barrister sofar has made the best argument for keeping them Master Merdin
65 Arcanist
My stuff at:

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=495173

Borras Dmunk
51 disciple

[EZ_Ciba]

I second that Merdin.

[EZ_wombatman123]

As an athlete (and not band), just wanted to chime in and remind some of you that not all of us are subsidized out the ass by the school. Yeah, we got a new jersey every three or four if it was a good year with fundraising for sports, but that was about it. I should also mention that we actually had a very good art department (drama, arts, etc), where we won many prizes. Oh, and as for myself, I graduated 3rd in the class, am being paid to go to a good University (U. of South Carolina Honors College, majoring in Chemical Engineering....as in fuel cells and hydrogen power and such), and I was all-area football, and all-star baseball. So, just keep these things in mind. And, believe me, I know plenty of schools around here where the high school football game is what whole towns do on Friday nights, as well as having friends in various bands, so I do have a good perspective of both sides.