Girl Strife

[EZ_Srilettin]

Ok, not so much a rant, but something I really need to get off my chest.

This concerns one of my closest friends. I've known her since 8th grade (we're seniors now) and had a crush on her since I met her. Aside from the obvious physical attraction, she is witty, smart, and (when she drops her guard) quite a sensitive person. My relationship with her has been like this

-Infatuation: When I first met her, I did the usual stuff that people do in order to spend more time. I went to study groups with her, listend to the same music, etc.

-Crush: During this time I was practically unable to be with her at all without stuttering, saying something stupid, or doing something stupid to get her attention.

-Love: Ok, now this one is complicated. What happened, is that as I spent more and more time with her, and got to know her as a person, as opposed to a goddess, she began to open up to me. I saw a side to her that was sensitive and beautiful. I became her confidant and loved her like a sibling. Unfortunately, being a teenage guy, I had this irreconcilable desire to actually date her, even though our relationship had been entirely platonic.

I don't want you to think that I use the term "love" lightly. She inspired poems in me, I played the piano passionately when I thought of her, I would have done anything for her. Alas though, I confused this love of her with my physical lust for her, and when I awkwardly tried to tell her how I felt, I was shot down. Rather harshly, in fact.

Devoted Friend: At the moment, I think that our friendship is incredibly strong, but its come under some stressors. I've become a sort of a "girlfriend" to her. She tells me about her crushes, her romantic excapades, even more explicit things taht nearly drive me insane when I hear them. Also, she has quite a biting wit, and sometimes I take it far more personally than she means it, because I think I feel more strongly for her than she does me.

So, last week, we were sitting in a stupid assembly, and I jokingly suggested we should go to homecoming together. I really didnt mean anything, because she had already mentioned before that she wasnt interested in going with anyone. I didnt particularly want to go (since I had just had some relationship problems with my former-homecoming date) either, but as soon as I said it, her answer was a flat out "no". Not a casual let down, but more of a "why would you ever think of asking me to homecoming" thing. As if she had been asked by another girl in earnestness. It hurt me quite a bit, and made me think.

Clearly I still have that desire to become romantically interested with her. I don't think I can do anything to change that. What I'm afraid of though, is that our friendship is entirely along the lines of "When Harry met Sally" i.e. I only hang around with her in the off chance that I'll get to sleep with her.

Argh. Stupid hormones, they just complicate everything.

[EZ_DreambringerAB]

Bud, you have entered(twilight zone theme song here) THE FRIENDSHIP ZONE!


No going back Sorry man
You should have laid your "game" down long ago.

You can never un-become her friend. Once a woman tells you whos shes @#%$, don't even think about having sex with her. If your penis thinks otherwise, just beat it.
(lame pun intended)

[EZ_DreambringerAB]

Oh yeah buddy, read this...all you ever needed to know

THE LADDER

[EZ_Srilettin]

I think you completely misunderstood me. I would be fine with "just" being her friend, if I knew that I wasn't subconsciously trying to score with her. Thats not the kind of motivation that I want to have.

Also, that ladder thing makes the writer look like a jackass. Not all men are entirely sexually driven

[EZ_DreambringerAB]

Not all men are entirely sexually driven


hahaha....hahahah!!!

[EZ_Srilettin]

Thank you, not only have you provided me with NOTHING helpful, you've also mocked a personal opinion. Please leave my thread and dont come back

[Elerion]

That ladder thing was @#%$ amazing

EDIT: And Srilettin, I bet she's just sorta nervous you'll get the wrong idea again. You are on the friend ladder, and she doesnt want to have to kick you into the abyss. Hang out with her if you like her. I have several (two in particular) very good girl friends that I love hanging out, just because they are really cool loads of fun. They are truly friends. I would still @#%$ them both in an instant if they asked though, cause they are amazingly beautiful AND really, really cool. Nothing wrong with that. Edited by: Elerion at: 9/26/03 5:20 pm

[EZ_Fattie Mcbutterpants]

Not all men are entirely sexually driven

Yes, that's very true. But the ones who aren't already have boyfriends.

[EZ_Srilettin]

Yeah, thanks Elerion, thats exactly how I feel.

[EZ_Xanyia]

I know your feelings are very serious for this girl, but it's my personal experience that when I told a guy I saw him as a friend hell could freeze solid before i changed my mind.

/comfort

On the other hand there's no limit to the number of friends you can have, so I would rather spend time with somebody who is just a friend to you too, or keep your eyes open in case a nice girl that could have a romantic interest in you shows up.

[EZ_Boot Disk]

Srilettin . . . There's always faith required in any relationship, platonic or otherwise. By faith, I mean trust in something that you have absolutely no way of proving. e.g., You can't prove that a person likes to hang out with you and that they're not just pitying you. So, likewise, you cannot prove that you really like hanging out with someone and that it's not hormones. You just have to have faith in it, I think.

If you have a really cool friend, awesome. Cherish that, don't risk losing it for something that is not meant to be, and fap heartily. "Scis, semper cogitabam unicornes erunt prodigii, atque?"
"Itaque," dixit unicornis,"si tu mihi accredideris, ego tibi accredam."

[EZ_Geidon]

I would sooner chew on a .357 round then be a girls friend if I liked her like you...slowly and painlessly totally break this off for your own sanity. Sadly I know as good as this advice is you will not take it because your so into her you will not care how bad she hurts you as long as you get anything.

[EZ_Srilettin]

Quote:Cherish that, don't risk losing it for something that is not meant to be, and fap heartily.

Best. Advice. Evar.

[EZ_Popi Tinythug]

Taken from the ladder wesbite
Quote:Cuddle Bitches
cuddle bitch(n) - a guy who never gets to sleep with a girl but gets to have intimate moments with her like cuddling, spooning, or otherwise being affectionate. Usually this will occur in private. She probably considers him a really sweet guy, which is the kiss of death.

First off, cuddle bitches are bad, bad things to be. Maybe the worst thing to be. I mean, being an Intellectual Whore is bad, but being an Intellectual Whore who has to endure blue-balls is bordering on criminal.

As to how it fits into the framework of the ladder.

Basically this is just a guy who has a very high position on the friends ladder. So far up the friends ladder that he gets the dubious honor of getting to provide all the intimacy that a girl is missing when she's off @#%$ guys who basically don't care about her like outlaw bikers and band members. So he gets to be the proxy father/confessor/friend/teddy bear for her, depending on what she is missing at the time. Perhaps the only consolation of this is a ladder jump to the real ladder seems statistically a little more likely to succeed. Of course, when one is that high up the fall is dreadful indeed....

How do we know this? Well, if a woman had a nice loving boyfriend then he would be doing all the cuddling and whatnot and likely wouldn't stand for a woman maintaining a stable of cuddle bitches. Unless he's completelty pussified, in which case she's likely @#%$ some other people anyway.

For guys unacquainted with Ladder Theory, it is even worse. The cuddle bitch often thinks he is on the good ladder as opposed to the real ladder. So he gets all excited about his position instead of realizing he is being completely used. So this poor tool is really setting himself up for a fall at that point.

Note: This does not apply if cuddling under the influence of mushrooms, for the express purposes of avoiding hypothermia, or if the woman is a whore that you've recently paid for sex. Cuddling is perfectly acceptable and probably non-sexual in these circumstances.



Wow that is exactly me... I feel like such a tool right now Bring out the Gimp!

[Lisboa]

I often find I like someone a lot and think of them as a close friend, and then discover we only had a friendship of convenience. In otherwords, I tend to be much more sentimental about things than others. Just be careful you aren't the same here, Srillettin, and if you are, learn to care only as much as they care for you.

[Krimzan]

Quote:
Also, that ladder thing makes the writer look like a jackass. Not all men are entirely sexually driven

All other men are pigs, you are different though, you care. You can be friends with a girl and not occasionally think, "Man she'd look good naked asleep next to me." You are rare and special, very few other guys can honestly say, like you can, that you aren't sexually driven...

...except the other guys in high school who are desperatly trying to claw their way out of the coffin of conformity. Somehow you are different than 99% of the other men in the world? That you, in your 1x years of experience are more wise than those older men who you are so differnt from? You are different than guys who are 5 years older, we call it an idea of self, and maturity. You are sexually driven. All men are sexually driven. Men are sexually driven when they are 20, and they are sexually driven when they are 50. You, sir, are in denial about a very key part of your person. You'll go on about how different you are, and how you want to have different intentions, and you should be able to sell some highschool girls on that if you sit them down and tell them about it too. I'm sure there's some Emo guys you could sell on it too pretty easily.

My best advice to you is: get used to it, because it will happen the rest of your life. Repressing it, denying it, feeling shame for it will not at all help matters, it will make them worse. It's plenty ok to be friends with a girl and know that if her cloths came off you'd @#%$ her brains out. It's also ok to be friends with a girl that you know if her cloths came off you'd explain to her that you thought this would mess up your relationship (though if you are single and she's single, I really recomend against this route, friends who turn to girlfriends are very good). Do yourself a favor and don't worry about it. There's so much @#%$ in your life right now that you will look back on and say, "Why, dear God, why did I worry about any of that crap. I should have paid more attention to X."

Oh, and re-read the ladder theory.

[EZ_Boot Disk]

No, really, Krimzan, I beg to differ. There are some other men out there who really only desire platonic comradeship.

Eunuchs. Edited by: Boot Disk at: 9/27/03 8:55 am

[EZ_Saltiness]

I was in the same position with a girl friend of mine a year ago. I had a huge crush on her forever, but I never thought I had a chance with her so I just enjoyed being friends with her. Then on new years, she said that she had a huge crush on me and that all led to hooking up and dating and all that. Then we realized that while it was fun dating, we had a lot more fun when we were just friends. We tried to go back to being friends, but it was really awkward. We couldn't talk to eachother like we were just friends anymore because we both knew about the attraction we had for eachother. Eventually, everything just turned sour because of that and we stopped hanging out altogether. We only see eachother once a month at the most now. I wish we had just stayed friends. I don't know if this is a common thing at all but it's my experience with it atleast.

[EZ_Srilettin]

Quote:...except the other guys in high school who are desperatly trying to claw their way out of the coffin of conformity. Somehow you are different than 99% of the other men in the world? That you, in your 1x years of experience are more wise than those older men who you are so differnt from? You are different than guys who are 5 years older, we call it an idea of self, and maturity. You are sexually driven. All men are sexually driven. Men are sexually driven when they are 20, and they are sexually driven when they are 50. You, sir, are in denial about a very key part of your person. You'll go on about how different you are, and how you want to have different intentions, and you should be able to sell some highschool girls on that if you sit them down and tell them about it too. I'm sure there's some Emo guys you could sell on it too pretty easily.

Ok, aside from that being pretty antagonistic, I think you were missing the main point of my post. I don't think I ever asserted that I was Sir Galahad the Chaste. I still have a strong sexual desire for this girl, ok? I was lacking the faith to believe that our friendship could be about other things.

I still think the guy who wrote the ladder thing is a jackass. "I don't hate women, but 99% of them are bitches." I can't stand broad generalizations like that (no pun intended) whether its that all women are evil manipulative vixens, or that all guys are horndogs, or that all asian people are good at math. It just disgusts me

*edit*
I also wasn't necesarrily referring to myself when I made the "not all men..." quote, but regardless, I think the word you missed in that sentance is "entirely" Edited by: Srilettin at: 9/27/03 3:47 pm

[EZ_Hindraak]

You want sex, the only purpose of your existence. It's normal, quite trying to be uber noble and there to be as much a best friend as a boyfriend. That only works in Romantic Comedies staring the guy who married Liz Hurley, yet still felt the need to sleep with whores. Cuz that's were you're going.

But if you just don't want to ruin a good friendship, then don't chance it. It won't work, and you'll feel like crap.

[EZ_Swipey]

Stay friends with her or don't. But the all the heartache and angst in the world wont get her to 'come around' and decide you're the man for her. Pining away after some woman who isnt interested in what you are interested in is a death trap. Other opportunities will be missed, and even women who manage to register in your consiousness will pale beside the radiance that is your idealized image of this woman you're infatuated with. If you let it become a pattern, you will end up middle aged and have never had a real girlfriend... just 3 or 4 long term crushes on women who werent interested in you that way.

The Ladder Theory guy may think she is usung you to fill certain of her emotional needs (which she isnt getting filled elsewhere) and maybe she is. Just be aware that she is also filling some of your emotional needs too, and dont allow the fact that those are being filled by her to distract or dissuade you from looking to get those same needs (and maybe more) filled elsewhere.

[EZ_Aldarion Shard]

as genius as the Ladder Theory site is, Krimzan... your anti-denial piece was even better.

I propose an amendmant to the ladder theory. (btw, can we start calling it a law already? I dont know how much more replicaton we could ask for...)

seriously... anyone who reads what Krimzan wrote and disagrees.. needs to print it out and read it daily. @#$%, I wish Id read that 8 years ago. Veda Kai'Rin

[Krimzan]

Thanks, Aldarion

I wish I'd had the experience to write it 8 years ago.

[EZ_YanguBoris]

What sucks is when your in that exact position, but she's dating one of your closest friends...disaster waiting to happen /cringe "The surest way to corrupt youth is to instruct him {or her} to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Nietzsche

[Lisboa]

Riiight... take your romantic advice from the college kids and high school kids. After your early 20s your sex drive will begin to decline. If you grow up and become a man instead of a boy, you'll recognize the ladder theory is a joke, like bonsai kitty or Ann Coultier.... or you'll never grow up and you'll always be chasing tail and failing with relationships and marriages. Because you'll never learn to see half the population as anything other than a means to an end. Edited by: Lisboa at: 9/30/03 11:33 pm

[EZ_Saltiness]

I think that's kind of obvious, Lisboa. The Ladder is meant for younger people because that's where all the scenerios described by it apply. Nothing wrong with taking advice from it while you're young because it works.

[Kaielen]

For anyone trying to justify their own tendancies by saying that ALL men are sexually driven, I say to take responsibilty for yourself and stop trying to bring others down. After about 18, real men are career driven and harbor the hope of having a family.

Tell this girl how you feel. Tell her EVERYTHING. Bare your soul, but DON'T let her speak until you are done. Then, after you are through telling her, break off the friendship. Buddy, you're too close and you're just torturing yourself. You can make new friends that won't twist your guts into knots.

You're too good for her anyway.

[EZ_Jayan Thornfoot]

I just dont think you can go on fooling yourself with this girl anymore. Personally I was never "friends" with any girl I didnt want to sleep with.

Lucky for me I was able to turn the corner on about 80% of them . However in your case I would start to remove myself from this relationship or scale it back greatly. Its not healthy for you to sit there liking her from a far, and yes she is using you to fill a role until she finds someone she really likes to fill them all and has little or no use for you after that. Sure you are still going to be friends but why lie to yourself. You like this girl even love in your words. I say @#%$ or get off the pot.

Open up to her the things you told us and get her stance once and for all. Or bide your time for a moment of weakness and try to weasel in knowing she really isnt going to love you forever, but to continue to kiss her arse and wait for her to notice you in a boyfriend way kinda plays you out (in her eyes and yours) and maybe other folks in your circle as well.

Personally I always used the friend deal first off to get to know them and all that jazz(stage 1). Then when that was going well kinda distance yourself as they come to rely on you(stage2) and finally just ignore, brood, argue, rebel against them and eventually they will realize what they had and are missing (or think they are missing stage 3).

Eventually you gotta have some sack and kick the crutch out from her. Maybe she stumbles and turns back to you, dont play sheep dog to much longer cause frankly its sappy. Sheep dog friends blah blah blah never get the girl...its a good foot in the door but once in you gotta do better than that.


Edit: Sig rules....



Edited by: Aidden at: 10/1/03 5:23 am

[Krimzan]

Quote:
For anyone trying to justify their own tendancies by saying that ALL men are sexually driven, I say to take responsibilty for yourself and stop trying to bring others down. After about 18, real men are career driven and harbor the hope of having a family.

Wow, I'm not sure what is more offensive: the female thinking, or the ignorance.
Quote:
After about 18, real men are career driven and harbor the hope of having a family.

That's just a winner right there. Hats off to the chap who landed you, toots.

[Kaielen]

I'm male. Thanks for proving my point.

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

Am I the only one that finds it amusing that with each girl rant, the people who are the most verbal in offering advice are those who can't score dates themselves and chances are, have had a girl rant of their own here not long ago?

[EZ_Urusai]

Tis why I dont post anything.
The odd side of that though, ive talked quite a few couples back together or helped them work things out. I seem to be good at the whole "Get along with them" thing but I just cant find a girl I like myself.

Im like a marrage councler who's never been married.

[Krimzan]

You, my friend, are a disgrace to the gender. Please feed yourself, genetalia first, through a wood-chipper.

[EZ_Prenn]

Ladder Theory should be taken as a true joke. There are many parts that are really true, and those that aren't. If you disbelieve it, you don't give a @#%$. If you do believe it, be very careful in using it to sculpt your outlook. It's far more bleaque than life should be, so try to avoid long term relationships that are stereotypically perfect ladder matches. Unless you want that.

But the ladder theory defines bitches as women who won't be honest with why they won't sleep with you. Your comedy 'close the window as soon as I read the statistic' reaction betrayed you. But this girl sounds like she's made it very clear why she won't screw you. Or has she?

Anyway, yes. YOu're in an uneven relationship, even the friendship. Does she even listen to you when you talk about your problems, concerns, interests? Does she hurry you through it, or provide input and reaction? That's probably the easiest way to see how she values your friendship.

And yeah, you're never going to @#%$ her. Seriously.



Some guys do eventually realize that sex makes up a minority of the time you spend living life and look for good personalities in addition to the sex, because having a good friend as your partner who is as interested in you as you are in them is teh besto. But stringless sex (and no personality) is usually cool to single guys.

[Jhani Vandolay]

"All other men are pigs, you are different though, you care. [...] Somehow you are different than 99% of the other men in the world?"

Since when does "not all" equate to "everyone else but me"? At least try to make it look like you put a moment's thought into your argument.

"For anyone trying to justify their own tendancies by saying that ALL men are sexually driven, I say to take responsibilty for yourself and stop trying to bring others down."

Can we spread that to all of the "all males" or "all females" excuses? Cowards blame everyone else for their feelings.. If you honestly consider yourself validated, at least step up and say "I feel this way", instead of "Everybody's doin' it.."

"Am I the only one that finds it amusing that with each girl rant, the people who are the most verbal in offering advice are those who can't score dates themselves and chances are, have had a girl rant of their own here not long ago?"

Damn right. There should be a waiting period between posting a "Why oh why won't any girls sleep with me?" rant and offering others relationship advice. Although it's kinda fun that you can tell how miserable people's personal lives are based on the vehemence towards the opposite sex. The people who are gettin' some never seem to get so hostile about other people's sex lives. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[EZ_Urusai]

Quote: You, my friend, are a disgrace to the gender. Please feed yourself, genetalia first, through a wood-chipper.

But what if I like that.


Dont get me wrong, its not as if I havent had a girlfriend or two, just that they dont turn out to be what they protrayed themselves as when we first met. And its not like I dont have admirers either. Its just that none of them appeal to me. The ones ive been intrested in were already taken and im not about to break up a couple for my own desires. (Even though I probably could If I wanted to. And make me seem like the superhero to the girl to. But that wouldent be the best way to start a relationship.)

[Jazya]

Quote:Am I the only one that finds it amusing that with each girl rant, the people who are the most verbal in offering advice are those who can't score dates themselves and chances are, have had a girl rant of their own here not long ago? Which do you learn more from?

1. A correct decision that made everything easy

2. A mistake and living through the reporcussions Your Sister in Arms,

Jazya Vechette
Deceiver () Ayonae Ro
Email | Profile

[Lisboa]

You can learn only so much from your mistakes.

[Kaielen]

You can also only pull the trigger so many times before you find the bullet.

Some people learn a lot faster than others.

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

Quote:Which do you learn more from?

1. A correct decision that made everything easy

2. A mistake and living through the reporcussions

Actually, I learn best by just allowing time to age me, growing up, and being wiser. Retrospectively, all of my love problems in the past were due to foolishless and an immature perception of 'love.' Nothing anyone else has ever told me played much of a role in the success of my current relationship. My relationship works now because BOTH parties are mature enough to handle situations as they arise, and we have priorities. Someone telling me that women are psycho, men are pigs, etc etc etc has NOTHING to do with my relationship with my fiance.

[Jazya]

Quote:being wiser. Retrospectively, all of my love problems in the past were due to foolishless and an immature perception of 'love.'and wouldn't you chalk that up as 'experience' instead of what day it is today relative to the day you were born? Your Sister in Arms,

Jazya Vechette
Deceiver () Ayonae Ro
Email | Profile

[EZ_Nyssa Rainwhisper]

No, because as I grew older, I realized that things like having a hot date for homecoming and prom are not only trivial, and unimportant, but finding someone of quality who loves me as much as I love him means and goes a lot farther. Dating experience has nothing to do with that, but rather, as you grow up, your priorities change and you realize that there's more to life than having a Britney Spears arm candy to show to your friends, then bitch if she won't put out. Perhaps other life experiences such as learning to live on your own makes you feel this way, but dating experience has little to do with. At least for me. If dating experience, and my experience with men dictated how successful my relationship with my fiance is, then we wouldn't be getting married because yes, at some point in my life, I did feel that men were pigs.

[Jhani Vandolay]

Someone who has a lot of negative experience who still cannot progress into a satisfying phase offers what in the way of advice, exactly?

No one said "Anyone who's ever had a bad relationship better sthu".. just that the people who are constantly complaining about opposite sex woes probably aren't going to have the most helpful opinions. If they're still bitching, I'm willing to bet they haven't learned much in the way of helpful advice, no matter what the method.

[EZ_Shamsung]

The Ladder dude left the "the greatest sex theory". Regardless of how rich you are, there'll be that person that you had the greatest sex with...and that is a good start.

[Jazya]

Quote:Someone who has a lot of negative experience who still cannot progress into a satisfying phase offers what in the way of advice, exactly?What behavior 'flags' to look for and avoid! Your Sister in Arms,

Jazya Vechette
Deceiver () Ayonae Ro
Email | Profile