Pedric inspired me; games are too easy.

[EZ_Tabbran]

Save states, save points, Game Sharks, codes, what have you. Games are too easy. When a rare game that is actually difficult comes out, everyone complains about how difficult it is. Boo friggin hoo, get better and call back.

Ever beat Lunar? The final fight with the Magic Emperor was an epic battle, the first time I did it, it took me forty five minutes of some of the most intense console RPG effort I've ever put forth. The mechanics of that game make the fight not just hard, but exceedingly difficult, winning was an accomplishment. And know what happened? I died after I beat him, and I had to do it again.

Was I upset? Yeah, that fight was HARD. Did I do it again? You bet all your precious little save points and memory cards I did. It only took me twenty minutes this time, but my shirt was soaked through with sweat, I was twitching, I felt emotionally drained -- I fought and defeated the toughest RPG boss since Zeromus TWICE.

FF3/6 was a fun game, storyline got convoluded, but it was fun. However, all that buildup was completely RUINED by what an AWFUL final encounter Kefka was. Underwhelming is the understatement of forever. He was weak, the Statue was tougher than he was. Feh.

I see the Final Fantasy threads, and inevitably someone mentions how cool Kefka was, and how he's their hero. I have to bite my proverbial tongue to keep from yelling at these people and getting banned. But I will say this: Your idol just got owned by an auto-fight party (Gau on rage, Gogo mimic rage, Umaro, and Mog dancing).

The day of "gaming" has gone, people "play" games now. Even if a game is aimed toward teens, the difficulty is such that a retarded monkey with two (webbed) fingers could complete it. It's all about "casual" play, a game you can pick up and put down. You wouldn't want to hurt the pride of the ADD "Playing" nation now, would you?

Aww. Get the hell over it, know that you suck, and you have no skills. You don't want to work on the skills, you just want to keep going where you left off at with full life again so you have a better chance to beat the next obstacle. There's a word for people like that, they're called scrubs.

Where has the focus, the determination, the will to increase skill in playing gone? Unfortunately, hard games don't sell as well because people don't like to work hard, so I can't even hope for a resurgence in really hard games any more. We're all friggin doomed. Safehouse Minority Terror Squad Commander

[EZ_PandaJoe]

Good points. Why should anything but the most skilled players be allowed to have fun?

[EZ_Random TM]

The first step is to admit that you're a scrub, you're probably going to stay a scrub, and that there's nothing wrong with having no skills. Aside from being a scrub. go back to all the scrub games. Accept that there will be a few you won't be able to beat, because, hey, you're a scrub. No skills.

The third step? Profit.

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:I see the Final Fantasy threads, and inevitably someone mentions how cool Kefka was, and how he's their hero. I have to bite my proverbial tongue to keep from yelling at these people and getting banned. But I will say this: Your idol just got owned by an auto-fight party (Gau on rage, Gogo mimic rage, Umaro, and Mog dancing).

Okay wtf. Yeah, if your gonna dirtbag him, yeah he's pretty @#%$ trivial.

I'm someone who actually did lose to Kefka the first time I fought him playing through the game. Why? Probably because my characters weren't all 70+ with economizers and offerings and gem boxes. Yeah, technically, if you give a level 99 Terra with a Genji Glove and an Offering the Atma Weapon and Excaliber, she can kill Kefka in a single assault, but if you haven't gotten searched out every corner of the game yet, he's a slightly more balanced encounter.

So as I said, I fought Kefka until I beat him before going around the planet and getting every little item and teaching everyone every spell(hell I had even gotten Shadow killed) and he wasn't THAT easy(Zeromus was still alot more challanging though). But then, after beating the game the first time, I did spend the time anally exploring the world, and yes, afterwards he was trivial.

And btw, if your using an autofight party, why are you even @#%$ playing the game at all?

So to sum up my point, just because you schooled Kefka using a gimp tactic doesn't make you any better player that somebody who had a tougher time against him than you because he played the game normally. If anything, it means they are probably a better player because they managed to beat him without the advantages of reading though gamefaqs.com you probably did.


That said, I agree games are too easy these days.

"Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ"
Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 11/21/03 1:52 am

[EZ_Tabbran]

Quote:So to sum up my point, just because you schooled Kefka using a gimp tactic doesn't make you any better player that somebody who had a tougher time against him than you because he played the game normally. If anything, it means they are probably a better player because they managed to beat him without the advantages of reading though gamefaqs.com you probably did.

Sorry to ruin your amazing Kreskin-like powers of prediction, but Gamefaqs didn't even exist when I beat the game the first time. In fact, the closest thing I had to help me with progress was Prodigy's Video Games BB, which was more rumor than fact. Anyway, the autofight party was to see if it could be done on one of my multiple times through it, and it could -- I didn't even have to do anything.

The game was fun, else I wouldn't have played it so much. I even lost to the statue my first time through. Then I ruined it, and I ruined Kefka on my first try. My guys were not all 99, they were around 60ish, maybe as high as 70ish. The only thing that hurt me was having to use the characters that I never used and were simply not good and had crap for equipment (because I didn't have a spoiler walkthrough telling me what to expect, OMG!).

But if that's gimping, so be it (Sabin had the genji glove and offering)!

[EZ_Mildaene]

Uh yup, I'm not that bad, and Kefka was no pushover for my party, which made the thing actually enjoyable. RPGs are usually so easy that passing on levelling makes them musch better imho (most have either a skill or item to reduce/negate random encounters. Either use that or flee, until random encounters are balanced with your party again when you get too high).

Anyway I also agree that games nowadays are usually so easy that they rapidly lose any interest. What's so hard about shipping games with easy/normal/hard difficulty settings (which just tweak a few numbers like double monsters hp/damage or divide the gained xp by the party's level), instead of having me have to play through the super-duper easy level (getting me bored and burnt-out in the process) just to maybe unlock the "hard" game?


-Mildaene, white Rose of Kelethin.

[DarthEnderX]

Tabbran, what is this Statue you refer too? I don't remember it.

Quote:What's so hard about shipping games with easy/normal/hard difficulty settings

I concur. "Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ"

[EZ_Tabbran]

The statue is the three-screen-long fight before Kefka.

[EZ_Northerner]

Final Fantasy games generally get easy towards the end *if* you go around and complete a ton of sidequests right near the end. Heck, Final Fantasy games can generally be completed straight through with some challange intact but most people don't really bother.

To be quite fair though, I always try a new FF with no spoilers (although it is tempting when you get stuck) and there are some tough fights in there if you don't take time off or reset after every mistake you make. The second time through they are universally easy, although still a good bit of fun.

I guess it boils down to the way that FF inverts the MMOLG power pyramid. In FF games you actually tend to grow in power faster than your adversaries and the fights actually get easier, not harder. Sure, a few throw some psuedo-tactical tricks at you (normally in the form of "guess my status/elemental attack!") but the majority of them are trivial once you start collecting even a couple of the rare but incredibly potent spells/materia/weapons/items and such. Celeris Tujimson
Maurading Deceiver of The Nameless

Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.
William Goldman, "The Princess Bride"

[Elerion]

I don't know, with the length of games being released today, I'm quite happy with the difficulty in most of them. Back when a "perfect" run through a game could take 15 minutes (Mario 1) or 8 hours in the case of "long" games like FFVI, difficulty was required to keep the value of the game up. Nowadays, a lot of games I enjoy as much for the story as the actual gameplay, and I hate bumping my head against one boss/character/riddle/wtf for 3 hours without being able to progress, unless it's a final boss or something equally trivial. Imagine playing a game with Cobra difficulty, and a perfect run time of 20 hours. You'll never finish it. Granted, there are some games that are just too simple at the lowest setting, but most of those can be pumped up to medium or hard right away. I can't remember a name with "unlockable hard" modes that wasn't moderately hard on the first run through off the top of my head (Well, maybe DMC2, sadly). Try doing Max Payne 2 on your first run through without using quicksave/quickload at all, I bet you'll spend 15-20 hours on what took me 8 with qs/ql.

Right now, Soul Calibur 2 Weapon Master is giving me a few nice challenges on EASY, cause I haven't played it in arcades or touched a FAQ/WT yet. Last game I finished, MP2, had pretty much perfect difficulty imo. It's a shame it loses much of it's flow because quickloading is almost a necessity in every major firefight.

Let me add a rant of my own on that matter:
I hate games that let you keep your health and healthkits between levels. If it's a seamless non-level game, alright, it adds continuity. If it's a broken up, level based game like MP and HL though, and it supports quicksaving/quickloading, all it accomplishes is making you quickload until you get the "perfect" run most of the time, just in case there's a difficult level or boss next. I remember getting to the final boss in Tomb Raider way back on Playstation, having basically jack left of healthkits, and I never finished that game (legally) because it was impossibly hard without health kits (or seemed at the time, at least). I couldnt load a previous game either, cause PS saving in TR didnt work that way. This mechanic causes boss fights and other hurdles to have VASTLY varying difficulties. I grabbed a cheat code and got myself lots of healthpacks back then, and finished the boss almost without a sweat, having used something like 7 large healthkits on my first try. Pheh. Of course this doesn't apply if you use a walkthrough, but where's the fun in that?
EDIT: Just realised Ped ranted about something like this. Blah. Edited by: Elerion at: 11/21/03 5:08 am

[Kaielen]

All this and noone is going to mention Emerald weapon?

I beat Zeromus on my first try, with mid level 50 characters, and Statue and Kefka I beat with level 60s and missing quite a few side quest things.

When I got to FFVII and experienced the challenge of a game with no walkthroughs (at the time when I beat it) and had to figure out the Gold Chocobo thing on my own and figure out the Guide Book/Underwater materia thing on my own and then train ALL of my materia to master to get the Master Materias, I almost wet myself. That was the MOST fun I've ever had with a game.

That being said...I miss Final Fantasy. Too bad they killed it.

(And, no, FFXI is NOT Final Fantasy)

[Kelthana]

In addition to varying levels of difficulty in RPGs, I'd love to see an element of relative difficulty instead of absolute difficulty. For example, Dungeon Boss #5 might only lose 1% of his maximum hit points from any single attack, instead of a quadded 9999. His level could be the same as the highest level party member, plus a few levels. Non-boss creatures could be the same as always, so that the players who like to spend a lot of extra time leveling up can still feel superior by steamrolling them.

And the AI of a lot of RPGs feels just as aimlessly random as the first cheesy examples of the genre, and difficulty level does nothing but upping some numbers. Come on, programmers...have the monsters play smarter.

[Jhani Vandolay]

People don't like Kefka because he's difficult to beat, people like Kefka because he's cool, and by cool I mean totally sweet.

And what's with memory cards and all that nonsense? Real video games need to have reset held while you turn it off with the other hand or else your games get erased and the cartridge goes buggy. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[EZ_Absolute Master]

Quote: My guys were not all 99, they were around 60ish, maybe as high as 70ish.

60ish 70ish? That's actually pretty high for the first time you beat Kelfka. Try it in your 40s and 50s. Final Fantasy final bosses have always been rather easy (and FF6 is probably the easiest out of them), but they were never balanced for level 99 characters. But most final fantasy games have an optional boss which are generally much MUCH harder then the end boss.

Emerald Weapon would completly destroy Sephiroth. I've beaten Chaos on Final Fantasy 1 at level 25. Have fun killing WarMech at that level while he chains NUCLEAR . I've beaten Ultemecia with Squall at level 70, with everyone else around level 30 (and that was before I knew how to properly junction and without the Lionheart and special weapons). Ultemecia fight took me over an hour, and yes I died a few times to her. Ultemecia was completly outmatched by Omega Weapon.

Just because a game gives you the option to level to 99, does not mean that you should. You will find it much more challenging and fun playing at lower levels. Edited by: Absolute Master at: 11/21/03 6:58 am

[EZ_Trophimuss]

"People don't like Kefka because he's difficult to beat, people like Kefka because he's cool."

Jhani, I couldn't agree with you more.

For a lot of people, gaming is to have fun... not accomplish a 7 hour task with no breaks.

For me, the fun/accomplishment factors become relative to the time I have to spend on a game. When I was younger, I maxed out all of my characters (mastered every class with Ramza on FFT) and had a blast doing it. When I got a job, and later started college, I didn't have time for that any more. I play the games for the enjoyment and I don't worry about going through the game to show my gaming skills.

I LOVE the alternate boss fights like the Weapons in FF7 btw.


P.S. FFX was WAY too easy and it could be beaten in one sitting... pathetic.

[EZ_Pedric Cuf]

Random, Tabbran, I just want to repeat slightly what I replied in my post. WTF is with the elitism and anger? Do you truly feel that the ability to do these things makes you so incredibly superior to others, that you can insult them? AKA calling PJ and others a "scrub". I admit and admire that there is a lot of skill to accomplish these things, but I do NOT agree that it in any way gives you permission to insult and belittle someone not on your level. I would say "and deprive them of enjoying the same games", but thankfully, most people don't have your attitudes. I am curious, though, if you had the chance, WOULD you deprive others of enjoying a game? As in, making an unforgiving game with no save points or difficulty settings. Obviously it wouldn't ever get made as you know because Video Games are a booming industry now and people realize that doesn't sell except to a minority.

I'm all for difficulty settings, but unfortunately, I've never seen a difficulty setting that turned off saving if the game had it. I want to play a challenging game like Viewtiful Joe, but I also don't want to repeat myself. I WANT to play Adult mode, but again, I don't want to repeat myself. The first time I beat a boss I am happy with myself. I may have done it over and over and had lots of trouble, but I eventually figured out how to do it and I got good at it, and then beat him....then I died because I had one health remaining and back to the boss.

You're right, though, games are made nowadays so that anyone can beat them given enough time. I don't understand why that's a bad thing, though. As I said in my other rant, I'll use the 'ol Everquest Argument(tm); Didn't they spend the same amount of money for the game? Why do you deserve to have all the fun while they'll have none? On the flipside, though, I agree that you should have insanely hard games so that you can have your bragging rights and your sweat and caffeine filled nights. (Hey, that rhymes) That's how you get your kicks and your bragging rights. (although as I've said, it doesn't give you the goddamned right to insult someone)

Anyways, I'm finished. Viva la difficulty settings.

[Meddik]

Constant Bragging about what difficulty settings you beat a certain game on sounds like you compensation for something.

Edit: Compensation for my own poor english skills. Edited by: Meddik at: 11/21/03 11:24 am

[EZ_Peebs]

A lot of the time I have a hard time with bosses in even the easier RPGs. My problem is I usually start to get bored and blitz through them to get to the end as fast as I can, and I miss all of the leveling up and good equipment along the way. FFX was the most recent one I did that in.

(There were a few battles in Xenogears that were really hard to. Like a really tough boss battle followed immediately by another tough boss battle with no save or resting in between)

Edit: I don't see how skill plays much of a part in these RPGs though. More patience with a little bit of strategy and planning depending on the game. Edited by: Peebs at: 11/21/03 11:02 am

[EZ_Random TM]

Pedric, I insult and belittle you because it's you're so damned cute when you're mad. Baby, why you always gotta make me hurt you?

You want to play a challenging game like Viewtiful Joe, but you don't want a challenge. You WANT to play adult mode, but again, you don't want to beat it with working. You want to beat the boss the first time, then never have to face him again, because hey, you came out with one health, you obviously have it down. Some games make you work for it, but that's obviously unfair to the less talented.

Anyway, viva la difficulty settings indeed. Now go back to kids mode.






Scrub.

[Llabak Tharr]

I would propose that anyone who thinks that because they are good at video games they are somehow better than other people at anything other than the video games in question is a tool.

Just my proposal.

[EZ_Random TM]

No, no, no. Me and Tabbran are better then you guys in more ways then there are stars in the sky. The videogame skills are just a side effect.

[Jhani Vandolay]

Did Llabak just propose to Random and Tabbran? Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[Nenjin]

He wants to get them "incorporated".

[Llabak Tharr]

They said yes, we're incorporating!

[EZ_Pedric Cuf]

"You want to play a challenging game like Viewtiful Joe, but you don't want a challenge."

No. I want a challenge but I also want to be able to save my progress at frequent intervals. The game has plenty of challenge without that part, and although it's easier if you had save points, it's still challenging.

"You WANT to play adult mode, but again, you don't want to beat it with working."

See above. I enjoy the challenge of Adult mode. I like to repeat playing the boss UNTIL I BEAT HIM. Then I never want to see his mug again.

"You want to beat the boss the first time, then never have to face him again, because hey, you came out with one health, you obviously have it down."

Never said I had it down. But I do feel an accomplishment the first time I beat a boss, even with one health. Especially with one health. Can't say the same when I beat him again with only one health missing.

"Some games make you work for it, but that's obviously unfair to the less talented."

If a less talented person has to spend months to beat a game, it is unfair to them. They're probably not having fun, and they can't return the damn thing. I'm not talking about me here, as I have lots of fun with Joe, but the point still stands. This game needs a medium difficulty. I always play games in medium difficulty. I find easy too damn easy, and hard too damn hard.

[EZ_Random TM]

If a more talented person beats a game without even trying, it is unfair to them. They're probably not having fun, and they can't return the damn thing. The game needs a harder difficulty, because medium's too damn easy, and hard's just starting to get there. (Note: Not Joe, just 99% of the games out there.)

Your point is?
(Scrub.)

When danger threatens, me, Llabak and Tabbran's powers combine to form CAPTAIN PLANET!

[EZ_PandaJoe]

Well, if this person with godlike skills needs a challenge, he could always try posting without being condescending or massaging his overinflated ego. That should keep him occupied for a while.

[EZ_Dain Bornhald]

Hah.

My little bro refuses to buy(have my parents pay for) a game unless he can first get the strategy guide. If the game looks too difficult, even WITH the strategy guide, he won't bother. Out of all the systems and games that he's owned and played he has only beaten 4... with help.

I'm so ashamed.

[EZ_Pedric Cuf]

My point is that you're in the minority, and video games are now a booming business. Thus while it's not fair to you, you're not usually going to get a game difficult enough for you. And honestly, lots of games' hard difficulties seem to be plenty hard. And if it's not, you can always handicap yourself in someway, well, in most games, not all.

Also, please define scrub for me. Someone with no skill? I've not heard the insult before but you sure seem fond of calling me it.

[EZ_nekoken]

Most of the games I own have difficulty settings. If it is too easy, crank up the difficulty. If it is an rpg it is supposed to be about the story so difficulty shouldn't be the primary concern.

Narsse Nekoken

[Trolo]

Quote:And what's with memory cards and all that nonsense? Real video games need to have reset held while you turn it off with the other hand or else your games get erased and the cartridge goes buggy.

/agree

[EZ_Synrax]

Weee fun thread. Here's some rambling.

I despise Kefka. Not for his difficulty or lack of, but I hate his character design.

Multiple difficulty settings for more games would be great.

Putting the effort to kill optional harder bosses in RPGs should give more than an item reward. I want the storyline, character development or gaming world to be altered in some way, whether minor or major to show my impact for completing the side quest.

[Elerion]

Oh btw I hated it when FFVII forced me to go get KOTR or level up for 5 hours before I could even stand a chance at beating Seph. My first try I spent 90 minutes beating him down but his hp wouldnt budge, I just didnt have enough damage potential. That was hate.

[Greldek]

I agree, I too also find games not challenging enough anymore, even on the Hard/Difficult setting.

I think all games should should come with multiple difficulty settings, and actually make hard, hard for "expert" gamers, or "asshat" gamers, or whatever you want to call us, who find games to easy.. not hard for casual gamers.

sure give quicksaves for easy mode, take taht crap out for hard though
.::Phoenix Server Board::.
Edited by: Greldek at: 11/21/03 6:30 pm

[EZ_Hindraak]

One of the high points in RPG's is getting to be so uber that I destroy the final boss. It makes me feel like a god
I just hate when difficulty means higher HP/ Better Accuracy/ more damage. Sure it's more of a challenge, but it ends up just making a boring encounter more monotonous.

[EZ_Remfin]

If you want a challenging RPG, go for FF8...or even FFT's random battles. Both will get pretty challenging as you go higher level (enemies level up with you, and gain stats faster) Remfin
Level 65 Arcanist
Terris - Thule

[EZ_manofnox]

I still haven't beaten the final boss from Phantasy Star 4, and i got the game like 8 years ago.