Know your limits, and Abercrombie

[Krimzan]

In an ongoing effort to offend just about everyone, I bring you a rant for today...

First up...Abercrombie shirts. I am not sure what is funnier, the fact that a person would buy a shirt that says, "Property of Abercrombie and Finch," or the fact that they are actually expensive. I think it's a very interesting social statement that someone would buy and wear a shirt that proclames that either the shirt is property of Abercrombie and Finch, or that the person is. I think it's a bit more interesting if you think about what it means to say that the person is. In any case though...maybe I'm branded myself also with my Adidas shirts that have little teeny logos on them, but I think that the "Property of" just goes over the top.

The second is, KNOW YOUR LIMITS. Look, we all have limits, we are finite beings. There is a lot of @#%$ I can't do, some stuff I'll never be able to do; some stuff I will be able to do one day. At the risk of, once again, offending everyone...if you are deaf, please don't try to talk. We can't understand you. That's what the interpreter is in the front of the class for. We, the majority in the class, have to put up with the interpreter interjecting asking how to spell names and such, so please, @#%$ use that. It's been a long time since we understood, "Hwa hoorah rarowag rroogm," I think it was about the time that we started walking upright...USE SIGN LANGUAGE AND STOP TALKING LIKE A WOOKIE. If you need an interpreter because you can't hear, chances are you can't speak either. Also, please shut up. If you'll notice, we let the teacher lecture because that's what teachers do. We'd really prefer to go more than 5 minutes without your hand shooting up like an excited school girl on heroin. It's presumed that since you attempt to talk, you were once hearing to some degree...this means you know what it feels like when air moves over your vocal chords. It's really distracting to hear, "Ahh," "Ehhh," Hoaa," every other minute (no I'm not exadurating). Yes, we realize lungs have air in them...try expelling it silently.

Just to anticipate any responces...I don't give a flying @#%$ if these poor souls can't hear themselves growling like dreaming dogs. This is my class, I'm fine with the interpreter interrupting class all the time, but SHUT THE @#%$ UP. Get your vocal chords removed, you can't use them constructivly anyway. It's deaf people like you that piss off the rest of us to the point where we can't stand them in general. Ask any person at RIT who isn't 1st year (1st year, you still feel pitty) and they'll say, "God I hate deaf people." It's because you pull THIS KIND OF @#%$. You aren't any more important than anyone else in the class, so quit taking up all the time. There are 20 of us, and 1 of you, sit down, sign your questions instead of howling them, and SHUT UP.

[Gnmish Gearbinder]

Quote:USE SIGN LANGUAGE AND STOP TALKING LIKE A WOOKIE

For whatever reason this was terribly amusing to me.

I understand what you're saying Krimzan but you need to understand that these people also are not easily aware of the unconscious noises that they make other than the feeling of vibration in their throat.

I am fluent in ASL and have dealt with deaf people on a quite regular basis. Frequently, because of the way that our brains are wired, even when signing they still make noise and form out the words. It's like moving your lips when you read. It's really not something that's easy to forget or break.

Her taking up a large portion of your class however is not fair. Perhaps you could ask the dean or teacher to discuss the matter with her. I doubt they will though. Discrimination lawsuits can be a bitch and they'd probably just as soon not make ripples in the water. gnmish.gearbinder.ring.warden.sullon.zek
What's the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants if nobody ever asks to see 'em?

[Krimzan]

No, they won't do a damn thing. Hell, they'd probably kick me out if I complained in the nicest, politically correct way, but I've put up with this kind of @#%$ for going on 4 years now, and it just gets really old, really fast. When you're paying multiple thousands of dollars per class, having this kind of distraction in it is a real pisser. And when the shoe is on the other foot...the deaf folks won't lift a finger to help you understand when they have the majority. Five will go out onto an ice rink containing 40 people, and take over it making it unsafe for other people to skate on, and nobody complains too loud because they're deaf. One person is takes the majority of the time in a lecture of 20...and it's perfectly "ok." This is @#%$!

Quote:
Frequently, because of the way that our brains are wired, even when signing they still make noise and form out the words. It's like moving your lips when you read. It's really not something that's easy to forget or break.

I totally understand this, my gripe is that this particular person makes random noises when he is not reading or signing at ALL. Every so often it's just a random noise. Kind of like a dripping faucet after a while, only not at a uniform interval; it starts to grate on you big time. Edited by: Krimzan at: 12/5/03 2:40 pm

[EZ_Valrog]

Have you tried talking to him yourself?

[EZ_Jasminne]

i wonder what's more distracting - that or the kid in class who's got tourette's and says things like "f*ck sh*t b*tch" randomly all throughout class. he sat next behind me and made me jump everytime he'd go off 'cause it was loud. i soon learned to get to class early and grab a seat in front of the room.

[Dorla]

Quote:At the risk of, once again, offending everyone...if you are deaf, please don't try to talk.

Even though you'd think this rant is unique... I SWEAR we had this exact rant from someone, over a year ago... am I crazy?

[Stalk]

I guess my response was pretty much a given. But I think I've made what? Five? Personal attacks on Krimezan so far, so I'll give it a break today. In any case, I'll have to do this from my side.

Quote:if you are deaf, please don't try to talk. We can't understand you. That's what the interpreter is in the front of the class for.

Glass houses. Hearing people like to annoy me all @#%$ day with the new sign language they learned in ASL 101. Wonderful, you know the sign for dog? GOOD JOB. NOW GO THE @#%$ AWAY. Why the hell do you hearing people like to talk to me AFTER I told you I am deaf and that I can barely read lips? I won't magically start being able to read your lips because it's you. Use my interpreter if you want to talk to me, or at least take 2+ semesters of ASL.

Quote:We'd really prefer to go more than 5 minutes without your hand shooting up like an excited school girl on heroin.

What the hell does this have to do with deaf people? Hearing people do this to me every single class. I've heard the dumbest questions ever from hearing people. I'm sure deaf people have said equally dumb @#%$. Please, do explain what deafness has to do with asking questions?

Quote:any person at RIT who isn't 1st year (1st year, you still feel pitty) and they'll say, "God I hate deaf people."

Lucky you, you only have to deal with one or two deaf people per class annoying you. I have to deal with the whole @#%$ world annoying me. When I visit my sisters school, they treat me like I'm a new toy that was brought in. WOW, he's deaf! He can sign! SO COOL. When I go to Safeway, everyone's like, HEY! There's the deaf guy! Let's go say hi to him!

On another note, if you are working in a position that requires you to deal with customers, be it McDonalds or whatever, and a deaf guy comes up to you and asks you for a pen and paper to write what he wants to order/say down, GET THE @#%$ PEN AND PAPER. If you want to talk to me and it's important and I can't read your @#%$ lips, WRITE IT DOWN.

And if you seriously insist on me reading your lips, moving your head closer to me won't help me read your damn lips. It's always the people with terrible breath that try to get 6 inches from my face so I can read their lips.

God damn, I can rant all day long about hearing people. WITHOUT even going on about the advantages they have and how they waste it etc etc etc etc.

I'm sorry you had to deal with a few annoying deaf people for 4 years. But I have to deal with ALOT of annoying hearing people for the last 16 years and for the next 80 years of my life. So forgive me when I say:

Cry me a @#%$ river.

[Stalk]

Quote:Even though you'd think this rant is unique... I SWEAR we had this exact rant from someone, over a year ago... am I crazy?

Yeah, Krimezan chimed in, but I think it was someone else who started the topic. Or he started it, and someone added some fuel that pissed me off. I forgot. Mren, I think.

Besides, this is a different rant. But I do agree with the whole 'don't try to speak' thing for the most part. I don't try to speak unless I have to (no paper/pen, guestures don't work, or no interpreter.)

EDIT: Why the hell do I keep adding 'e' to Krimzan's name?

EDIT2: And if you havent yet, grow some balls and write a note explaining how you feel it is unfair that she holds up the whole class. Suggest to her writing down questions and e-mailing to the teacher would be nice. Or talking to the teacher during office hours. If you're scared of getting sued or whatever (....) just don't put your name on it, put it in a envlope, come in early and put it on the table. It will find it's way to her one way or another. Or give it to her yourself and pretend it's not from you.

If she diagrees for reasons that are not valid, well... might as well jump in the bandwagon and say: do her in the pooper. Edited by: Stalkyr Weaksoul at: 12/5/03 5:06 pm

[Krimzan]

I can sign though. I can fingerspell sorta fast too, and I never expect anyone to lipread. It may not be this way everwhere, but I swear the deaf community at RIT thinks the world owes them everything. I'm *not* making a huge blanket statement. Everyone feels this way, and the only reason I'm this pissed about it is it's my favorite class, I couldn't wait for break to be over to take this class.

And as far as writing a note, while I feel that way, telling someone not to ask a question...I just can't do that. I feel too strongly that everyone should be able to ask questions and learn. It could be the interpreter, they make mistakes all the time. It's not like I think the person is doing this on purpose...I'm just pissed off it's happening, and I am really, really frusturated that questions take a long time to answer because the kid will NOT use the interpreter.

[Stalk]

Quote:but I swear the deaf community at RIT thinks the world owes them everything.

I can't particularly fault you for saying this. While I haven't spent very much time with large groups of deaf people, it does give me a more objective perspective, so to speak. Having spent grades 5-9 in California School for the Deaf, I was able to see how most deaf people were raised.

This mentality I personally fault families for more than anything else. Doesn't make it right, I know. But many deaf kids are sent to *insert state here* school for the Deaf to live there, when their families find out they are deaf. Those schools teach deaf people more of the fundamental skills of living. The nature of the system more or less gets rid of everyone who's smart, or if they are lazy, keeps them from growing outside of it.

They are trained to 'not take @#%$ from hearing people' so to speak. But that's not a fair way of putting it. It's more of- to not be taken advantage of by hearing people. Over a long time, with very little socializing with hearing people, many deaf people develop a personality that follows the 'world owes me' mentality.

While I do believe that deaf people should get some priveleges that make them get similar opportunities as hearing people, when they are in groups, it goes a bit too far. Again, I personally blame the parents for this. In my experience, this kind of mentality tends to fade away over time after they spread out to find jobs and spend more time with hearing people.

Complicated answer to a simple observation, I know.

As for the second thing, I get what you're saying, I'm not saying you should ask her not to ask questions, but explain to her how using her voice and slowing down the class is blocking everyone's progress, and that she'd be doing everyone a favor by using sign language. I don't know anyone who would object to this. I know I wouldn't, almost all my deaf friends tend to show a lot of respect to hearing people.

[EZ_Pedric Cuf]

"Even though you'd think this rant is unique... I SWEAR we had this exact rant from someone, over a year ago... am I crazy?"

I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I was reading this.

[Nenjin]

I think it might have been me, ranting about this pampered kid who was had 40% hearing, co-worker of mine. /shrug "Nothing in this world truly comes for free."

[EZ_Mrens]

"I forgot. Mren, I think."

I seem to vaguley remeber this, though it sounds like something I might have done. Sorry

[EZ_Gyorg]

I just saw on the news the other night that Rochester is the second worst city in the US for sleeping.

I'm going to burn for bringing that up in this thread, aren't I.

[Krimzan]

Was it the airport and the train that do it? Or all the chemicals. We're in the top 10 for most dangerous air or something because of all the chemicals.

On the plus side, (seriously) we have beautiful clouds and sunsets because of all those chemicals. Honestly, I have been a lot of places and Rochester has some of the most beautiful.

[EZ_pulid]

Back to the first part of this rant...

If you've looked through the Abercrombie catologue, maybe you can help me. Count the number of non-white people in the 200+ page catologue. Wait for it. It's around 5 or 10.

[Nimmbull]

White people aren't cool. No matter how hard they try. Edited by: Nimmbull at: 12/6/03 9:02 am

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:I've heard the dumbest questions ever from hearing people.

Now now Stalk, we both know you didn't actually HEAR those questions.

[deuce]

wtf stalkyr can't read lips? is that why you just nod and agree with whatever I say? roxor on!

What if I get 5 inches from your face and over pronuctiate every word VERY VERY SLOWLY.

One of the benifits of hangin with a deaf brother is if we go to a public place I can just act deaf as well and not deal with the idiot "hearing" people muwahhaha.

You get no compasion from me krizman, Just get the @#$% over it and deal. If you're not willing to offer a suggestion or two then that student is just trying to get the same eductation he/she is paying for as you are. I'd say more but don't want to get myself going on this subject.

And stalkyr thinks the world owes him, but he just knows he has to pay me back for being his brother

[deuce]

btw I pwn at finger spelling. Except when my fingers get tied and stalkyr looks at me with a wtf expresion on his face.

H a v e y o u s e e e n t h h h e n g e w g a s m n e c o o m i n g o u t I t h h i i n m k i r o x o r<insert ? face expresion >

stalkyr uses this face alot when that happen

[Trolo]

Hahahaha Deuce.

[EZ_jolla]

"Even though you'd think this rant is unique... I SWEAR we had this exact rant from someone, over a year ago... am I crazy?"

Someone ranted about deaf people in the dorms having loud sex. Jolla Petbane, level 65 Enchanter
Craftie Snowdog, level 57 Rogue

[Lilum]

Yep that was the one. It was a funny funny rant too.

The only problem I have with deaf people is when two of them are arguing in sign language while driving down the highway at 75mph. I have seen this twice in cars either in front of me or beside me. The driver looks over to see what the passenger is saying, then he takes his hands from the wheel to respond. Fun ensues when the vehicle has bad allignment.

[Krimzan]

Oh, that one was mine also I think. *blush*

[Llabak Tharr]

duece rocks my world.

that is all.

[Stalk]

Quote:Now now Stalk, we both know you didn't actually HEAR those questions.

/bonk

Quote:but he just knows he has to pay me back for being his brother

Yeah, I'll mail you back your limbs after I'm done taking them off. How nice I am!

Quote:stalkyr looks at me with a wtf

Yeah, I've certainly seen some of the most interesting stuff from tired fingers

Quote:Hahahaha Deuce.
duece rocks my world.

Stop talking. He's not funny, nor does he rock.

Driving while talking is fun. It's like a sport. Driving home is always boring, so it's a good way to train my eye/hand coordination by avoiding the cars around me. It's like that game where you throw a ball in the air, close your eyes, wait a few seconds, open it, and try to catch it before it lands. So. Fun.

Until someone gets their, er, head poked out.
Kerayu, Mithra 15 Thief / 15 Monk of Phoenix.

[deuce]

Driving with a deaf person is scary. When stalkyr drives and we're trying to talk in the car it goes like this.

Deuce> H A V E U Y O C H K E C C K E D O U T T F I N AL FA NT A SY 1 2 YET <Question face>

Stalkyr> Wtf, there is no final fantasy 12 yet what are you talking about?

Deuce> D U U D EE I S A W W I T C O O E O U T A W E E K A G O

Stalkyr> Deuce, thats final fantasy x2 not 12 that came out 12 isn't going to come out for a year or so

Deuce>D U DE I R EA D IT X = 10 +2 =12 T H A T M E ANS F I A N A L F A T A S Y 12

Stalkyr> No it means Finaly fantasy 10: 2. Like the second final fanstasy 10

Deuce> @#$*@$^#&*^$@_( BRAKE STALKYR BRAKE OMG MY LIFE IS FLASHING BEFORE ME DUDE BRAKE MORE

Resume conversation and repeat.

[EZ_Swipey]

???

They make it illegal to listen to music on headphones while driving (since they headphone wearing music listener cant hear things like emergency sirens), but allow deaf people to drive?

Where is the logic in that?

[EZ_Dahne]

Err, what's RIT?

*ducks*
Moogle Charm

Prettier than John Romero.

[EZ_Jayan Thornfoot]

Rochester Institue of Technology which has a large Deaf population.

[Stalk]

Quote:They make it illegal to listen to music on headphones while driving (since they headphone wearing music listener cant hear things like emergency sirens), but allow deaf people to drive?

I hope you were joking. If not, I'll save Gyorg some time and *personal attack removed*.

Try not to speak of things which you do not know, next time.

[EZ_jolla]

Quote:Quote:They make it illegal to listen to music on headphones while driving (since they headphone wearing music listener cant hear things like emergency sirens), but allow deaf people t

I hope you were joking. If not, I'll save Gyorg some time and *personal attack removed*.

Try not to speak of things which you do not know, next time.[/quote] It's a valid question. If I (a hearing person) can't drive unable to hear, why can a deaf person?

[deuce]

Quote:If I (a hearing person) can't drive unable to hear, why can a deaf person?

First of all that isn't a law to my knowledge, or using a headset could be classified as that. Second off its do to headphones being a distraction. You're more inclined to be paying attention to whats going on verbally then the road, kinda like them trying to outlaw talking on cell phones while driving (which is a damn good idea if you ask me)

As long as a deaf person can pass a standard driving test, just like everyone else takes he's entitled to a licence. If his handicap poses to much of a, handicap that he can't pass his test or has a excess of ancidents and or not following road laws then it can be taken away just the same. Being deaf is alot different then putting headphones to blast music, then again if you want music just turn the radio on in the car jeez.

[EZ_Swipey]

Georgia General Assembly
Unannotated Code

"40-6-250.
No person shall operate a motor vehicle while wearing a headset or headphone which would impair such person´s ability to hear, nor shall any person while operating a motor vehicle wear any device which impairs such person´s vision; provided, however, that a person may wear a headset or headphone for communication purposes only while operating a motorcycle. This Code section shall not apply to hearing aids or instruments for the improvement of defective human hearing, eyeglasses, or sunglasses. This Code section shall not apply to any law enforcement officer or firefighter equipped with any communications device necessary in the performance of such person´s duties."

And here is the link, in case you think I am lying about this.

www.legis.state.ga.us/leg...6-250.html



So...

1) It is a law (at least in Georgia...if you want to spend several hours searching the other 49 state's law codes, you can.. but I didnt want to)

and

2) If it were about distraction, then it would seem like they would
a) not define the type of headset or headphone as one that would impair the person's ability to hear, but would rather define the infraction in terms of distraction.

and

b) they would also disallow the playing of distracting noises on one's radio, CD player, or any other device. Indeed, they would have to make it an offence for anyone in the car to even talk while the vehicle was in motion.




Now...initially my post above was meant to make fun of the stupid lawmakers for making such a headphone law. Hearing, while occasionally handy when driving, is hardly essential. Emergency vehicles have flashing lights too, after all, and one should never pull out into traffic just because one doesnt -hear- another vehicle coming.

But since your manner offends me* I will go the other way on this. Why the ^%$& should YOU be allowed to drive while unable to hear while I cant?


*"Try not to speak of things which you do not know" = "you're an ignorant boob" = insulting attack = offended Swipey. I wont even bother with the *personal attack removed* As long as we're dishing out advice to one another... try verifying someone's intent, or ignorance, for that matter, before attacking them based on it. You end up with fewer perceiving you as some overly aggressive *personal insult removed* with a chip on his shoulder that way.

[Kaielen]

Nimm you racist bastard.


I knew you hated me because I'm white.

[Stalk]

Quote:Why the ^%$& should YOU be allowed to drive while unable to hear while I cant?

Since when can't you drive unable to hear?

EDIT: Thought I should add, what you said personally offended me. Whether or not you meant it, your comments implied that I should not be able to drive. It's mentalities like that, which will cause me to lose my ability to drive, thanks to the ignorant masses.

Not only that, you seem to have meant it the other way around. Which is why I added the, "I hope you are joking" and since you were being sarcastic, and did not actually think I should not be able to drive, it is not an attack intended for you. Simply put, you imply it is okay to offend me, but not you? Double standards.

Nevertheless, it seems you were only trying to be politically correct in your first post, as you revealed your ignorance by asking me the above question in all seriousness. Disregarding the headest law made by stupid lawyers (of which I agree on, it is stupid), there are hundreds of reasons. I will say this, which I mentioned to my brother yesterday, though.

The only time it is okay to remove deaf people from driving is when there are no radios in the car, no cell phones, no talking allowed while the hearing person is driving, no music, no anything. If it might in any form visually or audiologically impair the hearing persons driving, it is not allowed. And this must be enforced to the fullest extent. With fines punishable by several years of license being revoked.

Then, and only then, I will think it is okay. Anytime earlier is just ignorance and hypocrisy. But then again, I suppose there IS an advantage to stupid lawyers. Those who can make it happen that deaf people can't drive are highly unlikely to do anything about it due to fear of being politically incorrect. And by the way, I hadn't even gone into the other 15 reasons I can name, the post would get too long.

I will tell you this: if someone had asked me, in all seriousness, why it is deaf people can drive, I would have gladly explained it. However you said it in a sense that could easily be translated as a prejudiced judgement based on lack of information. Of course I'm going to be pissed when someone feels it is okay to take away my license merely because I am deaf. Edited by: Stalkyr Weaksoul at: 12/9/03 7:33 am

[Kaielen]

Inability to hear warning sirens, horns, etc.

[deuce]

egh I already answered the difference between deaf and being able to wear a headset. I'll requote myself except for where I didn't know wether it was law or not.

Quote:Second off its do to headphones being a distraction. You're more inclined to be paying attention to whats going on verbally then the road, kinda like them trying to outlaw talking on cell phones while driving (which is a damn good idea if you ask me)

Being deaf isn't a distraction to your driving, but listening to whatevers going on in those headphones are, aparently they made exceptions for headsets and cell phones. if you've ever had one of your senses removed you'll realize you'll tend to use your other senses a litte more. Like stalkyrs visual abilitys and his sense of touch he can hear/feel vibrations more easily. It takes time to do that though, so putting a headset would still be a distraction without the added ability.

If the dmv, state law enforcement ever felt that not being able to hear was effecting stalkyrs, or any other person ability to drive they would take his licence away. Just like if you had to wear glasses and never did. Drivings a privlage not a right.

And stalkyrs hot headed because he has to deal with these absurd questions every day. You'd get tired of it too. You'd see me go off if I heard a joke about being tall, or ranting on a tall person. I hear about my height every day at least once a day usually more, so much that when I hear wow you're tall, I go and automaticaly say, Yes I played sports, but had knee and foot problems, yes I have to duck under some doors, no I don't snow ski using just my shoes, thanks goodbye.

btw can you teach me the sign to ignorant stalk Edited by: deuce at: 12/9/03 7:40 am

[Stalk]

Quote:Inability to hear warning sirens, horns, etc.

Firstly, I added a hell of a lot in my last post so read it if you missed it.

Second, it's not exactly hard to miss sirens.

In my 5 years of driving, I only got in a accident once. That was when I was 16, and had nothing to do with my deafness. And everything to do with being young and stupid.

I have never once been put in a situation where the ability to hear would be advantageous to me, while driving. EVEN if I do not see police sirens, it is pretty obvious when it is coming, because people are pulling out of the way. There are so many visual things to help me that it's not funny. As long as you pay attention, driving while unable to hear is pretty damn easy.

The key word is, as long as you pay attention. The biggest arguments I've seen for outlawing cell phones and stuff, regardless of how they wrote the law, is that it is a distraction and causes accidents. In other words, if they were unable to hear, they would not have gotten in accidents because they did not get distracted!

[Jhani Vandolay]

Being deaf may not be a distraction to your driving in itself, but what about

"Driving while talking is fun. It's like a sport. Driving home is always boring, so it's a good way to train my eye/hand coordination by avoiding the cars around me. It's like that game where you throw a ball in the air, close your eyes, wait a few seconds, open it, and try to catch it before it lands. So. Fun."

As another driver who doesn't want to be hit by some ignorant asshat playing games in his car, I think this attitude/behavior is ridiculous, and if you want a reason why you* shouldn't drive, this is it.


*You as in you, not you as in deaf people. Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni

[Stalk]

And I was serious when I said that, how?

I don't actually do that. I was joking towards my brother.

[Nenjin]

In Nebraska, you can and will be pulled over for having your stereo too loud, because the law says it's a driving impairment that you purposefully took on yourself, kinda of like drinking. Get in an acciedent, and it can be proven you were blasting your stereo, almost regardless of what the situation is, you could be at fault because you were not 100% aware of the road around you.

It is also illegal to wear headphones while driving for the exact same reason. I'm not sure if Nebraska applies this logic to people who are 50% or more hearing impaired, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they did.

[Jhani Vandolay]

And that was obvious to anyone else, how?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but there's nothing in that statement implying it's an inside joke, don't expect people to assume something stated isn't true.

[Stalk]

Quote:And that was obvious to anyone else, how?


Even if it is an inside joke, I think you are the only one who took it seriously. Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there a point to what you're telling me? I assume there is. I mean, if I started taking you that seriously, I'd have one hell of a image of you.

[EZ_Swipey]

"Since when can't you drive unable to hear?"

Um... since I can be ticketed for being a hearing person who wears headphones that impair my ability to hear? (in Georgia)



"Thought I should add, what you said personally offended me."

Yes. obviously. As I said in my note after the asterisk... you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder concerning (presumably) hearing people who are not either personal friends or family members who comment on anything deafness related. You seem to assume automatically that they are out to get you or otherwise oppress you, and to put the maximum negative spin on anything they say, rather than asking for clarification. Assuming people are your enemies and treating them as such from the get-go will make many of them your enemies.


"Whether or not you meant it, your comments implied that I should not be able to drive."

Negative spin. The comment was ambiguous, which, as you said, is why you added "I hope you are joking." Yet, instead of asking for clarification on my intent (even though you were unsure of it) you jumped right to the attack.



"It's mentalities like that, which will cause me to lose my ability to drive, thanks to the ignorant masses."

Do be careful here... you're skating close to the edge on calling -everyone- who isnt you (or your personal friends/family members) ignorant sheep.



"Simply put, you imply it is okay to offend me, but not you? Double standards."

Again with the persecution complex. No, it isnt OK to offend you. Nor is it OK to offend me. A person CAN take offence where none is intended, though, and two wrongs dont make a right, as I recall. (though three lefts do)



"Nevertheless, it seems you were only trying to be politically correct in your first post..."

Nothing of the sort. Though I will ask... when you say "politically correct" are you again implying that I am part of some unthinking/ignorant sheep like mass, in contrast to you (and a few select others) who are bold, thoughtful, and "in the know?" If so... I take offence again.



"...as you revealed your ignorance by asking me the above question in all seriousness."

Ah, here is the ignorance charge yet again. You cant seem to get away from that one. As to the 'why' of it, perhaps I was trying to please you by asking the question, since it seems to be what you expect of 'the ignorant, sheeplike PC masses'... and everyone, deep down, likes getting what they expect. Or perhaps I asked to see how you would respond...If you would again jump to the attack, or if you would actually stop, think, and answer the question.



"Disregarding the headest law made by stupid lawyers (of which I agree on, it is stupid), there are hundreds of reasons."

Well, there's the answer!
Swipey : "Why should you be able to drive while unable to hear while I cant?"
Stalkyr : "The disparity is unsupportable. We should be treated equally under the law and either both of us should be allowed to drive while unable to hear, or neither of us should. I am of the opinion that hearing is not essential (or even necessary) for safe driving, and so believe that the former should be the case, and thus that the Georgia law, and any similar laws in other states, are stupid."



"The only time it is okay to remove deaf people from driving is when there are no radios in the car, no cell phones, no talking allowed while the hearing person is driving, no music, no anything. If it might in any form visually or audiologically impair the hearing persons driving, it is not allowed. And this must be enforced to the fullest extent. With fines punishable by several years of license being revoked."

I disagree. I would say that it would be OK to bar deaf people from driving if statistics prove that they are, as a class, involved in -significantly- more accidents than some other definable group that IS allowed to drive (say... octogenarians or teenagers) Your experience, and the fact that deaf people DO drive and DONT have a horrible reputation for wrecklessness, would lead me to believe that barring them is not OK.



"I will tell you this: if someone had asked me, in all seriousness, why it is deaf people can drive, I would have gladly explained it."

I'm sorry, but our brief interaction here leads me to disbelieve this. It seems more likely that you would (at best) cautiously and answer the question, and more likely answer it in a defensive/aggressive tone, if at all.


"However you said it in a sense that could easily be translated as a prejudiced judgement based on lack of information."

By your own admission, it could also have been translated differently. You CHOSE to translate it as prejudiced, judgemental, and ignorant, which seems to be the stereotype you hold of non-hearing impaired persons who you are not personally acquainted with.



"Of course I'm going to be pissed when someone feels it is okay to take away my license merely because I am deaf."

Yeah, if that is what someone feels, you have every right to get pissed. Jumping to the conclusion that that is how someone else feels and getting pissed may still be your right, but it is no longer righteous.

[Meddik]

< sarcasm>I'd say that deaf people in the car alone are probably better drivers, since they don't have to fiddle with the radio knobs.


Of course, with passengers Its a bit more dangerous, especially if they lipread and try to carry on conversations with them.

One of my sister's friends in HS was deaf, and she was a fine driver solo, but put a friend in the car with her and I was horrified to ride with her. Of course, that has more to do with her airheadedness than her deafness.

[deuce]

Quote:I don't actually do that. I was joking towards my brother.

Aye inside family joke. Kinda like you're dangerous on the cell phone. Deaf people should use there mobile devices while driving.

And stalkyr if you're not already replying, its time to drop the subject. You know what happens if you further try to fight this one, glip might show up!

I already stated the difference between head phones and being deaf. Stalkyrs lived with this subject for a long time and having two deaf siblings i've dealt with this subject way to many times. If you can't understand what the difference between not hearing, and being distracted then its not worth arguing anymore. I'm not posting on this subject anymore.

[Stalk]

Quote:Um... since I can be ticketed for being a hearing person who wears headphones that impair my ability to hear? (in Georgia)

Then turn on the radio. Now your hearing is impaired again.

I hardly think hearing people are out to get me. I have plenty of friends with hearing people. But the fact remains that the majority of people have little, if any, experience with deaf people. When I say things like, do not speak of things which you do not know, I am not saying that the person is a sheep when it comes to everything.

Just that, on issues related to deafness, I have the "upper hand" so to speak. My experiences as a deaf person, and my knowledge on issues that affect me directly. I do not expect hearing people to care at all about the deaf population, Deaf eductation should not be taught in schools in the way black awareness is or whatever that is. I forget which it was.

But on the same token, that would be the reason I don't particularly like it when things like this happen. I know that, unless the person in specific did a lot of research on this subject, it is more or less an uneducated opinion. For a change, I am not implying uneducated in an insulting way, there is NO reason at all for you to educate yourself in deafness and how it affects driving. To say it in a extreme analogy, it would be something akin to me saying Rap music sucks, and everyone who listens to Rap are morons.

Perhaps I should have asked for clarification of intent, but I have a short fuse, and I am fully aware of that. I am, self admitted, very moody when it comes to my deafness.

When I say ignorant, I don't mean as in they are ignorant persons. But rather, most people are ignorant about deaf issues. And this is, without any doubt, 100% true. Why would they be knowledgable about deaf issues? Why would I be knowledgable about music? It doesn't affect me. I am ignorant when it comes to music. Should I go educate myself about it? No, not really.

It is not unthinking. If you had knowledge about this subject, you wouldn't even be arguing with me in the first place. The fact you are trying to find out about this means you are not unthinking. But it does mean you don't know anything about the subject in the first place. Again, why should you? There is no reason at all for you to.

I have not looked at it recently, but the deaf accident rates are no higher than the hearing accident rates. Unless there's been a large change recently, which is unlikely, that is most likely still true.

[Kaielen]

WHU WASHH IUH OO GAIYS SHED AGEEN!?

Edit: Edited to be even more offensive than before. Edited by: Kaielen at: 12/9/03 11:09 am

[EZ_Ciba]

Damn, I can't wear those Bose noise reducing headphones to cut down on the passenger-seat nagging in Georgia!?

When I read the first headphone related post, I thought he was getting at the law being stupid and a double standard. I see headphones as no different from playing my music loud. I didn't actually interpret it to mean "deaf people shouldn't be allowed to drive," but apparently all you knee-jerk folks did!

[Llabak Tharr]

Well since we're all talking about ignorance here, Stalkyr, I think you're probably ignorant of the differences between having headphones playing music and having the radio on, or a cell phone, or talking in the car.

Headphones can be such that they completely remove your ability to hear anything that's not coming through the headphones. So you couldn't hear sirens, you couldn't hear the car honking it's horn, you couldn't hear the child behind your car shout, "eek" as you're backing into her in your blind spot. Headphones aren't banned because they're a distraction, they're banned because they can make it impossible to hear what's going on around you. They're no more of a distraction than the car radio.

I use my hearing while driving all the time. I hear sirens well before I see the lights, especially when driving in a city with lots of buildings that block views around corners. I hear car horns when I'm pulling out of a parking space and can't see through the door of the SUV parked next to me to see that there's a car that's driving down the aisle. When I come to an intersection that has a hedge or shrub near the corner and I can't see incoming traffic especially well, again, I can hear a car horn that tells me someone is coming.

Do I think deaf people should be allowed to drive? I have no opinion on the matter, not having seen any evidence to support one view or the other. My priors suggest to me that all else equal, a deaf driver will certainly be a worse driver than a non-deaf driver who has no distractions in the car (such as cell phone, etc.). Add in incremental distractions, and I could envision a deaf driver having an advantage over a driver who is talking on a cell phone and not paying attention to the road. Where the cutoff is, I don't know.

Now I would argue that someone talking on a cell phone and not paying attention shouldn't be driving either. Does that mean someone who may drive better than a @#%$ driver should necesarily drive? Certainly not. One could make the case that neither should drive. In fact, there are some places that have banned cell phone use while driving.

Do I think you should have the right to drive? I have no idea. I've never seen you drive, never driven with you, and have no idea what kind of driver you are. Does that mean you should have the 'right' to drive? Of course not. There are many people who have never had accidents, but are @#%$ drivers and are accidents waiting to happen. If we could identify them correctly and forbid them from driving, roads would be safer places.

What I do know is that if it can be shown that deaf people have more accidents relative to non-deaf people in similar categories, whatever persecution you feel is meaningless to me. In my experience, hearing helps a lot while driving, and if your not being able to hear means that you're more likely to kill someone because you can't hear them, you as a category should not drive, even if you as an individual think that you're a pretty good driver.

[Stalk]

I am fully aware of the difference between Radio, cell phone, etc and headphones, Llabak.

However, what hearing people can't seem to understand is that, when one loses one of their senses, the other four do not stay the same. One pays more attention to their senses. There have been many times where I was feeling something, but when I asked others if they hear anything, they don't. They dont feel anything either. Then I eventually find out it was some guy tapping his pencil on the table 20 feet away from me.

Lacking a sense, one pays more attention to the other four. It's like that for all my friends, so it can't be just my delusion. I could not offer any documented proof of this, though, as I never tried to look for it.

In that sense, where you hear the sirens before you see it, I see it as you hear it. Obviously there are exceptions, like when it is coming from around the block and I am nowhere near it.

However, I am not so ignorant that I wouldn't know that people won't hear a 'eek' coming from behind them. I do know that unless someone said it really loud, even a hearing driver won't hear it. Not only that, I would assume that's what the rear view mirror and looking over your shoulder is for. I hope hearing people do that too

I wouldn't argue at all that signing while driving should not be allowed, in the same way cell phones and headsets are not allowed, though. I'd just like to clarify that. Having driven with hearing people all my life, I can see that they do not do anything that I would not have seen. Hard data nonwithstanding, as I really do not feel like dragging this debate out more, my personal experiences with hearing drivers and deaf drivers allow me to know for certain that, all things equal, a deaf driver will drive almost, and I do mean so close that a situation where hearing would have been advantageous to a deaf person is one in a trillion, as good as a hearing person.

(by the way, I might have not made sense at many parts, or clear enough, so sorry about it. I had a long day at work and brain muddled.)

[Jhani Vandolay]

And here I thought "I didn't do it." "Ok, I didn't know." would have been the end of it. How silly and simple that would have been.

"Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there a point to what you're telling me? I assume there is."

A point to me telling you if you say "Hey this is what I do" with no context that people might not simply presume you're sharing an inside joke with one single other person who knows what you're talking about? No, no point at all..

"I mean, if I started taking you that seriously, I'd have one hell of a image of you."

From what people say while drunk at Fan Faires, you'd have plenty of company.

I honestly don't know why you're being so pissy at this point, you said you didn't do it, I said ok but you can't expect people to know without any sort of context, and you're confused by that? Whatever.

Feel free to call me on this if you ever see me claim to do something assinine/dangerous with no indications otherwise. I have a feeling I won't be hearing from you for a very long time...

[EZ_Dahne]

Quote:you couldn't hear the child behind your car shout, "eek" as you're backing into her in your blind spot.

If this made me laugh, does that mean I'm going to hell?

[Stalk]

(This message was left blank) Edited by: Stalkyr Weaksoul at: 12/10/03 7:14 am

[Jhani Vandolay]

I move for a motion of "Cool, then."

[Stalk]

I just took a shower, and in a sudden stroke of extraordinary genius, I figured out what was going on.

I was assuming what you said had something to do with the driving, or other arguments. That's why I was confused. I wasnt pissed at you misinterpreting what I said. But I did word my response badly, though.

So, uh. Yeah, people misinterpret things. You did. No big deal at all.

Cool, then.