Top 10 Suggestions

[decius1]

New thread, post them here :)

Note that "It's fine as it is" is an acceptable thing to post :)

[Castina Solomnus]

Fix nerves of steel (still). List it 3 times or something.

[Sixfinger]

How about getting some attention past "currently under review"? I seem to remember prior to DoDh release there was a lot of replies that indicated that the next expansion would address our top ten. Well, we are well into the next expansion and im not seeing any movement.

As a rog playing at the sharp end of the game, there are a few things that i would love to see addressed, but these are more specific to the game ingeneral than to rogs.

Prathun over on mobhunter (http://www.mobhunter.com/001443.html) said he is trying to ensure that every class has a roll on scripts, so what is the roll for a rog when we are unable to gain ass-access throughout the fight? We become a ranja without tripple attack. Rogs have become too dependant upon BS to sustain DPS.

Poisons should be removed from the game IMO, as they are never going to get to a position where they are usefull in most situations. I personally use ornate pants poisons when i want aggro. But past that, farming greens for hours is not something im going todo to make something that is most likely going to be resisted against the mobs I play with on raids.

Love SoS, worship Escape and want Stealthy Getaway to mother my children. These are the things that make rogs unique, and soo envied by other classes. I would love to see a grp SoS disc (lev 70 spell-arc missions ect), hell make it cost 2k endurance, last 3 mins and have a 10-min reuse timer. I would love to be able to step into a grp, and be able to take them where i'm able to go. I think the number and frequency of mobs that see SoS needs to be looked at, a mob that is under my level, should NEVER be able to see me. But a mob that is above my level should have a chance.

The shadow-man idea I LOVE, but I can see why it would have balance issues in PvP. One idea that pops to mind is make it only work while we are not wielding weapons, and have it drop when we turn on attack. My perception of shadow-men is a voyeur, watching someone/something while being un-detected. But the moment we prepare for attack we become seen.

6finger Discount
Assmuncher of <Wraith>
Quellious
Aussies do it down-under!

[Pushup]

If they add a group SoS then there's going to be a dramatic increase in see sos mobs, besides they have sos for all other classes, it's called die and let me drag you.

I'd like to see some more timer reductions on escape personally

There's been enough of these suggestion posts that it should be known what the majority of this community wants, no matter how many new threads are made they're going to have the same problems with the class posted.

[Cariana The Assassin]

Fix nerves of steel (still). List it 3 times or something.

*Agree* Also would love trip attack since we deserve it and monks have it...

[Xulok]

Two Words: Questable Gnome Mask

[tsdiesel]

Prathun over on mobhunter (http://www.mobhunter.com/001443.html) said he is trying to ensure that every class has a roll on scripts, so what is the roll for a rog when we are unable to gain ass-access throughout the fight? We become a ranja without tripple attack. Rogs have become too dependant upon BS to sustain DPS.

I would have to agree. Why do the frontal stabs only allow a single stab? It makes no sense! In the current setup, when we are not able to access a mob's back we, quite simply, suck.

Our main hand weapons are subpar compared to other classes main handers. Backstab is our greatest ally, but also our worst enemy because the base damage of piercers is forced to be so low to keep us in line. The coding is outdated and it is only going to get worse as the game progresses. We will become more and more dependant on backstab damage and less and less dependant on mainhand piercing damage.

Combine this with fewer corners to pin mobs and more complex scripts and our usefulness will continue to wane, compared to other classes.

[Kojeero]

Two Words: Questable Gnome Mask


two more (and a symbol): Counting > you...
j/k

agree tho, want more illusion masks more available (brd rog only for the love of god tho, all/all is a slap in the face) and i'd love to see them be quests - quests like the Burning Rapier tho, where 90%+ of the community can get them, not on raid items please.

trip attack would be nice as well, considering the lack of corners to fight in it's not asking too much.

also think that unlinking our disc timers wouldn't be THAT big a boost to overall DPS - we are still limited by the skill timer and our endurance. and it would increase our possible burst DPS.

[Talcon Disavowed]

Well I will go off the norm because I have been told my AA selection is crazy at times ... I got Anatomy III first....reason is I am about sick and tired of the endless grinds I do to raise my AA's so woe the lower level mob that gets pulled to camp (Don't waste my time) ... this has also GREATLY increased my usefulness in DoN tasks....Believe me or not it IS useful...however it needs to be raised even further to allow for mobs of even higher levels to be killed instantly... Trust me ... it is worth it. And not too over powering ...considering we are assassins and you hafta grind out millions of mobs over and over and over once your 70 and just AA collecting....

Poisons are retarded as of now ....I still make them tho ....I crank out some Bites of the Shissar for raids and have mixed my Virtulent Venom AA's ...but I still have no poison that causes enough damage to be worth the trouble of making them in the first place. Two possible solutions ...one: make poisons stronger and easier to make (with something that summons a really GOOD poison that is questable similar to the Stanos legs) OR make poisons that are so hard to make that they will be not be created like crazy ... BUT >> the effect has to be earth shattering... this 10 subcombines for 150 DD is kinda weak and insulting to a Master Poisoncrafter ... I am thinking more like a 1 min poison that does 5k damage over time ... What would it really unbalance ... I see wizards cranking out crits like that over and over .... besides for a rogue its a class defining skill that has basically been forgotten since OoW. Its really annoying to play my rogue a little differently then the norm and get totally screwed on the last three expansions ....anyone else notice not a single poison recipe from last expansions ?
Also I think that the Mug AA (something that increased pickpocket or a higher form of ) that was speculated about needs to be put in ...I find myself raiding alot and not farming or grinding as often with much cash or loot worth much ....and with clerics STILL thinking they need to ML I don't end up with much cash from zones like RRS and MPG ....so something needs to happen to allow me to pickpocket from higher level mobs ... its just annoying to be a MASTER thief and can't steal anything ... (some of us do play our charaters not just think of them as #'s of DPS)

And lastly Steathly Getaway while a neat little toy is pretty damn worthless IMO ...if I have already blown escape and need a ride out this AA is crap it needs to be instant with NO requirements.... yes I said it TWO agro removing AA's ....course one you can't use all the time ...especially on some raids so I don't see how thats over powering w/the reset timers on them.

LASTLY if I don't see a new item that summons time quality throwing items soon I am going to go play Star Wars.... this is just fricken stupid how long I have had to wait to kill Rallos Zek ....countless times to see just 3 of our monks get the pouch .... so I have to wait for the other 10 to get it before our guild will allow someone other then a monk to loot... Javelins are nice but they are annoying to make .... making Elm bow staves stackable might take away some of the headache...but still ... what gives ??

[Hanss Dampf]

like i said in last thread before DoDh already, we really should get piercing mastery.

1. appraisal was NOT a freebie. we got it instant of 2h mastery all other melee (cept bards) got.

2. it would us make less depends on BS w/o overpowering BS any more (what higher base damage piercers would do..).

3. its generate less aggro than tripple attack.

4. piercer for offhand would than finally again a vial alternate (if the skill would be strong enough to "fix" the gap between piercers and 1hs / 1hb ratio, damagewise).

5. we could still use the epic in offhand with piercing mastery if once comes a better mainhand, instead of swap it in for every disc...



piercing mastery is the only REAL big stuff i want so get, cause it would fix x diffrent problems we have at once (IF strong enough, not if it gives just 0.4% more pierce damage...).

yeah, and nerfes of steel should finally get fixed.

move twisted chance to deadeye timer.

thats the most important stuff imo.

[Axian 007]

I am beginning to agree with 6finger.... Poisons should be removed if they are not going to fix them. And I am losing faith that they even care at this point.

Fix Nerves of Steel - Or get rid of it all together and refund the poor rogues who spent the AAs on this piece of garbage.

Lower the reuse timer on Esacpe to ~15 mins.... OR Remove the retarded "must be hidden for 3 sec" rule on Stealthy Getaway. Please

MORE DPS - At the innate level...
1) something we can hotkey and use all the time and NOT cost Endurance like monk/warrior kick... why can a warrior in full plate armor kick and a rogue in chain-mail cannot? (Even if it's just a chance to interrupt a spell cast)
2) Exception Backstab - Random chance to perform a backstab with 2x or 2.5x damage (totally passive ability - no endurance cost)
3) Triple Attack!
4) That Piercing master sounds REALLY APPEALING =)
5) Move Twisted Chance to Deadeye Timer!

-Ax

[Hanss Dampf]

LASTLY if I don't see a new item that summons time quality throwing items soon I am going to go play Star Wars.... this is just fricken stupid how long I have had to wait to kill Rallos Zek ....countless times to see just 3 of our monks get the pouch .... so I have to wait for the other 10 to get it before our guild will allow someone other then a monk to loot... Javelins are nice but they are annoying to make .... making Elm bow staves stackable might take away some of the headache...but still ... what gives ??


its fixed since DoDh.

15/15 drops in SRF (random trash)
23/15 drops in DSK (random trash)
23/15 javelins. pita to make, yes. but works till a DSK pouch drops.
30/15 time
37/15 drops in demiplane

[Ablazze]

From the makers of Apprasial & Rogue mezz,Sony is proud to bring you the *top ten list* These lists will stall any real improvements in there respective class`s for years, with a simple *under review* or *been evaluated* you can put off having to do any work for months at a time..

seriously fix nerves so it does what it says on the can already & fix the darn *can not see target* crap when the mobs right infront of you..

Blazey...

[tsdiesel]

its fixed since DoDh.

15/15 drops in SRF (random trash)
23/15 drops in DSK (random trash)
23/15 javelins. pita to make, yes. but works till a DSK pouch drops.
30/15 time
37/15 drops in demiplane

I'm sorry but that is not exactly FIXED... Only a small minority have access to demiplane and rogues at all other stages of the game are forced to gather friends to farm Time or, if they still raid Time, hope that the monks aren't raiding that particular night, or you won't be getting a pouch.

30/15 is much better than 23/15, no matter how you slice it. Why is it such a big no-no to have greater damage in this area? These items aren't great DPS, we will only use them for pulling or when mobs have AE rampage/horrible close range AE's.

[Pushup]

23/15 is good when you consider all you have to do is farm crappy mobs instead of getting a raid to push through to rz in time to get pouch, that's risk vs. reward hard at work.

[tsdiesel]

Farming Time is not "risky" for any GoD-DoN guild that is not able to do Demiplane yet.

[Pushup]

it still the point that you'd need at least 18 opposed to 2boxing with a healer, I never said time was hard, time vs. reward if that's more suitable.

[tsdiesel]

Regardless, I do not agree. If bazaar geared players can make/use 23/15 then the DSK drop should have been superior to that -- closer to 30/15.

[Jecour]

Only a small minority have access to demiplane and rogues at all other stages of the game are forced to gather friends to farm Time

That's a casual vs. raid issue and you make the choice of how you want to play; you're not "forced" to do anything. Throwing has been fixed. If you are looking for a legitimate argument, you might consider throwing % mods (or Sharpshooting mods) on more modern gear that doesn't necessarily have to be swapped out--but it is a smaller argument that doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things.

Range DPS:
dmg/delay, range [summon]
37/15, 250 [4s] Frozen Heart Shard (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83666), Vule's Frozen Heart (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83633) - Devlin Rochester, DoD
30/15, 250 [4s] Shuriken of Eternity (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=14733), Ton Po's Mystical Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=21338) - Time, Rallos Zek
23/15, 250 [1.5s] Dreadstone (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83440), Pouch of Curses (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83436) - Dreadspire random drop
23/15, 220 Runic Steel War Javelin (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=93491) - tradeskilled 135triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=21366&menustr=035000000000)
20/15, 250 Runic Steel Longflight Javelin (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=93490) - tradeskilled 135triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=21054&menustr=035000000000)
17/15, 225 [1.5s] Starfish Stones (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83439), Stoneroot Starfish (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83307) - Stoneroot random drop
36/35, 225 Steel-Weighted Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63796) - tradeskilled 96triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11679&menustr=035000000000)
36/35, 75 Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63795) -tradeskilled 87triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11643&menustr=035000000000)
11/15, 170 [15s] Shissar Fangs (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=32531), A Dusty Soriz Worker Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=8200) - Ssra basement

mods: parse1 (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?p=274354)
+15% throwing - Arms of Augmentation (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=26510) - Sanctus Seru, Praesertum Rhugol (3rd floor of NE building)
+5% throwing - Girdle of Focus (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=28957) - Thall Va Kelun, VT
+2% throwing - Grimling Armband of Servitude (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=7084) - Gniktar Grinwit, Hollowshade

Sharpshooting (bows excluded):
VI - Leering Coldstone Mask (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83601)
V - Last Blood of the Archer (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=33350) aug type12
V - Bazu Seal of Sharpshooting (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=33378) aug type12
IV - Discordant Seal of Sharpshooting (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=33406) aug type12
III - Eyes of the Hunter, tier 3 tribute [79]
III - Ilsin's Mantle (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70717) - RS
III - Shroud of Ceaseless Might (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=69066) - Txevu
III - Chronal Seal of Sharpshooting (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=33434) aug type12
II - Eyes of the Hunter, tier 2 tribute [53]
II - Lustrous Shimmering Band (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=68956) - Noqufiel, Inktu'ta
I - Eyes of the Hunter, tier 1 tribute [35]
I - Eyepatch of Expert Archery (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70610) - Trial of Efficiency, MPG
I - Charred Ringlet (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70649) - Gazz the Gargantuan, Bloodfields

[Jazya]

I could see merit to the 23dmg throwers being closer to ~25-26 damage, especially if a reagent cost was added (1 peridot per 20 stack for example, or short/insta-cast 100 for a diamond, etc...)

IMO, due to their limited nature, there should be tradeskilled throwing items with better ratio in addition to being a much higher delay. Instead of 23/15, something like 100/45 (right between time and vule pouch) stats could be reduced or even eliminated for these.

Frankly I think the +hp/etc are WAY too good for the cost to make existing javelins. These are intended to be thrown, not worn for stats IMO.

In any case, throwing is such a small tool in our arsenal that I wonder if it's even worth debate.

[shmoozneak]

2) Exception Backstab - Random chance to perform a backstab with 2x or 2.5x damage (totally passive ability - no endurance cost)

Isn't that more-or-less what crits are supposed to be? I'm pretty sure I get crits on my backstabs.

[shmoozneak]

23/15 is good when you consider all you have to do is farm crappy mobs instead of getting a raid to push through to rz in time to get pouch, that's risk vs. reward hard at work.

Bingo.

[Jazya]

Isn't that more-or-less what crits are supposed to be? I'm pretty sure I get crits on my backstabs.I think he means additionally stacking with crits, kinda like a 'daggerfall proc' backstab.

I'd still like a random, rare 5-10k backstab AA (like slay undead) tho!

[shmoozneak]

... fix the darn *can not see target* crap when the mobs right infront of you..

Yeah ... all you need is a little 10 inch speed bump in the floor between you and the 27 foot tall mob and you start getting the dreaded "You can't hit them from here" message. What's up with that, anyway?

[tsdiesel]

That's a casual vs. raid issue and you make the choice of how you want to play; you're not "forced" to do anything.

How do you even remotely come to this conclusion? Everyone that is not in Demiplane is casual and are not raiding in Everquest? P-l-e-a-s-e. It is an itemization issue pure and simple. The issue was addressed, but it has not fixed the problem. Where is the middle ground between a Demiplane ranged item and an item that is several years old/outdated?

[Jecour]

I'm saying that unless you raid, you're not gonna see the 23+ dmg throwing items currently available. That is a choice you make.

[Jecour]

Tsdiesel

Here is the known throwing itemization prior to DoD:

Range DPS:
dmg/delay, range [summon]
30/15, 250 [4s] Shuriken of Eternity (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=14733), Ton Po's Mystical Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=21338) - Time, Rallos Zek
36/35, 225 Steel-Weighted Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63796) - tradeskilled 96triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11679&menustr=035000000000)
36/35, 75 Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63795) -tradeskilled 87triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11643&menustr=035000000000)
11/15, 170 [15s] Shissar Fangs (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=32531), A Dusty Soriz Worker Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=8200) - Ssra basement


and here is the known throwing itemization since DoD:

Range DPS:
dmg/delay, range [summon]
37/15, 250 [4s] Frozen Heart Shard (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83666), Vule's Frozen Heart (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83633) - Devlin Rochester, DoD
30/15, 250 [4s] Shuriken of Eternity (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=14733), Ton Po's Mystical Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=21338) - Time, Rallos Zek
23/15, 250 [1.5s] Dreadstone (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83440), Pouch of Curses (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83436) - Dreadspire random drop
23/15, 220 Runic Steel War Javelin (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=93491) - tradeskilled 135triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=21366&menustr=035000000000)
20/15, 250 Runic Steel Longflight Javelin (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=93490) - tradeskilled 135triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=21054&menustr=035000000000)
17/15, 225 [1.5s] Starfish Stones (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83439), Stoneroot Starfish (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83307) - Stoneroot random drop
36/35, 225 Steel-Weighted Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63796) - tradeskilled 96triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11679&menustr=035000000000)
36/35, 75 Bola (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=63795) -tradeskilled 87triv (http://www.eqtraders.com/items/show_item.php?item=11643&menustr=035000000000)
11/15, 170 [15s] Shissar Fangs (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=32531), A Dusty Soriz Worker Pouch (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=8200) - Ssra basement


non-raiders went from 11/15 to 23/15
raiders went from 30/15 to 37/15

what is the problem, as you see it? Be specific.

(storebought, Mrylokar's bracer, Stanos pouch, yada yada all omitted)

[Pushup]

it's not an itemization issue, the best throwing items require the greater time and effort and there are alternative weapons for those who can't get them, that is how it's supposed to be. Lets put this in perspective, ton po pouch drops off a GOD, stoneroot starfish can drop off itty bitty little water snake; but these items should be on the same playing field? that doesn't make sense. If you're one of those raid guilds that's past time but not in DP yet there's nothing stopping you from getting back in time with a PU raid or even an offnight raid, all this boils down to is people want raid quality items handed to them and that's not going to happen because that's just not logical. If you're a rogue and you're concerned this much about ranged dps then maybe you should consider a class change to a ranger or a zerker, I can't think of any mobs that I don't engage in melee except fennin ro for gods sake. I think they actually did good to put out 3 different throwing weapons on a steady curve based on progression opposed to the typical put something like vule's heart in and nothing for an inbetween like they did with pop.

[Pushup]

Where is the middle ground between a Demiplane ranged item and an item that is several years old/outdated?

Level 1
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83439
Level 2
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83440

This is middle ground for people not lucky enough to get ton po pouch or to be currently killing devlin.

[likenew]

throwing as it is, is fine for the most part. i don't have a ton po's, f monk hard. nor do i have any of the new clickies, just haven't been lucky to see it drop, or fast enough to notice the sk guildies who seems to solo stoneroot for some reason and gotten that pouch to drop 3 times, f rangers too.

and to be honest, there aren't a whole lot of mobs a nonraiding rogue would want to throw on, only the spell mob in weaponry is what i can think of, as its the only mob i throw my spears on. there are more raiding mobs that do need the throwing dps, but group ones there aren't. and you also don't need higher damage stars/stones/spears if you want to pull, just need that 250 range. as it stands, i want a ton po's for future fights i'll need to do throwing dps. but i want a clicky thrower for the sole purpose of pulling, as i pull in groups and raids so much. clicky thrower saves so much bag space. with a bow, i'd use some crap single group bow, clicky arrow summoner, regents(bloody pouch), and then the arrows they summon. clicky thrower is just the clicky and what it summons.

throwing is fine

nerves of steel needs fixed

our dps needs boosting

appraisal needs to be forgotten

illusions are worthless and will from now on 95% of the time be all/all, give it up

poisons won't be fixed, give it up

sos needs to not be nerfed any further

and for the love of all things holy, no group sos! that is entirely asking for a nerf, taking a group to nearly anywhere, coh a raid easily...

ya..

[Jecour]

I think Tsdiesel is a warrior (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1238306) that multi-boxes and wants to put his rogue on /autofire to simplify things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would explain the angle of many of your posts.

[Jazya]

Anyways back on topic- my comments in bold.

1) Boost sustained DPS so that we maintain a clear advantage over other classes in sustained DPS.
a) add an innate +chance to crit on backstabs at level 12
b) add a backstab-specific crit AA
c) add an AA that allows us to rarely make 'crippling' stabs that do 5-10kdmg (similar to slay undead)

2) Timer Moves - Rename to "Disciplines" (currently being evaluated)
- Move Assassin's Feint line off the Sneak Attack line timer .
- Move Twisted Chance to the Deadeye timer or its own timer.
- Increase duration of burst discs
- Add a new long-duration burst disc

3) Double/Triple backstab (No changes planned at this time)
remove this

4) Boost Burst DPS (currently being evaluated)
remove this, push #2

5) Illusions (currently being evaluated) (shack - new illusions added with DoDH)
- Add more illusion masks for rogues at all levels of play.
- Add illusion: Shadowman or similar "stealthy" appearance.
- Create alternatives paths for BRD/ROG to acquire Human/Gnome Illusions

6) Shroud of Stealth (currently being evaluated)
- Make it possible to identify mobs which see through SoS without conning them.
- Some rogues feel there are too many see-SoS mobs in DoDH.
- Zonewide AEs are increasingly common and break SoS for the entire zone.
- The "Your Shroud of Stealth keeps you hidden" message doesn't appear to be functioning properly. It's been suggested that this is because the message doesn't function on undead mobs.
- NPCs with whom players are supposed to talk in DoDH have helpfully been flagged as see-invis. They need to be flagged as see-SoS as well

7) Position Dependancy (currently being evaluated)
- Backstab failing due to Out of Range / Cannot See should not cause backstab / sneak attack to be greyed out
- Increase hitbox size of mobs, particularly on raid encounters
- remove this sub-item: Fix the "cannot see" and "out of range" issues with backstab. Suggested that this is caused by client/server syncing.

8) Poisons (currently being evaluated) - will most likely be considered as part of the class re-envisioning
Make poisons easier to use and less prohibitive in terms of time investment. Some suggestions of how to achieve this are:
- Implement some form of endless poison or poison conservation AA.
- Increase the drop rate of poison ingredients or make them purchaseable at a reasonable cost.
- Increase the yield of poisons per combine.
- Dramatically increase the yield of poisons per combine, making the poisons yielded no rent.
- Make old world and PoP poisons stackable
- Add a resist adjustment for poisons via AAs or new poison recipes.

9) Itemisation
- Add more +backstab damage items at all levels of play. (currently being evaluated)
- Please examine the effect of recent boosts to other classes in relation to rogues, bearing in mind that they are mostly not itemisation based, and thus may leave casual rogues with problems keeping up.

- Add a Rogue-only +1 damage aug (non-elemental) for type 4/8 slots of piercing weapons that is available to single group content.
- Add 20+ backstab damage to more post-PoTime Rogue BP's that have no backstab damage.

10) AE Rampage (currently being evaluated)
- Add an additional defence for rogues to avoid AE rampage.


Replace #3 and #4 with:

#3) Quantify by percentage the intended DPS rankings of Rogues compared to ALL other classes, so that the player community can identify inconsistencies in the following categories. Be sure to include PAL dmg vs live AND undead targets.
Short - ~90 second burst
Medium - ~3-6 minute burst
Long - Infinitely sustainable

#4) Keys/UI-
a) Create a toggle-able 'queue' for 1 backstab to fire as soon as it is available. This is a useful feature common in many other popular MMOG's (EQ2, WoW, CoH, etc...)
b) Remove the requirement of attack off to sneak/evade
c) Code escape to turn off autoattack/autofire

[tsdiesel]

Level 1
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83439
Level 2
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83440

This is middle ground for people not lucky enough to get ton po pouch or to be currently killing devlin.

Neither of those are between 30/15 and 37/15, not even close. Find me another weapon type that has no middle ground ratios between Plane of Time level and Demiplane level...

Many thanks to Likenew, at least I'm not the only raiding rogue between these 2 areas of the game that lacks a Ton Po's...

[likenew]

there are plenty of rogues between time and demiplane

i still say throwing itemization is fine with the the dreadspire and stoneroot clickies while we wait for a ton po's to arrive.

[Kevdogg]

autobackstab and backstab timmer not used if nothing in range. im sorry i like to chat and not use 3rd party programs while i raid and group=p

posions - let us be able to make clicky potions(just dont give that to shamans) and plz upgrade the older ones and put more then 15 mins on the proc ones lol. otherwise just put endless quiver aa in for these suck posions=p

[Sitsuji]

1) Crit AA line, Including Veteran's Wrath, to work on Backstabs as to rogues these are not special attacks, they are normal melee.

2) Endless Quiver type AA for throwing, possibly increase the drop rate of Ton Po's pouch

3) Triple Attack

4) Haste Cap raise AAs (5, 10, and 15% suggested -- not stack with bard song's does stack with overhaste clickies)

5) Add another tier after Forced Opening which positions you behind the mob... Possibly another tier to place you at max melee range... call it Intuition

6) Cause Counterattack and Nimble to work as "Don't Hit Me" disciplines vs. Rampage and Enrage so we can keep dps going through some fights here and there.

7) A parallel to the Daggerfall line of Discs which we can pop mid fight for double damage backstab and increased chance to double, triple BS


And I want to copy Jazya's that I like here too ...

#3) Quantify by percentage the intended DPS rankings of Rogues compared to ALL other classes, so that the player community can identify inconsistencies in the following categories. Be sure to include PAL dmg vs live AND undead targets.
Short - ~90 second burst
Medium - ~3-6 minute burst
Long - Infinitely sustainable

#4) Keys/UI-
a) Create a toggle-able 'queue' for 1 backstab to fire as soon as it is available. This is a useful feature common in many other popular MMOG's (EQ2, WoW, CoH, etc...)
b) Remove the requirement of attack off to sneak/evade
c) Code escape to turn off autoattack/autofire

[shmoozneak]

throwing is fine

Yup.

nerves of steel needs fixed

Or a more accurate description and a refund for those who got it thinking it is what it says it is.

our dps needs boosting

Yup.

appraisal needs to be forgotten

Or at least accurately described so folks will know not to bother with it.

illusions are worthless and will from now on 95% of the time be all/all, give it up

Yeah, but they are fun. Too bad they spoiled the party by giving them to everybody.

poisons won't be fixed, give it up

I've pretty much reached the point where I see that entire skill as little more than a means by which we can cash in a little on the market to upgrade OOW augments. Even the best of the poisons themselves are far too much trouble to bother with. The drops for the OOW poisons were so stupidly rare that there really wasn't any point in putting those recipes in at all.

sos needs to not be nerfed any further

Yup.

and for the love of all things holy, no group sos! that is entirely asking for a nerf, taking a group to nearly anywhere, coh a raid easily...

I agree. SoS is a class defining ability. It's not something we're supposed to be able to share.

[decius1]

Okay there's some good suggestions in this thread. Here are the changes I propose to make.

5 - Illusions
new addition - Add an alternative way to obtain a gnome mask now that it no longer drops.

2 - Timer Adjustments renamed as Disciplines / Burst Dps
New addition - Add a new long-duration burst disc to boost burst dps.

3 - Double / Triple Backstab will go to poll for replacement. There is the possibility that the double backstab may function in some form on sneak attack, basically how this would work is it would function on two attacks and if it was a single backstab it would just carry over to the piercing attack. Rytan is looking into that possibility I think, so we don't need it on our top 10 anymore.

7 - Position Dependancy
- Backstab failing due to Out of Range / Cannot See should not cause backstab / sneak attack to be greyed out (Jazya's rewording)
- Too many raid targets are unpinnable with the result that rogue dps is becoming sub-par. Either more raid targets need to be pinnable / perma-rooted or rogue dps needs to be boosted to take the lost dps into account.

----------------

#3) Quantify by percentage the intended DPS rankings of Rogues compared to ALL other classes, so that the player community can identify inconsistencies in the following categories. Be sure to include PAL dmg vs live AND undead targets.
Short - ~90 second burst
Medium - ~3-6 minute burst
Long - Infinitely sustainable

I'm not putting this up because we simply will not get an answer. They won't release that kind of data. I know cause I ask them to release all the time. So it would be a waste of a top 10 slot :)

(edit: the reason I was given, if you're interested, is that people would complain more. I guess that they're reasoning is that where precisely one class should fall in relation to another is so much a matter of opinion that no matter what results they chose and released, they would always have an awful lot of upset players. Personally, I disagree. My opinion is that those players are going to assume the worst and complain anyway, so you might as well release the numbers on the offchance that some useful perspectives are gained. I encourage you to post about this on EQLive, but it's not something that will be useful on our top 10).

----------------

#4) Keys/UI-
a) Create a toggle-able 'queue' for 1 backstab to fire as soon as it is available. This is a useful feature common in many other popular MMOG's (EQ2, WoW, CoH, etc...)
b) Remove the requirement of attack off to sneak/evade
c) Code escape to turn off autoattack/autofire

I'll put this up on a poll along with nerves of steel and double/triple attack, and top 2 will go up.

Any objections to the above, post them now :)

[Sixfinger]

I dont want to see any type of 'autofire' for backstab, that's just lazy and will promote afk'ing on raids. But i do like the idea that is we are unable to BS due to positioning (or such) issues that BS isn't greyed out.

Nerves of Steel, while a nice toy (if it worked how they say??) has limited practical uses. Im trying to remember what AE's currently at the high-end of the game are actually resistable, and for casual rogs to resist spells on a regular basis need either full buffs or Qciv+ gear. Great idea, not really practical.

Rogs being the master of poisons, should get some type of additional innate poison resist check. Tie it in with poison mastery AA.

Accuracy working on backstabs would be nice, but once again game design high-end makes it impractical as a DPS boost. Casual (non top-end raiders) would see more of a bonus from this than current top-end raiders. Then comes the problem, accuracy isn't easily available to non-raiders.

Illusions, ho humm. Nice toy but anyone with a pocket chanter can have more illusions than we can masks. Just a idea, add another level to perm invis. 1st level is how it is currently. But the next level is us 'buying' illusions (aka spells book spells) and through the purchase of the additional AA are able to use. So instead of farming masks to use, we farm/quest/buy ect the various illusion spells to memorize. As for Lore, we just memorize how to take the illusion of other races.

Throwing, really dont see why its apart of the discussion. Maybe im playing my class wrong, but ive NEVER used throwing in DPS situations, and ive recently aquired a ring that casts cancel magic (like 200 range, 4sec cast time) to use for pulling. Throwing to me is just something that we have, not something that we should focus attention on.

Even though I harp on about our DPS, I think on mobs that are ideal targets for rogs (rooted/cornerable) is about correct. I personally use eye-poker +tunat aug and a DK'er with about 90 accuracy, and while I do get out DPS'ed at times by other classes (wiz or epic2 zerker) it's normally as a result of them being in a bard grp and me without a bard. And the DPS difference is normally less than 10k damage. It's where we dont get perm ass access that our DPS drops down (ive been out DPS'ed by a warrior when unable to BS...O the shame).

Pipe dreams:
1) Pick-pocket poison reagents instead of having them drop. Or being able to produce reagents from corpses. Kill a snake, and use a AA/skill to extract it's poison sacks.
2) Dagger-fall version of manaburn. We put all our endurance into a single BS. I love big numbers....6.3k isn't big enough for me!
3) Rog specific quests, for things like +BS augs/items. A quested item that has +2BS at lev 25 isn't going to break the game.

Just ideas.

6finger Discount

[Under]

Two Words: Questable Gnome Mask

what Xulok said.


Oh, and the bloody Nerves of Steel, or give me my AAs back

[Mizarx]

Trying to be constructive for n-th time:

---------------------------------------------------------
5 - Illusions
new addition - Add an alternative way to obtain a gnome mask now that it no longer drops.
---------------------------------------------------------

I don't really care about illusions anymore, all/all destroyed most of the fun of it, and the fact theres no benefit of using, even if benefit was so minimal as faction or racial bonuses from it (DE mask Neriak faction, ultravision and so ... as example Ogre mask wont give you front stun inmunity , etc ... ) As long as many rogues seems to care about illusions still its ok to me

---------------------------------------------------------
2 - Timer Adjustments renamed as Disciplines / Burst Dps
New addition - Add a new long-duration burst disc to boost burst dps.
---------------------------------------------------------

DPS, good, but it all depends what they would give us, they fouled us many times yet, if improvement cant be parsed then its not improvement

---------------------------------------------------------
3 - Double / Triple Backstab will go to poll for replacement. There is the possibility that the double backstab may function in some form on sneak attack, basically how this would work is it would function on two attacks and if it was a single backstab it would just carry over to the piercing attack. Rytan is looking into that possibility I think, so we don't need it on our top 10 anymore.
---------------------------------------------------------

Replace it, daggerfall is worthless, if just a damage firework of no use on raids due the 'sneak, attack' (except some few fights where rogue has to run away for some time several times in the encounter), and no use on groups due the huge amount of endurance it burns. I care aless daggerfall, double daggerfall or even tripple daggerfall. To make it worst the number of times daggerfall scores far away minimal damage is ridiculous

---------------------------------------------------------
7 - Position Dependancy
- Backstab failing due to Out of Range / Cannot See should not cause backstab / sneak attack to be greyed out (Jazya's rewording)
- Too many raid targets are unpinnable with the result that rogue dps is becoming sub-par. Either more raid targets need to be pinnable / perma-rooted or rogue dps needs to be boosted to take the lost dps into account.
---------------------------------------------------------

Indeed loosing a backstab because oor (even you see the mob is on your face) hurts a lot, minor fix, but welcome
I like mob variety, I don't care if mob is permarooted or not, but mobs needs to be able to be permarrooted, cornered, pinned or walked. What needs fixing is oor issues, warping, pathing and small boxes, once thats assured then is a matter of rogue and raid skill to get the best dps throughput

---------------------------------------------------------
#3) Quantify by percentage the intended DPS rankings of Rogues compared to ALL other classes, so that the player community can identify inconsistencies in the following categories. Be sure to include PAL dmg vs live AND undead targets.
Short - ~90 second burst
Medium - ~3-6 minute burst
Long - Infinitely sustainable
---------------------------------------------------------

I dont care to know percentages, I read my parses and I know some dps numbers are plain wrong as they are actually for too many fights. As I wont call for nerfing other classes, give us back what we should have.

---------------------------------------------------------
#4) Keys/UI-
a) Create a toggle-able 'queue' for 1 backstab to fire as soon as it is available. This is a useful feature common in many other popular MMOG's (EQ2, WoW, CoH, etc...)
b) Remove the requirement of attack off to sneak/evade
c) Code escape to turn off autoattack/autofire
---------------------------------------------------------

Absolute NO to autobackstab, if you want so hard to chat get skype, or learn to type faster @@. Chance to pre-queue 1 backstab is another thing ... I play sometimes EQ2 and this is not by any mean the same as autobackstab, as you still need to hit backstab once per hit, but its advantage is that if you have the backstab queued then it fires as soon as available. There are many encounters where the rogue likes to be sure before hit backstab hes positioned on a way backstab will land, or even dealy it a second to reach mob's back, then he just doesnt queue next bs and hit bs as usual. On fights where mob is more or less steady the advantage of not having to wait to see backstab greyed out is not a small one, and in fact would be a paerseable dps upgrade, yes, because 'reaction time' exists, human player looses almost 1 second since backstab is available until he hits backstab (in fact maybe more, because I am sure UI updates slower than bs timer is set back, just spamm bs button and you will notice you will never get to see the backstabb button greyed out)
Anyways I doubt they can get this done as I don't see any easy way to implement queuing on EQ1 (I dont know about internals, but I know theres ways to 'automate events', but not to 'single queue' it

About remove attack off for evading, is ok, anyways is so easy to make the macro evade, but it would save me 1 hotbar slot, as I need 1 to check 'hide' status and 1 for the evade macro key ... and to attack off when escaping, ya, would be nice too, although I have already harcoded on my head as to do it manually

[milliar]

I am in a family style raiding guild whom is just starting game progression.. We are just about to get into VT which is a big step for us.. My only complaint is the rate of drops.. Im lvl 62, my throwing skill is 180ish and all I can only get my hands on is either myrlokars or make those dam javelins which is a PITA.. I want my dusty soriz pouch but in the 2 weeks we spent down there clearing out the tunnels for the shards only 1 of the dusty soriz pouches dropped.. Thus my complaint.. If we rogues should have throwing as a skill make the drop rates more often.. Nothing to outrageous maybe every 4-5 kills of the random spawning mob.. I still want to work for it but not have to camp the dam thing for a month.. I would love to have a ton po's or hell Id even settle for the starfish thing but as is I wont be that far in the game for a while so I will just be content with the soriz pouch.. BUt just increase the dam drop rate.. Oh and we definately need an aa like endless pouch similar to eq for rangers.. Personally Im happy with my dps although sure id like more but I will live with what I have currently..

[Santril]

c) Code escape to turn off autoattack/autofire

With respect to any rogue who's got a problem with this, do it yourself. :)

The command for Escape is /alt act 102 -- something found in the Safehouse Library. Setup a marco key to shut attack and autofire off, then pop Escape. We've been able to do that since Luclin.

Other than that, I like the changes.

[Jazya]

Santril -

I agree, it's a great idea to do that. The problem is (like an evade macro) the social doesn't grey out when the ability can't be used. This leaves you at either:

1- Making two hotkeys, one for the social, one for the ability one for the social
or
2- Turning attack off manually

It was an afterthought really, just some things to lump into the request to ask for. Neither are a big deal, but have the potential to save Rogues from a couple of extra hotkeys, keystrokes or lost dps

[Castina Solomnus]

It would cause me to die horribly since like evade, I hit the autoattack key before escape out of habit.

[Suzuka]

I just don't see why we care so much about the dps on throwing, I got the time pouch and aside from ranging the adds after killing AM or DPSing berserkers in Tacvi there is no point in using it as dps tool because melee outperforms ranged by a long shot in any other situation, heck on weak vs ranged Bers in tacvi I manage to pull off around 600th dps with disc and my avg melee non disc is greater than that. So only use for the pouch is to tag mobs, pull mob, in that case "range" matters only. 225 is beyond plenty to tag pull with, 250 even more so. just my 2 coppers.

[Sitsuji]

AAs to make evade work better, no reason the final tier shouldn't drop you down one spot on the aggro list 100% of the time if you are at the top.

[skewerzjoo]

I just don't see why we care so much about the dps on throwing, I got the time pouch and aside from ranging the adds after killing AM or DPSing berserkers in Tacvi there is no point in using it as dps tool because melee outperforms ranged by a long shot in any other situation, heck on weak vs ranged Bers in tacvi I manage to pull off around 600th dps with disc and my avg melee non disc is greater than that. So only use for the pouch is to tag mobs, pull mob, in that case "range" matters only. 225 is beyond plenty to tag pull with, 250 even more so. just my 2 coppers.

I actually use throwing items a lot on Queen Sendail. Yer standing there melee'ing the spider....uh oh..here come the Queen! So I get out of range, and start chucking my javelins..that way I'm at least doing some dps while the queen ravages those that don't see her coming...

Granted, it's only one encounter, but it's one that's going to be repeated quite a few times to get those people 5/5 on demiplane curse...

[AzerraakMT]

AAs to make evade work better, no reason the final tier shouldn't drop you down one spot on the aggro list 100% of the time if you are at the top.

Umm no. You should learn how to play your class. Any rogue that's worth a plat can manage his/her aggro. This is a stupid idea and I hope we don't waste a slot on the top 10 on garbage like this.

Personally, I'd suggest triple attack (Everyone else has it), Move Twisted to deadeye (Should have been there in the first place), and boost overall rogue dps across the board. Sorry but all we do on raids is dps, we have no utility, the mez disc crap is like a fake taunt button for tanking creator and CRing won't happen if your guild has a necro in it.

If you guys wanna get creative and ask for the port-to-butt thing that mpg trial rogues have or something similar, go for it. Don't waste the top 10 on garbage that won't make a difference.

[shmoozneak]

With respect to any rogue who's got a problem with this, do it yourself. :)

The command for Escape is /alt act 102 -- something found in the Safehouse Library. Setup a marco key to shut attack and autofire off, then pop Escape. We've been able to do that since Luclin.

I tried that. I know how to turn off attack with a command -- /attack off. I couldn't figure out a command that would always turn off autoifire, however. I tried /autofire off, but that didn't work. What it did if autofire wasn't on was to turn it on, and that, of course, screwed up the escape.

Can anybody give some insight into this?

[Sitsuji]

Quested AAs, skills, disciplines weather it be the phase shift to backstab I'd love to see or a clicky summon poison worth using or anything else.

[Sixfinger]

I actually use throwing items a lot on Queen Sendail. Yer standing there melee'ing the spider....uh oh..here come the Queen!

Dont even get me started on Queen Sendyouinsane. But another way of dealing with that phase of the script is to have entire raid stick together. When u see her moving towards the raid, move the entire raid to the other side. Just bounce one side to the other, running away from her.

Getting back to Rogs, saying that we need a DPS boost is not what we require. What we need is a DPS increase in certain situations.

Today in Tacvi against Vor:
Wizard: 1285
Me: 862
Rog2: 617
Ranja: 443
Rog3: 419
Monk: 413
Rog4: 408
Magi: 380 (no pet damage included)
Wiz: 379
Druid: 374

While the wiz is 400DPS ahead of me, it took them having a bard in grp, druid epic2 click rotation, and some crit AA they have.

Now remove BS damage and the list becomes:
Wiz: 1285
Me: 532 (330BS DPS)
Ranja: 443
Monk: 413
Magi: 380
Wiz: 379
Druid: 374
Rog2: 318 (299BS DPS)
Rog4: 182 (226BS DPS)
Rog3: 134 (285BS DPS)

We need to increase our non-BS DPS, because the current mob/room design doesn't allow for sustained BS'ing.

6finger Discount
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1208774

[BrooklynBridge]

I'll drop the bomb.

Rewrite the formula for Backstab and tweak all dagger dmg/dly accordingly. WoW did it, so can you.
OR
Make all daggers reflect poor damage but add some sort of innate dagger type thing to offset this(like an increased chance to crit/or an innate proc called puncture perhaps, something that makes a crappy small dagger into an item that non rogues might like). Make it a property of all daggers, not the players wielding them. You could give rogues the innate ability to capitalize on the daggers properties.

Piercing Mastery. =x

Triple Attack./duck

There are a few different poison systems in game. Pick one and port the others to it. Or just make a new one, it's not ******* rocket science. Fire the rocket scientists and fill their positions with coders.

Make it so a successful evade places rogues outside of ae rampage's way, it only works approx 1/3 of the time anyhow.
OR
Give rogues a dodge ae rampage aa.

Stealthy Getaway doesn't make sense. Mobs see with their magical aggro radius, not eyes. Take the hidden requirement off of the ability or re-envision(ie recode, OMG another recoding request! Quake in terror.) what it means for a rogue to be hidden.

Make our macro buttons more robust. For instance, I want my backstab macro button to visually tell me when backstab is ready(ie grayed out). Multiple commands wouldn't a problem either, unless someones lazy.

Give us an autofire backstab button. It's not about Lazy, it's about not wanting to be a button clicking Zombie.

Do I have to mention "The Mask" all the rogues want? Don't have it be a mask though. Give it to us as an aa, that's gotten not through purchasing it, but by questing for it/obtaining it automatically via some process such as getting a new title, (Infiltrator: hint, hint), milestone level, etc.

The ability to mimic other humanoid-ish mobs via /target mob + click aa/ability. Put past mimicry into a que for easy recall.

Next expansion, give us a quest that requires us to assassinate and/or steal an item from playercharacter_01. And yeah, I mean on the blueservers, with no opt-out option(or have it be a cleverly disguised opt-in).

Make it so an illusion change has a chance of wiping agro completely off of a mobs hate list (the ones who aren't kos, or even to the ones that are if the appropriate mask is used).

Give the noobs some masks to start via a starting-city quest.

PS The Burning Rapier is a ghey quest. But it's still one of the best rogues have. Why is that do you suppose?

PPS Not a rogue thing but... it's really pathetic that all races can't display robes when worn. Absolutely no excuse. Not close to a priority but some of the anachronisms such as that in EQ are truly dumb.

[Azathool]

Sixfinger, whilst I agree rogues are currently being "left of the loving" list and need attention in several areas, please do not use parses without context to justify your cause. I can easily post parses showing the opposite figures. For example;

Zun`muram yihst vor:

Rogue: 1145 DPS
Monk: (me) 913 DPS
Wiz: 850 DPS
Monk: 751 DPS

Also it's a rooted mob. Why would you possibly dismiss backstab from the figures ?
____
What about this parse ?

Quarm:

Monk (me): 600 DPS
Rogue: 547 DPS
Warr: 328 DPS
Ranger: 311 DPS
Wiz: 306 DPS

Oh.. Did I mention ? The rogue above.. was tanking !.. And did 2nd best DPS.. whilst tanking him (from the front obviously).

Individual parses without reference to conditions are very miss-leading. Mob resist de-buffs make a HUGE difference for wizards. Bard over-haste song for wizards makes 5% difference only (because their flappy is already a 25% focus). Why anyone puts wizards with bards I have no idea. But mages/necro's love bards ! They get the full 30%.

Yes, rogues need attention in several areas from SoE, but posting wild parses without reference to the full conditions only weakens your cause as those "in the know" just dismiss what your saying.

[Bumadar]

We need to increase our non-BS DPS, because the current mob/room design doesn't allow for sustained BS'ing.

6finger Discount


...In CoA the tank tanks Keldovan in a corner and I can do maximum dmg during the whole fight. In DSK this is almost impossible, try to corner Vule and he wil warp onto the corner and/or tank, so the tank ends up moving him a lot, pining a mob like this is almost impossible. Zu Thuuli in Demi-Plane is another great example on how rogue B/S goes down the drain fast and classes that are below the rogue in dps pass us easly.

So yes have to agree with Sixfinger on this, I dunno why SoE designed DoDh this way but for a class who only gets his full potentiol on a mob from a certain angle it really really is bad.

[Sixfinger]

Sixfinger, whilst I agree rogues are currently being "left of the loving" list and need attention in several areas, please do not use parses without context to justify your cause.

The idea behind posting the parse was to show that rog DPS is dependant upon having constant ass access. Vor is pretty much the ideal parse mob, it's debuffed prior to engagement and the MT has monster aggro prior to engagement. If you read through this thread, the general thought process is that rog DPS in general needs to be increased, and the most popular way of achieving this is through BS DPS increases.

Showing the BS component of the rog's DPS was to show just how much of our DPS is dependant upon having ass access. Journey into DoDh, and all of a sudden there is no corners to pin mobs or rooted mobs to give us that access. Even the slope of the walls make walking the mob almost impossable. Increasing our DPS through BS will not change anything.

It's almost gotten to the stage where i'll buy another 35+ dam weapon and bag my poker on these encounters so my place in the raid can be justified (36 man progression raids where u need 5 tanks and 10 clerics sucks Sony!).

I dont know if poker mastery on 30 dam pokers, will equal/pass the damage of using 35+ dam 1hs/1hb. Is it worth taking up a spot on the Top 10 (dream) list where in reality it will have little to no (and im leaving towards none) effect on our DPS under the current itemization conditions.

How to give us the required DPS increase...well something that comes to mind is fix poisons!

6finger Discount

[Sixfinger]

Zun`muram yihst vor: Rogue: 1145 DPS
Quarm: Rogue: 547 DPS


And that Azathool, is exactly the point we are trying to make. Rogs need ass access todo the DPS that we are expected to push out. Remove BS'ing from the equation (through mob/room design) and Rog DPS drops to levels where it shouldn't be.

6finger Discount

[Azathool]

The rogue was 547.. cos he was tanking quarm !. as I said. He was the MA. Personally, I think doing 2nd best DPS despite tanking shows how good DPS rogues DO do from the front.

But what your saying is, rogues should do max DPS without having to backstab ? Really ?

Sorry, but the penalty you pay for the highest DPS in the game is the requirement for good position.

Whilst I agree some fights suck majorly for position, I disagree that you should do what you do now, without needing to backstab.

What they need to fix is the positional ability/requirements, so for example you can have access to the mobs ass more easily via mob spin/distraction AA's, and also stop wasting BS hits due to OOR/LoS issues. If you cannot BS, why does it gray out ? Same with kick. In fact, same with almost any skill.

What they need to do is fix is broken AA's like NoS.. There is no excuse for SoE leaving a it broken.

They need to add DPS enhancing AA's like piercing mastery that work for all rogues across the board.

But I honestly think removing the requirement for baskstab to do the DPS you do now would be a major mistake. Really, rogues should do the best DPS, but for that you should pay a price.

[Castina Solomnus]

You mean like not being able to tank as well as a monk?

[Sixfinger]

The rogue was 547.. cos he was tanking quarm !. as I said. He was the MA. Personally, I think doing 2nd best DPS despite tanking shows how good DPS rogues DO do from the front.


Rog2: 318 (299BS DPS)
Rog4: 182 (226BS DPS)
Rog3: 134 (285BS DPS)

Im sorry those numbers suck, non-BS rog damage SUCK. And in DoDh we dont have the ability to BS like normal.

Fighting Shyra atm, guess what...he is facing the raid. Go Go me!

6finger Discount

[Suzuka]

The rogue was 547.. cos he was tanking quarm !. as I said. He was the MA. Personally, I think doing 2nd best DPS despite tanking shows how good DPS rogues DO do from the front.


That's called damage shield DPS. I shouldn't be telling you that, but you should be aware of basics like this.

Rogs and wars pretty much on same dmg table, wars usually have better ratio weapons in mainhand, so if you add that dmg shield to a war, they usually have ds that exceeds 100, tada a rog will be doing about same dps as a war due to the small chances to do single frontal stab, if not for that we'd do even worse dps.

[Azathool]

"Fighting Shyra atm, guess what...he is facing the raid. Go Go me!"

Then your doing it wrong. Every time we've done Shyra it is cornerable. Same with Bloodeye. Same with Emp Dragyun (although he is harder to always face in). Same with Co9. All are cornerable, some more so than others, some sometimes flip but if you have a good tank it's not often.

As to Damage Shield on the rogue, it counted for 67 DPS. Total without is still > the nearest warr.

91 DPS was from baskstab ! (yes, frontal backstabs.. Seems those AA do work !).

Again, are you honestly advocating that rogues should do the DPS they do now, without the need to backstab ? Cos thats what it looks like to me.

I agree whole-heartedly rogues should be the highest DPS, dont get me wrong, I agree rogues need some loving, but asking for the removal of backstab as a requirement to do the DPS you do is going too far.

[Sindier]

Im sorry those numbers suck, non-BS rog damage SUCK. And in DoDh we dont have the ability to BS like normal.

Actually, DoD DID give us the ability to backstab even from the front semi-normal. The frontal BS aa's do seem to work quite well when you don't have a mob's back available to you.

[Sitsuji]

Actually, DoD DID give us the ability to backstab even from the front semi-normal. The frontal BS aa's do seem to work quite well when you don't have a mob's back available to you.

I too am really happy with the DoD AA mentioned.

[Cleptomaniac]

Again, are you honestly advocating that rogues should do the DPS they do now, without the need to backstab ? Cos thats what it looks like to me.

I agree whole-heartedly rogues should be the highest DPS, dont get me wrong, I agree rogues need some loving, but asking for the removal of backstab as a requirement to do the DPS you do is going too far.

I think what people are saying is that our DPS should be overhauled. If we are to be tied to the rear of the mob, then make it so we have that accesible more often. If Sony is going to create zones/mobs that make it harder/immpossible for us to have that available to us, then we need a serious boost in non BS DPS.

You talk about the rogue being 2nd on the list while tanking Quarm. Now go back and parse that same rogue on Quarm when he is given the back of the mob the entire fight. Then you will see the difference we are talking about. Also check his BS DPS for the Quarm when actually behind him.

It seems wizzy's, monks, zerkers etc are all getting DPS improvements and are not tied to any certain area for max DPS (granted from the front lowers DPS because of ripo, but the sides are open. But we get only slight non-BS increase while the encounters are making it ever harder or even impossible for us to stay in the one area where we can do our best work.