View Full Version : I know I'm like, 10 years late...(Anime)
But the ending to Evangelion blew my ******* mind. And I may be in the minority, but I liked it. There may have been way too many loose story threads that deserved some closure because they rocked so much, but all in all, I don't think it was a bad way to end the series.
ragweed
03-14-06, 11:37 AM
I know I'm odd, but I've never seen a single episode.
Yup, I loved the ending to Neon Genesis Evangelion as well (loved the series enough to buy it years ago), and a lot of the reason was because it was different that anything else I'd seen. It takes guts to do an ending like that, and when you pull it off it's worth it.
If you haven't seen the 'End of Evangelion' movie you should rent that as well; the only thing I didn't like about the ending of the series is that Asuka didn't really get a 'hero moment' while fighting in her EVA, but she does in EoE. I think I liked Asuka the best of the three because on the outside she acted so confident, arrogant, and sure, yet you find out near the end that on the inside she was probably the most screwed up of all the kids.
I have the entire Platinum collection sitting on my DVD shelf. Haven't gotten around to watching it, though.
Santril
03-14-06, 12:28 PM
But the ending to Evangelion blew my ******* mind. And I may be in the minority, but I liked it.
Actually, you're in the majority. People just hate the hype. :D (Although personally, I hated the series myself, it just seemed....bland. With the exception of the last couple episodes anyway -- if you want a real mindscrew, go see all 13 episodes of Lain. )
W00t for robot-related mindf*cks.
Ok, it wasn't a total mind ****, but what I didn't expect was an introspective, socratic examination of self to top the series off. Basically, I had no idea WTF The Human Instrumentality Project was really about until the last episode. And there is only a very slight reference to it before it launches head on into showing how it works. I think it's was indeed quite ballsy to try and render the experience that is becoming god.
That said, most of my friends hate the ending or at least dislike it. There is no climatic battle, and for the mentally fragile, the questions at the end can be a nightmarish trip of introspection. Even though it ends on an "up" note, it's so detatched from what we normally expect from the ending of a story, that its hard for people to really come away from the ending feeling like they had closure.
My ONLY gripe about the series is that the last 3 episodes feel like they tried to finish the series in a hurry (the last Angel for example, really annoyed me. The "revelation" about Rae felt hurried, the mental collapse of everyone in the show just seemed rushed). There are tons of loose threads (like the Angels themselves) that I would have loved explained a little bit more. But all in all, I think for what the ultimate goal of the show was about, I think the ending rocked. Totally puts Gendo Ikari in a new light. I can't decide if people should hate him or respect him for what he did.
And PS- I have no respect for the Cartoon Network presentation after watching the DVD.
DarthEnderX
03-14-06, 01:31 PM
Yeah, basically, you have to watch the movie I guess. That's the "real" ending. Its actually the end of the storyline that the show actually follows, and the last episode of the series never really happened.
I, can't believe anyone would like the last episode. It's almost as bad as a "it was all a dream" ending.
Yes, because when there is no MONSTER SMASH, HERO WIN ending, it must be crap. I'll watch the movie just to see what kind of product gets put out when fanbois threaten your life.
And it's not a "it's all a dream ending". Part of the problem is that the Human Instrumentality Project, as a part of the storyline, takes a back seat to the Angel invasion in everyone's mind. The story doesn't do a good job (probably on purpose) of tying the Human Instrumentality Project to the Angels and what they are doing. So when the end comes, the Angels are dead, and the Human Instrumentality Project kicks off, it seems weird. Which is why I like it so much.
I mean come on. The series had a much larger message than "Giant Robots fighting". The ending is the expression of that message. I guess I'm confused where people want some cheesy ass kill the bad guy ending when the series tackles something much greater, cooler, and thought provoking. In my mind, the Angels are a secondary theme to the series. Self-Identity as the basis of reality, and as the stepping stone to god hood, is what the series' real theme is about in my opinion. If the movies are the ending that was given to satisfy what Fans want, then the movie can rot for all I care. For me it'd be taking a step backwards in appreciating the series to treat the original ending like it just didn't happen, and so that characters all get their nice, self-fulling endings.
A while ago in the forum I wrote my interpretation of the ending of NGE:
SEELE wants to initiate a third impact to start "human complementation" which joins mankind into one single, perfect entity. Kaworu, who's the fifth child and the 17th angel (sent to NERV by SEELE to start Third Impact) forms a friendship with Shinji. In the final scene with Lilith (the angel involved in the Second Impact), Kaworu tells Shinji that he has decided that Shinji should choose the fate of mankind (as the initiator of the third impact) and gets Shinji to kill him. Because of this Shinji goes a bit nuts, knowing that he killed the 17th angel because he has been told to kill the angels, but that the 17th angel was his friend.
The third impact is initiated and the last two episodes are Shinji's fractured mind trying to assemble enough information to make a decision on how mankind will exist after third impact by conversing with the minds of others who he knows (because after third impact all mankind is joined into one 'human soup' of consciousness). He is shown 'perfect freedom', which is essentially a white limitless void were there are no limitations. It's only when restrictions are applied (an up and down, a solid form) and other people with whom to interact are added where he is able to give himself a perception of who he is as a human being, and that in the limitless void there is no difference between himself and nothing because there's no form of perception to give one individuality. In the end he exclaims that he wants to be himself and that he wants to continue existing.
The 'it was just a dream' style easy way out would have been to have the EVAs fight and destroy a 'boss monster' to defeat SEELE and save NERV.
nekoken
03-14-06, 03:22 PM
After reading that the ending was all screwed up due to budget, timelines, and egos the end made a lot more sense to me. It was like "let's cram a bunch of random crap in here and make it seem like there's a really deep message."
Personally I like a little more coherency and a lot less whining in my anime. I'll watch the semi-parody Dual over Evangelion any day.
Are we talking End of Evangelion or the end as it was in the series?
PS: Wtf is up with the line at the bottom of posts in ther area where sigs would go?
Edit: Ok, the line is below sigs, and is it me or my new glasses that is making text appear really small?
All you need to know is everyone is made out of Tang!
Yeah, finding out about budgeting and censorship issues at least justified how the last few episodes played out. Apparently, the show was supposed to be originally be 2 full seasons of 26 episodes.
I really like EVA as a series, a lot of memorable events and characters that's done in such a unique way.
I also can't recommend the manga enough. Good lord, it's like an entirely different story (for the better), any qualms people have with the series about Shinji or pacing or nearly everything is alleviated here. For all intents and purposes he's a total different character in his reactions and responses too. Rei is also really different. It's really good, if you have any love for the anime I can gurantee you'd like the manga too, the only thing it's missing is the music in the background
I think my favorite aspect of the music is how the ending theme comes up in infamous episode 18 (which is, incidentally, one of the most moving things I've ever seen). "AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHflyyyyy me to the moon..."
All you need to know is everyone is made out of Tang!
You, sir, have made my day.
DarthEnderX
03-15-06, 03:38 AM
I mean come on. The series had a much larger message than "Giant Robots fighting". The ending is the expression of that message.Ah, but you see, the thing about that is, it's really not. EVA is one of those things where [some people feel the need to] assign a deeper meaning to it than the author himself ever actually intended. Assigning symbolism where there isn't.
Edit - unecessary namecalling removed - Ruc
.....
You don't even have to try to write meaning into it. You think he went off for 2 whole episodes about a metaphysical mind**** for fun? You do realize that he billed it to Sega as a Giant Robot series so it would get funding, right?
Is this the part where I get to call you names because you only want to see what justifies your interest in the series? Because I have all sorts of colorful descriptors for that mindset.
TeanninBramblefeet
03-15-06, 11:44 AM
All's I'm sayin' is... there is NO ******* WAY somebody puts that much Christian imagery and mythology into something on accident.
Sollon Darkmoon
03-15-06, 11:52 AM
AHHHHHHHHH! No good can come arugeing over EVA!!! /em runs :ontome
Knock the crap off or I will destroy all anime world wide, and you all know I can do it..
That would make you not so big in Japan........
TeanninBramblefeet
03-15-06, 12:16 PM
Actually, that would make him like Godzilla in Japan, I think.
Time for my obligatory pimpage of Revolutionary Girl Utena, which is pretty much the closest you're going to get to a shoujo version of EVA - i.e. it's a magical girl show (sort of) in the same way that Evangelion is a mecha show (sort of).
I mean, Gainax originally wanted the director of (and main force behind) Utena to direct EVA for them, as they felt he'd be a perfect match for it. :D
Really? I only saw a couple episodes of Utena a long time ago, and it was confusing as hell, but I think I liked it. I need to look up some more sometime.
I've been trying to watch this DVD of Rah-Xephon I picked up a while ago, but it's really hard to get over the feeling of, "LOOK! WE'RE NOT RIPPING OFF EVA! THE ROBOT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT COLOR, SEE?"
Sollon Darkmoon
03-15-06, 05:33 PM
Knock the crap off or I will destroy all anime world wide, and you all know I can do it..
He's so evil! Yarr!
All's I'm sayin' is... there is NO ******* WAY somebody puts that much Christian imagery and mythology into something on accident.
Do you realize how often we use nonchristian images to represent something mysterious? We, as in, americans.
Japan knows **** all about Christianity, there was not a SINGLE Christian on Gainax, this is so well documented that it's redudant. The extent of Anno's knowledge of Christianity was, "ooh, shiny!"
:/
ve been trying to watch this DVD of Rah-Xephon I picked up a while ago, but it's really hard to get over the feeling of, "LOOK! WE'RE NOT RIPPING OFF EVA! THE ROBOT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT COLOR, SEE?"
RahXephon is as much of a rip off of Eva as Eva is of the two series it ripped off from before it.
So you're saying Evangelion - Neon Genesis Evangelion - has no intentional religious imagery?
Buh...but...
just the--
but the---
and the---
and---
...Dude.
Whether there are goofballs involved or not is inconclusive, but there is some definite heffing up going on here.
RahXephon is as much of a rip off of Eva as Eva is of the two series it ripped off from before it.
What're those?
I think he means giant robot stuffs. Macross, Gundam? ect...
What're those?
Back when I was completely into Eva, I knew for certain which it was. But I'm 99% certain one of them was Space Runaway Ideon, the 1980 classic TV series, as for the other... Well, Eva's old news now, I can't recall anymore. I do recommend watching Ideon, it's great.
EDIT: To say that Macross and Gundam didn't have influence on Evangelion would be stupid on my part, as it's probably has influence on almost every robo anime nowdays. However, it definitely doesn't have as much of a direct influence as Ideon does.
EDIT2: I'm not saying it's neccessarily -wrong- for someone to attempt to look for religious imaginery. But rather, while you can get to a conclusive, sastifactory or otherwise decent result from that line of thought, it will never be the "right" conclusion in the sense of what the creators intended to portray.
When I was following Evangelion, I only saw a handful of Japanese mention the Christian aspect of it. Nobody knew anything about it, interviews in Newtype Japan show Anno being stumped by it. If you people want to try to draw conclusions from it, that's ok. What I'd like is for people to think a little outside the "culture box" so to speak and draw conclusions as a nonreligoius person, or rather, as an atheist otaku.
But really, it's hard to do now. NGE was 60% the show, 40% the events that occured during it's run. Gotta take from it what ya can get or whatever.
EDIT3: Oh man, I just realized... if Evangelion has this much religious debate even now, Fate/Stay Night that's coming out in america next year is going to make my brain explode.
DarthEnderX
03-16-06, 02:22 AM
I think it's funny how it's all the big anime nerds that are the ones saying EVA doesn't have any spiritual meaning.
Cause you KNOW Stalkyr knows what he's talking about.
That would make you not so big in Japan........As long as he's caucasian, he'll always be big in Japan.
BAM! Racist humor!
TeanninBramblefeet
03-16-06, 09:24 AM
Y'know, I bow to Stalk on every anime related thing but this. You really have to be smoking some gooood **** to really think that all the religious imagery got in there unintentionally. Adam, Eve, Lilith, the Lance of ******* Longinus, Dead Sea Scrolls, 12 members of SEELE = 12 apostles (Not counting Rufus.) Saying Eva has no intentional religious imagery is like saying that Xenogears doesn't have any. There is a giant ******* white blobby-guy crucified in the NERV complex. Stalk, perhaps Anno wasn't being completely truthful in those interviews, because I will be damned if I am ever going to believe that all that kind of **** got put in there with no meaning behind it whatsoever. That **** doesn't happen on accident.
I'm of the opinion that religious imagery is a wonderful tool for making your storyline seem incomprehensible. Maybe the religious imagery is all just a red herring, maybe its not. Whatever its intention was, I think it paints a pretty clear picture that it wasn't just "another robot show", at least as the director concieved it. I mean, like someone I know said, if the show was entirely based on big robots smashing the bad guy, then you could very well stop watching EVA after Episode 15 or so.
There is a giant ******* white blobby-guy crucified in the NERV complex.
Blobby-guy = Lilith, who was infact a blobby-lady.
Anyway, I mean yes they used Christian symbolism to get a point across but not much more than that, they are named really for an image. Take the Lance of Longinus for example, clearly that was given that name because of it being a lance, there is no evidence that it was the weapon used to pierce JC's side (unless He was Eva sized, which honestly would make the Bible way more awesome) It's just used as a tool with events in the series using it as a reference.
Another example was during EoE with the whole Egg of Lillith and Adam thing, taking myths and legends from the Bible and just sorta spinning them to suit the show's needs. Anymore will be overdoing the analysis I think.
And I think Nenjin is completely right, giant robots are just the background for it, you could have the setting be in a hot dog factory and still use the same basic elements of it. Like the movie Signs, that movie could have been set on Hawaii and Volcano's threatening his house and the whole premise of faith still would have been the same.
I like Eva because its just one of things that isn't cut and dry, it's different for everybody which is nice and pretty unique in most entertainment I think.
NGE was 60% the show, 40% the events that occured during it's run.
I came into it late, too; whatchoo talkin' bout?
TeanninBramblefeet
03-16-06, 11:39 AM
Stalk, I really need to know... Are you saying that there was no intention to have any sort of Christian imagery in Evangelion at all?
Lenilya
03-16-06, 11:42 AM
During the original run on Japanese TV, NGE was almost pulled from the air on no less than two occasions due to the massive amount of controversy going on at the time.
Greatest anime ever made? NO. This is such a stupid statement that the idiot who decided to put a slip stating this in the box set needs to be shot.
Most controversial anime ever made? Without a doubt, YES.
And I am still of the opinion that NGE is also terribly over-rated, with far too many people reading far too deep into the supposed 'meaning' all the imagery has.
Sollon Darkmoon
03-16-06, 01:06 PM
EDIT3: Oh man, I just realized... if Evangelion has this much religious debate even now, Fate/Stay Night that's coming out in america next year is going to make my brain explode.
Oh i can tell that day will be fun and full of mod-y goodness!!
Stalk, I really need to know... Are you saying that there was no intention to have any sort of Christian imagery in Evangelion at all?
They meant to use the imagery, but there was no 'deep christian meaning' to it. It's kind of like when hollywood decides to do a movie 'based on a true story', where they use what they like and change what they don't.
RahXephon used music in the same way NGE used christianity.
nekoken
03-16-06, 01:55 PM
They meant to use the imagery, but there was no 'deep christian meaning' to it. It's kind of like when hollywood decides to do a movie 'based on a true story', where they use what they like and change what they don't.
RahXephon used music in the same way NGE used christianity.
Ruccus has it exactly right. And damn do I love that Iron Man icon.
So is the upcoming live action movie going to be some sort of side story?
Because I can't imagine how they'll fit much of the main story into a single movie.
I want to make one thing clear on Evangelion's status. I think people are confusing me a little bit, but I'm not sure. Shin Seki Evangelion is one of the four social revolutions of Anime in Japan. The fourth one, that is. The keyword here is social.
I'm also not saying that it just so happens they drew it like a cross, they used the Lance of Longitus's name, by coincidence. The imaginery, as said before, was intentional. But the meaning behind it was not.
To be honest, all this can be summed up as "you had to be there." I don't remember when the first DVD arrived in American shores, but the boat was already rocked and gone by then. If, or when, the fifth "social revolution" anime comes out, we might be rocked with it this time.
I'll try to quote and answer because I kind of feel like people are going for my throat here. But it was the events surrounding Evangelion that launched it as a socially revolutionary anime, which changed the face of the fandom and industry. I'd have to write a really LONG story if I try to explain what changed, how, why, with a ton of sources of interviews, comentaries, opinions. Things I don't really feel like doing, especially not considering I'd have to change it all from Japanese to English.
That's why it's a social revolution, the religious aspect of it was not part of what made Evangelion popular. It's what made it popular here, that much is certain, however it's almost like drawing meaning from nothing. It's still fun to do, and it takes effort attempting to do so. But seeing past it and trying to figure out why it's seen as a social change would be much harder (for an non-Japanese person, that is) but it would be a attempt to convey the real meaning behind Evangelion, rather than the unintended meaning.
I came into it late, too; whatchoo talkin' bout?
Dahne, I hope what I said in the preceeding paragraphs clarify what I meant by 60% anime, 40% social.
Stalk, I really need to know... Are you saying that there was no intention to have any sort of Christian imagery in Evangelion at all?
Teannin, the imaginery being there was intentional, but the religious meaning behind it (like the others have said, Lance of Longitus being the spear that staked Jesus would be kind of... out there)
Ruccus put it in the way I apparently couldn't, and is what I mean to say.
So is the upcoming live action movie going to be some sort of side story?
Because I can't imagine how they'll fit much of the main story into a single movie.
To call it upcoming would be stretching it, they don't even have the budget for it yet, much less a cast, crew, director, story.
With regards to the Evangelion movie, last I heard they had arranged around $60 million of the $100-$120 million budget they wanted, but aside from Weta (LotR, King Kong, etc.) being linked to the project not much else is known. I have a feeling that the live-action Evangelion movie won't get the green light unless James Cameron's live-action Battle Angel Alita is a success.
I guess I should also restate my interest in the movie, so I don't get taken the wrong way about it. I could care _less_ about the religious tenets. I'm one of those aethists who loves Christian imagery, occult tie ins, and even some of the dogma, from a FLAVOR perspective. So for me, I didn't need any real explanation of the Christian imagery, it was there, it was evocative, and that's all I really needed to know.
Its the last 2 episodes that spoke to me, that made me go "wow, what IS he trying to say"? By the end of the last episode, part of me thought that the entire ending was just some cathartic release for the director about his unhappy childhood and his own search for personal identity.
Anyways, to restate, I'm not arguing what the religious references really mean. Because I honestly don't care, and see the ultimate futility of doing so. Isn't the word "Angel" used in the series a mistranslation anyways? As the guy who introduced me to it said when I tried to get debried (:P) "What does it all mean? Who cares? It makes for a better story when someone doesn't fill in all the gaps and tie off all the loose ends."
So yeah. Some people seem to take the attitude that if you can't nail down what an anime is really trying to say, then its not worth even considering if it even had some deeper message in the first place. Where the hell is the fun in that? The attitude just annoys me is all, same as it does when I watch a regular movie and people reject trying to assign any meaning to it. If we didn't try to find meaning in the things we watch, then we might as well all just watch DBZ.
Btw, is the "Lance of Longinus" the actual bibical reference? I've seen the "Spear of Roginus" described as the weapon that killed jesus. (ironically, again by the japanese) Is that translation thing, or just another instance of Japan using christian references carte blanche?
Would this be a bad time to mention that one of the characters in Utena is called 'Dios' and another is called 'Akio' (which translates to 'Morningstar', more or less) ;)
Ok, after making myself watch EoE, I think I better get what some people were getting at in this thread. Good, *******, lord. Its like every frame was designed to drive the over-analyzing otaku to the brink. At one point I was feeling like someone was just running their religious/occult rolodex looking for symbols and things to mention to warp things out of proportion even more. I dunno, the imagery was fantastic, but there was so much that I sort of mentally turned off from trying to understand any of it.
Have to say, EoE was more fun to watch, but I liked the original ending better. Gendo Ikari was a better character because of it.
(And apologies for the bump. Just one of those things when you get done watching it you feel like you need to exercise something).
DarthEnderX
06-28-06, 02:37 AM
Still wanna kick Shinji in the throat.
I want to make one thing clear on Evangelion's status. I think people are confusing me a little bit, but I'm not sure. Shin Seki Evangelion is one of the four social revolutions of Anime in Japan. The fourth one, that is. The keyword here is social.That reminds me, what were the other 3?
And WHY?
The last three Shakai-gensou are as follows:
Uchuu Senkan Yamato also known as Space Battleship Yamato or Space Cruiser Yamato or Star Blazers in the USA.
The second is Kidou Senshi Gundam also known as Mobile Suit Gundam.
The third is Cho Jiku Yosai Macross also known as Super Dimensional Fortress, Macross
And the fourth is Shin Seki Evangelion also known as Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Keep in mind this is based on Japanese response, not American. As for why, I'll write a summary later today when I have time.