View Full Version : Lolicon within Anime (split from Recommendations)
Gunslinger Girl might be a little too loli for some people.
There's nothing sexual about Gunslinger Girl. You have terminally ill girls who are operated on to be used as tools by Social Welfare Organization to assasinate bad guys. While they don't have true freedom, they would have been dead had the Social Welfare Organization not intervened. Rico is the perfect example. She's treated like an attack dog, yet she has no problem being treated like dirt because it beats lying motionless in her hospital bed waiting to die.
The relationships between the handlers and the girls are well done without having any of the handlers treating their girl as a sexual object.
Gunslinger Girl might be a little too loli for some people.
I think you're confused. I used to get Gunslinger Girls and Grenadier mixed up. Gunslinger girls is pretty straightforward.
It's hard to draw a line between loli and not for many people. Gunslinger Girl is another show that's on the grey area. Nowdays, young girls in anime are generally turned into moe~ or sexualized (two things which are very different). Looking at them as attack dogs who aren't sexualized at all is fairly easy for a viewer inexperienced in the whole moe~ and lolicon genre.
For those experienced with it, it's easy to find loli aspects of it. For instance, the fact that these little girls worship the ground their handlers walk on. They have feelings that border on love for them, and outside their killing, they are very cute and normal. That's nearly a lolicon's wet dream. And a suprising large amount of people get turned off by this aspect, disregarding any deeper meaning Gunslinger Girl has.
While the show itself does not sexualize them, a good amount of viewers do. Many otaku consider the girls moe~ as well. However, this is an issue for mostly the type of people who wouldn't understand Gunslinger Girl. The more intelligent people can see past superficial things such as that and find the story for what it's trying to tell, not what the viewers fantasize it to be.
I hope that provides some insight into what notwen means.
Stalk hits it right on every single count, though I disagree on the point about "intelligent viewers". No, there is absolutely nothing explicitly sexual about Gunslinger Girl. But lolicon doesn't have to mean that the girls are sexualized, per se. If we're being honest with ourselves, a lot that went into Gunslinger Girl is there to appeal to the lolicon otaku. I'm not judgemental about people watching Gunslinger Girl, or what their intentions are in watching it. But I'm completely realistic about some of the creative forces driving the show, and yeah, that's a little bit of a turn off for me.
And Grenadier is not loli at all. Pretty on the H side, sure, but not loli.
Yeah notwen, you're right on the "intelligent" count. After I posted it, I was thinking to myself it was a poor choice of words. I thought perhaps "forgiving" of viewers, as in the viewers more willing to ignore what the intent may be. I didn't intend to imply only stupid people would find fault in it.
Yeah notwen, you're right on the "intelligent" count. After I posted it, I was thinking to myself it was a poor choice of words. I thought perhaps "forgiving" of viewers, as in the viewers more willing to ignore what the intent may be. I didn't intend to imply only stupid people would find fault in it.
It's cool. :thumb
With regards to lolita in anime, if you generalize enough any anime which includes a girl and an older guy can be misconstrued as 'lolita' because a pervert can find interest in it. In my mind grouping Gunslinger Girl into 'lolita anime' is like grouping Pac-Man into violent video games; it takes something out of context to fit a certain label.
Actually there wouldn't have to be a pervert insterested at all, as a older guy with a under age girl is the most basic definition of it all, but this is a little more specific. ;) Generally, when you talk about loli anime, though, you are talking about it with respect to young childlike girls. And like I said, it's not just about knowing what other fans might fantasize about with it, it's being realistic about intent on the part of the creators.
Sollon Darkmoon
09-05-06, 04:52 PM
Did you all just go geeky ;)? =P.
Actually there wouldn't have to be a pervert insterested at all, as a older guy with a under age girl is the most basic definition of it all, but this is a little more specific. ;) Generally, when you talk about loli anime, though, you are talking about it with respect to young childlike girls. And like I said, it's not just about knowing what other fans might fantasize about with it, it's being realistic about intent on the part of the creators.
I think we have vastly different interpretations of what 'loli' means. To me loli is a pedophiliac situation displayed on the screen or insinuated through the storyline. Your interpretation seems to be simply a young girl that a viewer can take and put in a sexual situation, in which case yes, Henrietta might be attractive to a pedophilliac. I completely disagree with the thought that the director gave any serious thought to pandering to the loli crowd; Henrietta is a young girl because it's part of the plot. Her age is part of the reason for her feelings, just as Triela is older and a lot more sure of how she feels about her situation and her handler.
Sorry Ruccus, but I have to mention the manga-ka behind Gunslinger Girl is an lolicon doujin writer before turning professional under another pen name. So it would be a pretty long shot to say they are girls for some higher purpose. While this does not detract from the show at all, it is a point to be brought up.
However, I've spent hundreds of hours discussing lolicon with hundreds of people, and the only conclusion I've ever found was that everyone has a different perspective and thought on it, and there's no right answer. It's a highly personal subject that provokes many reactions, sexual or moral, in a large variety of anime and it's rather impossible to make the other do anything but agree to disagree.
Split off from the other thread since it may merit it's own discussion.
DarthEnderX
09-05-06, 05:42 PM
Does Stalk have Mod powers for the Anime forum?!
Sollon Darkmoon
09-05-06, 05:43 PM
Does Stalk have Mod powers for the Anime forum?!
Ya where have you been :P?
Your interpretation seems to be simply a young girl that a viewer can take and put in a sexual situation, in which case yes, Henrietta might be attractive to a pedophilliac.
No no no, I didn't say that at all. In fact I never called GG an out right loli manga/anime. I didn't. Nor did I say that loli means there is a young girl that a viewer could take and put in a sexual situation... let's face it, if the viewer is that perverse, they'll do that to any show there is a young girl in.
What I said, is that, generally speaking, when it comes to anime, loli usually involves young childlike girls, not just merely "underage". It can, but usually it's about little kids.
Regarding GG, what I specificly said, is that it's a little too loli for some people. That's not saying that it is out and out a loli anime, that would be stupid. But with a passing familiarity on the subject, you can see the influences are there. I've known people who were a little creeped out by certain aspects of it who aren't that familiar with anime at all.
Now I'm sorry you can't see them. Truth be told, I wish I couldn't see them, I'd be able to enjoy the story a little more.
I completely disagree with the thought that the director gave any serious thought to pandering to the loli crowd; Henrietta is a young girl because it's part of the plot. Her age is part of the reason for her feelings, just as Triela is older and a lot more sure of how she feels about her situation and her handler.
Try the original creator, as per Stalk's post. And you know what's funny? I didn't even know that the guy had his roots in loli doujin before this.
loli, loli, loli, get your adverbs here!
Gunslinger Girl would have been a different story had Henrietta been an adult because of the whole Henrietta/Guise relationship combined with Elsa's actions (though just thinking about it, putting the girls into their mid twenties with more danger and a badass villain could make for an interesting sequel). I've always thought that GG was sold as a 'girls with guns' story, in which the director changed the focus from simple action with a bad guy for the good guys to eventually defeat, to characters with real emotions who get involved in action scenes but still have to deal with their lives between action scenes.
The reason I wrote 'serious thought' was because I feel the director may have put a minor consideration into it (I don't know the director's motives and I don't underestimate the power of people trying to get a bigger profit out of something). I don't judge an anime based on the writer's previous works though, so I'm judging GG based on what I see on the screen and in the 13 episodes I didn't see nearly enough to remotely consider a lolicon label.
Well yes, it would have been a different story, but was it neccessary for them to all be girls? Arguable, yes, there's a more emotional impact with having young girls. The title was sold as a girls with guns show, and nobody's implying that it was labelled as a lolicon's show.
The only implication being made was that someone may be put off by what can be considered a lolicon aspect on it by people sensitive to the subject. For another closely related example, take the title "Strawberry Marshmallow" as it's known in the USA. Barasui, the original creator, has the same roots as Yu Aida. This show is marketed as a moe~ show, but it's far easier to see the lolicon influences in this show. So easy, I'm willing to bet that even casual viewers would be turned off by it.
Fans of moe~ could argue all day long how Strawberry Marshmallow is not part of the lolicon category, as the girls are not sexualized, exploited or otherwise degraded in any way. But that's where the hidden draw is coming from. Gunslinger Girl does not, in any way, suffer from that large amount, but those sensitive to the subject would find fault in it for that, even if it's insignificant or unrelated.
I do agree with you that Gunslinger Girl really isn't lolicon in any way, but I can see how people upset with the overabundance of lolicon and moe~ in Japan currently would be very sensitive to it.
DarthEnderX
09-06-06, 01:07 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. I was too busy rubbing one out to Cardcaptor reruns.