Prestige class opinion

[EZ_Kanian]

I am playing a Hobgoblin Fighter in my friends campaign and have been trying to decide on a prestige class early so that I can build up for one. For a little background info on this world, Hobgoblins were once a very powerful nation a long time ago who controlled tons of air ships. Then a host of orcs came and swarmed them, destroying their empire and scattering all those that survived. There are also about 8 houses of Hobgoblins and I chose a house that is extremely loyal to the empire and fights with honor and will not back down from anyone. Oh and this is also a villainous campaign where we are not exactly "evil" but are out for our own gains, so my character is lawful evil. I was just curious what you guys would think would be a good prestige class towards.

Oh yeah and my feats are as of 3rd level power attack, improved initiative, hold the line, and combat reflexes.
stats are 18,18,20,12,16,12. I was thinking Tribal Protector is the closest type of personality as my character but I am still unsure.

[EZ_Matheren]

heheh. a hobgoblin knight of the old empire (or whatever it's called, from sword & fist) would be kinda interesting and sorta fits with the history of your race.

[Nenjin]

Tell them you want to be a Slayer, see how they deal with that

[EZ_Kanian]

The problem with being a knight in this world is that the DM made that prestige class special, I had to be a knight of the old human empire if I was to become a Knight protector of the great kingdom (I believe that is what you were talking about) and seeing as how I am not human I am unable to become that class. And what is a Slayer Nenjin? What book can I find info on that?

[EZ_LordOfChains]

Lawful Evil warrior person... hrmmm...

You ever think about trying out for Disciple of Dispater?

Iron Hews/ Greater Iron Hews (+3/+6 bonus to attack/damage respectively usable 1x per point of constitution per day)

Iron Power +1/+2 (respective constant bonus to attack and damage as well as increased critical threat ranges)

Iron body/Iron Skin 1x/day each

Read up on it in Book of Vile Darknes Edited by: LordOfChains at: 4/26/03 2:34:13 pm

[EZ_Ruadh Rofessa]

Blackguard from the DMG. Think of him as a fallen paladin, but instead of serving a diety or church, all they have to be is visited by an evil outsider. You could be a Blackguard in service to your clan or Hobgoblin empire. Like a paladin you will recieve some divine spells, an auro of fear, be able to add your charisma mod. to saving throws, and command undead. Its a pretty nifty little kit, and one that will published in PHB 3.5E when it comes out. And the Epic Handbook has progression for it past 10th. I think you need for feats to have cleave and sunder, and some knowledge of religion. Check it out.

[Caowyth]

Players aren't supposed to read the Book of Vile Darkness. Freaking meta-gamers...

[Nenjin]

In 3rd ed. it's a player/DM supplement. Go figure. In 2ed, it just blew your character's mind and soul when he read it.

[Caowyth]

Actually, if you read the forward in the book it pretty much says that under no circumstances should you allow your players to read it.

This is the third edition Monte Cook book.

[Nenjin]

Never really agreed with that mindset in writing books and supplements. I mean, reading the DMG doesn't cause players to burst into flames, and anyone that does more than skim a module is probably planning on running it. Making supplements that specify that players SHOULD NEVER READ THIS BOOK, is doubly stupid. Players walk by the rack, see The Book of Vile Darkness are going to pick it up and start reading.

[EZ_Matheren]

I don't think there's really any problem with never-will-dm players reading the dmg, but the monstrous manual is a whole 'nother story.

[Nenjin]

"Ok, you guys are walking and you come up on an unusually large tree"

"What's it look like?"

Looks pretty typical, except that it has long vines hanging down from the top"

flip....flip....flip...

"It's a Hangman Tree, isn't it?"

".......You @#%$"

[EZ_LordOfChains]

Solution to Players memorizing the Monstrous Manual: MAKE YER OWN CRITTERS!

Nuthin' like a beholder with troll regeneration abilities to totally @#%$ up your players l33t tactics.

[EZ_Arafain]

Or, even better, take the physical appearance of one monster and the special abilities of another and swap them. The first time the party encounters a medusa that looks just like a troll, they're in for some serious wake-up calls. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls, now of Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear with new and improved BACKSTAB MOD DAGGER!
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein

[Nenjin]

I had some players get beligerint with me with I threw Goblyns(Ravenloft Goblins) at them, and they are nothing like your typical goblin. 4 HD. People kept going "What? I just did 15 points of damage to it, he's still up? Man, what are these, frickin' super goblins? Hrmph. The wizard was especially pissed because 2 of his 4 spells just failed, and he was of the opinion that anything that resembles a goblin just CAN NOT have that kind of spell resistance. Sometimes my players really piss me off.

[Llabak Tharr]

LOL Nenjin, if they complain about that stuff, next time you play just hand them out experience and loot at the beginning of the session and tell them that since they obviously don't want a challenge, you may as well skip the whole combat part and go right to the exp and lewtz0rs

[Nenjin]

Nah, killing them is much funner for me. They fought off almost 30 of these things in a 5x100 corridor last adventure. They think they are pretty hot @#%$ now. I'm going to have players crying when their characters age 1d4x20 years from the gaze attacks of my 4th magnitude ghosties.

[EZ_LordOfChains]

I'm the kind of person that will give people the most lenient character generation possible (1 score is auto 18, no scores below 10, and a nice way of determining HP at each level)... and then I try as hard as I can to kill them off in game.

The bastards were good... not even multiple 8th level fighters could stand against 'em for long...

[Nenjin]

I haven't found a balance between challenging players, and dropping the mother @#%$ A bomb on them. Problem is, regardless of who dies in my group, they get a little sullen, as they should, but still, kind sucks when you are enjoy bashing players and they get all pissy and sit there and sulk.

[EZ_Arafain]

The secret? Never, ever let on that you feel bad about a player's death. Gleefully cackle as the vampiric half-illithid minotaur devours the character's brain. If you don't show that you sympathize, they'll get over it faster. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls, now of Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear with new and improved BACKSTAB MOD DAGGER!
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein

[Llabak Tharr]

My favorite quote from one of the local RPGA head-honcho types.

"I'm not against the PCs...I'm *for* the NPCs!"

[EZ_Swipey]

Or have your monsters attack with intellegence.

"Low Intellegence" monsters average what? 8 int? That means the brilliant ones among them probably hit 14 to 16 int. Put the brilliant ones in charge and have the rest act accordingly, unless they encounter a situation that isnt covered by the instructions the brilliant guy gave them.

Seasoned adventurers laugh and mere kobolds, even in great numbers. Have those kobolds pull out nets, lasso, torches, and flasks of oil and the laughing stops....


Or have the kobolds have a number of pre-set up traps that they can lead persuing warriors over. Nothing like having your lead warrior drop into a tigerpit lined with feces smeared stakes. Even if he lives through the initial drop, he is out of immediate action and has to worry about sepsis in the longer term. Follow this with frequent enough minor ambushes that prevent the cleric from memorizing cure disease and the warrior will start getting pretty worried...


Or, since the power of the seasoned adventurers allows them to defeat many weak foes near simultaneously, have the weak foes attack them from ambush in ones and twos, always using missile weapons directed at the soft gooey center (the mage)

Or... have a special kobold "suicide squad" who's job it is to
decoy the adventurers onto a much tougher monster that lives locally.

There are lots of possibilities to make weak monsters more challenging...

[DarthEnderX]

Funny you should bring up kobalds while mentioning ways of making monsters surprise your players.

I find the best way of making monsters get the upperhand is not number, but character levels. Remember than any intellegent monster can gain levels in classes.

Sure they thought they were all badass womping all those kobalds in that mine. Until that level 15 kobald rogue/assassin/shadowdancer comes after them for vengence
on their way home and pushes their @#%$ in.

I find it works great on small packs too. Rather than throwing 40 orcs at someone when they are in the boss room I find its better to throw a half dozen orcs than are also like level 4 warriors. They have alot more hp, some feats, and they hit you alot easier.

This is especially fun when you do this to non-humanoid monsters, cause the players NEVER expect it. Case in point, Worg barbarians.

[EZ_Telurinon]

3 kobolds. With Bows. And poisoned arrows. In a corridor with murder holes and arrow slits.

They have been told by their master that when intruders show up, they follow this sequence of events.

First, pull the rope that rings a bell in the barracks below. Not a loud bell...just enough to alert those below that there is trouble.

Second, all three fire their bows at the LEAST ARMORED person in the group of intruders. If there are multiple people with no or light armor, they fire at the one FURTHEST back.

After firing, they run to the next station, and repeat steps 1 and 2 if the intruders continue in. Repeat as needed for the legth of the corridor.

Hitting a wizard with a couple poison arrows/javelins is a good way to slow them down. Meanwhile, the alerted forces deeper underground are setting up ambushes, barricades, traps and other nasty, nasty stuff.

[Nenjin]

So far, my players have relied ALOT on their spell slinger. And everytime I've gone after him(the spellcaster) I've nearly killed him. He is starting to think I have some sort of grudge, or intrest in targetting him specifically.


Best way I've found to use semi-intelligent monster attacks is to flank the PCs. When they are attacked from both sides(or all!), they lose the luxury of being relaxed, because at any time, I could decide to start coordinating attacks, as opposed to dicing off for my target amongst reasonably viable ones.

[EZ_Alderic]

Quote:
"Ok, you guys are walking and you come up on an unusually large tree"

"What's it look like?"

Looks pretty typical, except that it has long vines hanging down from the top"

flip....flip....flip...

"It's a Hangman Tree, isn't it?"

".......You @#%$"


No it isn't

That would be my answer should a player ever try something like that.
And since I have a feeling I know the book better than the player that's just flipping through it (which is true for the people I usually play with, since some of them can't even read english well enough, or don't want to waste that much time) the player is now in trouble.

See, I'll make sure the mob is as different as possible from what he expects to see.
If he attemts to exploit some weakness that his character has no way of knowing then the mob will absorb the attack and get healed, or reflect it, or be immune to it in some other way.
After all you can't expect to see everything in a book, right ? /evil grin

Quote:
I find the best way of making monsters get the upperhand is not number, but character levels. Remember than any intellegent monster can gain levels in classes.


My personal best was an encounter with some goblins, or kobolds, I cannot even remember which ones.
The party attacks them, after all, a few (3-4) goblins have never scared anyone.
Well, the first goblin was a fighter, lvl 9 wielding 2 short swords and a belt of giant str (that was in 2nd ed, where such a belt would give him str 24), then there was this wich doctor that had cast stoneskin on the fighter, and a couple of lvl 7 thieves.
The problem were those 6 other lvl 11 thieves that had already surrounded the party.....