BESM?

[EZ_Snibbs Quickinshot]

Anyone else try out the BESM (Big Eyes, Small Mouth) RPG? It's pretty much an anime mod for DnD 3rd ed. A few friends and I just started trying it out and we're having tons of fun with it.

Our characters started as highschool students (an actual class), got transported to a different dimension a'la the generic anime plot, and got into a big ass battle again according to generic anime plot. Haven't really done anything as my character is a shapechanger (we started as lvl 1 students, lvl 2 any other class in BESM PHB) but I did get to shrink down to the size of a grain of sand and hide on the caster's shoe!! Seems to have the potential to have hilarious mission settings and still be serious. I suggest it to anyone looking at an RPG to try out.

[EZ_Matheren]

haven't tried out the d20 version, but I bought the original years ago and never got to play it heh. they also made addons of sailor moon and some other stuff I think

[EZ_Lady Kaylan]

Didn't even know there was a D20 version out now (what's with everyone whoring themselves over to this system?).

I have the Revised 2nd Edition book (uses what they call the Tri-Stat system I believe) along with the Trigun and Hellsing resource books. Haven't had the chance to really look through them yet, let alone sit down and play

Oh well!
I'm currently playing: Summoner 2

[Nenjin]

Quote:Didn't even know there was a D20 version out now (what's with everyone whoring themselves over to this system?).

Been asking myself that for the last 1.5 years. Damn Wizards of the Coast is spreading like herpes.
"They will come back, come back again, as long as the Red Earth rolls. He never wasted a tree or a leaf, why should he squander souls?"

[Krimzan]

When I saw the title of this thread I was thinking it was much more interesting than it really was.

Bondage Enchantment and Sadomasicism?

[EZ_Arafain]

Why is d20 the new hotness right now? It's very simple.

Playing d20 requieres all kinds of funky dice, from d20s to d%s to d8s to d4s to d12s. You have to buy these dice. And guess who produces them?

D20 is mainly a way for WotC to sell more dice and periphials, just like the way 3.5 is a way for them to sell more books.

However, unlike most people, i don't think this is particularly despicable - why does everyone seem to think an exceptionally successful business plan is something evil and vile? -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls, now of Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear with new and improved BACKSTAB MOD DAGGER!
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein

[EZ_namelessshaman]

Actually WOTC makes little of its money on its dice. Most of its money comes from Magic and Pokemon (still).

d20 is strong, and people are "whoring" to it because of the very nature of its creation. it was created to be a "common" game system. The network of d20 players is HUGE, and if you know how to play dungeons and dragons, you basically already know how to play a large variety of game styles an genres. If you move somewhere new you will have a much easier time finding a game you already know how to play. In creating this network d20 succeeded.

[Nenjin]

We've been down this road before, so I will keep it short and sour. I don't think they are 'evil and manipulative', but they are a massive, massive corporation that produces like 70% of all RPGs right now. You lose certain things with companies like that, like selecting artists you like instead of the ones you are told you are going to us. Like writing flavor text in your own voice, rather than a souless disertation on how to play a game.

D20 games are very much alike, because the rules are so similar. I don't recieve the feel of the game individually anymore, someone brings me a D20 game, and it can be frickin' werewolves with psychic powers and in a world of light, and all I see is a D20 rules conversion. There is essentially nothing different about them. I like different systems because they can find new ways(mechanically speaking) to express and idea. When all games are running on the same core ruleset with some slight variations, expression becomes stale eventually.

[EZ_namelessshaman]

On the subject of d20 BESM itself, its a very interesting system with many interesting possibilities.

[EZ_namelessshaman]

I agree with you to a certain extent Nenjin, different mechanics for different worlds. However you can use the d20 system and create a completely different feel.

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed uses the d20 system, but recreates a lot of its from the ground up and creates a totally different feeling game. It puts a lot of the flavor back into d20 fantasy, something many people think regular dnd lacks.

Also, d20 is common because it IS one set of rules there are people willing to try other genres because its d20 and they don't have to learn _another_ game system. I like learning new systems and mechanics, but there are a lot of people who are sick and tired of it.

[EZ_Vorax S]

My friends have been playing a Tri-stat BESM Game for about 2 months now. We started with about 7 people and 2 died we added 3 more people now we are down to 4 people still alive and we are about to fight a BAD(Big Ass Demon). It's fun stuff, a good break away from D20 systems cause all you need is 2 d6! Plus you don't "level" up per say. You gain bonus points to put into stats, skills or abilities. We are playing in a made up Shogun era type world. With alot of desert towns and a couple of mountian ranges and so far we've only found 1 forest and it was in habited by a race of 3 foot tall elfs. I made my charecter alot like Hiei from YuYu Hakasho. It is easy to make your charecter's a little more then overpowered in BESM through if your GM isn't watching closely on what his players spend thier points on through out the game. I started off pretty weak cause I put most of my points into a special weapon attack and into some skills so I had low HP but over the course of the 2 months I've put alot of points in HP bumping things and it kinda shocked my GM when he hit me for 110 from a fallen angel and I didn't die hehe.

Anyway I give BESM 2 thumbs up and defintly fun time if your group enjoys Anima like mine does.

[EZ_Lady Kaylan]

Quote:
Playing d20 requieres all kinds of funky dice, from d20s to d%s to d8s to d4s to d12s. You have to buy these dice. And guess who produces them?


We make so, so, so very little off dice. Besides which I'd have to say 75% of all dice we sell are the standard D6 with pips for people who lost their dice to Monopoly, etc. Also, damn near all dice we carry are made by a company called Chessex.

While the idea behind D20 compatability is peachy, it makes for lots and lots and lots of bad products Not to mention it 'causes the single biggest problem 2nd E had ... too many @#%$ books! Oh well ... just grumpy 'cause I've been playing WE Star Wars again lately and it so kicks D20s ass all over the place.


I'm currently playing: Summoner 2

[Marbh]

D20 L5R versus Old L5R, Old L5R wins
D20 Deadlands versus Original Deadlands? OG Deadlands wins. How can you beat a rule system for a old west horror game that used poker decks for a lot of the mechanics?

[Nenjin]

I'm not going to disagree and say that good stuff can't be built from D20, it can. Except that "D20" is now a trademark. I see D20 on a game with it's own system, and I know that a game has been adapted to D20, not the other way around. D20 is a company now, with it's own goals, visions, and ideas, being applied to practically everything. If some company wants to build a system like D20 into a game, that's cool. When D20 is it's own company, going to other games and saying, create your game on our system, something is lost in the translation. Sacrifices to aspects of the rules need to be made to have it fit the open ended mentality of D20, and I'm just not comfortable with tons of my favorite games and systems being discontinued because they are being rebuilt on a new system.

And personally, I LIKE learning new systems. I like the challenge of figuring out what works for me. I don't enjoy when a system(like GURPS) is so universal, you get into the same mentality every time when you are generating a character. Kind of the way you might get bored thinking about a new D&D character when you've done it 18,000 times.


edit

Quote:Not to mention it 'causes the single biggest problem 2nd E had ... too many @#%$

The saving grace was, they were all supplements. If you wanted to get into Campaign worlds, the supplements really blew up in your face, but to play a straight game of 2nd ed. all you needed were the PHB and the DMG. Spells and Magic, Skills and Powers, The Complete " " Books, Legends and Lore, Book of Artifacts, ect.... All were optional supplements. Were only there if you cared enough to hear someone else's take on the game and what it contained.
Edited by: Nenjin Darkeyes at: 8/15/03 10:28 am

[EZ_namelessshaman]

I like the d10 roll and keep method too, and the flavor of original L5R, 7th sea, and deadlands are hard to beat. They use the advantage of binding the system mechanics to the world and vice versa. This works really well for some games, but it doesn't always work well for home brew games, and that turns away some people.

yes, d20 is a trademark. But the OGL and the trademark license are two different thing. Arcana Unearthed (a product I really like if you couldn't tell) is OGL but it is NOT d20 trademarked product, you won't see the symbol on the book. It's worth taking a look at your local game store if you have time.

Quote:If some company wants to build a system like D20 into a game, that's cool.
Basically what Arcana Unearthed did.

Quote:and I'm just not comfortable with tons of my favorite games and systems being discontinued because they are being rebuilt on a new system
and I agree.
However, there are some different models here. In one you dual stat your books, like L5R and 7th sea. They have lots of world information and then include game mechanic stats for both the d10 system and d20 system. Thus the game continues on.

Or , like deadlands, shane hensley refuses to do stuff in d20 (as is his right and that's fine), and there is not enough support to continue the original system. Your game line is discontinued. That's no fun.

I like new systems too. I enjoy working them out. But unfortunately I play with people who do not find enjoyment in such things. The mechanics help often define the flavor, and baseline d20/dnd is often missing that flavor. Fortunately I play with some good gm's that inject a lot of flavor back into the game (in one game world, halflings are looked very much down upon, ranging from slaves and servants, to home cooked meals on feet).

Quote:Kind of the way you might get bored thinking about a new D&D character when you've done it 18,000 times.
Absolutely. Did I mention Arcana Unearthed does d20 all new races and class and lots of flavor? /grin

As far as too many books.
Yeah, there are quite a few, many are crap, some are quite good, better than WOTC's even. And you don't need ANY of them to play. But you can play with just the PHB, DMG and MM. You might even be able to do away with the DMG and MM. Heck , you don't even need the books to play, you can play with just the SRD.

[EZ_Lady Kaylan]

Aye, we're on the same page there, Nenjin, about D20.

The reason I don't like too many books is that it can add one of the worst players to your groups ... the supplement whore! The one that owns every single book and has scoured through each one for the most rediculous class, the craziest spells, and every single rule that will benefit them in some way.

Yes, I do have much hate for those people. Death is too kind for them!

[Nenjin]

I had the problem after coming back to D&D from a 6 year break was...I was lost amongst the supplements. I had players saying "can we use skillz and powerz" and "but there is this cool cleric/monk from the complete cleric's handbook" or "spells and magic has so many more spells!!". Bleh. Having to re-read all that stuff just to see if I felt it was crap or not was a chore. I basically told my players that it was ok to do skills and powers, but to assume that 70% of all other supplements are off limits. Since then I've incorporated Spells and Magic, Skills and Powers, ect.....

But supplement Nazis can bite me. I've had players opt not to play because I wouldn't let them play the equivalent of a prestige class in 2nd ed. with all these stupid extra powers from supplements. /shrug My real group has been with me since I was 9 years old playing my first rogue. They know the difference between core books and supplements. Anyone else new is coming into the group is surrounded by people who all the supplements, because they have ideas and information as much as rules additions, who opt not to use the majority of what is in the books. My greatest joy is giving a slow smile to a supplement nazi and simply saying 'not in my world, bub'.

[Marbh]

You get people who want to multiclass-minmax-and have spells that solve all their problems, using items that are damn near relics. I am an old school DM, My word is law. I will treat you right and give you a fun time, but don't expect me to let you be Conan at lvl 1, or Gandalf at lvl 3. You gotta earn it.

[EZ_Snibbs Quickinshot]

Ummm....wow, holy thread hijack batman! And any system should be fine as long as your DM isn't terrible. I know no one in my group will let people supplement buff their characters for any mission. It's just common sense, the only reason to own supplements is because you don't feel like being creative and so you pick and choose what is good and discard what is stupid and bad from each supplement.

The good thing about d20 is it's a very simple system. Right now I'm trying to make a Shadowrun mission for my friends and, though not a ridiculously complicated system, there are so many freaking rules for this and that and whatnot that it's taking me a loooong time to get through the book so I can make sure I know what to do in as many situations as possible that my players get into. I like the d20 system because it is simple enough to learn quickly and start playing while flexible enough that you can still make good campaigns and play games that do have a feeling of being something new.

In the end I guess it's all personal preference, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with d20 that wouldn't have happened to d6 or d10 or d11.5 or whathaveyou. It just so happens that d20 beat the other systems to the punch and also got all the crappy, and many of the good, RPG's.

[Nenjin]

Wrong sir, GURPS beat everyone, the system just wasn't flexible enough to adapt to everything. And Wizards of the Coast was just a small gaming company then, not the multi-million dollar company that can buy smaller independent companies and re-sell their product with a new face and a different concept, the concept that everyone, regardless of how smart or stupid, can understand the system.

I'm not trying to knock people who like their rules simple, but Shadowrun, D&D, Cyberpunk, tons of games have lots of rules, but are not difficult or cumbersome when compared to stuff like, oh, I don't know, Star Fleet Battles, or some of the other table top space battles. Or even Warhammer for that matter. A good DM screen makes all those rules very, very, very easy to deal with. Games like D&D had problems because it felt the need to define a lot of stuff, like how far you can throw a stone, or the amount of crushing damage a 220 pound man causes from a 40 foot drop, while leaving other stuff very conceptual, like combat, facing, all that jazz. If you want a total cluster @#%$ of rules, try reading on psychic combat in 2nd ed., oy vey.

D20 is meant to be picked up and mastered in a very very short time. That's fine. It works for many people. I don't like my systems that simple. For me, it's like playing FF1 compared to FF3, or FF7. FF1 is simple, quick, easy. FF3 takes time to learn how to properly use Espers, what armor combination gives you the best magic defense when combined with an esper, counter attack + genie glove makes you uber ect......
While video games may not be a great example of what I mean, it works.

[EZ_Snibbs Quickinshot]

uh......miniatures != RPG. You can't compare the rules of Warhammer and the like to the d20 system, they are totally different things. But even if you did compare the two, Warhammer takes minutes to get the feel for, so far Shadowrun has taken me days because of the varied environments for battle. When you can fight in the Matrix, in Astral Planes and in the real world but with guns, melee and magic it gets kinda confusing. =\

[Nenjin]

Quote:Warhammer takes minutes to get the feel for,

Nooo, it takes minutes to read. It takes a while to get the hang of playing and rules discrepancies, at least in 2nd ed. Warhammer. Shadowrun IS more complex, I'll give it that, but I didn't think it was that difficult of a system.

[EZ_Arafain]

I got hooked on GURPS =(

Starting off with a 20 skill in Karate on my "melee badass" character has made for some interesting combat situations thus far.

Lady Kaylan - if you don't make much money off of dice, where does most of the income come from? I'm guessing sourcebooks, but I thought I'd throw out the question anyway. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls, now of Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear with new and improved BACKSTAB MOD DAGGER!
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein

[EZ_Lady Kaylan]

Magic: The Gathering. Other TCGs (Star Wars, Pokemon, LotR ... and soon Neopets and The Simpsons). Board games. Card games. RPG books. Chess sets (now those are good money!). Toys now ... (thanks Hasbro! :"> )

Dice are such a small small part of what we have ... and as I said ... 6 siders are the main sellers.

[EZ_Arafain]

I suppose that explains why TCGs have seen such an explosion over the last five years or so. Thanks very much for the info. Edited by: Arafain at: 8/17/03 9:04 am