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Toprem
01-24-08, 10:57 PM
For those unaware of what's been going on for a couple of days now, Anonymous has been spearheading a massive assault against the Church of Scientology via DoS attacks and has been spreading out documents that CoS does not want made available to the public. Since the start of this, several other boards have joined in on the fun to do their part against the scourge of Scientology.

http://www.knbc.com/news/15132220/detail.html?dl=mainclick

Hacker Group Declares War On Scientology

POSTED: 4:30 pm PST January 24, 2008
UPDATED: 7:13 pm PST January 24, 2008

LOS ANGELES -- An anonymous group of hackers, fittingly known as "Anonymous," has declared war on the Church of Scientology.

Video

In a video posted on YouTube on Monday, the group appears to be upset over the way the church tried to eliminate a video of Tom Cruise from the Internet.

"We shall proceed to expel you from the Internet and systematically dismantle the church of scientology in its present form," says the video's narrator. "We are anonymous. We are legion. We do not

forgive. We do not forget. Expect us."

The Cruise video in question made headlines last week after copies continued to surface on the Net. In the video, Cruise praises Scientology's virtues and speaks in great detail about the religion. He discusses his faith while the soundtrack to his "Mission: Impossible" films plays in the background.

In the video, which was made in 2004, Cruise said, "There is nothing better than ... going out there and fighting the fight and, suddenly you see, things are better."

Editors at celebrity gossip Web site TMZ.com said that the video was posted Monday on YouTube.com but quickly removed. Since then, more copies have surfaced.

The "Anonymous" video claims the attack is for the good of mankind.

"Anonymous has therefore decided that your organization should be destroyed, for the good of your followers, for the good of mankind and for our own enjoyment," says the video's narrator.

The church said the video was an internal production and meant for members of Scientology.

A Web site set up for the project directs members to download denial of service software that bombards Scientology.org with fake requests, slowing it down.

The site also urges members to make prank calls, publicize Scientology documents the church considers proprietary and fax endless loops of black pages to the church's fax machines to waste ink.

This is not the first time the Church of Scientology has dealt with a denial of service campaign. ReligiousFreedomWatch.org once offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to prior threats.

Transcript Of 'Anonymous' Video

"Hello, leaders of Scientology. We are Anonymous. Over the years, we have been watching you. Your campaigns of misinformation, your suppression of dissent, your litigious nature, all of these things have caught our eye. With the leakage of your latest propaganda video into mainstream circulation, the extent of your malign influence over those who have come to trust you as leaders has been made clear to us.

Anonymous has therefore decided that your organization should be destroyed. For the good of your followers, for the good of mankind and for our own enjoyment, we shall proceed to expel you from the Internet, and systematically dismantle the Church of Scientology in its present form.

We recognize you as serious opponents, and do not expect our campaign to be completed in a short time frame; however, you will not prevail forever against the angry masses of the body politic. Your choice of methods, your hypocrisy, and the general artlessness of your organization have sounded its death knell.

You have nowhere to hide because we are everywhere. You will find no recourse in attack because for each of us that falls, 10 more will take his place

We are cognizant of the many who may decry our methods as parallel to those of the Church of Scientology. Those who espouse the obvious truth that your organization will use the actions of Anonymous as an example of the persecution of which you have for so long warned your followers. This is acceptable to anonymous. In fact, it is encouraged. We are your SPs. Over time, as we begin to merge our pulse with that of your church, the suppression of your followers will become increasingly difficult to maintain. Believers will become aware that salvation needn't come at the expense of their livelihood. They will become aware that the stress and frustration that they feel is not due to us, but a source much closer to them.

Yes, we are SPs, but the sum of suppression we could ever muster is eclipsed by that of your own RTC.

Knowledge is free. We are Anonymous. We are legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget.

Expect us."



This is some of the best stuff on the net right now, I am amazed to see this many people pooling together to try and make a dent in that ****ing cult.

The open letter:
Open Letter to Scientology by Anonymous
”Dear 'Church' of Scientology leadership, by now you have certainly become aware of us and our actions.
We have commenced our assault upon your institution and would like to take this moment to enlighten you.
We are Anonymous, you might know think of us as merely a hacker group, but we are much more. We are the
protectors of knowledge, we are the 'internet hate machine'. We stand for great justice, we stand for truth. We
embody the most fundamental principles of freedom: the right to ask questions, the right to knowledge and
the right to dissent. Your church caught our eye a long time ago, with your misinformation, your
brainwashing and inability to face your critics. We have waited long to act but have finally chosen the time,
not because this time is special but because it amused us the most.

The average scientologist: do not fear Anonymous. Do not hate us. We are on your side, we are on the side of
truth. We are not here to persecute you, we are here for your liberation. Over the years, it is unlikely you
could have missed the information about your church which has flooded the internet. The secrect documents,
the reports of wrong doing and the tales of abuse and brainwashing. Has the constant cover up of these acts
by your church ever made you sit and think – What if I am in the wrong? After hearing your church
leadership's censorship attempts and damage control, have you ever followed up yourself to find out the
truth behind the information? Behind all the allegations? Have you ever, in your religion which prides itself
on providing answers, ever asked a question about its validity? Whenever in history access to knowledge has
been removed, Anonymous has provided it. Had there never been dissent from the collective concience of
everybody and of nobody at the same time would still be thinking the sun orbited the earth. Why have you,
the average scientologist, never asked the obvious questions for the betterment of your whole community?
Why do you fear to find out the truth? Anonymous does not fear, we wish to aid you in your struggle for the
ultimate truth about your own institution, to expose it for its lies.

We do not wish for you to live in fear of your leaders. Fearing they'll run off with 200million of your money
in the way of LRH, fearing you'll face the fate of many of those who have tried to leave or tried to destroy
your institution from the inside. Why do you think you church has covered up and never talked to its
members about some cases which truly made its methods public? Cases like Lisa McPherson, Josephus A.
Havenith and the famour Jeremy Perkins? The right questions are not being asked – but now, with the help
of Anonymous is the time to ask those questions.

Anonymous respects the efforts of critics such as Jeff Jacobsen and scientology's other enemies, big and
small. However, recognize that this is the 21st century. Your methods are admirable and have achieved much
and you deserve all the praise anon can deliver, but our beliefs in how this must be handled differ.
Anonymous feels that sometimes, to get the attention of someone you must punch them in the face. Fools are
the media who think the first parts of our attack were more than attention grabbers. Our mission is to
eradicate scientology, for them to revoke their ways and to disband. Do you honestly think us so naive we
believe a mere flood of DDoS attacks would do anything more than stir the hornets nest? No. Our true
means of destroying the CoS are beyond that. Information is our weapon. We want to make sure that there is
no doubt in the mind of any of the followers of the CoS what their church hides from them, what their church
does and what their church really stands for.

CoS members, we bid you ask yourselves this question:
Has the Church of Scientology really provided you with answers, or merely skewed the question?
We are Anonymous
We are legion
We do not forgive
We do not forget”

Edit: another news site picked the story up http://video.nbc11.com/player/?id=209221

Here's an interesting video about the crap that they do http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-126281853779690652.

Currently it seems at least seven of their eight target sites are down http://www.lightpostawareness.com/, the main site for scientology (not currently on that list) seems to be one hard one to topple, it's not stayed down for long but has been knocked down a few times.

injijo
01-24-08, 11:12 PM
For those unaware of what's been going on for a couple of days now, Anonymous has been spearheading a massive assault against the Church of Scientology via DoS attacks and has been spreading out documents that CoS does not want made available to the public. Since the start of this, several other boards have joined in on the fun to do their part against the scourge of Scientology.

http://www.knbc.com/news/15132220/detail.html?dl=mainclick



This is some of the best stuff on the net right now, I am amazed to see this many people pooling together to try and make a dent in that ****ing cult.

Man. The church of Scientology has such an incredible influence on modern hollywood. So many movies today are designed to enforce and approve Scientology concepts. From things as small as movies portraying pyschologists as idiots to things as big as the allegory that was "Happy Feet", the CoS has secretly immersed itself into our culture.
I would love to see the "church" toppled.

Toprem
01-24-08, 11:21 PM
Wait... what was wrong with Happy Feet?

injijo
01-24-08, 11:35 PM
Wait... what was wrong with Happy Feet?
It was a veiled propganda film for Scientology. It basically teaches that god is false, and in reality all evil and good in the world is caused by aliens.

DarthEnderX
01-24-08, 11:45 PM
I don't care which side I'm on because whatever the war on scientology is about you know its gonna have mecha!

Trolo
01-24-08, 11:58 PM
Scientology ain't going anywhere to some nerd-attack. Maybe if they could keep it up for 20 years, but I doubt they have that sort of patience or conviction. But good luck to them anyways.

Cantatus
01-25-08, 12:05 AM
Xenu is back...


and this time...



he has...



INTERNET ACCESS!

Nenjin
01-25-08, 02:58 AM
*hurls fistfuls of cash at Cantatus*

deuce
01-25-08, 06:45 AM
Can we have them start a war on all religion after this one? I'd like to see the christians and catholics go down next. I mean that crazy cult thinks the world was created in only a few days.

Marbh
01-25-08, 08:48 AM
This just in from funnyordie.com, the Jerry O'Connel parody of the Tom Cruise video.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3f716ffebe

Hordolin Awanagin
01-25-08, 08:53 AM
It was a veiled propganda film for Scientology. It basically teaches that god is false, and in reality all evil and good in the world is caused by aliens.

And I thought it was about a penguin that wanted to get laid.

Caowyth
01-25-08, 09:09 AM
That parody was great.

I watched the whole of the original. It's creepier because he's so serious about his craziness.

Marbh
01-25-08, 09:51 AM
That parody was great.

I watched the whole of the original. It's creepier because he's so serious about his craziness.

He has the laugh and handclapping down perfect.

Hummerlein
01-25-08, 05:32 PM
This just in from funnyordie.com, the Jerry O'Connel parody of the Tom Cruise video.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3f716ffebe

anyone have link to tom cruise original?

Chromite
01-25-08, 05:48 PM
anyone have link to tom cruise original?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

Hummerlein
01-25-08, 06:37 PM
thanks. this is interesting to me.

DarthEnderX
01-25-08, 09:40 PM
I got a question.

When I think of "religion" I think, "bunch of crazy stories wrapped around moral lessons that you're supposed to follow to be a better person, but inevitably nobody does".

Does Scientology have any of that "make you a good person" lessons, or is it just the crazy stories?

LordOfChains
01-25-08, 10:02 PM
I think the only thing they have is a sort of 'get cleansed of bad thoughts quick' mechanism... that costs out the ass.

DarthEnderX
01-25-08, 10:14 PM
Cool. **** em then. They aren't a real religion.

Cantatus
01-26-08, 12:21 AM
I got a question.

When I think of "religion" I think, "bunch of crazy stories wrapped around moral lessons that you're supposed to follow to be a better person, but inevitably nobody does".

Does Scientology have any of that "make you a good person" lessons, or is it just the crazy stories?

Um... I guess you could stretch things to say they do. The goal of the e-meters and cleansing is to rid yourself of the negative aspects of your life. So, in that way it is making you a better person, but I'd say it's closer to making you a "good person" in the way a psychologist does rather than a priest (hence Scientology's issues with the mental health profession).

Loreleli
01-26-08, 04:25 AM
by far, the best parody of them is:
Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung%27s_Doomsday_Defense_%28Millennium%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung



If you haven't seen it, see it. Brilliant!

"Selfosophy", it saved me, it can save you! hehehe.

Trolo
01-26-08, 10:16 AM
Actually, from what I can tell, Scientology is based primarily off Freudian psychoanalysis. That's related in some ways to psychology (psychology grew largely out of the American psychoanalytic movement, which was an empirically-heavy bastardization of Freud's ideas), but it's certainly not the same. Real Freudian psychoanalysts fall in some murky realm between, or entirely outside, "priest" and "psychologist"--they have some shared functions of each without being either. They are concerned with the total package of a human being--making them healthy by banishing historic emotional demons, which is essentially what Scientologists are doing. Psychologists do something similar, but they attempt to operate solely on the person's mind--priests, again, similar, but attemping to operate on the person's soul. They each believe that these avenues are the correct avenue to cure the whole person. Freud, however, spoke of healing the "psyche," (Greek word which translates roughly to "soul"), but he never meant anything metaphysic or spiritual by it--he meant the holistic personhood, and certainly not the "mind" as it is often translated into English. "Mind, body, and soul" might be the closest approximation we have in English, though again the last one tentatively introduces some spirituality which wasn't necessarily implied in Freud's ideas.

Schmuck
01-26-08, 04:56 PM
Didn't L Ron Hubbard say that there were recorded instances of scientologists increasing their mass by up to 30 pounds by having big thoughts, since matter is energy? makes sense to me.

Toprem
01-26-08, 11:49 PM
Didn't L Ron Hubbard say that there were recorded instances of scientologists increasing their mass by up to 30 pounds by having big thoughts, since matter is energy? makes sense to me.

Mass isn't measured in pounds [/geek]

DarthEnderX
01-26-08, 11:57 PM
Um... I guess you could stretch things to say they do. The goal of the e-meters and cleansing is to rid yourself of the negative aspects of your life. So, in that way it is making you a better person, but I'd say it's closer to making you a "good person" in the way a psychologist does rather than a priest (hence Scientology's issues with the mental health profession).That's not really trying to make you act like a better person. It's "do this, and you'll be a better person automatically, even if you're a **** the rest of the time."

Which isn't really a guideline for how you should live your life, its an excuse for living your life shitty.

"Hey, its not my fault I suck. Its alien ghosts inside me. I don't have to try and be nice to people or not hurt others, I just have to perform this ritual and I'm O.K."

Qutsmnie
01-27-08, 12:20 AM
Mass isn't measured in pounds [/geek]

That is some bad geeking! What do you think mass is measured in...? Seriously if I tell you to tell me the mass of this baseball what number and units would you tell me? The unit is pounds on a different scale. Even though pounds and kilograms are used as a statement of weight there are also used properly as a measure of mass.

Someone at wiki agrees with me:

"The pound or pound-mass (abbreviation: lb, or sometimes in the United States: #) is a unit of mass used in the imperial, United States customary and other systems of measurement."


This message has been brought to you by the Qutsemnie Society for better Geeking.

DarthEnderX
01-27-08, 12:28 AM
Now Top has to go kill himself.

injijo
01-27-08, 12:35 AM
Actually, from what I can tell, Scientology is based primarily off Freudian psychoanalysis. That's related in some ways to psychology (psychology grew largely out of the American psychoanalytic movement, which was an empirically-heavy bastardization of Freud's ideas), but it's certainly not the same. Real Freudian psychoanalysts fall in some murky realm between, or entirely outside, "priest" and "psychologist"--they have some shared functions of each without being either. They are concerned with the total package of a human being--making them healthy by banishing historic emotional demons, which is essentially what Scientologists are doing. Psychologists do something similar, but they attempt to operate solely on the person's mind--priests, again, similar, but attemping to operate on the person's soul. They each believe that these avenues are the correct avenue to cure the whole person. Freud, however, spoke of healing the "psyche," (Greek word which translates roughly to "soul"), but he never meant anything metaphysic or spiritual by it--he meant the holistic personhood, and certainly not the "mind" as it is often translated into English. "Mind, body, and soul" might be the closest approximation we have in English, though again the last one tentatively introduces some spirituality which wasn't necessarily implied in Freud's ideas.

Scientology is barely based on pyschology. In fact, psychologists are the chief enemy of scientology. Scientologists want you to believe their ideas are based in some sort of rational thought or theory, but they aren't.
This is the reason that within the last decade or so so many movies have portrayed pyschologists as idiots or frauds or both. Scientologists want to ruin the reputation of pyschologists as a whole so they can better enfore their retarded agenda.

Jaesin
01-27-08, 07:00 AM
Mass Units in Imperial = Slugs. Pounds is simply weight, which differs greatly at various altitudes and environments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_%28mass))

Sorry, we just went over this in thermodynamics.

Use the ****ing kilogram please america.

Worst part? The unit for mass accelerating per inch in imperial is the "blob"

Seriously? Blob? DIAF.

Can we ask Anon to declare war on the imperial measuring system next please? :D

notwen
01-27-08, 09:30 AM
"The pound or pound-mass (abbreviation: lb, or sometimes in the United States: #) is a unit of mass used in the imperial, United States customary and other systems of measurement."


Generally speaking, the pound in question when people use the word is not the pound-mass, it's the pound-force, which is gravitationally dependent. The general pound is a force determined by mass and gravitational acceleration; ie, weight. Mass is not a force, it's a measure of the material making up the body.

The person you quote from wikipedia isn't actually wrong... it's just not a frequently used unit of measurement. The only time I've ever had cause to actually use it was in engineering and physics classes.

Trolo
01-27-08, 10:54 AM
Like I said, psychology =/= psychoanalysis. And from what I've read, it seems that Scientology is largely based in psychoanalysis (I've even seen that stated directly in at least one place). Hubbard was an accomplished hypnotist, among other things.

Koru
01-27-08, 02:18 PM
I wonder, is it more honest or less honest when your religion's founder was known and admitted to being a hypnotist?

Just saying, knowing that does explain a lot about them - but it also does make you wonder about some of the other equally kooky religions.

Hummerlein
01-27-08, 02:25 PM
hubbard was a chaos magician. yes.

Qutsmnie
01-27-08, 02:37 PM
Generally speaking, the pound in question when people use the word is not the pound-mass, it's the pound-force, which is gravitationally dependent. The general pound is a force determined by mass and gravitational acceleration; ie, weight. Mass is not a force, it's a measure of the material making up the body.

The person you quote from wikipedia isn't actually wrong... it's just not a frequently used unit of measurement. The only time I've ever had cause to actually use it was in engineering and physics classes.

And how come you dont get mad when people sell oranges by the kilo measured on a scale that detirmines weight? Just curious why pounds means force to you, and when someone pulls something off a scale and tells you kilos you are sure they understand that is mass when they just used a scale and didnt mention gravity at all...

My issue is not with the physics. Its with the word police.

notwen
01-27-08, 04:33 PM
And how come you dont get mad when people sell oranges by the kilo measured on a scale that detirmines weight? Just curious why pounds means force to you, and when someone pulls something off a scale and tells you kilos you are sure they understand that is mass when they just used a scale and didnt mention gravity at all...

My issue is not with the physics. Its with the word police.

Mad? Uh, I don't think I was getting mad at anyone. I just joined a discussion on physics terminology, which itself was largely about an academic difference anyway. Which was sort of my point. Of course someone pulling something off the scale doesn't appreciate the difference, nor is there much reason for them to. For all intents and purposes, for the vast majority of people alive, mass and weight are functionally the same thing as they will never in their lives experience mass without the effect of gravity upon it. That doesn't mean they ARE the same thing. Like I said, purely academic discussion here.

And honestly, this instance of "word policing" was just a silly bit by Top. Not more no less. He didn't mean anything by it. He was just being silly. No big deal yo. Let's all chill out, shall we?

Mithrilhall
01-28-08, 06:34 PM
Can we have them start a war on all religion after this one? I'd like to see the christians and catholics go down next. I mean that crazy cult thinks the world was created in only a few days.


I could only wish!

Matheren
01-28-08, 08:18 PM
I wonder, is it more honest or less honest when your religion's founder was known and admitted to being a hypnotist?

Just saying, knowing that does explain a lot about them - but it also does make you wonder about some of the other equally kooky religions.

I remember reading a story about how the whole Scientology thing was started as a bet over a pool table with some of his college friends, apparently other sci-fi writers.

Basically a "I bet you $100 that I can write a 'credible' Bible for some wacky new religion and get people to buy into it" sort of deal.

I'm sure just some urban legend, but I could definitely believe it.

Xynn
01-28-08, 08:43 PM
I remember reading a story about how the whole Scientology thing was started as a bet over a pool table with some of his college friends, apparently other sci-fi writers.

Basically a "I bet you $100 that I can write a 'credible' Bible for some wacky new religion and get people to buy into it" sort of deal.

I'm sure just some urban legend, but I could definitely believe it.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster would like a word with you...

injijo
01-28-08, 09:13 PM
I wonder, is it more honest or less honest when your religion's founder was known and admitted to being a hypnotist?

Just saying, knowing that does explain a lot about them - but it also does make you wonder about some of the other equally kooky religions.
He was also a known drug addict, polygamist, wife beater, and was called a virtual pathological liar by a judge.

Lenilya
01-28-08, 09:13 PM
I go to school with a bunch o' bible college kids, training to become missonary pilots.

It's amazing how angry and frustrated they get when I bring up FSM. When one of the people i was working with last week heard me mention it, he just looked at me with a blank expression and started ranting about how stupid it was and how it was absurd that people even talked about such a nonsense thing.

I said that I agreed, that people really should stop talking nonsense, then asked him offhand how his Bible studies were going.

He got pissed.

Gannab
01-28-08, 09:55 PM
"Hey, its not my fault I suck. Its alien ghosts inside me. I don't have to try and be nice to people or not hurt others, I just have to perform this ritual and I'm O.K."

That's not really a far stretch from "I'm a sinner because of my fallen nature inherited from Adam, so I gotta just accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and then my spirit will be reborn and I will have the nature of Christ and I'm O.K."

I'm not sure how Scientology is any less of a religion than the others. Sure they might be scamming people, but the Church certainly did the same in the past - buying indulgences to rid your sins isn't much different than buying a session to have your engrams removed.

Jaesin
01-28-08, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure how Scientology is any less of a religion than the others. Sure they might be scamming people, but the Church certainly did the same in the past - buying indulgences to rid your sins isn't much different than buying a session to have your engrams removed.


It's because the leader of scientology is an admitted science fiction writer... meanwhile the bible could have been some of the best popcorn literature in rome at the time... so who knows.

DarthEnderX
01-28-08, 10:03 PM
That's not really a far stretch from "I'm a sinner because of my fallen nature inherited from Adam, so I gotta just accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and then my spirit will be reborn and I will have the nature of Christ and I'm O.K."

I'm not sure how Scientology is any less of a religion than the others. Sure they might be scamming people, but the Church certainly did the same in the past - buying indulgences to rid your sins isn't much different than buying a session to have your engrams removed.While that is certainly the case, there's also the parts of the bible that are, like, the 10 commandments and other stories with moral lessons.

Sure, alot of the book is that kinda ******** that comes with all religions, but there's good lessons in there too.

The problem is half the people ignore the important lessons. And the other half follow the WHOLE book, including the ******** parts.

So in the end you have two groups of crappy people.


My question was, does Scientology have any of the moral lesson stuff, or is it just the ********?

injijo
01-28-08, 10:14 PM
While that is certainly the case, there's also the parts of the bible that are, like, the 10 commandments and other stories with moral lessons.

Sure, alot of the book is that kinda ******** that comes with all religions, but there's good lessons in there too.

The problem is half the people ignore the important lessons. And the other half follow the WHOLE book, including the ******** parts.

So in the end you have two groups of crappy people.


My question was, does Scientology have any of the moral lesson stuff, or is it just the ********?
No, scientology has no moral lessons. In fact, the point is to get as rich as possible regardless of what you have to do to other people.

It is basically a pyramid scam quasi-based on religion.

Gannab
01-28-08, 10:23 PM
I remember reading a story about how the whole Scientology thing was started as a bet over a pool table with some of his college friends, apparently other sci-fi writers.

I heard the legend a little further, where it was Ray Bradbury and Frank Herbert who took the bet, and that that's where both Dune and Scientology came from. :pulid


My question was, does Scientology have any of the moral lesson stuff, or is it just the ********?

Hmm, I dunno. I mean they believe that by applying their 'technology' they are making you a better person, so as a self-fulfilling prophecy one would do good things.

But really, that's a lot like most religions. When I look at religions I don't see just moral lessons. Any culture has it's moral lessons. Religion usually goes further into a scheme of how to become a good person through more mystical means. Also, there is usually lots of rules and the taking of money. I wish all we had were the moral lessons... ;-)

injijo
01-28-08, 10:25 PM
I heard the legend a little further, where it was Ray Bradbury and Frank Herbert who took the bet, and that that's where both Dune and Scientology came from. :pulid




Hmm, I dunno. I mean they believe that by applying their 'technology' they are making you a better person, so as a self-fulfilling prophecy one would do good things.

But really, that's a lot like most religions. When I look at religions I don't see just moral lessons. Any culture has it's moral lessons. Religion usually goes further into a scheme of how to become a good person through more mystical means. Also, there is usually lots of rules and the taking of money. I wish all we had were the moral lessons... ;-)

All scientology has is the money taking.

Dragynphyre
01-29-08, 06:18 AM
I still claim that Scientology is a cult. Charismatic leadership; takes your money; encourages you to either convert, or split from, friends and family; uses brainwashing techniques like sleep deprivation; don't question, just follow...

From a few accounts I've read, it's almost like Stockholm syndrome - you get abused, and grow to love your abuser

I just can't believe that anyone could possibly get to the part where they start telling you about Xenu and not go "ok, now that is ridiculous, I'm outta here", though I wonder how many people who have poured their entire life savings into Scientology and gotten to that point, and have had just that reaction ... and they keep with it because they don't want to appear to have been fools. Or, if they can stifle their disbelief long enough to get to the upper levels of the cult, they can share in all the money that the lower levels are pouring in to the organization?

Gannab
01-29-08, 01:00 PM
Or, if they can stifle their disbelief long enough to get to the upper levels of the cult, they can share in all the money that the lower levels are pouring in to the organization?

I'm guessing that, though I don't know what level they give you the Xenu story. I still wonder about Tom Cruise... how much does he actually believe? How much money is he making off it?

Trolo
01-29-08, 01:26 PM
Third level is Xenu--not actually that high.

From what I understand, the Xenu story is really rather insignificant in the whole Scientology experience, it's just been blown up by opponents to make them look ridiculous (which they do plenty enough of themselves)--it's not that much more ridiculous than a lot of the historical creation myths. It just has shifted image paradigms--metaphorical science fiction rather than metaphorical naturalism.

Ponzi
01-29-08, 03:02 PM
Here's an interesting example of a Scientology teaching, the contact assist (http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH6_3.HTM).

You really don't need to resort to the Xenu story to find something ridiculous about Scientology.

Lilum
01-29-08, 03:07 PM
OK so I hit my thumb with a hammer I'm supposed to pretend to repeatedly hit it with a hammer until the pain goes away?

WTF?

Nymm
01-29-08, 03:36 PM
Isn't what they are describing basically the same thing as desensitization, which they use on small kids sometimes to prevent avoidance after a psychological trauma?

It's basically the extreme version of "get back on the horse"

Koru
01-29-08, 04:04 PM
Of course it isn't Nymm!!! Don't you know psychology is EVIL?!?! How dare you compare scientology concepts to such a heinous profession of alien mindcontrol?!?!

Trolo
01-29-08, 04:14 PM
It doesn't sound all that ridiculous to me--although I'd say that in most cases, it's probably just a way to distract yourself from the pain until it goes away by itself. But I do believe it could probably allow instantaneous pain relief in a person who had done it enough times and really believed that it would work. Pain is routed through the brain, so if you can train yourself to have some conscious control over your pain mechanisms, you can learn to surpass them--Buddhist monks do it on a regular basis.

Nymm
01-29-08, 04:18 PM
Oh my dear Koru, you misunderstand. Psychology isn't evil...Psychologists are evil!

Psychology is just a thing, psychologists on the other hand are full of engrams and ghosts and other forms of wierd alien cooty. Remember folks, for the low low price of All Your Money you can be rid of your alien cooties.

Lilum
01-29-08, 04:26 PM
Remember folks, for the low low price of All Your Money you can be rid of your alien cooties.

If you replace "alien cooties" with "original sin", you'd have pretty much every Christian church.

Nymm
01-29-08, 04:29 PM
If you replace "alien cooties" with "original sin", you'd have pretty much every Christian church.

The difference is that scientology wants all your money now. Most christian churches are in it for the long con and only want like 10% at a time.

Cantatus
01-29-08, 05:08 PM
Third level is Xenu--not actually that high.

From what I understand, the Xenu story is really rather insignificant in the whole Scientology experience, it's just been blown up by opponents to make them look ridiculous (which they do plenty enough of themselves)--it's not that much more ridiculous than a lot of the historical creation myths. It just has shifted image paradigms--metaphorical science fiction rather than metaphorical naturalism.

Considering how much attention the Xenu story gets nowadays, I sort of wonder if Scientologists who get that high actually even are taught it anymore. With as secretive as they are, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to say, "Oh that? We knew the media as attacking us, so we made up the story knowing that the media would use it to make us look bad. We got them off our back and preserved our real secrets!"

Ponzi
01-29-08, 05:14 PM
Look through more of that site I linked. It's a mixture of completely obvious "insights", new agey babble, baseless assertions, third rate philosophy, and an extra helping of jargon. It's Freudian in the sense that the Oedipus Complex is just as true as the tone scale (http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH4_1.HTM) is.

The comparisons between Scientology and Christianity are taking things a bit far. If every Christian church were run by prosperity gospel swindlers reading from Chick tracts, it would be a good comparison, but that's hardly the case.

Now, if all there was to Scientology were these kinds of teachings, it would merely be laughable, but the ridiculous number of legal threats they make combined with the horror stories and financial exploitation of its members make it more deserving of criticism than the average Christian church.