New poisons - Discuss

[Caio]

Seriously, Ngreth Thergn you deserve a raise imo.

[Rahiem]

Ngreth,
Would it be possible to somehow take the poison component from a vendor or dropped piece, say Grade A Goramar for instance, and somehow concentrate it into Purified Grade AA Goramar (or whatever grade you want) with a few combines of other vendor items? Or take a Dry component and mash it up in my mortar with x, y and z juice and make it a Fresh component (or other grade)? Since I have 300 skill in Make Poison and PM3 shouldn't I be able to figure out how to do that? :)

Or even make some quest that once you complete you are able to do this, or get a special item to assist in the process combine like "an ancient poison makers domaflicky"?

[Durden]

Ngreth,
Would it be possible to somehow take the poison component from a vendor or dropped piece, say Grade A Goramar for instance, and somehow concentrate it into Purified Grade AA Goramar (or whatever grade you want) with a few combines of other vendor items? Or take a Dry component and mash it up in my mortar with x, y and z juice and make it a Fresh component (or other grade)? Since I have 300 skill in Make Poison and PM3 shouldn't I be able to figure out how to do that? :)

Or even make some quest that once you complete you are able to do this, or get a special item to assist in the process combine like "an ancient poison makers domaflicky"?

Sounds like a GREAT use for the old sketches/master sketch.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Well of course it is possible, most anything is possible. I could win the lottery Saturday!

I do not think that upgrading vendor components will be the direction I am going though, and at this point there is no differentiation between the components that drop and are vendor sold to say to the system "this is a drop so it is OK to upgrade it"

[Rahiem]

Are you talking Lottery or Megaball chances?

How about concentrating or diluting the finished poison then? Dropped components aren't that plentiful even in the bazzar, so you just take what you can, but then you have different kinds of finished product that don't stack.

I put the finished poisons (lvl 40) in a coffin bottle with my master sketch, and some xxx fluid (80) to make them all the same level (80). Presto!

[silenceisgolden]

Are you talking Lottery or Megaball chances?

How about concentrating or diluting the finished poison then? Dropped components aren't that plentiful even in the bazzar, so you just take what you can, but then you have different kinds of finished product that don't stack.

I put the finished poisons (lvl 40) in a coffin bottle with my master sketch, and some xxx fluid (80) to make them all the same level (80). Presto!

"So your saying there's a chance!" ( dumb and dumber :)

I am jsut hopefull we'll see somewhat of an increase on drop rates. even a nudge ehre and tehr would be nice but the muscimol especially.

[Tivia]

Just gonna throw this out there.

I think the % rate of drops might be fine, IF the stuff was a global drop like Shaman stuff. However given the extremely limited nature of the types of mobs our stuff is limited too, that makes the drops fairly significantly hard to get.

Alternative proposal - Make the drops more global and less mob type specific.

For example;

Current -


Nigriventer - (Spider)
Goramar - (Scorpion)
Mamba - (Snake)
Taipan - (Snake)
Choresine - (Insect + Frogs & Birds)
Muscimol - (Mushroom/Rogue)
Oleander - (Plant)
Larkspur - (Plant)
Caladium - (Plant)
Laburnum - (Plant)
Privit - (Plant)
Delphinium - (Plant)

Proposed -


Nigriventer - (Insects)
Goramar - (Insects)
Mamba - (Animals)
Taipan - (Animals)
Choresine - (Insect's and Animals)
Muscimol - (Plant's and Humanoids)
Oleander - (Plant)
Larkspur - (Plant and Humanoids)
Caladium - (Plant)
Laburnum - (Plant and Humanoids)
Privit - (Plant)
Delphinium - (Plant)

Basically what I tried to do here was two fold. Instead of only allowing drops off a specific mob type, I generalized. The reason for this generalization is due to the lack of diversity in the upper levels now. Back in original EQ there was a large diversity of all species of mobs at various levels that allowed for specialized mob type drops. However with the trend in "Themed" expansions where the expansion is largely one type of a select group of mob types, this really highly limits the potential for drops due to an extremely limited selection of mobs to choose from. Factor in server competition on these mobs and you end up with very few of certain types of ingredients ever being amassed in a reasonable quantity. Secondly I tried to pick out the most valuable items to rogues of all levels and make those the most diverse and easy to obtain. For example; Our aggro debuff which we all need massive amounts of, slow and snares for soloers and small groups all reside on the largest available numbers of mobs. While the more specialized stuff remains somewhat more limited but still more available then current.

[Gkortiz]

Curious, since I didn't see it mentioned in the patch notes but thought it was mentioned last week, was the aggro issue addressed with this patch?

[Garet Jax]

Either you don't raid or you guys are slow. There are times where I have the "Crossed swords" for over an hour in raids. Heck if I am doing a lessons burn for AA there is Zero downtime. I am well aware of the difference between in combat and the ooc timer, don't even attempt to insult my intelligence here. If he moved it to in combat being no fresh applications, he might as well throw the entire system out the window. Fortunately this is a moot argument because ngreth wouldn't do that.

Now that we have cleared tower, I dont understand whats the big deal, there is plenty of time to do reapplies on poisons inbetween combat during trash pulls, especially tower. Just admit u dont like the nerf and you were having fun procing 30k dd all over the place. At least be honest about it. Poisons have added a fun factor to the game we have long missed and it is a shame to see the nerfing of it at this moment. It was very situational at best anyways.

[Tivia]

Now that we have cleared tower, I dont understand whats the big deal, there is plenty of time to do reapplies on poisons inbetween combat during trash pulls, especially tower. Just admit u dont like the nerf and you were having fun procing 30k dd all over the place. At least be honest about it. Poisons have added a fun factor to the game we have long missed and it is a shame to see the nerfing of it at this moment. It was very situational at best anyways.

I already said that, but I balanced that with it was extremely situational and not something that could be done enough to warrant the change. I mostly liked it from the being able to yank aggro that was more my thing. The rest eh whatever. But I still maintain the cast time on dd poison should be instant to allow for changing.

[silenceisgolden]

Curious, since I didn't see it mentioned in the patch notes but thought it was mentioned last week, was the aggro issue addressed with this patch?

wasn't in the patch messaege didnt get fixed. he stated earilier it would be unil the next big patch whihc is in like a week or 2 i thinjk?

[Ngreth Thergn]

Curious, since I didn't see it mentioned in the patch notes but thought it was mentioned last week, was the aggro issue addressed with this patch?

wasn't in the patch messaege didnt get fixed. he stated earilier it would be unil the next big patch whihc is in like a week or 2 i thinjk?

We did not do spells in that urgent patch, and spells are needed to fix that. And since I needed items changes as well, I waited to even submit the changes until yesterday after the patch was complete so I would not disrupt the testing process for the patch. Since I submitted the changes yesterday, they SHOULD make it in the full patch in the beginning of May.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Just gonna throw this out there.

I think the % rate of drops might be fine, IF the stuff was a global drop like Shaman stuff. However given the extremely limited nature of the types of mobs our stuff is limited too, that makes the drops fairly significantly hard to get.

Alternative proposal - Make the drops more global and less mob type specific.

For example;

Current -


Nigriventer - (Spider)
Goramar - (Scorpion)
Mamba - (Snake)
Taipan - (Snake)
Choresine - (Insect + Frogs & Birds)
Muscimol - (Mushroom/Rogue)
Oleander - (Plant)
Larkspur - (Plant)
Caladium - (Plant)
Laburnum - (Plant)
Privit - (Plant)
Delphinium - (Plant)

Proposed -


Nigriventer - (Insects)
Goramar - (Insects)
Mamba - (Animals)
Taipan - (Animals)
Choresine - (Insect's and Animals)
Muscimol - (Plant's and Humanoids)
Oleander - (Plant)
Larkspur - (Plant and Humanoids)
Caladium - (Plant)
Laburnum - (Plant and Humanoids)
Privit - (Plant)
Delphinium - (Plant)

Basically what I tried to do here was two fold. Instead of only allowing drops off a specific mob type, I generalized. The reason for this generalization is due to the lack of diversity in the upper levels now. Back in original EQ there was a large diversity of all species of mobs at various levels that allowed for specialized mob type drops. However with the trend in "Themed" expansions where the expansion is largely one type of a select group of mob types, this really highly limits the potential for drops due to an extremely limited selection of mobs to choose from. Factor in server competition on these mobs and you end up with very few of certain types of ingredients ever being amassed in a reasonable quantity. Secondly I tried to pick out the most valuable items to rogues of all levels and make those the most diverse and easy to obtain. For example; Our aggro debuff which we all need massive amounts of, slow and snares for soloers and small groups all reside on the largest available numbers of mobs. While the more specialized stuff remains somewhat more limited but still more available then current.

Overall I just plan to increase the drop rate on humanoids. But not in this first patch, will be for the next one. Only because it requires alot of testing that resources currently do not allow for.

While I can do some of what you suggest, it is actually not quite flexible enough to do all of what you mention. Some of it yes. and there would be some odd weirdness as well. "insect" and "plants" are used inconsistently for example, and trying to include it by race would make too large of an "if" statement.

[Tivia]

Overall I just plan to increase the drop rate on humanoids. But not in this first patch, will be for the next one. Only because it requires alot of testing that resources currently do not allow for.

While I can do some of what you suggest, it is actually not quite flexible enough to do all of what you mention. Some of it yes. and there would be some odd weirdness as well. "insect" and "plants" are used inconsistently for example, and trying to include it by race would make too large of an "if" statement.

No worries at all, just trying to throw some suggestions out there based off what I am seeing thus far. Thanks for the response on it though.

I "tried" to keep some /cringe roleplay aspect in my suggestion since many are concerned that things make sense. I figured "Insects eat plants, and Humanoids pick plants" so those could be reasonably contrived. I realize that the suggestion is far from a optimal solution, I mostly wanted to point out the lack of mob diversity being the major obstacle to us at this time imo.

[Kudladar]

The drops are way too difficult to obtain. The rate or as previously said how "globally" they drop doesn't make sense.

This was the reason I never took up poisons prior, I wasn't going to sit in OBF for 4 hours to get 1 drop or random zone/mob. Which was the case and is the case. Time/Effort/Reward isn't balanced.

[songsa]

The drops are way too difficult to obtain. The rate or as previously said how "globally" they drop doesn't make sense.

This was the reason I never took up poisons prior, I wasn't going to sit in OBF for 4 hours to get 1 drop or random zone/mob. Which was the case and is the case. Time/Effort/Reward isn't balanced.

Not counting the high failure on poison combine, even with max trophy 300 +15% and all AA i have nearly 1/2 failure on level 85 poison combines, and there are 2 combines to do to make 1 poison.

[Kudladar]

Right, and that 1 component drop that I got, I failed on the combine or extraction anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for what and how the new poisons are and have done which is why I have spent the time finally since the release of the poisons to get from 170 to 300 and get the Peerless now. But, I can't see people using the high end poisons that much based on the farming factor. If the failure rate is going to be as high as it is with the current drop rate, then make the components either 20-100pp each and vendor purchased. That would balance it a little more for me, yeh, it costs a little bit more to make but I don't have to spend countless hours for something that I am only going to be able to do 1/2 the time. Keep in mind that I am going to fail 50% of the time JUST in extraction alone and then another 50% again for actually making the poison.

I'm not a math expert and not going to try and figure out how many I would actually make based on 5 drops (basically a whole days, 8+ hours, worth of drops).

[Padgin]

Just as a point about the drop rate of the higher level components, and bazaar scum in general...... I have yet to see any of the higher level utility components (maybe I just have'nt got to where they are yet).

But apparently there are a few BS merchants (not all vendors mind you) that have a large number for sale on the bazaar on my server. And, like with the Aug components, charging an arm an a leg for them! Mind you, how do these IDIOTS think in any form of reality, or dreamland I am going to pay 10,000 pp for a component I have to do multiple combines on? And while on the topic of bazaar scum..... maybe the status needs to be changed on all vendors to NPC or PVP type status, so we can attack them like regular NPC vendors? Imagine the look on the face, and the crying at the keyboard of this plague on players? maybe then this scum woul have to reconsider thier value system if every time they come back to thier mule and find him dead? (one can wish, right?)

Come on now, the drop rate has to be worth it, I'm still farming Old FoS, and I get one poison drop in 80 mobs, give me a break! Now, if I have to beg to get a high level group togeather to try and farm the higher level components for the utility poisons, how is that going to make me more desirable in a group situation....

Don't get me wrong, I am loving the new poisons, and I am in awe of the work and time Ngreth has put into this system (thanks again Ngreth!) but I have been farming since the new poisons went live, killed hundred and hundreds of snakes, birds, and scorpions (probably closer to well over a thousand), and have only about 15 grade a purified, 3 grade aa purified, and 15 grade a gormars. This almost makes me wish for the drop rate we had for the heart sting venom! :crysquint:

[Eleena Transient]

They should also change the yields. Make the extraction step yield 5 not 1, and make the poison yield 4 not 1.

Assuming a 50% success on each step, 10 drops would generate 50 poisons. At upper levels a poison lasts about 20-30 min. At a rate of 1 drop per hour that would mean 1 hour farming yields 1.5-2 hours of poison. Still pretty pathetic return on investment, but Far closer to being worthwhile to what we got now.

Unless something is done, the creation of utility poisons was a monumental waste of resources just like the scrolls they made for spell research.

[sournois]

So when these new poisons went live and we were all trying to decode the stupid vendor books on the new posions, did anyone else notice that they hinted at being able to make several at a time ie a stack of 5 or whatever as the result of one combine. Anyone figure out what the combination of mats is for that or no?

[songsa]

Unless something is done, the creation of utility poisons was a monumental waste of resources just like the scrolls they made for spell research.

Totally agree, thats what i said many times already in this forum, im pleased i'm not alone.

[Viiggo]

So when these new poisons went live and we were all trying to decode the stupid vendor books on the new posions, did anyone else notice that they hinted at being able to make several at a time ie a stack of 5 or whatever as the result of one combine. Anyone figure out what the combination of mats is for that or no?
Transcribed by Myce Elffe of Saryrn ... enjoy ~~~

These secrets you shall not share
The peace we grant is the peace of death
It is our Gift. It is a gift we share. It is a gift we do not reveal.
The Gift is simple to create. While we can share simple gifts, and allow others to give the gift, there are many that only we can deliver. We and only we can use two gifts at a time. One gift simply delivers the gift directly, while the other allows us to more easily deliver the gift to others.

Vials hold importance. They contain the efficacy of what is in. Quality matters more as the gift increases in its ability to give the gift. There are two. One is only for our main gift and seals their fate. The other is for the gifts we share and the gifts we use to assist.

Next one needs the base of the gift. This base comes in many forms. These forms come in many grades. As the grade and quality improves, so does the power of the gift.

The gift of the Nigriventer is a shared gift that directly delivers the gift.

The gift of the Gormar is for a shared gift that directly delivers a lesser gift along with irritating pain.

The gift of the Mamba is for the basic gift that only we can use. It may also be used in the gift of the gods.

The gift of the Taipan is for the gift we can use that expends itself more quickly.

The gift of the Choresine is for the fragile gift with the strongest sting that we give all at once.

The gift of the Muscimol is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted forget the pain.

The gift of the oleander is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted slow in combat.

The gift of the Larkspur is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted slow of foot.

The gift of the Caladium is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted clumsy in combat.

The gift of the Laburnum is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted slow and clumsy in combat.

The gift of the Privit is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted miss in combat.

The gift of the Delphinium is for the assisting gift that makes the gifted fail to evade strikes.

Once one has the base of the gift, one will need to suspend the gift. The gift is suspended thickly for those gifts that are shared, allowing for safety for those less skilled at delivering gifts. It is simply suspended for the basics of what we give. It is suspended from the ether when we deliver quickly. It is suspended from the celestial hosts when we give it all at once. Finally, for the gifts that assist, we must suffuse the gift.

Finally we must help the base of the gift to mix with the gift suspension. For this, we must emulsify. Most gifts share the same emulsifier, but the gifts of the gods have their own.

While the gifts that only we can deliver will cost you little, they do require that you have skill in creating the gifts. You will find that you cannot make them until you have practiced making other gifts.

Some assisting gifts do not gain in efficacy past a certain point. While this may be true, it is still important to improve the quality of the components of the gift in order to have them deliver properly to the gifted. In addition, some assisting gifts are complex enough that they take a much higher skill to construct as well as use.

Where do you see anything about making more than 1 at a time? the ONLY place that mentions anything about more than one, is the phrase about how rogues can use 2 poisons at a time.

[sournois]

after going back over the books, I guess i misread them and its only components that you can make multiples of.

"You may extract more than one at a time, as you fit components of the gift, but you waste the chance to learn as it is no more difficult that doing one."

[Thurgle]

Do we have an ETA for the snare line fix? reducing movement rate instead of increasing it?

[Catweazel]

Do we have an ETA for the snare line fix? reducing movement rate instead of increasing it?

Similar question - is Messenger's Bane XII supposed to cast Messenger's Bane Poison IV?

There are other poisons where the rank of the Poison bottle is higher than the spell it casts, for example, Monk's Bane XII casts Monk's Bane Poison II, Fighter's Bane XII casts IX, Warlord's Bane XII casts IX, Archer's Bane XI and XII both cast Archer's Bane Poison I etc.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Do we have an ETA for the snare line fix? reducing movement rate instead of increasing it?

Needs a full patch. (spells always do) there is one scheduled for early May.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Similar question - is Messenger's Bane XII supposed to cast Messenger's Bane Poison IV?

There are other poisons where the rank of the Poison bottle is higher than the spell it casts, for example, Monk's Bane XII casts Monk's Bane Poison II, Fighter's Bane XII casts IX, Warlord's Bane XII casts IX, Archer's Bane XI and XII both cast Archer's Bane Poison I etc.

Yeah. The effect caps... but... the line continues to raise the level it is cast at for the level based resist mods.

[Catweazel]

Yeah. The effect caps... but... the line continues to raise the level it is cast at for the level based resist mods.

I have to say that I don't understand.

A poison, which is made from level 85 ingredients (practically impossible to farm, tough to combine) creates the same proc effect as a poison made from level 15 ingredients (Archer's Bane).

I realize the proc after it is "cast" by me as a level 85 player will be better than the proc "cast" by a level 20 player....but why should I bother farming the tougher ingredients? It's exactly the same spell in a fancier bottle.

What am I missing?

[Herat]

I have to say that I don't understand.

A poison, which is made from level 85 ingredients (practically impossible to farm, tough to combine) creates the same proc effect as a poison made from level 15 ingredients (Archer's Bane).

I realize the proc after it is "cast" by me as a level 85 player will be better than the proc "cast" by a level 20 player....but why should I bother farming the tougher ingredients? It's exactly the same spell in a fancier bottle.

What am I missing?

I think what he's saying is that the level keeps going up, so that a level 85 mob will resist a level 85 poison less than it would resist a level 15 poison.

[IssusTruspirit]

Herat, you are correct.... but the concern is so what? If i'm essentially casting a lvl capped version of a spell (that for the sake of a number caps at lvl 15) that never increases in potency (besides resist rates which are pretty horrible as is) so that a lvl 85 version of the spell creates same effect as the level 15 version..... why are we busting our butts so hard farming the high level versions of these if the same effect can be vendor purchased/made. RvR kinda is non-existent based on current resist rates.

That being said.... i'm not overly upset griping on this atm b/c i'm bearing in mind that Ngreth did mention at the beginning that the poisons as they go in are weak from the start and will be tuned as we get more testing data for him to see. That way the nerf bat doesn't swing in b/c they were made too well from the start but instead need to be tuned up.

Here's for hoping that some of these current lvl capped utility poisons get their effects tweaked up to match the effort put in farming the high level components and justify the success/fail rate on 2 sets of combines for these poisons. Either that or lower down the resist check on them so they're resisted less often to make higher level ones more desirable.

Personally, i'd like to see a combination of both... spell effects raised in potency of what they do, and resist rates modified so the mob resists it less to justify the time spent farming the high level versions and the failure rates on having to combine these twice b4 getting a final usable product.

Also i did like the idea i read somewhere of having the poison quests we do reward us with DD poison potions (level appropriate) and instead of getting additional components to make yet more of the DD poisons, how bout rewarding us instead with utility components (level appropriate) to help alleviate the issue of having a hard time farming some of these components. And/or if we're rewarded additional components to make DD poisons, then perhaps the components are the ones needed to make the all/all poisons (Nigriventor/Goramar level appropriate) to further help Rogues recoup a bit of the cost of time spent farming drops / buying them. If there's 6 diff Rogue missions for these Poison quests.... then perhaps you can rotate the component(s) rewarded for completion of the quests as well so it's not always the same component we're rewarded with.

[Catweazel]

I think what he's saying is that the level keeps going up, so that a level 85 mob will resist a level 85 poison less than it would resist a level 15 poison.

I understand that part (I think)....

But for example - Archer's Bane I casts Archer's Bane Poison I
and Archer's Bane XII casts Archer's Bane Poison I

By the time I have poured the poison out of the bottle (whether it is a cheap bottle or an expensive bottle), the poison on my blade is the same poison, and my blade does not know which bottle it came out of.

For me at Level 85 - the "casted" poison (i.e. the proc) is identical (I think).

I understand that a level 50 casting Archer's Bane Poison I will get a lower level based resist cap, but that is not the issue.

Perhaps it is coded so that the bottle is considered to be the "caster" which sets the level of the cast spell - but to be honest that seems extremely weird.

[Thurgle]

What am I missing?

I think the poisons proc at their own casting level.

If you are 85 and using a level 20 poison, that poison still fires as a level 20 caster and will prolly get resisted vs a level 80 mob.

The same poison (proc/effect) but using the level 85 components should fire as a level 85 caster and should land on a level 80 mob more consistantly.

[silenceisgolden]

I think the poisons proc at their own casting level.

If you are 85 and using a level 20 poison, that poison still fires as a level 20 caster and will prolly get resisted vs a level 80 mob.

The same poison (proc/effect) but using the level 85 components should fire as a level 85 caster and should land on a level 80 mob more consistantly.

yep

[IssusTruspirit]

I think the poisons proc at their own casting level.

If you are 85 and using a level 20 poison, that poison still fires as a level 20 caster and will prolly get resisted vs a level 80 mob.

The same poison (proc/effect) but using the level 85 components should fire as a level 85 caster and should land on a level 80 mob more consistantly.

Yes, but if the lvl 20 sticks... it's the same version of the spell as the lvl 85 of it the overall effect is still the same.

I believe the concern is why bother farming 85 components for a 1/4 chance at making the combine if the effect is the exact same as say the lvl 40 vendor bought components? I'd rather go buy the lvl 40 vendor bought and have it resist more than spending the sink-hole time of farming higher lvl components for a fail at a combine or the same effect just lands a little more.

With how often these poisons proc with max AAs anyway if i'm resisted 6 times in a row on the low level utility then boom lands in a span of 8 or 10 sec fight and the debuff lasts at least a tick or two i'm getting more out of the lvl 40 than time + effort put into the lvl 85.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I have to say that I don't understand.

A poison, which is made from level 85 ingredients (practically impossible to farm, tough to combine) creates the same proc effect as a poison made from level 15 ingredients (Archer's Bane).

I realize the proc after it is "cast" by me as a level 85 player will be better than the proc "cast" by a level 20 player....but why should I bother farming the tougher ingredients? It's exactly the same spell in a fancier bottle.

What am I missing?

I think the poisons proc at their own casting level.

If you are 85 and using a level 20 poison, that poison still fires as a level 20 caster and will prolly get resisted vs a level 80 mob.

The same poison (proc/effect) but using the level 85 components should fire as a level 85 caster and should land on a level 80 mob more consistantly.
Yes. They proc at the POISONS level, not the players level. So it ends up being a "level 20" casting on a level 85.
Yes, but if the lvl 20 sticks... it's the same version of the spell as the lvl 85 of it the overall effect is still the same.

I believe the concern is why bother farming 85 components for a 1/4 chance at making the combine if the effect is the exact same as say the lvl 40 vendor bought components? I'd rather go buy the lvl 40 vendor bought and have it resist more than spending the sink-hole time of farming higher lvl components for a fail at a combine or the same effect just lands a little more.

With how often these poisons proc with max AAs anyway if i'm resisted 6 times in a row on the low level utility then boom lands in a span of 8 or 10 sec fight and the debuff lasts at least a tick or two i'm getting more out of the lvl 40 than time + effort put into the lvl 85.

If it sticks. That is great, use the lower version. But there are level adjustments to NPC resistances. They are small when the difference is within 10 levels, but it starts to grow after that.

[Viiggo]

And no one is even mentioning the real reason to make the higher versions...

You can only skill up so far on the lvl 40 ones.

[Catweazel]

Yes, but if the lvl 20 sticks... it's the same version of the spell as the lvl 85 of it the overall effect is still the same.

I believe the concern is why bother farming 85 components for a 1/4 chance at making the combine if the effect is the exact same as say the lvl 40 vendor bought components? I'd rather go buy the lvl 40 vendor bought and have it resist more than spending the sink-hole time of farming higher lvl components for a fail at a combine or the same effect just lands a little more.

With how often these poisons proc with max AAs anyway if i'm resisted 6 times in a row on the low level utility then boom lands in a span of 8 or 10 sec fight and the debuff lasts at least a tick or two i'm getting more out of the lvl 40 than time + effort put into the lvl 85.

This was the other reason for asking (other than my own ignorance).

For example, Fighter's Bane XII is resisted by almost every mob I fight sub level 80. It is just simply not worth the hassle to look for XIII-XV on this basis regardless of drop rates. It would have been nice to have an accuracy debuff, but I guess we will have to wait longer. If the Warlord's Bane is designed the same way, then it gets crossed off the list too.

[Droog_RN]

Unless I've missed my guess, the quests only yield DPS poison components because they are (almost) useless for skilling up the trade, and it was not Ngreth's or Nodyin's intent for these quests to be farmed for powerskilling. The lockout timer mitigates this factor as well, however.

It would be nice to be able to choose no-trade flagged utility poison drops as a reward instead. Perhaps these new no-trade utility recipes could have minimum skill to attempt, similar to the DPS poisons, so that we can use these quests to supplement our stock with level-appropriate utility poisons and NOT gain an advantage to skillups OR bazaar sales.

[Bugg Wizer]

question -- is their and agro reduction potion for all all like spiders bite? i know theirs the rogue one, but i'm needed an added reduction.

[silenceisgolden]

no there are only 2 all/all spiders bite =dps scorpians agony=dps+hate

[Ngreth Thergn]

Unless I've missed my guess, the quests only yield DPS poison components because they are (almost) useless for skilling up the trade, and it was not Ngreth's or Nodyin's intent for these quests to be farmed for powerskilling. The lockout timer mitigates this factor as well, however.

It would be nice to be able to choose no-trade flagged utility poison drops as a reward instead. Perhaps these new no-trade utility recipes could have minimum skill to attempt, similar to the DPS poisons, so that we can use these quests to supplement our stock with level-appropriate utility poisons and NOT gain an advantage to skillups OR bazaar sales.
Well. What I *may* do... is give players the option of gaining one of teh utility potions or the DPS poisons, AND parts to make DSP poisons only. I.E. you can choose to get "free" DPS or "Free" utility, but you will always get parts for the base DPS. I may not even have to do anything with the "no Trade" part, but instead play with merchant values, making them all but worthless when sold to an NPC so theya re not a money source.
I will need more time to consider all the ramifications before I impliment it. I am not enamored with making another "no trade" copy, as that is jsut using up yet more memmory.
question -- is their and agro reduction potion for all all like spiders bite? i know theirs the rogue one, but i'm needed an added reduction.

I have no plans at this time to make an all/all aggro reduction.
The most I am considering at this point is reducing the aggro that spiders bite creates, but not making it actual aggro reduction. I am still considering this though. Part of the point of the difference between the all/all and the rogue only poisons is the ability of rogues to use poisons better than non rogues, and one of these is producing less relative hate.

[shmoozneak]

Unless I've missed my guess, the quests only yield DPS poison components because they are (almost) useless for skilling up the trade, and it was not Ngreth's or Nodyin's intent for these quests to be farmed for powerskilling. The lockout timer mitigates this factor as well, however.

It would be nice to be able to choose no-trade flagged utility poison drops as a reward instead. Perhaps these new no-trade utility recipes could have minimum skill to attempt, similar to the DPS poisons, so that we can use these quests to supplement our stock with level-appropriate utility poisons and NOT gain an advantage to skillups OR bazaar sales.

That seems like a reasonable approach to me.

[silenceisgolden]

i want a posion that makes the mob do a 180 ;)

[Tivia]

Ngreth,

If you don't mind, could you give us the specific reasoning that the DD not utility poisons cannot be near instant cast? I understand the Strike 1 shot line is going to have a recast timer of around 10 seconds. That is fine, however I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to remove the cast time so this can be used as an opener and then quickly load a sustained poisons. I think the recast and the aggro generated are sufficient to prevent abuse.

[Droog_RN]

Making poisons near-instant is going to turn us into poison hoses...

Open with strike, apply bite
-10 seconds-
re-apply strike, immediately re-apply bite
-10 seconds-
re-apply strike, immediately re-apply bite
etc., etc., so on and so forth...

No thanks... If we need DPS to bring us in line (which I believe we do) this is not the way to get it. The only way this would not be an abuse is if the re-cast timer applied to all poisons, not just the strike line (does it already? if so, ignore me).

I know this notion doesn't sit well with you, Tivia, but for a poison implementation to be believable, it should take time and concentration to apply it to a weapon. I don't want to picture myself with 3 different poison tanks strapped to my back with tubes running down my sleeves... Let's keep the cast time and re-casts in place and balance around them...

[Tivia]

Making poisons near-instant is going to turn us into poison hoses...

Open with strike, apply bite
-10 seconds-
re-apply strike, immediately re-apply bite
-10 seconds-
re-apply strike, immediately re-apply bite
etc., etc., so on and so forth...

No thanks... If we need DPS to bring us in line (which I believe we do) this is not the way to get it. The only way this would not be an abuse is if the re-cast timer applied to all poisons, not just the strike line (does it already? if so, ignore me).

I know this notion doesn't sit well with you, Tivia, but for a poison implementation to be believable, it should take time and concentration to apply it to a weapon. I don't want to picture myself with 3 different poison tanks strapped to my back with tubes running down my sleeves... Let's keep the cast time and re-casts in place and balance around them...

I disagree, the aggro on strike prevents that from being a reasonable scenario. The reason for instant or near instant is for fast pulling exp groups and raid trash clearing. Using Strike as an opener and then sustaining with bites as I mentioned multiple times. There is zero reason to have a cast time or a recast time on the proc poisons.

[shmoozneak]

i want a posion that makes the mob do a 180 ;)

I want a poison that makes the mob buy me a beer.

:beer

[shmoozneak]

... I don't want to picture myself with 3 different poison tanks strapped to my back with tubes running down my sleeves...

Actually, that's not a bad idea. I'll get out my tinkering alt and start working on it right away.

:backstab

[Ngreth Thergn]

Ngreth,

If you don't mind, could you give us the specific reasoning that the DD not utility poisons cannot be near instant cast? I understand the Strike 1 shot line is going to have a recast timer of around 10 seconds. That is fine, however I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to remove the cast time so this can be used as an opener and then quickly load a sustained poisons. I think the recast and the aggro generated are sufficient to prevent abuse.

Because we *do* want you to lose some DPS to apply them mid combat.

But that said. In the future I want to see about reducing this cast time with abilities, which will decrease the DPS loss.

[Tivia]

Because we *do* want you to lose some DPS to apply them mid combat.

But that said. In the future I want to see about reducing this cast time with abilities, which will decrease the DPS loss.

Thank you, that's all I wanted to know.

[Thurgle]

i want a posion that makes the mob do a 180 ;)

You know, I was just wondering why there isnt a good old 2 or 3 tick stun proc poison.

I remember using Trochilic's Skean (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=5078) for the longest time even though it was a totally inferior weapon, just because I could get a backstab or two in while they were stunned from the clockwork poison (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1010).

[Rearshot]

Are the lower grades of delphinium for monk's bane not vendor purchaseable like the other low utility components are? Haven't seen it on vendors.

[Bugg Wizer]

i want a posion that makes the mob do a 180 ;)

don't need a poison for that, a simple backstab will do that, rofl.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I will be looking at first at making it part of the poison mastery.

It seems though that I do not yet have that ability and will need to make it a code request :(

Or take up more memory by making some duplicate items... (NOT my first choice at all)

[Ngreth Thergn]

Are the lower grades of delphinium for monk's bane not vendor purchaseable like the other low utility components are? Haven't seen it on vendors.

Some poisons do not have a lower grade and start at higher grades only. I believe this is one of them.

[Viiggo]

Some poisons do not have a lower grade and start at higher grades only. I believe this is one of them.

Right. Caladium and Laburnum do not have vender sold ranks I, II, or III.. Delphinium and Privit do not have vender sold ranks I thru VI. They can only be made from dropped ingredients... if those components drop. I think Alla has the lower un-extracted bits listed, but right now im to tired to know for sure.

[Umii]

Yes

While I was vague about it, I never really promised a full 2 hours.
The intent is for the DPS poisons to last about 30 minutes of actual swinigng the weapon, with the 1.5 hours of "padding" to allow for travel, pulling, positioning, etc.
Of course this does NOT account for virulent venom which moves the proc rate up by 1ppm (proc per minute) if you have it maxed. DPS poisons are 2ppm in general (there is a "fast" one at 4ppm) and virulent venom moves this to 3ppm if maxed. (5ppm for the fast) so it moves the 30 minutes to 20 minutes.
I am *considering* (this is *not* a promise, I want to give it full consideration before I actually do it) scaling the number of procs up in the level ranges when virulent venom becomes available.
As for the Utility... I left it at about half the duration, but I am more strongly considering raising that to 30 minutes as well, but maybe *not* taking into effect virulent venom.


I've only read into around page 4 of this thread so excuse me if this was clarified...but if Virulent venom raises PPM by 1 no matter what the buffs current proc mod is wouldn't that always make Bite of the Shissar superior to Strike of the Shissar?

Let x=1,

Bite at 2x damage at 2ppm = 4dmg per minute
Strike at 1x damage at 4ppm = 4dmg per minute

now with Virulent Venom

Bite at 2x damage at 3ppm = 6dmg per minute
Strike at 1x damage at 5ppm = 5dmg per minute

Is what you are considering a fix for this or did you just mean Virulent venom allowing more ppm addition the higher you level to make it not stagnate in new expansions?

[Droog_RN]

He means he might make the max proc count for each poison application to be something higher than 60 for the higher levels versions of each poison, in order to make them last an approriate amount of time... nothing to do with DPS, just mitigating the annoyance of frequent re-applications.