View Full Version : New poisons - Discuss
silenceisgolden
04-03-09, 11:14 AM
Just starting a seperate thread to discuss usage, theories, issues, and diffficulties with the new poisons.
Emulsifier
unrefined poison vial
suffusing suspension fluid
Grade A Oleander Extract
yields
Myrmidon's Sloth
Effect: Myrmidon's Sloth Poison VI
Required level 40
This is a slow poison, doesnt last long but procs often enough to renew it before it drops, think bard slow. Do not know the % slow and further attempts to upgrade it from store-bought components have been for naught. I assume higher ranks will be drops.
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Same as above except Grade A Muscimol Extract (thanks Bargai)
yields
Quellious Trauma VI
Effect: Quellious Trauma Poison III
Required level 40
This is a jolt, procs ALOT.
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Same as above with Grade A Caladium Extract
yields
Fighter's Bane VI
Effect: Fighter's Bane Poison III
Required level 40
Just made this, dont know what it does.
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Same as above with Grade A Larkspur Extract
yields
Messenger's Bane VI
Effect: Messenger's Bane Poison III
Required level 40
Also just made this, assuming from the name its a snare.
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Same as above with Grade A Laburnum Extract
yields
Warlord's Bane VI
Effect: Warlord's Bane Poison III
Required level 40
No idea.
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That should at least start people with what poisons do what effect.
Droog_RN
04-03-09, 03:26 PM
Just a guess - but perhaps the Fighter's Bane and Warlord's Bane are a Brittle Haste effect? A minor haste buff, but at the cost of diminished AC and other stats I think... I always thought this sounded like a wishy-washy poison effect, but come to think of it - as long as the mob is slowed, the haste portion should have no effect on the target's attack rate. Slow (like snare) overrides similar beneficial effects, but doesn't overwrite them, nor are they merely subtractive.
Drake09
04-03-09, 03:52 PM
I was guessing at a cripple effect for one of them.
Ngreth Thergn
04-03-09, 05:53 PM
All poisons do something that affects the target not the user.
Some of the old one-shot poisons really do haste the mob. It's probably just lucky no one ever worked out how to grief with it.
Just made these.
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of Ssraeshza XV.
Trivial (496)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of Ssraeshza VIII
Single Shot: 12.4k DD then dissipates.
Max Crit 28,599 dmg
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Celestial Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Choresine Sample
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Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of the Shissar XV
Trivial (492)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of the Shissar VIII
3067 base dmg DD, 7054 dmg max crit with Empowered Ingenuity 3
Looks as though its half the damage of the Consigned Bite of the Shissar XV but around twice the proc rate.
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Ethereal Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Taipan Venom
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All/All Poison
Spider's Bite VI
Trivial (160)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike III
Damage: 1622
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Nigriventer Venom
Spider's Bite IX
Trivial: (244)
Req Lvl: 55
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike V
Damage:1962
Recipe:
1x Refined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Concentrated Grade A Nigriventer Venom
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All/All Poison
Scorpion's Agony VI
Trivial (170)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Scorpion's Agony Poison Strike III
Dmg: 1112
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Gormar Venom
That's an erm, really high trivial lol.
If anyone wants to help figure out how to extract/refine/concentrate/purify reagents that would be awesome.
Just made these.
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of Ssraeshza XV.
Trivial (496)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of Ssraeshza VIII
Single Shot: 12.4k DD then dissipates.
Max Crit 28,599 dmg
Whats the point of this poison?
better have a 6k2 max hit poison that can land 60 times than a double dmg poison (12k4) that lands 1 time.
Do i miss something?
I'm assuming you can use the oneshot like an opener or just have it on a bandolier to pull out whenever you want to toss in a big hit. you just lose 2 seconds doing so casting it.
I'd consider it for groups not raid mobs. When you think like that, assuming mobs are dying fairly fast, you may get 1-2 procs off per fight. So instead of two smaller ones, you get one huge one off.
So I hopped over to Test last night and with the help of Keriath and Tauvas, here's what we figured out.
The basic recipe for the new poisons are:
*** Poison Vial + Emulsifier + *** Suspension + Base Component
The Emulsifier is just a basic vendor sold component. Most use the basic Emulsifier. However for the general Direct Damage poison for Rogues (Bite of the Shissar) the basic Emulsifier can be replaced with either Ro's Emulsifer for a fire resist poison, or E'ci Emulsifier for a cold resist poison.
The suspension determines how the poison acts:
Suspension - Basic Suspension
Ethereal Suspension - Poison fires more quickly
Suffisive Suspension - Used for assist poisons (debuffs)
Celestial Suspension - Fires all at once
Thick Suspension - Used in poisons that can be given to non-rogues
The poison vial used is based on the level you want for the final result. There is a normal version and a sealed version for each level. Sealed poison vials are used for the Rogue only DPS poisons. All other poisons use the Normal version.
Level 85 - Chronal Infused
Level 80 - Platinum Embossed
Level 75 - Gold Embossed
Level 70 - Embossed
Level 65 - Etched
Level 60 - Fine
Level 55 - Refined
Level 50 - Unadorned
Level 45 - Plain
Level 40 - Unrefined
Level 35 - Simple
Level 30 - Coarse
Level 25 - Rough
Level 20 - Crude
Level 15 - Primitive (No sealed version that I saw)
And so these aren't nearly as confusing, there is a Required Level on the actual item in game when you right click that shows the level it is used for.
The Base component is the fun part to explain. There are 12 different types of base components found on the poison vendors. Each component has a specific effect. The level of the effect is determined by the Grade of the component. It appears that all grades of each component are purchasable up to level 40, with some purchasable all the way to 85. For the dropped components, you will have to refine those yourself.
Components and Effects:
Nigriventer - Direct Damage All/All (Spider)
Goramar - DD + Hate All/All (Scorpion)
Mamba - Self Only DD (Snake)
Taipan - DD that expends more quickly (Snake)
Choresine - Massive single use DD (Insect + Frogs & Birds)
Muscimol - Agro Debuff (Mushroom)
Oleander - Slow (Plant)
Larkspur - Snare (Plant)
Caladium - Clumsy (Plant)
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy (Plant)
Privit - Accuracy debuff (Plant)
Delphinium - Evasion debuff (Plant)
You are actually able to have 2 different poisons up at once. One from the first group and one from the second.
Now for the Grade of the component.
85 - Purified Grade AA
80 - Purified Grade A
75 - Purified Grade B
70 - Refined Grade AA
65 - Refined Grade A
60 - Concentrated Grade AA
55 - Concentrated Grade A
50 - Concentrated Grade B
45 - Grade AA
40 - Grade A
35 - Grade B
30 - Grade C
25 - Grade D
20 - Grade E
15 - Weak
Rogue Only DPS Components can be bought up to level 85 from vendor
Utility Poison Components can be bought up to level 40 from vendor
All/All DPS components can be bought up to level 40 from vendor. Dropped components from these do not need to be washed.
The dropped components seem to come from Rogue Class mobs and also snakes/plants of the appropriate level range.
Level 85 - Pristine Component
Level 80 - Superior Component
Level 75 - Quality Component
Level 70 - Fine Component
Level 65 - Fresh Component
Level 60 - Stale Component
Level 55 - Wilted Component
Level 50 - Brittle Component
Level 45 - Dry Component
To get from the Raw component to the Base, there are a few vendor sold items.
To get a basic result (level 45 Grade AA) You would combine the raw component + Neutral Wash in a Mortar.
For a Concentrated Base, it is Raw + Neutral Wash + Waterbane Powder.
For Refined, it is Raw + Neutral Wash + Waterbane Powder + Formic Acid.
For Purified, it is Raw + Neutral Wash + Waterbane Powder + Formic Acid + Solusek Nodule.
The sealed poison vials are used for Rogue only poison recipes. The "open" vials are used in the all/all a.k.a "shared" poison recipes. Sorry that this caused confusion. Although it did hold true for our damage poisons.
That's going to take me some time to digest lol.
Got any triv info? hoping for a vendor way to get to 300 from 282.
...Got any triv info? hoping for a vendor way to get to 300 from 282.
Not sure what components Ngreth plans on keeping on the merchants for Live so I couldn't tell you.
Not sure what components Ngreth plans on keeping on the merchants for Live so I couldn't tell you.
I'm on test :p
Emulsifier
unrefined poison vial
suffusing suspension fluid
Grade A Oleander Extract
yields
Myrmidon's Sloth
Effect: Myrmidon's Sloth Poison VI
Required level 40
This is a slow poison, doesnt last long but procs often enough to renew it before it drops, think bard slow. Do not know the % slow and further attempts to upgrade it from store-bought components have been for naught. I assume higher ranks will be drops.
You are correct about the drops, the base drops then have to be further processed depending on the base's level; As posted by Keaile.
For example. I made Myrmidon's Sloth X. It required a drop --->Stale Oleandar (lvl 60 base) which then needed to be combined with Neutral Wash + Waterbane Powder and resulted in Concentrated Grade AA Oleander. This combine alone has a trivial of (272).
You can now take 1x Fine Sealed Poison Vial (lvl 60) 1x Concentrated Grade AA Oleander 1x Emulsifier 1x Suffusing Suspension Fluid and end up with Myrmidon's Sloth X. (Req lvl 60)
Trivial (288)
...The Emulsifier is just a basic vendor sold component. Most use the basic version, but there are two others (E'ci and Ro) that I haven't figured out yet...
Just figured out the combines for them.These will come in handy for mobs that are resistant/immune to our other types of poisons. Identical poisons with the only difference being that one is fire based and the other is cold based.
Rogue Only Poisons:
Solusek's Burn XV
Trivial (502)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Solusek's Burn Poison VIII
Base Dmg: 6127
Max Crit: 14092
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Suspension Fluid
1x Ro Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Mamba Venom
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E'ci's Lament XV
Trivial (502)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: E'ci's Lament Poison VIII
Base Dmg: 6127
Max Crit: 14092
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Suspension Fluid
1x E'ci Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Mamba Venom
Trivial (502)
Does that seem a little high to anyone else?
Trivial (502)
Does that seem a little high to anyone else?
Naaaaaaaaah. In the next expansion they are raising all tradeskills to 500, and there's no vendor path to it.
Catweazel
04-05-09, 08:36 AM
There is a problem with trivials and the way success is calculated and mastery aa's combined with trophies. I know NGreth could explain it far better than me.
In order to achieve a certain statistical chance of failure, trivials on the latest and greatest tradeskilled items appear to be extremely high.
Making numbers up....but....
If you are "only" 300 Poison skill, then a trivial of 502 might mean a 10% chance of success
If you are 300 + Level 6 trophy, you might get a 25% chance of success
If you are 300 + Level 7 trophy plus Mastery3 you might get a 70% chance of success.
IssusTruspirit
04-05-09, 09:22 AM
Just figured out the combines for them.These will come in handy for mobs that are resistant/immune to our other types of poisons. Identical poisons with the only difference being that one is fire based and the other is cold based.
So since they are no longer 'poison' based, will that mean our virulent venom will no longer affect the proc rate on these versions of the poisons?
And will any sort of worn Fire or Cold focii effect raise the damage of the fire or cold based poisons? (I know there's probably not many Rogue wearable items with fire/cold focii on them but i do know i was wearing an earring from Anguish for awhile that dropped off Keldovan with a fire focus on it) Would be interesting if it did modify the dmg and by what %.
Anyone else concerned about us not having enough buff slots to use these on raids? I know raid buffed (allowing for the detrimental buffs that we get cast on us by the mobs), I'm usually pretty close to full buffs. Adding 2 more could get difficult (and yes, I have every AA, etc. to add buff slots).
At trivial 502 a capped-out rogue has a 60% chance of success, which isn't really that bad. Anybody without the mastery AAs is going to be in serious trouble, though.
Depending on how rare the drops are, Mastery may be more or less required for the 85s.
Catweazel
04-05-09, 12:08 PM
Anyone else concerned about us not having enough buff slots to use these on raids? I know raid buffed (allowing for the detrimental buffs that we get cast on us by the mobs), I'm usually pretty close to full buffs. Adding 2 more could get difficult (and yes, I have every AA, etc. to add buff slots).
Rogues only *need* about 7 buffs, and maybe space for 5 more in combat:
Haste
Overhaste
Darkpaw
Yowl and Strength (ranger)
Mammoth
over-Attack
Champion
Lynx
Spire
EB
??? (I forget)
You can add in AC or HP or Agi, even though they really do not help you do your job, but I cannot remember as a rogue when I had problems with buff slot availability
All/All Poison
Spider's Bite VI
Trivial (160)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike III
Damage: 1622
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Nigriventer Venom
Spider's Bite IX
Trivial: (244)
Req Lvl: 55
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike V
Damage:1962
Recipe:
1x Refined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Concentrated Grade A Nigriventer Venom
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All/All Poison
Scorpion's Agony VI
Trivial (170)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Scorpion's Agony Poison Strike III
Dmg: 1112
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Gormar Venom
All/all poisons are a mistake in my opinion for 2 reasons :
1) all melee dps will use them because it adds an interesting dps, so the rogue specificity to use poisons will be gone, and the need in components will be huge for rogues to make poisons for guildies.
2) dps gained by rogues with poisons will be divided by 2 if we take into account that other melee dps will use poisons as well (in the case of all all poisons 2 times less efficient than rogue only ones, for example if we gain 500 dps other will gain around 250). This can be a problem if the goal of poison revamp is to fix rogue dps compared to other melee dps classes with less handicap.
Weebaaa
04-05-09, 02:10 PM
I agree. it seems a poor idea alltogether.
At trivial 502 a capped-out rogue has a 60% chance of success, which isn't really that bad. Anybody without the mastery AAs is going to be in serious trouble, though.
Depending on how rare the drops are, Mastery may be more or less required for the 85s.
I'm at 345 make poison with the 7/7 trophy and I can tell you that without max poison mastery the success rate is horrid. Even with max poison mastery I would still suggest purchasing salvage 3.
Hmm well need as far as buffs go is great, but I have a buff line up that's worked well for me in providing max DPS as well as actaully surviving when things go poorly, and it involves more than 7 buffs. You may do fine with yer 7, but I like having my buffs up, and adding 2 more will be a pain in the butt, if not impossible.
All/all poisons are a mistake in my opinion for 2 reasons :
1) all melee dps will use them because it adds an interesting dps, so the rogue specificity to use poisons will be gone, and the need in components will be huge for rogues to make poisons for guildies.
2) dps gained by rogues with poisons will be divided by 2 if we take into account that other melee dps will use poisons as well (in the case of all all poisons 2 times less efficient than rogue only ones, for example if we gain 500 dps other will gain around 250). This can be a problem if the goal of poison revamp is to fix rogue dps compared to other melee dps classes with less handicap.
I agree, we will still be outparsed because of the all/all poison availability.
Although I think we did agree that poisons would only be part of our dps solution; so now we'll have to wait for them to tweak our melee dps. Another thing that we need to take in account is that even though the other classes will do half the damage of our poisons they still do not have access to an AA like virulent venom. So we will still proc more often than they will.
For now enjoy being able to actually use our tradeskill and possibly make money off of it by selling the all/all poisons in the bazaar.
(What about a proposed change to the all/all poisons since those classes are less effective in using them; they should not only do half the damage but also be limited to 30 procs instead of 60 and twice the cast time on applying.)
Qutsmnie
04-05-09, 05:26 PM
all/all is a good idea because it mitigates the impact of having to balance rogues around the assumption they are blowing tons of plat and free time to have poisons up. A noose around our neck compared to spell casters. What is the point of making rogues use self only buffs that take inventory, free time, and plat when a hybrid or caster only has to mem a spell and cast it to get the same sorts of effects? Its "real" but its also "da suck". When all/all poisons are in the game everyone has to deal with the same "da suck", but rogues get a distinct perk in the form of being the source.
In this form a rogue can never complain "but I have to deal with poisons" cause a warrior and ranger gets to complain "I have to deal with wondering if I should use poisons too but I dont even get to make them."
All and all though I have always been anti-mundane and more fantastically abstract. If I had my choice a rogue would just use an endurance ability on a no-drop item from trash mobs on their cursor and everyone in the group would get a buff. No tradeskill. I am not into tradeskills--never have been.
Thurgle
04-05-09, 08:21 PM
Give the all/all ones to your tanks ~
yes but with bazaar all melee will use poisons anyway, rogue specifity will be gone. sad imo
its like revamp of mend useable by all classes, do you think monk would be happy even with less power for others?
Qutsmnie
04-06-09, 12:02 AM
Do shamans suffer because everyone can use the potions they make? Do they sit around and shout "my shaman is weaker because other people can use the potions she makes!" Why are we?
You know what would be kind of best of both worlds. If nobody could click a poison unless a rogue is in the group. It has lore: the rogue has to guide you. It would make the poison still of value in the bazaar. It would add to rogue group desirability by making it an effect you can't get without the rogue in the group. And yet at the same time it would still give us the balance that everyone can use these poisons.
In terms of groups, it would be more about the individual rogue. As it sits now a single rogue working the bazaar can supply everyone on the server (or if its like shaman pots it will probably be one of three people). So if a groups using poisons even with a rogue present thats not really about me and does nothing for me in terms of balance. But now you change the picture so that in order for melee/hybrid to use these proc buffs a rogue has to be present. The picture changes a lot! And in a good way. Suddenly inviting/working with an *individual rogue* made that possible. It doesn't matter who makes it in the bazaar. The balance is attributable to someone joining the group and can help someone be a contributer to a group.
That would be cool because it would give poisons a special flavor beyond a normal tradeskill. Hardcore rangers and monks would carry some poison to use if a rogue got in their group at raids. And it wouldn't be everyone doesn't care about what group the rogue is in as usual. Nobody has ever had a reason to spread rogues out at raids, and now there would be one. People wouldn't get these effects unless they had a rogue as one of the other five.
I am not saying the rogue has to "cast it on you". That would be more responsibility that I want as a rogue! I am saying the rogue has to be in the group. But as a non-rogue you are otherwise free to keep your own supply of poisons. They just don't have value until you hook up with a rogue. Great opportunity to have rogues add capacity to a group without being buffers or manifesting it in their own dps.
Have your code team doctor up a flag special for "poison clickees" that checks to see if a rogue is in the group when you try to use the poison and have it say
"You cannot use a poison without a rogue present to show you how."
ive not made my rogue to be a poison supplier, i wanted some useful and specific tool and this is not the case atm.
Shaman potions have always been All/all since the beginning and are utility potions, shaman are helpers/buffers, so this is logic, poisons were rogue only now they are all/all, this is not the same.
silenceisgolden
04-06-09, 03:27 AM
ive not made my rogue to be a poison supplier, i wanted some useful and specific tool and this is not the case atm.
Shaman potions have always been All/all since the beginning and are utility potions, shaman are helpers/buffers, so this is logic, poisons were rogue only now they are all/all, this is not the same.
waitaminit.. all/all? so we're not getting an increase in sustained damage but a decent incease from new poisons , which all classes can use, therefore making other classes dps even higer? so were pretty much at the same point as before. awseom..please xpand on this if im getting this wrong.
The all/all poisons are a significant step down from rogue-only ones (half the dps? No one has posted the comparison that I've seen), and of course they don't have Virulent Venom. All the melees will get boosted by this, and us moreso than the rest.
The all/all poisons are a significant step down from rogue-only ones (half the dps? No one has posted the comparison that I've seen), and of course they don't have Virulent Venom. All the melees will get boosted by this, and us moreso than the rest.
yes i know that we profit more than other from poisons BUT before the revamp apply poison was rogue only, now everybody will have his poison in the bag and will use them, this is no more a rogue only skill, moreover the gain we can have with poison dps will be tempered by other gaining a part of this dps too (from their posions).
The only thing we are the only ones to have will be making poisons (so more work for us...).
IssusTruspirit
04-06-09, 09:23 AM
Do shamans suffer because everyone can use the potions they make? Do they sit around and shout "my shaman is weaker because other people can use the potions she makes!" Why are we?
You know what would be kind of best of both worlds. If nobody could click a poison unless a rogue is in the group. It has lore: the rogue has to guide you. It would make the poison still of value in the bazaar. It would add to rogue group desirability by making it an effect you can't get without the rogue in the group. And yet at the same time it would still give us the balance that everyone can use these poisons.
In terms of groups, it would be more about the individual rogue. As it sits now a single rogue working the bazaar can supply everyone on the server (or if its like shaman pots it will probably be one of three people). So if a groups using poisons even with a rogue present thats not really about me and does nothing for me in terms of balance. But now you change the picture so that in order for melee/hybrid to use these proc buffs a rogue has to be present. The picture changes a lot! And in a good way. Suddenly inviting/working with an *individual rogue* made that possible. It doesn't matter who makes it in the bazaar. The balance is attributable to someone joining the group and can help someone be a contributer to a group.
That would be cool because it would give poisons a special flavor beyond a normal tradeskill. Hardcore rangers and monks would carry some poison to use if a rogue got in their group at raids. And it wouldn't be everyone doesn't care about what group the rogue is in as usual. Nobody has ever had a reason to spread rogues out at raids, and now there would be one. People wouldn't get these effects unless they had a rogue as one of the other five.
I am not saying the rogue has to "cast it on you". That would be more responsibility that I want as a rogue! I am saying the rogue has to be in the group. But as a non-rogue you are otherwise free to keep your own supply of poisons. They just don't have value until you hook up with a rogue. Great opportunity to have rogues add capacity to a group without being buffers or manifesting it in their own dps.
Have your code team doctor up a flag special for "poison clickees" that checks to see if a rogue is in the group when you try to use the poison and have it say
"You cannot use a poison without a rogue present to show you how."
For those starting to have concerns about the all/all and all gaining DPS i'd like to point out i brought that up awhile ago heh... but anyways, i think the above idea would work on curbing that issue and would be awesome if the Devs could work up a code for this to be the case... that way i'm not worried about having to work harder to dps and being back at where we just were.
Rogues gain a lot more DPS with the ROG only versions than anyone using the All/All would. It's even a bigger gap if you have the Virulent Venom AAs.
And the poison with the added hate in a tanks hands is sure to be a benefit to rogues.
Ngreth Thergn
04-06-09, 09:48 AM
So since they are no longer 'poison' based, will that mean our virulent venom will no longer affect the proc rate on these versions of the poisons?
And will any sort of worn Fire or Cold focii effect raise the damage of the fire or cold based poisons? (I know there's probably not many Rogue wearable items with fire/cold focii on them but i do know i was wearing an earring from Anguish for awhile that dropped off Keldovan with a fire focus on it) Would be interesting if it did modify the dmg and by what %.
Nope. That AA does not check resist type.
That AA will affect ANY **BUFF** with a proc that you have on you. ANY of them. (it must be a buff on you)
As for the foci. I think most of them are for casting not procs? I could be wrong there :/
Rogues gain a lot more DPS with the ROG only versions than anyone using the All/All would. It's even a bigger gap if you have the Virulent Venom AAs.
And the poison with the added hate in a tanks hands is sure to be a benefit to rogues.
why always repeating the same things?...
We all know that but many of us dont like the idea to share our apply poison skill, it was a specific skill and it isnt anymore, + the fact that our gain in dps is tempered by the dps gain from all/all poisons, so all in all the dps issue of the rogues will remain.
Droog_RN
04-06-09, 10:58 AM
So Virulent Venom makes lynx and various bard songs proc more? So, even before these new and improved poisons, there was an actual good reason to purchase it... sadly, I have been passing it over all this time...
Garet Jax
04-06-09, 12:02 PM
Do shamans suffer because everyone can use the potions they make? Do they sit around and shout "my shaman is weaker because other people can use the potions she makes!" Why are we?
You know what would be kind of best of both worlds. If nobody could click a poison unless a rogue is in the group. It has lore: the rogue has to guide you. It would make the poison still of value in the bazaar. It would add to rogue group desirability by making it an effect you can't get without the rogue in the group. And yet at the same time it would still give us the balance that everyone can use these poisons.
In terms of groups, it would be more about the individual rogue. As it sits now a single rogue working the bazaar can supply everyone on the server (or if its like shaman pots it will probably be one of three people). So if a groups using poisons even with a rogue present thats not really about me and does nothing for me in terms of balance. But now you change the picture so that in order for melee/hybrid to use these proc buffs a rogue has to be present. The picture changes a lot! And in a good way. Suddenly inviting/working with an *individual rogue* made that possible. It doesn't matter who makes it in the bazaar. The balance is attributable to someone joining the group and can help someone be a contributer to a group.
That would be cool because it would give poisons a special flavor beyond a normal tradeskill. Hardcore rangers and monks would carry some poison to use if a rogue got in their group at raids. And it wouldn't be everyone doesn't care about what group the rogue is in as usual. Nobody has ever had a reason to spread rogues out at raids, and now there would be one. People wouldn't get these effects unless they had a rogue as one of the other five.
I am not saying the rogue has to "cast it on you". That would be more responsibility that I want as a rogue! I am saying the rogue has to be in the group. But as a non-rogue you are otherwise free to keep your own supply of poisons. They just don't have value until you hook up with a rogue. Great opportunity to have rogues add capacity to a group without being buffers or manifesting it in their own dps.
Have your code team doctor up a flag special for "poison clickees" that checks to see if a rogue is in the group when you try to use the poison and have it say
"You cannot use a poison without a rogue present to show you how."
fantastic idea :)
I don't really want to go live in the tank group so that the warriors can click their aggro poisons...
Gkortiz
04-06-09, 01:08 PM
Only problem I would see with Qutsmnie's idea is we could end up just being thrown in tank groups, depending on how many rogues there are *numbers seem to have stagnated recently..*.
Adjusting the idea so poisons will only work if in a group (under normal group settings) is fine, giving groups a reason to group with a rogue. However in a raid, make the utility work for everyone (as long as 1 rogue is in the raid), BUT dps poisons still require a rogue be in the group. This would ensure we're not used as utility only, least my thoughts...
First time post
Catweazel
04-06-09, 01:57 PM
fantastic idea :)
I like this too! Having a desire for classes in groups without being a necessity should be great for the game.
As far as other classes being able to use poisons I really don't mind. Options for raid leaders with missing classes/skills is also great for the game.
Rogues get +500 dps
Other melee get +250 DPS
We are still ahead which is a good thing.
Are we ahead enough? That's a different argument.
Rogues get +500 dps
Other melee get +250 DPS
Are we ahead enough? That's a different argument.
from my experience and reading parses on different forums our dps issue is a lot more than 250 considering our drawbacks.
Come on we waited this revamp since 4 or 5 years just to gain 250 dps against others, have more risk to die due to aggro and no other utility cause we have to use jolt to manage aggro a little ? :beatup
for me poisons are good in solo where aggro is not an issue and where we can use some other utility poisons (slow, cripple etc...) in group or raid at this point of testing i am disappointed.
Garet Jax
04-06-09, 03:07 PM
from my experience and reading parses on different forums our dps issue is a lot more than 250 considering our drawbacks.
Come on we waited this revamp since 4 or 5 years just to gain 250 dps against others, have more risk to die due to aggro and no other utility cause we have to use jolt to manage aggro a little ? :beatup
for me poisons are good in solo where aggro is not an issue and where we can use some other utility poisons (slow, cripple etc...) in group or raid at this point of testing i am disappointed.
Honestly, wait til it is live. I love the fact I get tons of agro and with a competent tank, he can taunt over it. No different then monk or ranger turning mob on enrage for ***** and grins.
Also, poison is voluntary, u dont have to use it.
I know ill have different ones for different occasions, trash clears will be wonderful, being able to slow or debuff mobs instantly in raids. Wont have to worry about shm putting listlessness on me for clears. Being able to solo namers in korafax with a merc, god it will make being a rogue fun again.
I think it's a great idea...moreso if I am grouping somewhere in a tier 3 zone and am the guy tanking it's great for the agro. Not so sure we will be faring too well on raids with this increase to our agro where agro is already a big concern for us rogues. If I take the time to evade multiple times during the raid encounter then I effectively lower my agro but I also negate some decent % of the added DPS that will be increased from the poisons to begin with.
There are things that can be done to balance this out.
1. I think more daggers should start having some kind of minus to hate proc. It is exeedingly rare to obtain one of these daggers.
2. Add extra increments to minus hate AA. <---Forget name atm.
3. And most importantly in my opinion I think a revamp of evade needs to be examined. It was great 8 expansions ago when we didnt have so many NEW things added to the game to give us increased agro ratio ie AA DPS, EB, now new poisons, yet evade does the exact same amount of deagro per time you use it and this is the fallacy. There could even be an AA added to the game where each time you train it -50 extra hate incurs per time a successful evade happens. Maybe make 5 ranks of this so grand scheme thats an extra -250 hate per successful evade and that's not bad at all.
Catweazel
04-06-09, 03:35 PM
from my experience and reading parses on different forums our dps issue is a lot more than 250 considering our drawbacks.
Come on we waited this revamp since 4 or 5 years just to gain 250 dps against others, have more risk to die due to aggro and no other utility cause we have to use jolt to manage aggro a little ? :beatup
for me poisons are good in solo where aggro is not an issue and where we can use some other utility poisons (slow, cripple etc...) in group or raid at this point of testing i am disappointed.
I don't know whether the negativity is part of the player game to pretend that nothing is good enough...in which case I wont say anything else after this post about it....
my sustained DPS, as a rogue entering MMM is around 1300, maybe a little less. A 500 point increase, or 40%, is incredible especially when the biggest increase out of all the AA's received with SOD was 150DPS with Spire.
I realize that end game rogues doing 2500DPS sustained won't be quite as happy, but I certainly did not expect the pissing and moaning that is going on.
1300 dps? i enter mmm too and with mb dagger and rottrued offhand i never do less than 2k dps unless im in front of the mob, my sustain is close to 2k5 i would say (i parse all fights in real time so im sure of what i say). And rangers with pet weapon and spells are doing the same...
I think you underestimate greatly your dps or you are doing something wrong.
250 dps is clearly noticeable but i waited more than that from a so wanted and waited revamp, considering the aggro tied to poisons and the dps of other melee dps / casters. That is not negativity that is what i think atm of the poisons but like i said in bold this is " at this point of testing" so i know things can change thats why i dont see all in black :)
EDIT : Just tested my sustained dps (5min in the back of a mob) wih ranger buffs, focus, mammoth, ench haste, and self overhaste 10% against level 80 dummy, no epic cast, no EB, no bleed, no poisons, just auto attack, thief eye and bs : Test Eighty in 301s, 1089k - Songsa 722k @2397
any idea what % the slow poison is?
Catweazel
04-07-09, 06:26 AM
1300 dps? i enter mmm too and with mb dagger and rottrued offhand i never do less than 2k dps unless im in front of the mob, my sustain is close to 2k5 i would say (i parse all fights in real time so im sure of what i say). And rangers with pet weapon and spells are doing the same...
I think you underestimate greatly your dps or you are doing something wrong.
250 dps is clearly noticeable but i waited more than that from a so wanted and waited revamp, considering the aggro tied to poisons and the dps of other melee dps / casters. That is not negativity that is what i think atm of the poisons but like i said in bold this is " at this point of testing" so i know things can change thats why i dont see all in black :)
EDIT : Just tested my sustained dps (5min in the back of a mob) wih ranger buffs, focus, mammoth, ench haste, and self overhaste 10% against level 80 dummy, no epic cast, no EB, no bleed, no poisons, just auto attack, thief eye and bs : Test Eighty in 301s, 1089k - Songsa 722k @2397
I don't think we have the same measuring approach.
Sinc was 2500 and I am pretty sure he is end game.
Sustained is measured over hours not minutes.
Ngreth Thergn
04-07-09, 06:39 AM
So Virulent Venom makes lynx and various bard songs proc more? So, even before these new and improved poisons, there was an actual good reason to purchase it... sadly, I have been passing it over all this time...
Yup.
If it is a spell (note spell, not just buff) on you, Virulent Venom increases the proc rate.
At the time it was made the only proc spells in wide use were poison. That has since changed.
Note from my hint above... This *can* have a detrimental side effect in some cases. There are "curse" type buffs (debuffs) that certain mobs (almost all, if not all raid mobs) add that make you proc something detrimental to you. That AA will affect those spells as well, increasing their proc rate.
Ngreth Thergn
04-07-09, 06:49 AM
People are free to be disappointed at a 250DPS increase. It is their opinion :) (and wow... 250DPS is large in grouping standards! But I guess that is your opinion not mine...)
But do remember.
#1 the current iteration is to increase Group DPS, not raid DPS. Sure it will increase raid DPS, but the numbers are small in raid terms
#2 I have said that we are being conservative to start.
We would much rather need to increase things later, than decrease them later.
Also don't forget, unique to you guys are also the utility poisons that have various debuff effects on the NPC's Other classes are NOT getting these.
Now just because I am saying this, it does not mean things will change. It does mean we are watching, and if things need to change we will. I also have a few ideas for raid useful DPS poisons. We just have to watch it, because "raid useful" poisons will tend to be very overpowering in group content.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 07:19 AM
Can I just say the new icons rock and potion belt able poisons are nice too.
The tradeskill Window "Search Recipes still brings up about 60 recipes. Are those still valid combines?
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:06 AM
The sealed poison vials are used for Rogue only poison recipes. The "open" vials are used in the all/all a.k.a "shared" poison recipes.
This raised a question for the dev because what you wrote is true for DDs but "Assist" (debuff) poisons use the non-sealed vials for the rogue only poison and the sealed vials are do not combine. It would have made more sense for the sealed to be the assist poison and the non-sealed to be the do not combine. I guess the only explanation is the dev wanted the extra plat cost for the assist line?
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:16 AM
Ok I finally put this together. This is an incredibly generous poison system to rogues.
So just to be clear for rogues you can have two proc poisons on. One from this list
Components and Effects:
Nigriventor - Direct Damage (All/All)
Goramar - DD + Hate (All/All)
Mamba - Self Only DD
Taipan - DD that expends more quickly (More Procs for less damage and fades sooner)
Choresine - Massive single use DD (12,415 for 85 version)
And one from this list:
Muscimol - Agro Debuff
Oleander - Slow
Larkspur - Snare
Caladium - Clumsy
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy
Privit - Accuracy debuff
Delphinium - Evasion debuff
They all can last two hours.
For the first list you can go the vendor and get a decent level 85 DD proc that cost a few gold and zero combines.
From the second list using just vendor components you can make level 40 versions of
Muscimol - Agro Debuff
Oleander - Slow
Larkspur - Snare
Caladium - Clumsy
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy
by just using vendor components.
3 *plat* an hour to put up a DD and a medicore debuff of your choice. Pots stack to 20 (40 hours worth) and are potion beltable.
Sweeet.... I give it a 9 out of 10. Just to be clear
THIS IS A ROGUE CLASS CHANGING PATCH. This is a HUGE patch.
Now make it so non-rogues can only use poisons with a rogue in group and nerf any single shot 12k DDs to a 4 second cast time so I dont feel the pressure to chain it and I am in heaven. The point of the 4 second cast time is to take a 6k dps at 2 second cast time and make it a 3k dps. 12k DD should be a solo start of mobs poison. 4 second cast time is fine, but only on the single shot DDs! No reason to go monkeying with cast time when it wouldn't mean anything. Do that and I think were talking 10 out of 10!
Ngreth Thergn
04-07-09, 08:16 AM
Can I just say the new icons rock and potion belt able poisons are nice too.
The tradeskill Window "Search Recipes still brings up about 60 recipes. Are those still valid combines?
Yup. just "sunset." They will stagnate and not be upgraded or made easier. (might be made harder... but no decision made yet. They will very likley be made such that they will not stack with the new poisons.
This raised a question for the dev because what you wrote is true for DDs but "Assist" (debuff) poisons use the non-sealed vials for the rogue only poison and the sealed vials are do not combine.
hrm? I am not sure what you are asking about.
IssusTruspirit
04-07-09, 08:16 AM
People are free to be disappointed at a 250DPS increase. It is their opinion :) (and wow... 250DPS is large in grouping standards! But I guess that is your opinion not mine...)
But do remember.
#1 the current iteration is to increase Group DPS, not raid DPS. Sure it will increase raid DPS, but the numbers are small in raid terms
#2 I have said that we are being conservative to start.
We would much rather need to increase things later, than decrease them later.
Also don't forget, unique to you guys are also the utility poisons that have various debuff effects on the NPC's Other classes are NOT getting these.
Now just because I am saying this, it does not mean things will change. It does mean we are watching, and if things need to change we will. I also have a few ideas for raid useful DPS poisons. We just have to watch it, because "raid useful" poisons will tend to be very overpowering in group content.
Hmmm... question here. I thought i remembered hearing someone talk about (or i could be imagining b/c i was hoping for an all/all, or at least for tanks/knight class usable heh) an aggro generating poison that was usable all/all?
That would be huge if that were available to us to make for the tanks to help maintain aggro during fights on the tanks :love That i bet would make us some $$$ selling them and dang near create some high demand i would think! But i'm probably dreaming here heheh
Just made these.
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of Ssraeshza XV.
Trivial (496)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of Ssraeshza VIII
Single Shot: 12.4k DD then dissipates.
Max Crit 28,599 dmg
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Celestial Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Choresine Sample
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of the Shissar XV
Trivial (492)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of the Shissar VIII
3067 base dmg DD, 7054 dmg max crit with Empowered Ingenuity 3
Looks as though its half the damage of the Consigned Bite of the Shissar XV but around twice the proc rate.
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Ethereal Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Taipan Venom
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Fixed
IssusTruspirit
04-07-09, 08:23 AM
Ok I finally put this together. This is an incredibly generous poison system to rogues.
And one from this list:
Muscimol - Agro Debuff
Oleander - Slow
Larkspur - Snare
Caladium - Clumsy
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy
Privit - Accuracy debuff
Delphinium - Evasion debuff
Of this list, do we know any %'s yet as to for instance what the max slow % is as well as amt's for the other's?
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:30 AM
Of this list, do we know any %'s yet as to for instance what the max slow % is as well as amt's for the other's?
We will know as soon as lucy parses this spell list =)
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:54 AM
Of this list, do we know any %'s yet as to for instance what the max slow % is as well as amt's for the other's?
I got these data mined so far for vendor level combines:
Caladium (fighter's bane III) -18 attack, +200 proc mod
Laburnum (warlord's bane III) -9 attack, -23% attack speed, +200 proc mod
Larkspur (messenger's bane III) +72 Chr, +0 attack, +200 proc mod....
Thats according to allak. We will assume that is bad info from old data on the last one? Doesn't make any sense.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:58 AM
Hey Ngreth, when I do tradeskill window for coffin bottle, and I search recipes with partial Name empty Fighter's Bane VI doesn't show on the list (none of the new poisons do thats what I am illustrating). But when I fill in partial name with "Fight" Fighter's Bane VI appears as learned.
Seems like a bug.
Coridila
04-07-09, 10:02 AM
Of this list, do we know any %'s yet as to for instance what the max slow % is as well as amt's for the other's?
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=22163
21% slow at rk1
68% slow at rk10
And some others that show up.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/search.html?q=poison+strike
Level 85 - ** Component
Level 80 - ** Component
Level 75 - ** Component
Level 70 - Fine Component
Level 65 - ** Component
Level 60 - Stale Component
Level 55 - Wilted Component
Level 50 - ** Component
Level 45 - Dry Component
lvl50 is Brittle
Coridila
04-07-09, 11:57 AM
Strike of Ssraeshza XV 12418 on NPC's, 8072 max so far on mercs, 4933 max so far on players.
Well...wth....this cant be right
Unrefined Poison Vial
Emulsifier
Suffusing Suspension Fluid
Grade A Muscimol Extract
Creates the ROG only level 40 agro debuff poison (see next post)
~~~
But if I substitute the ROG only item (Sealed Vial):
Unrefined Sealed Poison Vial
Emulsifier
Suffusing Suspension Fluid
Grade A Muscimol Extract
DNC
Why is there no combine there to make cheaper (better?) ones for rogs using our cheaper better vial? Something isnt right here.
The sealed poison vials are used for Rogue only poison recipes. The "open" vials are used in the all/all a.k.a "shared" poison recipes.
Unrefined Poison Vial
Emulsifier
Suffusing Suspension Fluid
Grade A Muscimol Extract
Makes a ROG only Quellious Trauma VI
No sealed vial there..so..uhh.../explode
brogett
04-07-09, 02:55 PM
The irony just struck me.
Strike of Ssraeshza XV is going to totally own Emperor Ssraeshza as it's miles more dps than we get with our old bane weapons :-)
moonglumm
04-07-09, 03:03 PM
I've been trying to do the Quellious Trauma VI using an Unrefined Sealed Poison Vial also and didn't combine at all. I tried different sealed ones and different suspension fluids also with the combine but none of them combined.
Are only the dps poisons going to be made using sealed vials (cheaper) or should the utility poisons also be able to be made with sealed vials and we haven't figured it out yet?
People are free to be disappointed at a 250DPS increase. It is their opinion :) (and wow... 250DPS is large in grouping standards! But I guess that is your opinion not mine...)
But do remember.
#1 the current iteration is to increase Group DPS, not raid DPS. Sure it will increase raid DPS, but the numbers are small in raid terms
#2 I have said that we are being conservative to start.
We would much rather need to increase things later, than decrease them later.
Also don't forget, unique to you guys are also the utility poisons that have various debuff effects on the NPC's Other classes are NOT getting these.
Now just because I am saying this, it does not mean things will change. It does mean we are watching, and if things need to change we will. I also have a few ideas for raid useful DPS poisons. We just have to watch it, because "raid useful" poisons will tend to be very overpowering in group content.
Thanks Ngreth for the hard work you have put in to the rogue class. I for one very much appreciate it and hope you have no plans of leaving EQ dev team!
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 04:02 PM
Hey negreth could you tell us the hate reduction on the quellious line? Preferably Tivia's Trauma Poison Strike III
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=22133
I just ask because without elaborate parsing like the warriors do for hate calculations, I don't see how you would learn of the number.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 04:07 PM
In the bazaar, in the Bazaar Search Window for select type. You can select to search "Potion" but you can't select "Poison". There doesn't seem to be parity between that.
a goblin deathchanter
04-07-09, 04:12 PM
Quellious's Trauma line needs an INT debuff.
Rearshot
04-07-09, 04:23 PM
Do the poison quests only give you the dps poison as a reward, or can you get the utility poisons too? If not, I really need someone on luclin to start selling those. Hate tradeskills. :/
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 06:12 PM
edit: About the sealed poisons. The book says this after you word cypher it:
There are two [types of vials[. One is only for our main poison and seals their fate. The other is for the poisons we share and the poisons we use to debuff.
I think understand the reason for the non-sealed poison vials in the rogue assist poison combines. The dev said the skill up poisons were the more expensive combines. The expense of a combine is almost entirely dictated by the cost of the vial. So the way to think of "sealed poison vial" versus "non-sealed poison vial" is probably "non-skill up combine" versus "skill up combine" and not rogue versus non-rogue poison as someone offered on this thread.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 06:30 PM
Request to dev:
Add 1pp item called "degrading sand powder" to the poison vendor and recipes on poison that degrade vials (no skill up and no fail).
So "Degrading Sand Power + Chronal Infused Sealed Vial" creates "Platinum Embossed Sealed Vial". Repeat to go all the way down to a unrefined vial.
Why? Because I have stocked up on supplies and I would like to be self-sufficient for long periods in "the field". Mainly to make non-rogue poisons for non-rogues in the group as they drop. I bought all the washing components. I bought "Chronal Infused Sealed Vial" + "Platinum Embossed Sealed Vial". Thinking that covers what we will see in a grind. And no sooner than I do than someone links a level 70 Fine item to wash and combine! I think pfft.
It would be nice to be able to buy the best vial and a 200 stack of degrading powder, and degrade vials down to whatever you need in the field. Thats how a ninja would roll! A ninja gnome maybe... It would be more expensive, but this is more of a "the expense is cool" request. Think of it this way: volunteering to make more plat leave the game using expensive vials on cheaper combines and paying for yet another component.
Anyone else think these things need to generate just a little less aggro?
I like the change, but it hurts so good~
Hmm, the aggro was huge tonight I did notice. So much so that I'm glad i didn't have any points in virulent venom ATM. Interestingly tho I had far better luck with evade tonight as well, coincidence? /shrug time will tell.
I see a lot of potential here, we'll just have to play with it some. It's such a big change we cannot expect it to be perfectly balanced the first iteration, so I'm sure we'll see some tweaking.
I do like the idea of a rogue having to be in group or raid for another class to use them, but honestly not that much different from a DS potion that anyone can use. But you have to be in a group with a shaman to get the benefit of Puma - so i could argue it both ways i guess.
Heres a question i didnt' see asked, will they work with the Toxicity line of discs? Warrior uses poison, I Tox them, Boom damage boost to the the poison they are using? That could make for some interesting combos and make it more likely to want a rogue in the group.
/shrug, There's my initial 2 cents. I have to say its a HUGE change, and I'm looking forward to playing with it BEFORE I start bashing it.
Thanks for all the work Ngreth. Rogues, lets go outand have some fun with it and enjoy being rogues again shall we?
Hettil
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 08:36 PM
Overall the poison change is a solid addition to the class. The only big complaint anyone could have is they simply don't like being "the tradeskill class".
For concerns:
It would be nice though if there was a minus dex poison in the utility line. Rogues liked to use that one on raids. It used to exist. It still got used to present day by some rogues. It didn't get replaced as far as I know. Thats a real complaint at some level. This would be a dropped component line not vendor. And truely it doesnt need to be created for less than level 70. It only takes on a power that makes it worth it when you are dealing with ramping or procing bosses.
Oh I guess the other passable concern is that we simply arn't used to direct damage proc agro of this size. Nobody is. This is fundamentally new. Its a little wild when it comes from procs because you cant space it out into a regular interval like you can with casters. You can't get to know your tank and find the amount of hate you can handle like you can when your casting DDs of that size. You either got to take the risk of a few bad procs early or not use them. You might get one proc in 30 seconds or you might get 3 in 6 seconds for mad agro right off the bat of a trash mob. These are very nasty uncontrollable spike agro that nobody else in any era or any class has ever dealt with. I enjoy the capacity of the poisons I just think thats a balance mitigator (meaning its not as powerful as it would be if that werent true).
I kind of laughing looking at all these enraging blow procs of 800hate when I am blasting off with 6k dd procs. For proc hate its on a whole different scale what we got going on here compared to the dedicated "hate procs". I am like "isn't your enragement cute... I'll show you fricken anger! Check this out!"
IssusTruspirit
04-07-09, 08:58 PM
For concerns:
It would be nice though if there was a minus dex poison in the utility line. Rogues liked to use that one on raids. It used to exist. It still got used to present day by some rogues. It didn't get replaced as far as I know. Thats a real complaint at some level. This would be a dropped component line not vendor. And truely it doesnt need to be created for less than level 70. It only takes on a power that makes it worth it when you are dealing with ramping or procing bosses.
For any rogue willing to take the time of a Vishimtar + Yar'lir kill for the Mask of the Hidden quest... the mask is a fairly fast recast on Assassin's Blood which is 150dd proc + -150 hate + -60 DEX debuff.
But currently i posted up in the main section about SK's Challenge for Power (CfP) overwriting Assassin's Blood and vice vs. And whether or not it's a big enough concern to ask the devs to see if they can make sure they both stack and not overwrite each other.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 09:02 PM
I just brought it up because it was something mentioned to me by a rogue that doesn't troll forums. They said they still were using -dex poisons in mmm. I pointed out they couldn't get those poison components anymore. And I passed on the concern here to see if a dev was aware that a rogue noticed it was nixed. And maybe -dex poisons shouldnt be nixed.
BTW I have that mask great clickee. Actually I am offhanding FJTB now so perma dex pwn there.
OK, so tonite was first chance at using the new poisons, and this is how it fared over 108 mobs. the poisons I used were the Bite of the shissar VIII (the level 85 poison?) over the course of the nite 112 casts, with 5 resists. The other one I used was the mymidon's sloth strike VI and it cast 360 times with 95 resists. More than 50% of all casts came back with a message of it being only slightly successful. Now I did have a few 14k crits, but most hits were in the 6200 range.
Over all, over the same number of mobs, over the last couple weeks, my net dps gain was 50dps. Where I have been averaging in the high 1700's, tonite was 1856 for the nite. Now understand this was solo, so no big numbers, but if this poison is supposed to help us solo, I don't see 50 dps doing that. Maybe it was just a bad RNG nite, but I think with 50% being only slightly successful, that may have been part of it too.
Success on making was 19 out of 50 tries with mastery 1, and a 7/7 trophy for the shissar, and 39 of 40 on the mymdon's.
Ok, so I'm trying to wrap my head around everything that went live today.
1) Weekly rotating ROG quest for poison supplies. (Type varies on week)
2) Tons of new ROG only recipes, updating all old poison varieties to current game strength. Using new global drops and items sold from new vendors.
3) 2 ALL/ALL recipes to create DPS or DPS+HATE poisons for others to use.
Is that it? I know the poisons ROG's get now are hugely improved and change ALOT, but I must have mistakenly read that there were going to be more all/all than just DPS.
clearbrooke
04-07-09, 09:15 PM
Pristine *** is the level 85 drop component.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 09:37 PM
I just got done Murdunks last stand with a tank from out of the guild. We know him and I would say that his gear would be "best group" but really its sprinkled with preSoF raid loots and early SoF raid loots.
Pretty much Shissar XV was unusuable when combined with a weapon advantage. But I wonder also if it is worst on the target audience of "groupers". The reason is it wasnt really about my weapons it was abotu procs early. A 6k proc in the first six seconds is just overwealming versus group weapons.
I had the genius idea though to start bagging lesser shissars to use with lesser agro tanks.
Qutsmnie
04-07-09, 09:43 PM
Hey dev. Bards get special hate rules for their songs on the basis that they have to recast them a lot and they arn't tanks. Both seem to apply to poison procs. Perhaps we could get special hate rules for poison procs?
Qutsmnie
04-08-09, 01:54 AM
nm I am dummy
silenceisgolden
04-08-09, 03:31 AM
did a few hours of fighting last night in 2 different groups. mainly used the SSherzra one for an opener and I was impressed. A few times i got a 28k crit blast plus my opening daggerlunge hit and the combined effort was $$$. In both groups when i was using strike of the shissar xv no one could get aggro off of me. well cashtiger ( serverwide #1 beasty and general PITA freind of mine) was using the spider bite vi (iirrc) and even with that running he could only pull aggro when using his high dps abilities and even then it was a ping pong match. I wasnt using the jolt line at all so Ill give that a go later thsi week. oh also while the shissar was proccing quite often the spider bite did nto proc a great deal at all but he was satisified with having the extra proc at all.
also which all/all is one that generates lots of hate? I need to make some before raids today and see what the tanks think of them
Qutsmnie
04-08-09, 03:53 AM
Spider bite VI isn't on lucy yet. What is the DD on it?
silenceisgolden
04-08-09, 03:57 AM
Spider bite VI isn't on lucy yet. What is the DD on it?
1400'ish 1426 seems to stick in my head for some reason.
Okay so far I have tried to make the Strike of the Shissar poison and was only successful at making the lvl 55 version which is IX. I also was told that I could not advance my skills form this. I have 275 skill and the 5% mod so I tried it with that equipped and still could not make the level 60 combine. I am guessing I may need at least 280 unmodded + the 5% to make the lvl 60s. Kind of lame that you cannot seemingly advance poison skills on this new poison system but oh well. I will keep trying when I can get more components and raise my skill. I am just disappointed that you need to skill on old stuff to make new stuff.
*Edit* Okay with 280 plus the 5% mod got me to 294 and I was able to make the lvl 60 strike poison. Plus, as a nice side bonus, it is letting me get skill ups. For now at least, no more farming supplies. I will post over in the other thread my findings on this combine and trivial.
-§ir
silenceisgolden
04-08-09, 06:02 AM
Monk's Bane Poison Strike I Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
2: Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 3%
3: Increase Poison Counter by 6
this Buffs the targets melee mitigation?? why would we buff a mob?
silenceisgolden
04-08-09, 06:04 AM
Sir de you may want to look at the other thread that ngreth posts in. he did state the dps lines werent relly manet for skillups btu the utility lines are. you may want to try some of those perhaps. I have not yet so this is jsut a suggestion.
Sir de you may want to look at the other thread that ngreth posts in. he did state the dps lines werent relly manet for skillups btu the utility lines are. you may want to try some of those perhaps. I have not yet so this is jsut a suggestion.Yeah wading through that thread was kind of daunting. I decided to do a little trial and error but that is good info to know. I will try to find a point in time to look it over and see which ones are the utilities for skilling up. Thanks.
-§ir
I don't think we have the same measuring approach.
Sinc was 2500 and I am pretty sure he is end game.
Sustained is measured over hours not minutes.
sinc was self buff not raid buffed and if i do 2k4 dps in 5min ill not do 1k3 5hours later doing the same thing.
Btw i dont think it is the good thread to speak about that.
Qutsmnie
04-08-09, 06:58 AM
Three times now I have been linked poison components that dropped for guildees and each of them has been the sort that doesn't need washing. Did the washing subcombined system not make it to live? That would be nice. Im a subcombine h8r! Plus that would be 4 things (washing stuff) that I could remove from my bags. Why oh why do you feel the need to make a subcombine that people might want me to do in the field take 4 ingredients! Is it cause you don't want them done in the field? And why should it take more and more items to wash something as you level up? Why should the game get suckier like that? (we are back to that wtf moment you get when you step back and look at things getting harder as you level when seen from a far). I am talking about turning raw components into base components.
Ililith
04-08-09, 07:19 AM
I got 1 poison component drop over few hours, it was a pristine type that needed washing.
On top of it it is not a no fail combine (failed with max aa skill and trophy).
Drop rate needs to be up'd for sure (shouldn't be harder than alchemy pottery or even tailoring and smithing).
About our DD poisons, they are all nice and help our sustained some. As much as I agree they should give hate in the current state it is way way too much. It is totally unmanageable: quest reward bite of shissar XV + sleight hand + dreams of drusella (tried since yet have to see components for the new de aggro one) + chain evading made it impossible for the warriors to keep aggro over me. Chain evading is a loss of dps so is having mob face us and attack off.
On a fight last night I escaped mob's health was below 40% hit points. I start attacking again (not even disc'ing) within 10 to 15 sec I was whoring the aggro again.
Another rogue tested with just attack on no backstabs no discs and he was pulling aggro over our tanks. It is risky and annoying for us but it is extremely upsetting and frustating for the tanks, they do get pretty pissy.
In the current state it disrupts groups / raids and it is a major issue for warriors that is it just not worth it not even dps wise.
I think it needs to be reevaluated completely so that at least our tools allow us to dump enough aggro and by that I do not mean to see it come to chain evading because even that is not worth it imo.
I think to solve it we need to lower the hate that it gives to something decent and also increase the hate dump of evade (although I have no idea if that is possible) in order for us to be able to not be on HoTT with 1 successful evade.
Ngreth Thergn
04-08-09, 07:39 AM
I got these data mined so far for vendor level combines:
Caladium (fighter's bane III) -18 attack, +200 proc mod
Laburnum (warlord's bane III) -9 attack, -23% attack speed, +200 proc mod
Larkspur (messenger's bane III) +72 Chr, +0 attack, +200 proc mod....
Thats according to allak. We will assume that is bad info from old data on the last one? Doesn't make any sense.
Yes. This should be fixed live. Messenger's bane is a snare. It was a bit bugged, but I fixed it before it went live.
Well...wth....this cant be right
Unrefined Poison Vial
Emulsifier
Suffusing Suspension Fluid
Grade A Muscimol Extract
Creates the ROG only level 40 agro debuff poison (see next post)
~~~
But if I substitute the ROG only item (Sealed Vial):
Unrefined Sealed Poison Vial
Emulsifier
Suffusing Suspension Fluid
Grade A Muscimol Extract
DNC
Why is there no combine there to make cheaper (better?) ones for rogs using our cheaper better vial? Something isnt right here.
The "utility" poisons are NOT intended to be as cheep as the DPS. The DPS is "necessary" the utility is "bonus" and thus costs some "real" money. the prices are comparable to potions.
The irony just struck me.
Strike of Ssraeshza XV is going to totally own Emperor Ssraeshza as it's miles more dps than we get with our old bane weapons :-)
heh :)
Hey negreth could you tell us the hate reduction on the quellious line? Preferably Tivia's Trauma Poison Strike III
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=22133
I just ask because without elaborate parsing like the warriors do for hate calculations, I don't see how you would learn of the number.
It is variable... but...
take the "unknown calc" number, and see where it says 20XX (where XX is two more digits) that XX is the level multiplier. the level on a poison is set, and does not match your level. In the end this is the same "hate" as the Strike of Shissar base poison, but it procs at twice the rate, meaning it will remove more hate (about 2X, though not exactly that) than is added by the DPS poison because of the accelerated rate. (82*72 = 5904 for the XV poison)
*NOTE* When I reduce the hate generated by the DPS poisons I will need to reduce the effectiveness of this as well.
In the bazaar, in the Bazaar Search Window for select type. You can select to search "Potion" but you can't select "Poison". There doesn't seem to be parity between that.
That is a code change, but I can ask. The way the bazarr works though, in the end, that may just have to be potion/poison they is no good way for the bazaar to tell the difference between the two.
Quellious's Trauma line needs an INT debuff.
Do the poison quests only give you the dps poison as a reward, or can you get the utility poisons too? If not, I really need someone on luclin to start selling those. Hate tradeskills. :/
Yes, they only give the base DPS poisons. You might be able to find a rogue friend to make the others for you.
edit: About the sealed poisons. The book says this after you word cypher it:
I think understand the reason for the non-sealed poison vials in the rogue assist poison combines. The dev said the skill up poisons were the more expensive combines. The expense of a combine is almost entirely dictated by the cost of the vial. So the way to think of "sealed poison vial" versus "non-sealed poison vial" is probably "non-skill up combine" versus "skill up combine" and not rogue versus non-rogue poison as someone offered on this thread.
Correct. This is one of the reasons. The DPS are NOT for skill gain, the utility ARE for skill gain. Skill gain needs to cost some money.
Hmm, the aggro was huge tonight I did notice. So much so that I'm glad i didn't have any points in virulent venom ATM. Interestingly tho I had far better luck with evade tonight as well, coincidence? /shrug time will tell.
I see a lot of potential here, we'll just have to play with it some. It's such a big change we cannot expect it to be perfectly balanced the first iteration, so I'm sure we'll see some tweaking.
I do like the idea of a rogue having to be in group or raid for another class to use them, but honestly not that much different from a DS potion that anyone can use. But you have to be in a group with a shaman to get the benefit of Puma - so i could argue it both ways i guess.
Heres a question i didnt' see asked, will they work with the Toxicity line of discs? Warrior uses poison, I Tox them, Boom damage boost to the the poison they are using? That could make for some interesting combos and make it more likely to want a rogue in the group.
/shrug, There's my initial 2 cents. I have to say its a HUGE change, and I'm looking forward to playing with it BEFORE I start bashing it.
Thanks for all the work Ngreth. Rogues, lets go outand have some fun with it and enjoy being rogues again shall we?
Hettil
the Toxicity requires the the spell cast have a mana cost of at least 10, the procs have a cost of 0 so will NOT be increased.
Ok, so I'm trying to wrap my head around everything that went live today.
1) Weekly rotating ROG quest for poison supplies. (Type varies on week)
2) Tons of new ROG only recipes, updating all old poison varieties to current game strength. Using new global drops and items sold from new vendors.
3) 2 ALL/ALL recipes to create DPS or DPS+HATE poisons for others to use.
Is that it? I know the poisons ROG's get now are hugely improved and change ALOT, but I must have mistakenly read that there were going to be more all/all than just DPS.
I do *not* want the extra utility added to anyone but rogues. The extra utility is for rogues only, and current plans are for it to stay that way. There are no current intentions for more all/all poisons.
Monk's Bane Poison Strike I Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
2: Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 3%
3: Increase Poison Counter by 6
this Buffs the targets melee mitigation?? why would we buff a mob?
I think that is old data in the parser. I remember a bug, and think it was for this one, it should have been fixed before the patch.
Ngreth Thergn
04-08-09, 07:46 AM
Three times now I have been linked poison components that dropped for guildees and each of them has been the sort that doesn't need washing. Did the washing subcombined system not make it to live? That would be nice. Im a subcombine h8r! Plus that would be 4 things (washing stuff) that I could remove from my bags. Why oh why do you feel the need to make a subcombine that people might want me to do in the field take 4 ingredients! Is it cause you don't want them done in the field? And why should it take more and more items to wash something as you level up? Why should the game get suckier like that? (we are back to that wtf moment you get when you step back and look at things getting harder as you level when seen from a far). I am talking about turning raw components into base components.
the lower level ones do not need washing, the higher level ones do.
The parts stack well at least!
Also, I believe that the DPS poison parts do not need "washing" and that is solely for the Utility poison parts (the gain skill stuff)
I got 1 poison component drop over few hours, it was a pristine type that needed washing.
On top of it it is not a no fail combine (failed with max aa skill and trophy).
Drop rate needs to be up'd for sure (shouldn't be harder than alchemy pottery or even tailoring and smithing).
About our DD poisons, they are all nice and help our sustained some. As much as I agree they should give hate in the current state it is way way too much. It is totally unmanageable: quest reward bite of shissar XV + sleight hand + dreams of drusella (tried since yet have to see components for the new de aggro one) + chain evading made it impossible for the warriors to keep aggro over me. Chain evading is a loss of dps so is having mob face us and attack off.
On a fight last night I escaped mob's health was below 40% hit points. I start attacking again (not even disc'ing) within 10 to 15 sec I was whoring the aggro again.
Another rogue tested with just attack on no backstabs no discs and he was pulling aggro over our tanks. It is risky and annoying for us but it is extremely upsetting and frustating for the tanks, they do get pretty pissy.
In the current state it disrupts groups / raids and it is a major issue for warriors that is it just not worth it not even dps wise.
I think it needs to be reevaluated completely so that at least our tools allow us to dump enough aggro and by that I do not mean to see it come to chain evading because even that is not worth it imo.
I think to solve it we need to lower the hate that it gives to something decent and also increase the hate dump of evade (although I have no idea if that is possible) in order for us to be able to not be on HoTT with 1 successful evade.
the drop rate is in the 15-20% range... It FAR outsrips the old poisons people have been complaining about for a while. It is fairly high already! Racial target mobs are your best bet as well.
Qutsmnie
04-08-09, 08:24 AM
'Also, I believe that the DPS poison parts do not need "washing"'
That explains that all the ones I saw were dps. I will bank my washing components. I had them for others. But since everyone that isn't me uses dps components no need to be prepared to wash! Just need to be prepared to make.
"It is variable... but...
take the "unknown calc" number, and see where it says 20XX (where XX is two more digits) that XX is the level multiplier. the level on a poison is set, and does not match your level. In the end this is the same "hate" as the Strike of Shissar base poison, but it procs at twice the rate, meaning it will remove more hate (about 2X, though not exactly that) than is added by the DPS poison because of the accelerated rate. (82*72 = 5904 for the XV poison)
*NOTE* When I reduce the hate generated by the DPS poisons I will need to reduce the effectiveness of this as well."
Wow thats nice. Thanks for the info. Doubt anyone would have known forever bout its value. Thats a great poison.
IssusTruspirit
04-08-09, 09:00 AM
the drop rate is in the 15-20% range... It FAR outsrips the old poisons people have been complaining about for a while. It is fairly high already! Racial target mobs are your best bet as well.
Ngreth could you elaborate a bit as far as racial targets go? or can anyone enlighten me on this? I'm not quite grasping exactly what a racial target mob is. Is that like saying if i'm a DE rogue... i should look to killing High Elves b/c there's some sort of increased chance for a poison component to drop as they're racial enemies?
Ngreth
Awsome job sir, thank you for the great new poison system! The new dps and utility poisons have really drawn me back into poison making!!
Ngreth could you elaborate a bit as far as racial targets go? or can anyone enlighten me on this? I'm not quite grasping exactly what a racial target mob is. Is that like saying if i'm a DE rogue... i should look to killing High Elves b/c there's some sort of increased chance for a poison component to drop as they're racial enemies?
He means class targets. Kill rogue mobs.
I have found the following items in Hills of Shade
Superior is the name for level 80 drops
Delphinium
Larkspur
Caladium
Laburnum
Oleander
Privit
Using the nuetral wash/waters bane/Formic acid/Solusek nodule + one of the above leaves made Purified Grade A _____ extract. AND 30 Inert poison grains.
No idea what the grains are for
Then using
Platinum embossed poison vial
Emulsifer
Suffusing suspention fluid
ADD your purified Grad A material and you get the following level 80 poisons
Oleander >>>>>Myrmidons Sloth XIV
Delphinium >>>>Monk's Bane XIV
Caladium>>>>>>Fighter's Bane XIV
Larkspur>>>>>>Messenger's Bane XIV
Laburnum>>>>>Warlord's Bane XIV
Privit>>>>>>>>Archer's Bane XIV
Muscimol I can only assume will work in this reciepe. I have not found any Muscimol.
Swich
Bargai_Stromm
04-08-09, 11:21 AM
He means class targets. Kill rogue mobs.
Ngreth might have also meant meant what he said, racial. I was helping a guildy do the Bayles quest and noticed something. Snakes seem to drop venom (i.e., mamba an taipan). Plants were dropping things like oleander and delphinium. This lead me to wonder where I might find some level 85 snakes and plants.
Bargai_Stromm
04-08-09, 11:55 AM
I have found the following items in Hills of Shade
Superior is the name for level 80 drops
Delphinium
Larkspur
Caladium
Laburnum
Oleander
Privit
. . .
AND 30 Inert poison grains.
No idea what the grains are for
. . .
I am kind of curious about these also.
Inert Poison Grain
Quest
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
Size: SMALL
Weight: 0.2
Stacks to 1000, No tradeskill tag. Vendor purchace and sell price is 1 copper.
Flerin Na'Shalith, one of the new Poison Suppliers in the PoK, has an unlimited supply of these.
Catweazel
04-08-09, 12:43 PM
If it is anything like cultural, then it is normally a level range of mobs for desired drops.
Based on killing all assassins in POH, level 63 Assassins drop level 65 ingredients but level 61 Agents drop level 60 ingredients.
On this basis, the snakes in OGH and BB pit might drop level 75 components, and I cannot think of any snakes higher level than these.
HOS (off the top of my head) with humanoids?, mulches and mushrooms are max level 83.
There are high level mechanical snakes in some SOF zones but they might be marked as constructs.
IssusTruspirit
04-08-09, 01:02 PM
I'm having trouble locating any vendor selling Muscimol for the de-aggro poison.... can anyone let me know what vendor and what zone he's in please and local whereabouts? I haven't been able to get on yet sine the patch as i've been stuck pulling an all-niter at work and with raids tonight.. i was hoping to find the components to mix some of these up on the fly while heading to raids.
Thanks all!
Coridila
04-08-09, 02:07 PM
I'm having trouble locating any vendor selling Muscimol for the de-aggro poison.... can anyone let me know what vendor and what zone he's in please and local whereabouts? I haven't been able to get on yet sine the patch as i've been stuck pulling an all-niter at work and with raids tonight.. i was hoping to find the components to mix some of these up on the fly while heading to raids.
Thanks all!
Quellious' Trauma VI
Unrefined Poison Vial - Flerin
Grade A Muscimol Extract - Flerin
Suffusing Suspension Fluid - Flerin
Emulsifier - Flerin
Anyone happen to notice their poisons fading randomly after a proc?
Cause I have~
Anyone happen to notice their poisons fading randomly after a proc?
Cause I have~
I heard after 60 procs it fades. Is this true?
IssusTruspirit
04-08-09, 02:27 PM
Quellious' Trauma VI
Unrefined Poison Vial - Flerin
Grade A Muscimol Extract - Flerin
Suffusing Suspension Fluid - Flerin
Emulsifier - Flerin
Is Flerin the vendor in PoK in the West trader bldg with the other poison vendors?
Catweazel
04-08-09, 02:32 PM
Is Flerin the vendor in PoK in the West trader bldg with the other poison vendors?
Yes
I heard after 60 procs it fades. Is this true?
Yes
60 procs is way too low. Part of what made these things seem so damn good was the uber long duration.
What is the harm in just fixing them to last for their entire duration? It's not like its a huge plat sink or anything, nor would this detract from the skill in any way.
Also, I saw it stated previously that the dd poisons form the quest would last a while, if not the duration of the week lock out.
If that is the intention, you're missing it by a mile with this 60 proc limit.
Catweazel
04-08-09, 04:10 PM
I am averaging about 2 - 3 procs per minute over maybe 200 mobs checked.
It is kind of an advertising issue only in my opinion.....
If we had been told 60 procs for 1pp.....OK
The 2 hours is a little confusing but nice if you solo slowly.
I think he means the utility poisons. 60 procs on utility poisons (which are going off like..... 10 times a minute) are kind of crazy.
Ngreth, I was attempting my first task for the new poison and so I followed the advice by the task giver to conceal myself and follow the directions of the quest. Found my target and proceeded to attack. I had a merc cleric up (just in case) but he isn't that tough and I was burning him down. Then WHACK I get hit for 91,735 by a Militia guard, ok I think, that is the danger for doing this quest. I can live with that. I come back thinking I have time to stealth after zoning in. I zone in and before I can do anything, WHACK another 91,435 LOADING PLEASE WAIT. Ok I like a good challenge as much as the next guy, but does this mean I am basically KOS in West Freeport near the portal from now on? After going back a fourth time I burned down my target, got my reward, SoS and as I am walking out a regular militia guard starts beating on me, didn't want to take a faction hit so ran to the POK book and zoned out. Came back and conned the militia, now they are indifferent.
I just don't want to have to remember every time I come to West Freeport to SoS or basically get death-touched (really? 91,735...guess you were making sure) and it wouldn't be so bad if the nasty dude was somehow able to be timed better, but on EM server he warps around and I haven't been able to pick up his pattern yet. Any chance he can be changed so he doesn't warp around as much?
Qutsmnie
04-08-09, 06:29 PM
I am averaging about 2 - 3 procs per minute over maybe 200 mobs checked.
It is kind of an advertising issue only in my opinion.....
If we had been told 60 procs for 1pp.....OK
The 2 hours is a little confusing but nice if you solo slowly.
I will admit I wasn't aware of it when I first started too. But I would cry to see the 2 hours nerfed to make it shorter. Its a good system. I worry when I see complaints about things like this because SoE has been known to dismantle complication in preference for simplicity. And I don't think I would be better off if they did.
Proc's per minute.
I was using the Shissar bite XV which the icon shows as Shissar VIII but ok I was proc'ing just about 5 to 6 times per mob average fight lasting 50 seconds and was raking up 40 to 55K in procs per kill. this was in HoS against level 80 to 84 mobs with CHampion--Savage gaurd--Taelosian guard-- and Celerity on. and yes I was holding agro off my merc tank.. normal proc was 6210. and was critiing for 14.5K.
As for the Freeport quest.. Yes as long as you have the quest you are KOS. no matter where you are. SOS before you zone in.
After dieing 7 times to this I finally got a group of rogues together with a ranger we all got to the same stage in quest ( Deall with Pexx) and then had one rogue set off bomb and we killed him fast before getting killed again )
Swich
Thurgle
04-08-09, 07:05 PM
I think it is intended to last 10-15 minutes like PoP poisons but they give a 2 hour allowance for travel time and afk breaks etc.
Ngreth Thergn
04-09-09, 06:18 AM
Ngreth could you elaborate a bit as far as racial targets go? or can anyone enlighten me on this? I'm not quite grasping exactly what a racial target mob is. Is that like saying if i'm a DE rogue... i should look to killing High Elves b/c there's some sort of increased chance for a poison component to drop as they're racial enemies?
Scorpions drop scorpion venom
Snakes drop snake venom
Spider drop Spider Venom
Insects (and birds I think without looking it up) drop an insect poison
Sporali drop mushroom parts
Plants drop plant parts
That is what I mean by "racial" the global loot will find anything of the appropriate race, check its level, and then roll the chance for a drop based on that level, and if the roll "wins" choose an appropriate drop for the level and place it on the NPC.
Then I have an additional "if Humanoid and Rogue" have 20%ish chance to drop ANY part or a poison.
Then I have "If Humanoid" have a tiny chance (.07%) to also drop any component or poison. I have this at a tiny chance just as a global (and humanoids are VERY global... can find some in almost every zone in the game) chance to have the components, creating an ovral generic availability of the items, probably bazaar or guild/friend collection, while not flooding the world with them.
Ngreth Thergn
04-09-09, 06:33 AM
I am kind of curious about these also.
Inert Poison Grain
Quest
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
Size: SMALL
Weight: 0.2
Stacks to 1000, No tradeskill tag. Vendor purchace and sell price is 1 copper.
Flerin Na'Shalith, one of the new Poison Suppliers in the PoK, has an unlimited supply of these.
I used this as a "cash" balancing mechanic. I wanted to reduce the overall amount of parts needed to buy and keep around, but doing that made the pricing of things not work out properly... so... I made some combines more expensive than I intended, and then added these as a "cash recovery" to bring the cash DOWN to the appropriate amount. The SOLE purpose of these is to be sold to an NPC to recover cash. They also stack to 1000 so you can hang onto them for a while.
I heard after 60 procs it fades. Is this true?
Yes
I am averaging about 2 - 3 procs per minute over maybe 200 mobs checked.
It is kind of an advertising issue only in my opinion.....
If we had been told 60 procs for 1pp.....OK
The 2 hours is a little confusing but nice if you solo slowly.
While I was vague about it, I never really promised a full 2 hours.
The intent is for the DPS poisons to last about 30 minutes of actual swinigng the weapon, with the 1.5 hours of "padding" to allow for travel, pulling, positioning, etc.
Of course this does NOT account for virulent venom which moves the proc rate up by 1ppm (proc per minute) if you have it maxed. DPS poisons are 2ppm in general (there is a "fast" one at 4ppm) and virulent venom moves this to 3ppm if maxed. (5ppm for the fast) so it moves the 30 minutes to 20 minutes.
I am *considering* (this is *not* a promise, I want to give it full consideration before I actually do it) scaling the number of procs up in the level ranges when virulent venom becomes available.
As for the Utility... I left it at about half the duration, but I am more strongly considering raising that to 30 minutes as well, but maybe *not* taking into effect virulent venom.
I think he means the utility poisons. 60 procs on utility poisons (which are going off like..... 10 times a minute) are kind of crazy.
yeah, see above.
Ngreth, I was attempting my first task for the new poison and so I followed the advice by the task giver to conceal myself and follow the directions of the quest. Found my target and proceeded to attack. I had a merc cleric up (just in case) but he isn't that tough and I was burning him down. Then WHACK I get hit for 91,735 by a Militia guard, ok I think, that is the danger for doing this quest. I can live with that. I come back thinking I have time to stealth after zoning in. I zone in and before I can do anything, WHACK another 91,435 LOADING PLEASE WAIT. Ok I like a good challenge as much as the next guy, but does this mean I am basically KOS in West Freeport near the portal from now on? After going back a fourth time I burned down my target, got my reward, SoS and as I am walking out a regular militia guard starts beating on me, didn't want to take a faction hit so ran to the POK book and zoned out. Came back and conned the militia, now they are indifferent.
I just don't want to have to remember every time I come to West Freeport to SoS or basically get death-touched (really? 91,735...guess you were making sure) and it wouldn't be so bad if the nasty dude was somehow able to be timed better, but on EM server he warps around and I haven't been able to pick up his pattern yet. Any chance he can be changed so he doesn't warp around as much?
I am not fully cognizant of these quests. Nodyin made them all while I was busy making the poisons. The intent for the kill ones is that you kill VERY fast. And immediately hide.
Also the guards are only automatically KOS if you are on the quest. If you are not on the quest, and your faction is good with the city, they will treat you like any other guard and as long as you don;t attack a city member they will leave you be. Of course if you are KOS NORMALLY in the city, then they are an extra hazard.
I did hear mention that Nodyin is going to greatly reduce their agro range to help in the "non quest" times. (this will not affect the quest because the quest specifically "calls for help")
silenceisgolden
04-09-09, 06:34 AM
I love direct answers. thanks Ngreth
* ahhh, yeah a few peoepl ahve been complaining b/c they are KOS in the zone and gettign whakced by these guys
Gkortiz
04-09-09, 07:56 AM
Been having problems trying to set up a buyer for these new items. When I run a simple search on "Pristine" or "Muscimol" nothing poison related is coming up in buyer window.
For now I've been going through items in /baz, on my server we have people trying to sell single ingredients for 10-50k (which is fine, but the same prices will be passed on from my trader)... Would be nicer to set up the buyer though, and obviously cheaper.
Hirotoshi
04-09-09, 08:55 AM
More Bank space please !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the straight answers Ngreth :) Like that.
As a suggestion - and if it would be too difficult I understand, but it might make sense both from a game play aspect AND a roleplay/lore aspect if the Toxicity line DID affect these poisons. You know "I'm gonna give you this poison and I'm gonna teach you how to use it better" kinda thing. May also help with the aggro management if I give the tank the poison, and boost his damage with it a bit ... .
Still love it, having fun with it :) SOOO many new toys to play with and so little time.
Would it be possible for the poison buff to not fade upon death like the vet xp AA doesn't fade upon death? My dagger should still have poison on it even though I was struck down by a moss snake.
Ngreth -- sincere thanks for your think-through on this system. Its pretty amazing really and changes a lot of things.
It basically adds a full new avenue for DPS for rogues.
I'm a little interested on how dev in general has seemed "afraid" of backstab and downright terrified of assassinate.
Instead of increasing backstab damage as we level, we tend to get just "more backstabs" (i.e. triple). Plenty of other classes have skills that are, in effect, backstab. They do plenty of damage on an interval timer. This is pretty clear given how often monks and zerks and other melee can outdamage rogues. Clearly, backstab is no longer a unique concept at all.
I group with a 76 wizzie (I'm a 76 rogue) and he has maxed out his crits. Seeing him crit for 20k is very very common which makes me wonder about the fear of backstab (and assassinate).
In any case - this is all just idle thinking. These poisons rock and provide a wonderful rogue-specific boost.
thanks!
Ngreth:
"I am not fully cognizant of these quests. Nodyin made them all while I was busy making the poisons. The intent for the kill ones is that you kill VERY fast. And immediately hide.
Also the guards are only automatically KOS if you are on the quest. If you are not on the quest, and your faction is good with the city, they will treat you like any other guard and as long as you don;t attack a city member they will leave you be. Of course if you are KOS NORMALLY in the city, then they are an extra hazard.
I did hear mention that Nodyin is going to greatly reduce their agro range to help in the "non quest" times. (this will not affect the quest because the quest specifically "calls for help")"
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining. BTW I love the new poisons. :)
One more question... Ngreth wrote somewhere how proc'ing worked and something about the code "checks if you proc, then it randoms which proc goes off".
Does this mean having Envenomed Blades up with a new poison means that I'm proc'ing EB sometimes instead of the new poison ? (i.e. the new poison is much better obviously).
Lets say I wanted to maximize DPS - would having just "one" new poison on be the best? Even no assist poison or old-poison or EB, etc? Seems not right so I probably misunderstood.
Qutsmnie
04-09-09, 01:07 PM
Youll be fine.
Anyone else experienced an issue with Messenger's Bane IV, in which the "snared" mob runs away at SoW+ speeds?
Cause I just did~
Anyone else experienced an issue with Messenger's Bane IV, in which the "snared" mob runs away at SoW+ speeds?
Cause I just did~
Aye, snare is not working.
Eleena Transient
04-09-09, 02:54 PM
Scorpions drop scorpion venom
Snakes drop snake venom
Spider drop Spider Venom
Insects (and birds I think without looking it up) drop an insect poison
Sporali drop mushroom parts
Plants drop plant parts
That is what I mean by "racial" the global loot will find anything of the appropriate race, check its level, and then roll the chance for a drop based on that level, and if the roll "wins" choose an appropriate drop for the level and place it on the NPC.
Then I have an additional "if Humanoid and Rogue" have 20%ish chance to drop ANY part or a poison.
Then I have "If Humanoid" have a tiny chance (.07%) to also drop any component or poison. I have this at a tiny chance just as a global (and humanoids are VERY global... can find some in almost every zone in the game) chance to have the components, creating an ovral generic availability of the items, probably bazaar or guild/friend collection, while not flooding the world with them.
Expanding on this
Muscimol - Jolt - Fungus
Oleander - Slow - Plant
Larkspur - Snare - Plant
Caladium - Clumsy - Plant
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy - Plant
Privit - Accuracy - Plant
Delphinium - Evasion - Plant
Nigriventor - all dps - Spider
Gormar - all hate - Scorpion
Mamba - rogue dps - snake (store bought)
Taipan - rogue dps (fast) - snake (store bought)
Choresine - rogue big dd - insect / frog / bird (store bought)
So, if we want the best utility poisons we need to farm level 85 plants (or fungus for jolt), so I guess stuff in RCC. Spiders and Scorpions drop the parts for stuff we'd sell, so I guess Korascian Warrens spiders for dps, nothing that high for hate (sorry tanks). Snakes are worthless since we get all those on the vendor.
Hunting humanoids is going to be nearly impossible since only rogues drop at any frequency (7 in 10000 is nonexistant) and rogues are rarish. For max level stuff, that means you are restricted to only some kyvs in Bloodfield, CoD, and precipice of war. All the kyv in Korafax are warriors. Some of the toskirakk ogres are too, a Rallosian slayer are random spawns and a Shivstalker thief are found on south side of zone (maybe a dozen of them).
I'd like to see the snake drops removed from humans if possible since they are storebought anyway.
Qutsmnie
04-09-09, 04:00 PM
At first I thought wow plants are the bomb, but then I thought no if your trying to get something specific fungus are the bomb.
Ngreth I have a plea for you. The Shissar XV is nice...I'm loving the extra DPS on it and the 3 hr timer which helps if I have to afk for 20 mins etc etc however it runs through it's 60 procs fairly quickly. I don't want something for nothing but I am rather limited on bag space and these shissar XV stack to only 20...what my proposition to you is would it be possible to do one of these things:
1. Double the cost of the poisons and double the number of procs it will do before it fades ie 120 procs for double the price. I totally have no problem with paying more for it to last longer. :)
2. Triple the cost of the poisons and triple the number of procs before it runs out...ie 180 procs total.
3. Or have the poisons stack to 100 and leave as is...
My 2 coppers,
Caedus
PS. Omg I had to edit this message to change the word potions to poisons. I am so fired as a rogue. :)
Qutsmnie
04-09-09, 05:10 PM
Oh man I just went on my first hunting mission for components... umm... I realized accumulating components or pots for these situational poison was going to make me cry:
Oleander - Slow (Plant)
Larkspur - Snare (Plant)
Caladium - Clumsy (Plant)
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy (Plant)
Privit - Accuracy debuff (Plant)
Delphinium - Evasion debuff (Plant)
The reason is you just dont have 6 stacks to store. You have 6x whatever level range you encounter to store! What a pain. Desperately need a code change that makes it easy to store tons of poisons if you expect me to carry these around.
Ililith
04-09-09, 05:57 PM
First of all thank you Ngreth for the replies and all the hard work.
Some more feedback / thoughts:
As rasper pointed out some components are just going to be extreme hard to get such as lvl 85 Gomar. I have yet to find some.
I understand that the drop rate is better than the old poison system (although it does not hold true for all... it was fairly easy to get supplies for Spine rend and shissar) but I do not believe it should be as low.
Also, I believe that the DPS poison parts do not need "washing" and that is solely for the Utility poison parts (the gain skill stuff) So to make a utility poison we have 2 chances of skill up but also 2 combines to succeed in order to actually craft 1 poison. To that add that those utility poisons are used much faster than DPS ones since they proc more. I fail to see the logic, unless getting high lvl utility poisons is going to be rare and we will not want to use them most of the time saving them only for a very special occasion.If it is a question of skilling why then not move the "wash" part to the DPS poisons? Besides so far to max out poisons we can still use the old poisons supplies not being rare at all.
It is fairly easy to craft powersources, or potions and they do not require hardcore farming.
Strike of Ssraeshza XV: this really confuses me and I do not know what to think of it. 2 sec cast time for a 12k DD or 24+k crit .... are we turning into casters? I could probably chain it till I got owned and make some casters upset. It is an instant taunt for sure but besides that only thing I see is other classes especially casters going WTF and getting upset / frustraded. As for me I do not see any use into it and yes it made me laugh to try it once but that is it. I would rather have backstabs like that, melee type of crits :) Maybe I will keep a few for snap aggro in desperate group situation but I can taunt pretty fast already with the Shissar one that I can't see a situation where it would make a difference.
Scorpions drop scorpion venom
Snakes drop snake venom
Spider drop Spider Venom
Insects (and birds I think without looking it up) drop an insect poison
Sporali drop mushroom parts
Plants drop plant parts
Has anybody tried hitting the spiders in Sverag, by any chance? Was in the there tonight while the drachnids were up, just by coincidence, and was a bit disappointed to not see any poison drops. I may have just not killed enough, though (unless the drachnids themselves are supposed to have spider drops too).
Catweazel
04-09-09, 08:36 PM
Killed all the regular spiders in DSH and got no drops either...
Killed over 10 cursed spiders in old commonlands, and never saw a drop.
Anyone else experienced an issue with Messenger's Bane IV, in which the "snared" mob runs away at SoW+ speeds?
Cause I just did~
Same here. I tried different grades of Messenger's Bane and none of them snared. These are mobs I previously had no problems snaring with Spine Rend.
brogett
04-10-09, 04:11 AM
Firstly, *MANY* thanks Ngreth. You've somehow balanced the tricky position of making poisons useful without having to make tradeskills mandatory.
Verified drops:
Purified Grade AA Nigriventer Venom from a moss spider in warrens.
Purified Grade AA Choresine Sample from a frog in warrens, same camp.
Choresine is a beetle, but I guess this is the "insect" poison class in general. Why a frog? Maybe it swallowed too many insects including their poison components. The same logic applies to birds I assume. :-)
Brog
PS. Magelo (in time) is a good resource for tracking down what drops components.
Niiteman
04-10-09, 04:20 AM
where can i find the level 70-80 required recipes at. can someone help with this please thanks
Just made these.
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of Ssraeshza XV.
Trivial (496)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of Ssraeshza VIII
Single Shot: 12.4k DD then dissipates.
Max Crit 28,599 dmg
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Celestial Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Choresine Sample
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rogue Only Poison:
Strike of the Shissar XV
Trivial (492)
Req Lvl: 85
Effect: Strike of the Shissar VIII
3067 base dmg DD, 7054 dmg max crit with Empowered Ingenuity 3
Looks as though its half the damage of the Consigned Bite of the Shissar XV but around twice the proc rate.
Recipe:
1x Chronal Infused Sealed Poison Vial
1x Ethereal Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Purified Grade AA Taipan Venom
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All/All Poison
Spider's Bite VI
Trivial (160)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike III
Damage: 1622
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Nigriventer Venom
Spider's Bite IX
Trivial: (244)
Req Lvl: 55
Effect: Spider's Bite Poison Strike V
Damage:1962
Recipe:
1x Refined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Concentrated Grade A Nigriventer Venom
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All/All Poison
Scorpion's Agony VI
Trivial (170)
Req Lvl: 40
Effect: Scorpion's Agony Poison Strike III
Dmg: 1112
Recipe:
1x Unrefined Poison Vial
1x Thick Suspension Fluid
1x Emulsifier
1x Grade A Gormar Venom
Qutsmnie
04-10-09, 05:22 AM
Any chance you would consider making all rogue mobs have a 5 to 10% chance to drop a component. Some hunting areas dont seem to have anything but the worst chance.
Eleena Transient
04-10-09, 05:58 AM
Choresine is a beetle, but I guess this is the "insect" poison class in general. Why a frog? Maybe it swallowed too many insects including their poison components. The same logic applies to birds I assume. :-)
Yup, the lore on choresine is "Natural poison, perhaps from a beetle eaten by frogs n birds". Though, since they are storebought all the way up, its a worthless drop.
Ililith
04-10-09, 08:16 AM
Ngreth:
Could we add an indication of what the poison actually does to the description of our bottles? A bit like on the alchemy potions.
When you inspect a poison it only say applies poisons soandso but not what kind of poison it is, at least to the all/all poisons.
Many guildmates get confused and they are shy upon using or keep asking.
Thanks
Ngreth Thergn
04-10-09, 09:23 AM
Been having problems trying to set up a buyer for these new items. When I run a simple search on "Pristine" or "Muscimol" nothing poison related is coming up in buyer window.
For now I've been going through items in /baz, on my server we have people trying to sell single ingredients for 10-50k (which is fine, but the same prices will be passed on from my trader)... Would be nicer to set up the buyer though, and obviously cheaper.
The buyer thing is *still* bugged and it often takes the zone coming down for it to update :/
Thanks for the straight answers Ngreth :) Like that.
As a suggestion - and if it would be too difficult I understand, but it might make sense both from a game play aspect AND a roleplay/lore aspect if the Toxicity line DID affect these poisons. You know "I'm gonna give you this poison and I'm gonna teach you how to use it better" kinda thing. May also help with the aggro management if I give the tank the poison, and boost his damage with it a bit ... .
Still love it, having fun with it :) SOOO many new toys to play with and so little time.
It may be something for the future, but for now, we want to leave it as is. The intent of that line is to increase the effectiveness of poison SPELLS not poisons... odd as it may seem.
Would it be possible for the poison buff to not fade upon death like the vet xp AA doesn't fade upon death? My dagger should still have poison on it even though I was struck down by a moss snake.
I can ask.
Ngreth -- sincere thanks for your think-through on this system. Its pretty amazing really and changes a lot of things.
It basically adds a full new avenue for DPS for rogues.
I'm a little interested on how dev in general has seemed "afraid" of backstab and downright terrified of assassinate.
Instead of increasing backstab damage as we level, we tend to get just "more backstabs" (i.e. triple). Plenty of other classes have skills that are, in effect, backstab. They do plenty of damage on an interval timer. This is pretty clear given how often monks and zerks and other melee can outdamage rogues. Clearly, backstab is no longer a unique concept at all.
I group with a 76 wizzie (I'm a 76 rogue) and he has maxed out his crits. Seeing him crit for 20k is very very common which makes me wonder about the fear of backstab (and assassinate).
In any case - this is all just idle thinking. These poisons rock and provide a wonderful rogue-specific boost.
thanks!
Percentage effects are scarry... and in the end Backstab is a percentage effect.
One more question... Ngreth wrote somewhere how proc'ing worked and something about the code "checks if you proc, then it randoms which proc goes off".
Does this mean having Envenomed Blades up with a new poison means that I'm proc'ing EB sometimes instead of the new poison ? (i.e. the new poison is much better obviously).
Lets say I wanted to maximize DPS - would having just "one" new poison on be the best? Even no assist poison or old-poison or EB, etc? Seems not right so I probably misunderstood.
yeah, in the end, it is not likley that you get to 100% chance to proc every swing. That means that the chance for any particular proc is not affected by other procs. It is only when you get to 100% chance to proc that you start to see an effect.
The only time that will take effect here is the emporer poison... it has a HUGE proc rate 99.999999999999999999% chance that it will proc, so other procs push the total past 100% and therefore there is a very small chance that when you proc, you do not proc the 1 shot poison. But the chances are very small.
Anyone else experienced an issue with Messenger's Bane IV, in which the "snared" mob runs away at SoW+ speeds?
Cause I just did~
I may have implimented it backwards and it is sowing the mob :)
Expanding on this
Muscimol - Jolt - Fungus
Oleander - Slow - Plant
Larkspur - Snare - Plant
Caladium - Clumsy - Plant
Laburnum - Slow + Clumsy - Plant
Privit - Accuracy - Plant
Delphinium - Evasion - Plant
Nigriventor - all dps - Spider
Gormar - all hate - Scorpion
Mamba - rogue dps - snake (store bought)
Taipan - rogue dps (fast) - snake (store bought)
Choresine - rogue big dd - insect / frog / bird (store bought)
So, if we want the best utility poisons we need to farm level 85 plants (or fungus for jolt), so I guess stuff in RCC. Spiders and Scorpions drop the parts for stuff we'd sell, so I guess Korascian Warrens spiders for dps, nothing that high for hate (sorry tanks). Snakes are worthless since we get all those on the vendor.
Hunting humanoids is going to be nearly impossible since only rogues drop at any frequency (7 in 10000 is nonexistant) and rogues are rarish. For max level stuff, that means you are restricted to only some kyvs in Bloodfield, CoD, and precipice of war. All the kyv in Korafax are warriors. Some of the toskirakk ogres are too, a Rallosian slayer are random spawns and a Shivstalker thief are found on south side of zone (maybe a dozen of them).
I'd like to see the snake drops removed from humans if possible since they are storebought anyway.
I could remove the snake drops from humans.
First of all thank you Ngreth for the replies and all the hard work.
Some more feedback / thoughts:
As rasper pointed out some components are just going to be extreme hard to get such as lvl 85 Gomar. I have yet to find some.
I understand that the drop rate is better than the old poison system (although it does not hold true for all... it was fairly easy to get supplies for Spine rend and shissar) but I do not believe it should be as low.
So to make a utility poison we have 2 chances of skill up but also 2 combines to succeed in order to actually craft 1 poison. To that add that those utility poisons are used much faster than DPS ones since they proc more. I fail to see the logic, unless getting high lvl utility poisons is going to be rare and we will not want to use them most of the time saving them only for a very special occasion.If it is a question of skilling why then not move the "wash" part to the DPS poisons? Besides so far to max out poisons we can still use the old poisons supplies not being rare at all.
It is fairly easy to craft powersources, or potions and they do not require hardcore farming.
Strike of Ssraeshza XV: this really confuses me and I do not know what to think of it. 2 sec cast time for a 12k DD or 24+k crit .... are we turning into casters? I could probably chain it till I got owned and make some casters upset. It is an instant taunt for sure but besides that only thing I see is other classes especially casters going WTF and getting upset / frustraded. As for me I do not see any use into it and yes it made me laugh to try it once but that is it. I would rather have backstabs like that, melee type of crits :) Maybe I will keep a few for snap aggro in desperate group situation but I can taunt pretty fast already with the Shissar one that I can't see a situation where it would make a difference.
There are some plans to alter the Ssraeshza poison.
Could you hint at what the planned changes for Strike of Ssraeshza are? Honestly I don't think we have enough testing in on it and I think as a situational poison that right now it is really extremely useful in certain situations. I think of this one as more of a "Raid" poison then a groupers poison since it generates just far too much hate for a grouper to handle, but not true for a raider.
For example beyond the "I wanna gank aggro fun factor" which wears off pretty quickly. I find that for raiding it makes a fantastic opener in lieu of daggerlunging every mob and saves me a ton of end and extends my viability on trash clears. I Use it to open then quickly click Bite of the Shissar to boost sustained dps. Right at this point now that I am starting to really get a firm grasp on the possibilities of this poison, I would really hate to see it changed before others have the chance to really see what they can do with this.
Catweazel
04-10-09, 09:39 AM
where can i find the level 70-80 required recipes at. can someone help with this please thanks
You can figure them out....
Level 70 vial (Embossed)
Level 70 ingredient (refined AA)
suspension (depends on the ingredient)
emulsifier
Ngreth Thergn
04-10-09, 10:11 AM
Any chance you would consider making all rogue mobs have a 5 to 10% chance to drop a component. Some hunting areas dont seem to have anything but the worst chance.
I will definitely consider it.
Yup, the lore on choresine is "Natural poison, perhaps from a beetle eaten by frogs n birds". Though, since they are storebought all the way up, its a worthless drop.
Those are mostly there to offer a "free" route for people that make them. It is entirely "player option" there. The same holds true for the snake stuff.
Ngreth:
Could we add an indication of what the poison actually does to the description of our bottles? A bit like on the alchemy potions.
When you inspect a poison it only say applies poisons soandso but not what kind of poison it is, at least to the all/all poisons.
Many guildmates get confused and they are shy upon using or keep asking.
Thanks
I am open to suggestions.
I can come up with my own, but if you have suggestions you would like I am happy to look at them as well.
Qutsmnie
04-10-09, 10:48 AM
I noted the lack of descriptions myself. Heres the deal theres no description on the +hate poison that says its DD + hate or even tips it off. I thought some people arn't going to get on board with just names alone.
It would be nice if in some hand wavey manner the poisons indicated generates unusual anger or something.
I noted the lack of descriptions myself. Heres the deal theres no description on the +hate poison that says its DD + hate or even tips it off. I thought some people arn't going to get on board with just names alone.
It would be nice if in some hand wavey manner the poisons indicated generates unusual anger or something.
I have this vision of an icon showing a hand with the middle finger extended...
Ngreth,
I have an additional suggestion in addition to my question above. While the Drop rate of ingredients is higher then the old stuff, the problem is the double hit we take with the extremely high trivial on sub-combines. So right now we have a greater then 50% chance to fail sub combines with max trophy/AA and then another greater then 50% chance to fail the final combine. In our old system sub combines were low trivials, this is the one change I am not sure I agree with. Would you consider making the Sub-combines a No Fail combine, with the current trivial so you still must have a minimum poison skill to attempt. This I don't believe would flood the market by still requiring a minimum skill and we still maintain a fairly high fail rate on the Poison's themselves. Right now as it currently is with the extremely high fail rates on both combines, that translates into almost no high level utility poisons even being made.
Ililith
04-10-09, 11:59 AM
About the descriptions:
Shaman potions give the actual effect on the description aka heals between so much and so much. This system can be used for the poisons, would be an easy fix.
We can be more creative and just give a hint / brief description. A few ideas:
Scorpion's agony line: cloaks your blades with name & rank of poison infuriating your foes.
Spider's bite line: cloaks your blades with name & rank of poison inflicting pain to your foes / hurting your foes.
Not sure for the rogue only poisons (I still get myself confused and have to look them up) but I'm sure we can come up with more "creative" ideas.
About the Bazaar suggestions:
Since all the components are marked rogue class, can it be considered to have a filter to ROG only (or any other class for that matter). As it is filter combinable + filter rogue will bring up all items that can be combined being all/all or ROG wich usually yield more than 200 results. I don't know how feasible it would be but maybe a check box to exclude all other than what selected.
I doubt it would be an easy fix / change but maybe it could be added to the list of suggestions for the bazaar changes to come (I'm thinking offline trader... wich is a long term perspective but a perspective last I checked).
Would there be any way to add a proc counter on the poison buff icon, so we could see how many procs are left out of the 60?
Hunting around for the best place to find a highish level drop for Gormar, I found that scorpions in Jewel of Atiiki are 71-73. Packed up my merc and headed over there.....after an hour of clearing everything I could see, I'd managed to kill about 5 scorpions, and gotten one drop of Gormar venom (the level 70 version).
I'd love to be able to make some aggro potions for the tanks, but I honestly can't see spending 20 hours in a zone farming components to make (after fails) maybe 7 potions. Anyone have any better ideas of hunting grounds for this stuff?
Catweazel
04-10-09, 02:48 PM
Hunting around for the best place to find a highish level drop for Gormar, I found that scorpions in Jewel of Atiiki are 71-73. Packed up my merc and headed over there.....after an hour of clearing everything I could see, I'd managed to kill about 5 scorpions, and gotten one drop of Gormar venom (the level 70 version).
I'd love to be able to make some aggro potions for the tanks, but I honestly can't see spending 20 hours in a zone farming components to make (after fails) maybe 7 potions. Anyone have any better ideas of hunting grounds for this stuff?
Make easier ones?
OT was always "the" place for scorpions.
I am wondering whether you guys really understand the control SOE exerts over drops ever since they made the code for global drops and they fixed the camping issue when they launched LON booster packs.
They can measure how many drops come into the world and control this entry extremely tightly.
The issue is about power not whether there are any level 90 scorpions anywhere, or too few rogue humanoid models. The question should be "does SOE/Devs want rogues to have level 60 power poisons or level 85 power poisons"? The answer is pretty obvious at the moment - rogues can have all the level 85 bite of the shissar they want and all the level 40 utility they want. They will wait and see on the rest and it will be a long wait.
Save the frustration and grab the ones you can get easily if you don't like farming, or expect a lot of frustration if you seriously want to camp goblin slayers in Korascian.
Yes, I'm well aware that I can make the level 40 versions till my eyes bleed, and they will still be somewhat useful. My question was an indirect attempt to attaract some Dev attention to the fact that there are NO scorpions in the world higher than about level 73 (barring some instanced zones that are not viable farming targets). Since Ngreth has been wonderful about tracking and posting on this thread, I'd hoped that mebbe he'd see my post and either move the higher level drops for the aggro potions onto mobs that..err....actually exist....or prehaps think about other options for these drops.
EDIT
Yes, I know there are scorpions in the new FoS that are 80 ish, but there are only about 4 or 5 of them. Not viable for farming, in my opinion.
Thurgle
04-10-09, 06:45 PM
There are some plans to alter the Ssraeshza poison.
Maybe the cast time or recast timer should be 15 seconds and it should proc for 25k base (about Daggerlunge-ish without the endurance cost, like tivia said)
I really hope you do not change the poison's im very happy with how they are now, after being flat out disgraced by wizzard dps for the last few months im glad we can finaly beat them on a parse, after i burn my discs if im way behind i can start clicking the single hit poison to stay up with the 20k plus dps the wizards are dishing out. Now from actual raid experince in discord tower even spammign the single hit till i get agro does not put me far ahead of the other dps classes but it does infact allow me to jump in front if i get LUCKY on agro and procs, this is not what happenes every time i have tried this i have lost dps and my position on the parse when i didnt get good procs to me this is tuned perfectly. This is honestly what we have needed every since twincast was released, the penalty is that if you do it to much you get agro and die, I think its tuned good as it is now. If you think that 30k damage is a lot try a wizard that can land 100k + nukes while twincasting.
Ililith
04-12-09, 03:35 AM
I really hope you do not change the poison's im very happy with how they are now, after being flat out disgraced by wizzard dps for the last few months im glad we can finaly beat them on a parse, after i burn my discs if im way behind i can start clicking the single hit poison to stay up with the 20k plus dps the wizards are dishing out. Now from actual raid experince in discord tower even spammign the single hit till i get agro does not put me far ahead of the other dps classes but it does infact allow me to jump in front if i get LUCKY on agro and procs, this is not what happenes every time i have tried this i have lost dps and my position on the parse when i didnt get good procs to me this is tuned perfectly. This is honestly what we have needed every since twincast was released, the penalty is that if you do it to much you get agro and die, I think its tuned good as it is now. If you think that 30k damage is a lot try a wizard that can land 100k + nukes while twincasting.
I disagree. I am not playing a rogue to have a 2 sec cast DD for up to 24k. I mean really this is not what I am expecting from a rogue and it is exactly what I am hearing and seeing happen around. Yeah casters get annoyed to see us spell crit for as much, sure it helps our sustained dps but it is not how I wish to see us boosted.
It was said before poisons should not be the answer to our balance / sustained issues. I find sad I crit for 24k more often with the poison for zero E cost than using Daggerlunge rank 3. I would rather see us backstab that way more often than have to resolve using the Strike poison.
I am aware that fixing our class will not be done soon, in fact I suspect we will just have to sit back patiently (like other classes have before us) and wait the next expansion and AAs. What I want to see worked on is our backstab being boosted when no disc running, I would like our opener to be able to crit for more and be more in line with casters crits, I would also want to see evade being updated to current content as we do generate way more hate than a rogue in EQ classic, maybe some deaggro procs again on our main dagger, maybe change / add the evade to an AA so that we do not have to turn atk off + hide + atk like it has been suggested in another thread. There are plenty of other interesting ideas to bring us back to where we belong. I am also frustrated to see the parses and I hope to see us undisputed #1 melee or zerkers #1 when they have their full burn. Content has been less rogue friendly / less melee friendly (positions, knockbacks etc) with close to no upgrade in this expansion (1 serious dagger upgrade with a way too low drop rate that isn't even rogue only flagged).
I do enjoy the poisons I just believe they still need tuning and the Ssraehza one is not something I want for us in it's current state.
Currently the poisons are great for the group rogue dps and it is needed.
brogett
04-12-09, 03:50 AM
I disagree. I am not playing a rogue to have a 2 sec cast DD for up to 24k. I mean really this is not what I am expecting from a rogue and it is exactly what I am hearing and seeing happen around. Yeah casters get annoyed to see us spell crit for as much, sure it helps our sustained dps but it is not how I wish to see us boosted.
It was said before poisons should not be the answer to our balance / sustained issues. I find sad I crit for 24k more often with the poison for zero E cost than using Daggerlunge rank 3. I would rather see us backstab that way more often than have to resolve using the Strike poison.
I totally agree.
The Strike of Ssraeshza though does have huge agro, and further more, *SHOULD* have huge agro. Spam clicking it is not where we should be headed. I think it perhaps needs longer reuse time too, or maybe it needs a recourse effect added. The reason is simple - it's meant to be a one shot poison capable of doing great damage, but in a raid or even a group it's simply not meant to be there to solve our dps problems.
The way I see it is this is one of the rogue solo poisons, for when we want to be sneaky. Apply it to our weapon to get the buff, and then sneak/hide + dagger lunge attack with simultaneous poison proc to boot. It doesn't matter if it takes a bit longer to apply as it's all about 0up-front planning and skullduggery - not about spam clicking it to boost sustained dps.
Or to put it another way - it should take the roll that the old single shot DD poisons did when released.
Brog
PS. These poisons however do indicate just how bewilderingly rubbish our BP clicks have been of late. Personally I'm using the MMM BP - it has a click for an uber 41 damage per tick poison. I mean come on... kunark offered better than that!
brogett
04-12-09, 03:59 AM
One thought on the hate generation. I know there have been suggestions for improving evade and sleight of hand (both of which I'd agree with), but there are also other routes I can see.
The primary problem here is that hate from spell damage is from the base value of that spell. We don't really get many ways to do more than the base though. There's the crit chance only (or does ingenuity also apply here)? Anyway if instead of having such high base damage we instead get a lower base damage by half and AAs that boost the base (improved toxicity) by say up to 100% then we'd be getting the same final dps for half the agro rate we do now. It also gives us a sensible AA to work on rather than the myriad of "fillers" that we all know are just there to keep the AA count looking high.
Or perhaps this can be a way in future expansions to improve the value of poisons without having to keep adding new recipies; instead we simply learn through AAs how to get that extra little punch out of our existing damage ones.
The alternative is to for poison focii to work on us, but I think this would cause many problems with EQ loot distribution and is likely to be more pain in the long run. I'd rather not go down that route.
While I don't see much reason to change Strike of Ssra at this time, I am going to point out that it does NOT give us a 7k dps boost in a raid situation even spamming it. On full spam It only sustained slightly higher then I could without it and with a massive amount more hate for my efforts.
silenceisgolden
04-12-09, 08:07 AM
Would there be any way to add a proc counter on the poison buff icon, so we could see how many procs are left out of the 60?
I was actually goign to suggest this as well but i dont knwo if the icons ( size of) or coding will allow it.
Ililith
04-12-09, 08:08 AM
No it does not give a 7k dps boost but there have been reports and people explaining how excited they are to be able to boost the sustained by chain clicking it.
There is some content where kill fast is important, or win a parse so some of us have been using it because there just is no other way to be up there (like some specific encounter or the rogues that raid lower content and just suffer even more from the dps gap).
After a full burn of your discs when there is still a decent amount of hp on the mob some would indeed chain cast it to boost their sustained. Of course use every tool available to be better, but I do not like that route and I refrain from following the example because I am worried it will only get everyone else to say "see rogues are fine their sustained does not need to get any better". To me it is not an exploit but certainly not the intended purpose either. As for aggro I tested it in group situation with a SK tanking chain casting Ssraehza never pulled aggro, using Shissar I would unless I used the Trauma line along with it.
I am just giving my insight and I think it is also agreed by our devs that the poisons are not to be the answer to our acknowledged DPS issues. They can be a nice patch in the meantime, I like a lot of it but I do not want it to be overpowered when it adds to our upcoming tweaks, also I do not want to be turned into a caster (mana / endurance free one for a small platinum cost).
I want to melee and dig my daggers deep into mobs and not pull out a bottle of poison coat my blades every few seconds :evil
if you don't like it dont use it
Ililith
04-12-09, 08:47 AM
I do not like that route and I refrain from following the example because I am worried it will only get everyone else to say "see rogues are fine their sustained does not need to get any better".
I test the new things to know what I talk about, I do not use it but would if I had to in order to achieve the goals of a raid. I do not have to like it either, I can though discuss and give feedback.
It is not my intention to upset you or anyone.
It has already been said it will be changed but no information as of how.
If you believe it is working as intended...
brogett
04-12-09, 08:48 AM
if you don't like it dont use it
That's not the point. The fact it exists means others will take it into account and bring it up against us, time and time again. I'm sure the devs realise the truth about these poisons, but I for one would rather not take the risk of some idiot monk or berserker trying to persuade them otherwise in order to try and gain an edge over us.
I'd go as far to say even that it would be best to make it unable to be applied during combat, or simply make the apply time 10 seconds instead of 2 (meaning chain spamming would be less dps than group gear weaponry).
Qutsmnie
04-12-09, 09:05 AM
Yeah Brogett that was exactly my point on the other thread in which Stalk concluded the drop rate should be upped. I don't conclude the drop rate should be upped in some dramatic way. But Catweazel was staking out the position that rogues that didn't farm should be treated as inferior (the language he used definately described an inferior player). That lays the ground work to simply being dismissive about the difficultly of getting components. Its true that a rogue using X or greater of all poisons constantly would be a force, but that shouldn't be used as the yardstick when most rogues and myself arn't going to be that rogue because of a prohibitive time investment.
I have no problem opting out of using an hour a week to farm components. But when the rogue imagined when forming balancing is not only the rogue that uses one hour a week but in reality several (for imagining a stack full of each). Then thats troubling. And the truth is that only works if you are being miserly with them. You pop them off at a pretty good rate when you get into it.
But I don't want more drop rate. I just want not to be balanced against the idea that I got bags full of X+ at my disposal when ever I want.
I agree that I as well do not want the poison being used against us for Balance purposes, though we all know it will be factored in.
We have less then a week of using it in place, I don't think that period of time is anywhere near enough to justify calling for the nerf of one poison because of the perceived method of use. We only have a few scattered parses and none of them are reflecting the same yet. At this time I have seen only a couple of cases where spamming Strike was better then using it as an opener and then switching to Bite. On the same token In most events I am finding bite offers better sustained dps then spamming strike simply because spamming strike on mobs that move alot and trying to maintain position is quite a bit of hassle.
Reasons Why I would support a recast increase on strike;
1) Because i view it as an opener and better used in that manner.
Reasons why I wouldn't;
1) Because there are times when I Want to yank aggro on purpose and This is a Situational Tool that lets me do so. Increasing the recast on this yanks what could be a valuable hate management tool out of our hands again.
2) Because we don't have enough parse data in a week to justify changing it.
3) Because changing it with extremely limited data is a knee jerk reaction and that kind of thinking got us where we are in sod in the first place.
Right now the reasons why I wouldn't change it, far outweigh the reasons too.
I totaly agree with Tivia, there has not been enough time just chill and leave it be lets see how it goes.
i tested strike sssra on warrens mobs 4 click = 3 resist , and i took aggro each time the spell lands on the mob (resist or not).
Its not overpowered, but as many said i dont think it is our role to chain cast a DD.
Catweazel
04-12-09, 03:47 PM
I for one do not know that it will be "factored in".
In fact - I would call BS (without insult) and say that there is more imagining going on than anything else. There are also limited parses (none?), exaggeration, RNG effects and other typical hoopla associated with a change that people believe inherently is "too good" or "too bad" and expect a nerf or demand a fix.
Global drop rates require a server pop (I think) in order to make a change to drop rates, but there is a significant amount of information missing before asking for that. Even if Gormar and Muscimol drop rates were increased to 90%, no-one yet knows what steady parsing will show for tanks using version XIV and rogues using the highest DPS and trying to offset hate with XIV Quellios and all the lower versions. The random nature of procs make this parse information extremely challenging - probably impossible. Finally, even with drop rates increased to 90% no-one can tell yet how many of these components would make it into the hands of rogues that give a damn. I would go as far as to say that we are stuck with what we have. If 6 months of parsing wizards did not produce enough data to make any changes....well.
What is really easy to do today is to make 100's of Scorpion VI, Quellios VI and play with different levels of Shissar and forget all about drop rates. After a couple of months of grouping and raiding with the stock supplies and zero farming we might actually have data. I would hardly call these rogues "inferior" who plan on doing this.
I only really have one small problem with poisons. I would like to see a Dilutant added (along with 100 new recipes) so that any strength of poison from level 85 down to level 50 could be downgraded. The number of singles and doubles I am carrying is insane. I am sure this will get better over time, but I would really prefer to have 20 XI's than 9XI's, 5XII's, 4 XIII's and 2 XIV's which is the way its headed at the moment.
Kudladar
04-12-09, 04:31 PM
Is there any way using the vendor bought stuff to go above 170? I am stuck here and do not want to spend the time running all over the place farming stuff.
I for one do not know that it will be "factored in".
Ngreth Stated as much..did you forget about me blowing up over it a while back? I hate that fact more then anyone, but that doesn't change what it is.
Is there any way using the vendor bought stuff to go above 170? I am stuck here and do not want to spend the time running all over the place farming stuff.
Not with the NEW poisons. I dont know which of the old recipies they are leaving in or taking out. But unless they plan a complete remake of the Trophy Tests, you can be sure that at least the recipies used there will remain in game.
Is there any way using the vendor bought stuff to go above 170? I am stuck here and do not want to spend the time running all over the place farming stuff.
Sloth is done vendor only.
Qutsmnie
04-13-09, 07:46 AM
SK in my guild said he was getting evocation skill-ups from Spider Bite VI. If its enough of a casting event to get skill-ups I get nervous that it might be resetting combat rounds on procs (it happened before with proc buffs!)
Ngreth Thergn
04-13-09, 09:25 AM
Not with the NEW poisons. I dont know which of the old recipies they are leaving in or taking out. But unless they plan a complete remake of the Trophy Tests, you can be sure that at least the recipies used there will remain in game.
I adjusted trivial of the few I found that were vendor only, but left them in.
Ngreth Thergn
04-13-09, 09:28 AM
I for one do not know that it will be "factored in".
.
The basic poison will be considered.
Not as sure as much with the Ssraehza poison. It depends on possible changes for it.
Qutsmnie
04-13-09, 09:41 AM
I think anything made with vendor combines can safely be factored into balance (or neccesarily must be factored in) as if we could cast the proc buff at its full face value strength. There is the argument I posed before these were implemented that there is no fairness in making rogues do a combine and then counting it exactly as a spell because one requires more effort than another.
The reason I am tossing that out is because we are hand-waiving over the dropped poisons and not counting those and that is where the balance comes in for having to do combines. Yes you have to inventory management, yes you have to do combines, but you are only getting balanced around a XV DD proc, VI slow proc, a VI strength snare proc, a VI agro reduction, and the rest if you can get them "are balancing out having to do inventory managment versus cast spells."
So factor the vendor stuff in at face value as if we could cast the proc buff with no consideration of inventory management and plat, if it will fairly counter-balance being able to do more with drops.
Catweazel
04-13-09, 10:36 AM
The basic poison will be considered.
Not as sure as much with the Ssraehza poison. It depends on possible changes for it.
Well, logically, for balance, the vendor available tank hate poison plus the vendor available Quellios calm poison should be considered as the balance point. I think this is what Quts was saying. This would mean our balance point for dropping hate using:
Sleight of Hand + Evade + Quellios VI + Scorpion VI >= Shissar XV
That would then allow those rogues that want to have an edge to do so through farming or bazaar hunting.
Well, logically, for balance, the vendor available tank hate poison plus the vendor available Quellios calm poison should be considered as the balance point. I think this is what Quts was saying. This would mean our balance point for dropping hate using:
Sleight of Hand + Evade + Quellios VI + Scorpion VI >= Shissar XV
That would then allow those rogues that want to have an edge to do so through farming or bazaar hunting.
sorry but sleight of hand is not permanent, it last 4min (with max duration AA) , with 10min refresh, imo it should not be taken into account for our sustained aggro management.
Eleena Transient
04-14-09, 12:51 PM
I'd like to see the slows moved to a different slot than shaman slow. If I'm using Warlord Bane (slow + atk debuff), it will bounce off a slowed mob, but still cost me a proc.
Catweazel
04-14-09, 04:18 PM
I'd like to see the slows moved to a different slot than shaman slow. If I'm using Warlord Bane (slow + atk debuff), it will bounce off a slowed mob, but still cost me a proc.
Wouldn't the highest level slow be the one sticking?
If you are grouping with a shaman you could just use the clumsy debuff (Fighter's Bane)?
I have a curious question, thought id try it here before starting a new thread.
Does anyone know if you get APPLY skill ups with the new poisons? I'm attempting to find out where the best Apply skill path might be. I havnt gone thru a lot of testing yet, but on a new rogue im testing with , at 1/300 apply, using a stack of 20 Bite of the Shissar II, i got 0 skill ups. Wondering if anyone has been seeing any apply skill ups from other poisons. Asuming all of you havnt allready maxxed your Apply.
If the new poison Does NOT give Apply skill, what would be the best path for this?
Sindier
04-15-09, 02:40 AM
It is variable... but...
take the "unknown calc" number, and see where it says 20XX (where XX is two more digits) that XX is the level multiplier. the level on a poison is set, and does not match your level. In the end this is the same "hate" as the Strike of Shissar base poison, but it procs at twice the rate, meaning it will remove more hate (about 2X, though not exactly that) than is added by the DPS poison because of the accelerated rate. (82*72 = 5904 for the XV poison)
*NOTE* When I reduce the hate generated by the DPS poisons I will need to reduce the effectiveness of this as well.
Thanks a ton for this info! I'm just curious though, where were the multipliers 82 and 72 pulled from? I'm just trying to make sense of why they were used in the given example.
Has anyone discovered the use for the new 'Inert Poison Grain' yet? lore says "Valuable resource for Rogue Guilds" and its the only thing we dont know what to do with yet. Im wondering if it is used in some fashion to 'dilute' a dropped ingrediant. Perhaps like dye Extracts are, you have the basic ' Black Extract' and when you combine it in the jar with varying amounts of Resin it becomes Light grey, grey, dark grey, etc? Just a thought rolling around my head. Niether Lucy,Alla or TC have anything on it yet.
It is marked with a [ QUEST ] tag and Im Very curious what it is for.
shmoozneak
04-15-09, 03:27 AM
I have a curious question, thought id try it here before starting a new thread.
Does anyone know if you get APPLY skill ups with the new poisons? I'm attempting to find out where the best Apply skill path might be. I havnt gone thru a lot of testing yet, but on a new rogue im testing with , at 1/300 apply, using a stack of 20 Bite of the Shissar II, i got 0 skill ups. Wondering if anyone has been seeing any apply skill ups from other poisons. Asuming all of you havnt allready maxxed your Apply.
If the new poison Does NOT give Apply skill, what would be the best path for this?
I get the feeling that the apply poison skill is not used with these poisons. It wasn't used with the POP and OOW era poisons and these are more similar to those in operation than they are to the original game and Kunark era poisons.
Has anyone discovered the use for the new 'Inert Poison Grain' yet? lore says "Valuable resource for Rogue Guilds" and its the only thing we dont know what to do with yet. Im wondering if it is used in some fashion to 'dilute' a dropped ingrediant. Perhaps like dye Extracts are, you have the basic ' Black Extract' and when you combine it in the jar with varying amounts of Resin it becomes Light grey, grey, dark grey, etc? Just a thought rolling around my head. Niether Lucy,Alla or TC have anything on it yet.
It is marked with a [ QUEST ] tag and Im Very curious what it is for.
Vendor items to recover plat according to Ngreth.
silenceisgolden
04-15-09, 09:31 AM
I get the feeling that the apply poison skill is not used with these poisons. It wasn't used with the POP and OOW era poisons and these are more similar to those in operation than they are to the original game and Kunark era poisons.
think your right. the apply poison skill has been completely negated and is unnessecary at this point. if your ocd'ish and want to max it anyhow then youll haev to make the older type poisons and use those.
Ngreth Thergn
04-15-09, 09:41 AM
I'd like to see the slows moved to a different slot than shaman slow. If I'm using Warlord Bane (slow + atk debuff), it will bounce off a slowed mob, but still cost me a proc.
Nope.
You need to choose your poisons according to the group makeup.
If you have a shaman/chanter don't use anything with slow
If with a druid, don't use anything with attack.
that is why there are 3 poisons that do essentially the same thing.
These effects stack, and the point is *not* to make these effects even more effective when you have the appropriate classes with you, but to give you an option when those classes are *not* with you.
Ngreth Thergn
04-15-09, 09:41 AM
I have a curious question, thought id try it here before starting a new thread.
Does anyone know if you get APPLY skill ups with the new poisons? I'm attempting to find out where the best Apply skill path might be. I havnt gone thru a lot of testing yet, but on a new rogue im testing with , at 1/300 apply, using a stack of 20 Bite of the Shissar II, i got 0 skill ups. Wondering if anyone has been seeing any apply skill ups from other poisons. Asuming all of you havnt allready maxxed your Apply.
If the new poison Does NOT give Apply skill, what would be the best path for this?
Nope. These totally ignore the apply skill.
Ngreth Thergn
04-15-09, 09:43 AM
Thanks a ton for this info! I'm just curious though, where were the multipliers 82 and 72 pulled from? I'm just trying to make sense of why they were used in the given example.
82 is the level set on the item for the casting level (I think some item collectors get this info)
72 is from the spell... where you see "unknown calculation" in the parser and it says 2072 drop the 2000 and you get the per level multiplier.
Ngreth Thergn
04-15-09, 09:45 AM
Has anyone discovered the use for the new 'Inert Poison Grain' yet? lore says "Valuable resource for Rogue Guilds" and its the only thing we dont know what to do with yet. Im wondering if it is used in some fashion to 'dilute' a dropped ingrediant. Perhaps like dye Extracts are, you have the basic ' Black Extract' and when you combine it in the jar with varying amounts of Resin it becomes Light grey, grey, dark grey, etc? Just a thought rolling around my head. Niether Lucy,Alla or TC have anything on it yet.
It is marked with a [ QUEST ] tag and Im Very curious what it is for.
Just cash. I use it to even the pricing out properly and give you guys less components to have to deal with.
the quest tag is a leftover. oops!
Ngreth, I know it's been stated many times, but I think it bears repeating. Thank you again for being so involved in the forums, answering our questions and listening to our concerns. It is such a breath of fresh air.
Oh, and really loving the new poisons.
silenceisgolden
04-16-09, 04:06 AM
why why why do poisons not work on the Brexxt fight in tower? when you are in his silence aura I keep gettign i cant cast spells becuase im silenced.... poison isn't a spell.... as a matter of fact it even blocks some other skills ( have to verify this) but I beilive its blocking rogues fury and EB iirc. I wont have a chance to verify until sunday.
why why why do poisons not work on the Brexxt fight in tower? when you are in his silence aura I keep gettign i cant cast spells becuase im silenced.... poison isn't a spell.... as a matter of fact it even blocks some other skills ( have to verify this) but I beilive its blocking rogues fury and EB iirc. I wont have a chance to verify until sunday.
I have always wondered why poisons were blocked when silenced when in fact they are not spells.
why why why do poisons not work on the Brexxt fight in tower? when you are in his silence aura I keep gettign i cant cast spells becuase im silenced.... poison isn't a spell.... as a matter of fact it even blocks some other skills ( have to verify this) but I beilive its blocking rogues fury and EB iirc. I wont have a chance to verify until sunday.
Silence Aura currently blocks the following;
All new poisons
Envenomed Blades
BP Clicks
Rogues Fury
I think it blocks TE as well, not 100% on that as I don't usually pay much attention to TE.
silenceisgolden
04-16-09, 08:12 AM
Silence Aura currently blocks the following;
All new poisons
Envenomed Blades
BP Clicks
Rogues Fury
I think it blocks TE as well, not 100% on that as I don't usually pay much attention to TE.
TE works. i think it blcoks bleed. even so it should block poisons at all. thats what resist rates are for. we arent "casting a spell" everytime a poison hits. we are "physcially" inserting a poisoned blade into an opponent, which has nothing to do with spell casting.
Ngreth Thergn
04-16-09, 09:03 AM
why why why do poisons not work on the Brexxt fight in tower? when you are in his silence aura I keep gettign i cant cast spells becuase im silenced.... poison isn't a spell.... as a matter of fact it even blocks some other skills ( have to verify this) but I beilive its blocking rogues fury and EB iirc. I wont have a chance to verify until sunday.
Unfortunately... in the end... it *is* a spell :( We can wrap all the "rp" reasons we want, but as far as the EQ engine and server are concerned it is a spell.
Currently I have no way to "override" silence and make it work anyway. I will ask, but i do not expect it to be "soon." And I may get shot down.
Unfortunately... in the end... it *is* a spell :( We can wrap all the "rp" reasons we want, but as far as the EQ engine and server are concerned it is a spell.
Currently I have no way to "override" silence and make it work anyway. I will ask, but i do not expect it to be "soon." And I may get shot down.
I suspected it might be an engine limitation and fully expected this response. I was hoping that would not be the case though.
At least this way it gives us an argument that while the poison system is a breath of fresh air (Thank you again Ngreth for all your hard work, and especially for putting up with stubborn assholes like myself), that there is still much work to be done with the rogue class to get us back where we need to be.
silenceisgolden
04-17-09, 04:04 AM
Unfortunately... in the end... it *is* a spell :( We can wrap all the "rp" reasons we want, but as far as the EQ engine and server are concerned it is a spell.
Currently I have no way to "override" silence and make it work anyway. I will ask, but i do not expect it to be "soon." And I may get shot down.
OK amkes technicla sense but procs from weapons adn ( im pretty sure) procs from Spells like Lynx arent affected by silence either. ( ill verify sunday)
Ngreth Thergn
04-17-09, 09:03 AM
I suspected it might be an engine limitation and fully expected this response. I was hoping that would not be the case though.
At least this way it gives us an argument that while the poison system is a breath of fresh air (Thank you again Ngreth for all your hard work, and especially for putting up with stubborn assholes like myself), that there is still much work to be done with the rogue class to get us back where we need to be.
OK amkes technicla sense but procs from weapons adn ( im pretty sure) procs from Spells like Lynx arent affected by silence either. ( ill verify sunday)
It turns out I can make them "disciplines" instead of spells, and silence will not catch them, but "amnesia" will. This is more appropriate. They wills till work the same as far as you are concerned, but not be silenced.
It turns out I can make them "disciplines" instead of spells, and silence will not catch them, but "amnesia" will. This is more appropriate. They wills till work the same as far as you are concerned, but not be silenced.
Oh that is spectacular news!
Thank's for researching that further Ngreth, most devs would of just dropped it with your last statement and that would of been the end of it.
silenceisgolden
04-17-09, 01:48 PM
HAVNET SEEN NGRETH POST THIS HERE YET SO EHRE GOES:
I have a few changes coming to poison.
the Ssraeshza Poison will have a recast time of 10s placed on it.
The Proc Count will increase on the utility poisons allowing them to last longer
The ROGUE DPS poison will have HATE reduced. Along with this the jolt poison will be reduced in effectiveness.
*************
at a later date, when more time is available (and it has been placed on my schedule to do later, should be after the may patch)
Adjust the resist rate on poisons
Poisons will be made such that "Silence" no longer affects it, but "Amnesia" will instead
Drop rates will be increased.
*Possibly* (after consideration) Proc Count on higher end poisons will be increased to partially compensate for Virulent Venom.
*Possibly* (after consideration) hate will be reduced on the all/all base poison (not the HATE based poison)
*Possibly* (after consideration) hate on utility poisons will be lowered
Message edited by Dev-Ngreth on 04/17/2009 10:01:49.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=149995
Catweazel
04-17-09, 02:19 PM
Things just get better, thanks Ngreth...
Now if we could just get quadcast and 100/20 weapons....
HAVNET SEEN NGRETH POST THIS HERE YET SO EHRE GOES:
I have a few changes coming to poison.
the Ssraeshza Poison will have a recast time of 10s placed on it.
The Proc Count will increase on the utility poisons allowing them to last longer
The ROGUE DPS poison will have HATE reduced. Along with this the jolt poison will be reduced in effectiveness.
*************
at a later date, when more time is available (and it has been placed on my schedule to do later, should be after the may patch)
Adjust the resist rate on poisons
Poisons will be made such that "Silence" no longer affects it, but "Amnesia" will instead
Drop rates will be increased.
*Possibly* (after consideration) Proc Count on higher end poisons will be increased to partially compensate for Virulent Venom.
*Possibly* (after consideration) hate will be reduced on the all/all base poison (not the HATE based poison)
*Possibly* (after consideration) hate on utility poisons will be lowered
Message edited by Dev-Ngreth on 04/17/2009 10:01:49.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=149995
That change makes me sad. 10s eliminates what quickly became a valuable tool for us and reduced it to opener only.
The change in aggro is also pointless..why lower the aggro and the effectiveness of the jolts? Why not just leave them how they are? They are completely manageable as they stand. The rest of the changes are great.
Eleena Transient
04-17-09, 03:26 PM
That change makes me sad. 10s eliminates what quickly became a valuable tool for us and reduced it to opener only.
why so? its a 10s recast, not a 10s click time, so you can still use 4-6 of them per minute in combat (depending on if the 2s cast is in sequence or parallel to recast).
why so? its a 10s recast, not a 10s click time, so you can still use 4-6 of them per minute in combat (depending on if the 2s cast is in sequence or parallel to recast).
There are times I want to yank aggro, and I am pretty sure there are times when all rogues want to yank it on purpose. I used these as a tool to do so, sometimes it takes me several to accomplish this.
The better question is, why the change? At the top end you lose dps spamming them, at the low end aggro is completely unmanageable, I can't think of a single reason these should be changed in any manner.
Catweazel
04-17-09, 07:37 PM
There are times I want to yank aggro, and I am pretty sure there are times when all rogues want to yank it on purpose. I used these as a tool to do so, sometimes it takes me several to accomplish this.
The better question is, why the change? At the top end you lose dps spamming them, at the low end aggro is completely unmanageable, I can't think of a single reason these should be changed in any manner.
They are overpowered if you can take the hit and have concentrate maxxed, at least if the 6kDPS quoted was repeatable.
shmoozneak
04-17-09, 08:11 PM
It turns out I can make them "disciplines" instead of spells, and silence will not catch them, but "amnesia" will. This is more appropriate. They wills till work the same as far as you are concerned, but not be silenced.
Excellent, and thank you again, Ngreth.
:)
Ililith
04-18-09, 06:43 AM
It turns out I can make them "disciplines" instead of spells, and silence will not catch them, but "amnesia" will. This is more appropriate. They wills till work the same as far as you are concerned, but not be silenced.
Any chance that change could affect poisons but also rogue's fury (without getting already using a disc so it still stack with Frenzied Stab of course)?
Thanks
They are overpowered if you can take the hit and have concentrate maxxed, at least if the 6kDPS quoted was repeatable.
It isn't anywhere close to 6k dps in a live environment. If it was then the few fights I toyed around with spamming it on should of yielded a significant difference in the parse. However when the parse was finished for the fight I was around 800dps higher then my usual average. Resist's, lost backstabs playing the largest role and of course lost melee swings for cast time.
Again it is fun to spam a couple of times, but it is far from practical. It makes a great opener and a great tool for "situational" purposes.
That all said, it isn't our job to be concerned with yanking aggro so obviously I won't fight the change. I just wish Ngreth had waited a little longer and listened to more feedback before pulling the trigger on that change. I believe that had rogues been given more time past the "Oh wow the hate from teh spam!!" then quite a few would of started realizing the potential for this poison in its current form.
Suggestion Time.
Ngreth
If we are getting a 10s recast can the 2 second cast time be removed from this and the bite of the Shissar line please? When doing trash clears and in some experience groups being able to switch back and forth is a really big deal. The cast time becomes really irrelevant and more of a nusance with the recast timer added in.
OK I have been away for a few days and have had some time to think about all of this..
First let me say THANK YOU Negreth and all those who have worked to make a difference to the rogue class.. it's been a long time coming..
now on to what might become a wet blanket..
Stop a minute and think about how poison really works. ( not what you see in the movies).
poisons do not kill you in 30 seconds.. no matter if it is a spider, snake, or the bottle of cleaner under the sink.. They take time and the symptoms get more instence as time passes. If there was a way to make it so that the amount of damage taken was to encreace the longer the mob lives that might help with the agro problem. not sure if that would be easy to implement.
the idea of the recast time of the single use DD poisons. I think that 10 seconds is not long enough. think about it. if you get into a fight how long does it take to pull out a vial and dip you knife into it.?? AND do it with out poisoning yourself?? are we in essence calling a time out while we do it? these poison should be a one use per fight type poison. it only makes sence.
as for the ALL/ALL poisons.. there are 2 classes that should never be allowed to use poisons. Cleric and Paladins.. this is a no brainer.
availability of items. some items should be able to be foraged OR ground spawns like yew leaves and Misty acorns. I read that drop rates would be increased.. that will help also...
just some thoughts.
Swich
OK I have been away for a few days and have had some time to think about all of this..
First let me say THANK YOU Negreth and all those who have worked to make a difference to the rogue class.. it's been a long time coming..
now on to what might become a wet blanket..
Stop a minute and think about how poison really works. ( not what you see in the movies).
poisons do not kill you in 30 seconds.. no matter if it is a spider, snake, or the bottle of cleaner under the sink.. They take time and the symptoms get more instence as time passes. If there was a way to make it so that the amount of damage taken was to encreace the longer the mob lives that might help with the agro problem. not sure if that would be easy to implement.
the idea of the recast time of the single use DD poisons. I think that 10 seconds is not long enough. think about it. if you get into a fight how long does it take to pull out a vial and dip you knife into it.?? AND do it with out poisoning yourself?? are we in essence calling a time out while we do it? these poison should be a one use per fight type poison. it only makes sence.
as for the ALL/ALL poisons.. there are 2 classes that should never be allowed to use poisons. Cleric and Paladins.. this is a no brainer.
availability of items. some items should be able to be foraged OR ground spawns like yew leaves and Misty acorns. I read that drop rates would be increased.. that will help also...
just some thoughts.
Swich
Reality doesn't translate into good gameplay.
Also if you want to roleplay, do it on the FV server and leave the rest of us out of it. That will just render the new poison system as useless as the old. This is an online MMORPG, not a Pen and Paper..sorry, just saying.
They are overpowered if you can take the hit and have concentrate maxxed, at least if the 6kDPS quoted was repeatable.
Ok how can you say a max hit of 30k is over powered when wizards hit for over 100k and you think 6k dps is a lot when wizards can do 20k plus dps. I mean Really you think a 30k 2 second click is over powered they have instant nukes!
with that said im happy with the way you changed this cause a 10 second re cast is a fair trade off. What i really didn't want to see was a 10 second cast time that would have made me a very sad panda, i nromaly wait ten seconds in between clicks any ways cause if i dont i get agro and die, thank your for your continued work to prefect the system Ngreth.
Catweazel
04-19-09, 07:46 AM
Ok how can you say a max hit of 30k is over powered when wizards hit for over 100k and you think 6k dps is a lot when wizards can do 20k plus dps. I mean Really you think a 30k 2 second click is over powered they have instant nukes!
with that said im happy with the way you changed this cause a 10 second re cast is a fair trade off. What i really didn't want to see was a 10 second cast time that would have made me a very sad panda, i nromaly wait ten seconds in between clicks any ways cause if i dont i get agro and die, thank your for your continued work to prefect the system Ngreth.
Just because wizards, mages, rangers, druids and necro's are insanely overpowered does not make a rogue clicking a nuke button for 6k free effort dps right. Our class might still have DPS problems, but becoming a caster is not part of the solution.
Neijitsu
04-19-09, 01:25 PM
Just because wizards, mages, rangers, druids and necro's are insanely overpowered does not make a rogue clicking a nuke button for 6k free effort dps right. Our class might still have DPS problems, but becoming a caster is not part of the solution.
Exactly. The correct way to deal with balancing rogues with 4 or 5 overpowered classes is not overpowering rogues to keep us in line; its trolling THEIR boards about how they need to get nerfed until someone gets the hint and their dps gets frozen for 5 years. Thats what monks did to us. *nod*
Just because wizards, mages, rangers, druids and necro's are insanely overpowered does not make a rogue clicking a nuke button for 6k free effort dps right. Our class might still have DPS problems, but becoming a caster is not part of the solution.
Once again, it doesn't add anywhere even close to 6k in a real environment. Quit freaking out over a bs test dummy parse.
Catweazel
04-19-09, 05:37 PM
Once again, it doesn't add anywhere even close to 6k in a real environment. Quit freaking out over a bs test dummy parse.
I expected better from you.
Soloing in pretty much any zone a rogue can solo in (HOS for my parsing, OGH for other testing) this "spell" when chain cast can easily hit 5k DPS, and most likely higher. It crits for 30k every 2 seconds with a favourable RNG. I don't even have concentrate maxxed and I am seeing crazy DPS fights, sometimes over 12k. I normally average 2k. The only reason its not been a huge problem is that you can burn through a few stacks very quickly and I just don't have the bag space or patience to fill my whole inventory with one shot poisons.
I expected better from you.
Soloing in pretty much any zone a rogue can solo in (HOS for my parsing, OGH for other testing) this "spell" when chain cast can easily hit 5k DPS, and most likely higher. It crits for 30k every 2 seconds with a favourable RNG. I don't even have concentrate maxxed and I am seeing crazy DPS fights, sometimes over 12k. I normally average 2k. The only reason its not been a huge problem is that you can burn through a few stacks very quickly and I just don't have the bag space or patience to fill my whole inventory with one shot poisons.
I don't operate in a solo environment, I only raid. In a raid environment it doesn't add anywhere even close due to resist's and other factors. Honestly I doubt it adds that in a solo environment either unless I see parses proving it can.
Like I said though, I am not arguing against the change, I am just disappointed by it. Since it is obviously going in though, I would like to see the poisons changed to instant cast as there is no reason to maintain a cast time on them now. At the very least allow us to switch poisons mid fight without losing dps. The utility poisons can be excluded from this suggestion as I can see that allowing them to be abused.
Its not overpowered till a DEV says it is, cause honestly you dont get to make that descion and neither do I.
I mean raid mobs have 40 million plus hit points now, 6k dps is a drop in the bucket
also ive tried clicking them non stop ive never seen 30 k every hit, and more get resisted than ones that hit and im max DD type aa. the higest dps i have ever seen is 2-3k with attack on.
This is in real raid situations not test dumbys.
Bottom line please stop knee jerking this, they add to our total dps with discs and attack running while backstabing. they are not our ONLY dps, if you think you can sit there with attack on and spam click posions and beat me while discing and backstabing and clicking a poison every now and then your very very very very wrong. You spend to much time clicking these and im gonna fly by your dps like your standing still. they are currently set as a suplement and they are working great the way they are now.
I do however agree we are not casters and should not spend our time spam clicking a posion cause OUR DPS WILL SUFFER but to blindly say this is overpowered is just wrong.
Droog_RN
04-20-09, 06:43 AM
I don't care if it adds 10 dps or 12k dps. I rolled a rogue, not some kind of poison power washer. This is goofy implementation - you have to admit that even if you find it to be "situationally" awesome.
This poison should not be able to be applied in combat (or any others, for that matter), the fact that it is was probably due to an oversight initially.
I think part of the reason that the new poisons have been made as powerful as they are is that you have to think ahead to get the best performance out of them. e.g. have the correct poison applied for the fight, and make sure it's fresh enough - before the fight starts. No "changing horses mid-stream" allowed (no juggling vials of potent venom during a battle)...
I don't care if it adds 10 dps or 12k dps. I rolled a rogue, not some kind of poison power washer. This is goofy implementation - you have to admit that even if you find it to be "situationally" awesome.
This poison should not be able to be applied in combat (or any others, for that matter), the fact that it is was probably due to an oversight initially.
I think part of the reason that the new poisons have been made as powerful as they are is that you have to think ahead to get the best performance out of them. e.g. have the correct poison applied for the fight, and make sure it's fresh enough - before the fight starts. No "changing horses mid-stream" allowed (no juggling vials of potent venom during a battle)...
In large trash clears on raids where poisons are most valuable, I pretty much stay in combat. So not being able to apply in combat would render the poison system virtually useless to me. Recast time will be fine if not really warranted, but the apply time needs to be removed.
silenceisgolden
04-20-09, 07:49 AM
yeah i defintely would not liek to see an OOC limiter instituted
Droog_RN
04-20-09, 08:25 AM
In large trash clears on raids where poisons are most valuable, I pretty much stay in combat. So not being able to apply in combat would render the poison system virtually useless to me. Recast time will be fine if not really warranted, but the apply time needs to be removed.
Taking 2 seconds to re-apply every 60 procs renders it virtually useless? I think you exaggerate...
silenceisgolden
04-20-09, 08:51 AM
Taking 2 seconds to re-apply every 60 procs renders it virtually useless? I think you exaggerate...
he was reffering to putting an OOC restriction on strike of shrazza the single hit DD not the others. if ther was an ooc restriction then during trash clears strike of shazz would be useless. could still use strike or bite of shissar though until they ran out but then youd haev to be ooc to re apply ( unless i missed soemthing)
Droog_RN
04-20-09, 09:04 AM
Tivia, at least, referred to "the poison system" ... not a single flavor of it.
I'm sorry if fixing this poison implementation (which borders on exploit, IMO) will be a "nerf" to your trash clearing prowess. While I think rogues need more power - this was not the way to make it happen.
Let's let this one go, and get Assassination juiced up somehow to be more useful on trash clears.
In a role-playing sense, it seems more roguely to me to use devatating martial attacks when mowing through the underlings than to hose them down with gallons of poison, anyway...
Ngreth Thergn
04-20-09, 09:59 AM
OK I have been away for a few days and have had some time to think about all of this..
First let me say THANK YOU Negreth and all those who have worked to make a difference to the rogue class.. it's been a long time coming..
now on to what might become a wet blanket..
Stop a minute and think about how poison really works. ( not what you see in the movies).
poisons do not kill you in 30 seconds.. no matter if it is a spider, snake, or the bottle of cleaner under the sink.. They take time and the symptoms get more instence as time passes. If there was a way to make it so that the amount of damage taken was to encreace the longer the mob lives that might help with the agro problem. not sure if that would be easy to implement.
the idea of the recast time of the single use DD poisons. I think that 10 seconds is not long enough. think about it. if you get into a fight how long does it take to pull out a vial and dip you knife into it.?? AND do it with out poisoning yourself?? are we in essence calling a time out while we do it? these poison should be a one use per fight type poison. it only makes sence.
as for the ALL/ALL poisons.. there are 2 classes that should never be allowed to use poisons. Cleric and Paladins.. this is a no brainer.
availability of items. some items should be able to be foraged OR ground spawns like yew leaves and Misty acorns. I read that drop rates would be increased.. that will help also...
just some thoughts.
Swich
45 seconds "recast" even came up, but I disagreed and we settled on 10 seconds.
from a RP perspective I agree with Paladins. Not so much Clerics. Especially since this game has "evil" clerics, and even the good ones, except certain gods, would not necessarily shy from using it. That said I may be moving it from priest and casters and giving them something else.
But in the end, for gameplay, we let paladins use it becuase it would not be balanced to disallow them to use it.
yeah i defintely would not liek to see an OOC limiter instituted
This was considered, but also rejected.
Tivia, at least, referred to "the poison system" ... not a single flavor of it.
I'm sorry if fixing this poison implementation (which borders on exploit, IMO) will be a "nerf" to your trash clearing prowess. While I think rogues need more power - this was not the way to make it happen.
Let's let this one go, and get Assassination juiced up somehow to be more useful on trash clears.
In a role-playing sense, it seems more roguely to me to use devatating martial attacks when mowing through the underlings than to hose them down with gallons of poison, anyway...
Just as you referred to the entire system..
This poison should not be able to be applied in combat (or any others, for that matter), the fact that it is was probably due to an oversight initially.
That is what I was responding too.
As for the rest, don't get me started on what I think about using role playing to justify anything in this game.
Has there been any talk of moving the drops to general tradeskill drops?
reason being not ever expantion will likely have scorpions, spiders, and mushrooms for us to farm new poisons.
If the poison components come from the same as shammy heal/hot pots then there would not be as many issues with drop rates or needed mob types per expantion. Think of how Chronal Resonance Dust is used on most of the new tradeskill items.(Used in 23 recipes according to alla http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=76864)
H
silentt
04-20-09, 01:48 PM
NGRETH,
seein as how there is a 10 second reuse on single dose line and you dont seem to be interested in making the poisons insta use, which they SHOULD be, we are not casters.
what are the chances of putting it on a 3rd line of spells? why would u make a single dose overwrite a proc?? Now if we want to use it as an opener we have to spend time casting instead of dpsing, wasnt one of the main points of this new poison line to increase our dps?? I agree with the recast of the single shots but please consider taking away cast times to put them on.
another thing what other class actually hast to continuously pay pp to a vendor to dps. yes for the most part its not expensive, but for those of us that dont have time to farm plat what happens when we runout of money? ballpark its around4-5pp for an attempt at a single dose poison, with it being around 496 triv i seem to make 1 out of 5 combines so that makes it around 20pp give or take per shot, that adds up really fast, is this just how its gonna be to be a rogue u gotta be rich in order to dps?? is there something in the works along with the poisons??
Kelru-Bristlebane
04-20-09, 02:33 PM
Something I would like to see is a counter showing how many procs you have left showing on the buff icon maybe. Something similar to the counters showing on debuffs showing strength of debuff. There is obviously code in there to count the number of procs and tell it when to fade, wouldn't think it would be too hard just to display the number on the icon. Would really help some of us to plan fights out better knowing we only had say 2 procs left on the poison.
As far as recast times and casting time, poison mastery AA is suposed to have a 2.5sec per level decrease on apply poison time. I would say increase the casting time over reuse time and if people wanna cast faster have them spend the AA points. Generally I think casting time on all poisons should be increased except maybe the utility ones seeing as how they should be for backup purposes and able to be used quickly if say the slower bites it and you need to get the mobs slowed.
A counter for procs left, ya know thats a good idea and would be very popular accross the board.
The priest have been given a counter for cures would it be possible to add this to poison? i mean buffs have a timer to tell you when they run out, why not poison procs left! this is a cool idea!
Ngreth Thergn
04-21-09, 06:50 AM
Has there been any talk of moving the drops to general tradeskill drops?
reason being not ever expantion will likely have scorpions, spiders, and mushrooms for us to farm new poisons.
If the poison components come from the same as shammy heal/hot pots then there would not be as many issues with drop rates or needed mob types per expantion. Think of how Chronal Resonance Dust is used on most of the new tradeskill items.(Used in 23 recipes according to alla http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=76864)
H
they are already on teh humanoid table, but WAY rare. I plan on changing this.
Something I would like to see is a counter showing how many procs you have left showing on the buff icon maybe. Something similar to the counters showing on debuffs showing strength of debuff. There is obviously code in there to count the number of procs and tell it when to fade, wouldn't think it would be too hard just to display the number on the icon. Would really help some of us to plan fights out better knowing we only had say 2 procs left on the poison.
As far as recast times and casting time, poison mastery AA is supposed to have a 2.5sec per level decrease on apply poison time. I would say increase the casting time over reuse time and if people wanna cast faster have them spend the AA points. Generally I think casting time on all poisons should be increased except maybe the utility ones seeing as how they should be for backup purposes and able to be used quickly if say the slower bites it and you need to get the mobs slowed.
I have put the "limit use counter" request into code. I do not think it is high on the list though. (more spells than poison have a limit use... so it will be generically useful to players)
as for the poison mastery bit. Unfortunately, that works with apply poison. These do NOT use apply poison.
That said. Since I have made apply poison all but useless... it *may* be possible to replace that with one that works for "buff" poisons. But some other internal changes need to happen. I am also not sure we can affect item cast times... (I just don't know... there may be something but I am in work posting about 2 hours before anyone else comes into work, so I have no-one to ask :) )
Nice to hear about the humanoid drop increase.
Apply Poison has been useless ever since the icon-based poisons came out, i thought...so whatever happens with it, I'm sure it will be better than its current state ;)
Droog_RN
04-21-09, 08:24 AM
Just as you referred to the entire system..
The only poison that would be affected to any great extent by requiring OOC to apply would be the new single-shot line... I felt certain that you could grasp the distinction, but I guess not.
edit: Surely you don't think when I say out of combat, that I mean rest mode... I'm just saying: crossed swords = no fresh poison applications. However you define out of combat, it should have been obvious in the context that I merely meant that we shouldn't be able to add a new poison while actively fighting something - i.e. being on one or more aggro lists.
Droog_RN
04-21-09, 08:36 AM
As for the rest, don't get me started on what I think about using role playing to justify anything in this game.
If you've read very many of Ngreth's posts - you know that he, at least, is interested in maintaining balance and effectiveness within some loose boundaries of role-playing - a.k.a. believability.
The only poison that would be affected to any great extent by requiring OOC to apply would be the new single-shot line... I felt certain that you could grasp the distinction, but I guess not.
edit: Surely you don't think when I say out of combat, that I mean rest mode... I'm just saying: crossed swords = no fresh poison applications. However you define out of combat, it should have been obvious in the context that I merely meant that we shouldn't be able to add a new poison while actively fighting something - i.e. being on one or more aggro lists.
Either you don't raid or you guys are slow. There are times where I have the "Crossed swords" for over an hour in raids. Heck if I am doing a lessons burn for AA there is Zero downtime. I am well aware of the difference between in combat and the ooc timer, don't even attempt to insult my intelligence here. If he moved it to in combat being no fresh applications, he might as well throw the entire system out the window. Fortunately this is a moot argument because ngreth wouldn't do that.
Kelru-Bristlebane
04-21-09, 09:33 AM
as for the poison mastery bit. Unfortunately, that works with apply poison. These do NOT use apply poison.
That said. Since I have made apply poison all but useless... it *may* be possible to replace that with one that works for "buff" poisons. But some other internal changes need to happen. I am also not sure we can affect item cast times... (I just don't know... there may be something but I am in work posting about 2 hours before anyone else comes into work, so I have no-one to ask :) )
Reducing the item casting time with poisons was exactly what i was trying to get at with my last post.
Droog_RN
04-21-09, 12:15 PM
Either you don't raid or you guys are slow. There are times where I have the "Crossed swords" for over an hour in raids. Heck if I am doing a lessons burn for AA there is Zero downtime. I am well aware of the difference between in combat and the ooc timer, don't even attempt to insult my intelligence here. If he moved it to in combat being no fresh applications, he might as well throw the entire system out the window. Fortunately this is a moot argument because ngreth wouldn't do that.
My guild raids - but we generally have at least few seconds between pulls while trash clearing when there are no live mobs in camp. I understand some people would think of that as "slow". I won't argue with you there. Depending on the mob AI (or AE), there's at least a decent chance that you won't automatically get on aggro when fresh mobs come into camp before the last mob is dead - particularly if tanks are doing their job. So sometimes at least - both in raids and lesson burns - you have the choice to drop into ooc long enough to get a poison applied before you start in on another target. You must choose between a couple rounds of melee in the next 2 seconds and 60 procs over the next 20-30 mins. Surely the opportunity arises often enough that it would not render the system "virtually useless". Further, I was not attempting to insult your intelligence, - just thought there may be some different interpretations of the term "ooc". (btw - I was referring to the somewhat more subtle difference between the hourglass and the swirly, not the hourglass and crossed swords - apparently you misread)
I just think it makes more sense that poisons be applied during a moment of relative calm - and not amidst a fray. And I prefer that things make sense - even in a game. And I don't think it's usually too much to ask.