View Full Version : LDoN Hard and pacify
10-22-03, 12:41 PM
For those enc that are successful with pacification in hard adventures....what is the int and cha that you found you have to have in order for you not to be resisted often. I was failing on pacification with int of 320 and cha of 274.
I have read elsewhere that cha had to be 305 to be successful, but this didnt make sense. I thought cha was checked when you fail/resist to see if the mob was going to come after you and didnt have to do with success of casting the spell.
Thx in advance
10-22-03, 01:02 PM
So it may get worse as she gets older...
I did a Hard Slaughter the other day...Pacified my way through for single and double pulls.
Int is somewhere around 180 for her and her Cha is a lowly 126.
I didn't log or parse, so going off of memory...
I'd say Paci was resisted about 1 in 6 times on the hard mission I did. On the other hand, I seemed to be having lousy luck with it that day...in that and other missions I did that day, it resisted far more often than it has before or since.
About 50% of the resists ended up in an aggro.
I realize that isn't very scientific. I'll try to log tonight and see if I can get my group to do another hard (if I can grab my normal core group, that will be no problem)
10-22-03, 01:37 PM
I pull a lot with the bard pacify song. I think no matter what attributes there's going to be a pretty decent amount of resists. It's just the way they tunned em. With 290 char and about 200 Int I still can get about a 20% resist rate. It's streaky though some times its like 5 mobs resist in a row, or I pacify 10 in a row no problem.
I try to pacify in order of least potential damage incase it causes agro. I also just settle on a lot of 2 pulls and mez. At least as a bard I can Fade too if needed.
It's a fun challenge though.
10-22-03, 03:09 PM
Quote:I have read elsewhere that cha had to be 305 to be successful, but this didnt make sense. I thought cha was checked when you fail/resist to see if the mob was going to come after you and didnt have to do with success of casting the spell.
Which is the case. You can't adjust the resist rate short of debuffing the mob's resists before casting, which sort of makes the whole pacification thing moot.
What the high cha does do is let you not get aggro'd as much, allowing you to try to pacify again.
10-22-03, 04:05 PM
Let me clarify. I am lvl 65 and have no problems pulling normal adventures...resistance to my pacification occurs every 10 adventures, once, if that much. I am in an all 65 group and in hard adventures. The first time I tried one, I had 5 resists in a row before the 5th one produce an aggroed back on me. My int is 320 and cha is 274. I am wondering if there are any enchanters out there with higher int and/or cha that have successfully pull a hard adventure with lvl 65 mobs in them and had at least a 50/50 success with pacify. I havent retried my pacification since then, but have just resorted to mezz pulling or just have a big tank pull and I mez the adds.
Does higher int help with resists? Does anything help with resists?
10-22-03, 05:13 PM
From what I've experienced, the level 65 Hard adventures mobs are VERY resistant to pacify. I've played with it a bit (no concrete numbers), but I'd guess that an average of 9/10 attempts get resisted. The only chance you have is to get 305cha and pray they don't aggro on resists...and keep trying.
I expect VI did this so that the Hard adventures wouldn't get trivialized by pacify. Anyone group doing a level 65 Hard should be able to handle one 900+ hitter, add 2 or 3 more and it could get messy. If you could reliably pacify on all pulls, it would be too easy.....challenge is good, as far as I'm concerned
10-22-03, 05:17 PM
Int doesn't help with resists. And for pacify, nothing has been listed as helping with resists.
Had the same experience myself, stopped using pacify, left that to bards or let a paladin pull. Much better that way. Supposedly with 305 cha you can cut the aggro chance enough to make it worthwhile, but I haven't gotten around to raising stat caps yet.
You might want to swing by www.therunes.net for future chanter related questions or even to ask this one there. Good site for chanters.
10-22-03, 09:24 PM
From watching guild enchanterts on Hard, things can most definitely aggro you on pacify even with maxed out stats.
Unless it's a very nasty room to pull from, it seems almost always safer to just charge the mob instead provided you've some good positioning/pushing. Takish-hiz is the only theme I can think of that's risky to rush mobs.
10-22-03, 11:10 PM
I have 355 INT and 305 CHA and was appauled at the amount of resists I get in hard adventures. I was landing 1 out of 6 and thats the truth.
The one Takish adventure we did on hard, I was able to stage my group away from the entrance/exit, and pull with Wind of Tashani, then zone out.
When I came back I was able to land pacify 4 out of 6 casts usually.
Last time I did hard was before they "tweaked" the amount of spawns in the adventures too. I hear Hard adventures are more spread out now.
10-22-03, 11:39 PM
Mobs on Hard is definitely more spread out. The exception to this is Takish where mobs are still quite packed. Guk mobs aren't as packed but pathing and mobs hiding behind corners can lead to unexpected pulls. Hard on Miragul and Rujarkian are almost trivial to single pull by just proximity aggro.
10-23-03, 01:45 AM
Working regularily with a Cleric who likes to pull, I can (although certainly not definitely) say that range appears to be a factor is catestrophic resists.
IE: If you are out of aggro range casting pac (eg assisting my ass while I am out there) then the odds of aggro seem low to nil. I have *never* seen pac aggro my partner in an Easy LDoN (over perhaps 20 adventures with this particular Cleric, <30AAs) and the only Hard I've tried, I only has one room to test but no fails there either. Not enough to be sure but max casting range might be wise.
10-23-03, 02:09 AM
Heh, Int determins mana pool for certain classes and influences different factors when it comes to tradeskilling(and probably a few other things im not remembering atm, but that sums it up nicely).
Charisma is checked against to determine aggro when you get a lull resist.
Lull and Pacification are MR based spells/songs with a 0 adjust (Lucy doesnt list it in the data shown, you have to look at the raw data to see it). You fail the MR check, you get a resist.
Cast lull type spell:
a. Mob MR is checked, if resisted checks charisma to determine aggro
b. MR check on mob passes, and Mob is lulled, for a forever to be debated amount of time (duration for bard lull is supposed to last 3 ticks per Lucy, heh).
As for the hard mission problems, learn to deal with getting 1-2+ mobs, you cant gimp the dungeons with pacify/lull. Just makes the hard missions... harder. Edited by: StevoWevo at: 10/23/03 2:11 am
EZ_Orme the Singing Bard
10-23-03, 04:56 AM
Quote:Which is the case. You can't adjust the resist rate short of debuffing the mob's resists before casting, which sort of makes the whole pacification thing moot.I cannot prove it, but I am fairly sure that pacify is a different check than other detrimental spells.
And those people saying they get 1/5 resists on pacify are either fibbing, much better at pressing a button than me, or making an honest counting mistake. It's closer to 1/5 success.
I always pop my CHA song before trying to lull in hard - so I'm at 305cha any time I attempt to lull. Even with that, I'm getting around:
2-3 success per 10 attempts.
3-4 non-fatal resists
3-4 fatal resists
I never attempt to pull with lull unless I have enough mana for Fading Memories. It is a pretty big gamble in hard.
10-23-03, 10:30 AM
One thing I've noticed is that if a mob resists the first pacify, it's about 95% likely to resist the next one as well.
Not sure if it's random MR variation between mobs (some spawn more uber than others) or just a sticky kernal in the RNG, but I pacify pull entire adventures (normal ones) and I've noticed this many times.
Usually when I get a resist, I skip that mob and get all the ones around it - then use boggle to pull the resisty one.
Boggle is a GREAT pulling spell for chanters - generates aggro, but only a very small amount. Any hit or spell will grab aggro from me (similar mechanics to con pulling I'd imagine) so I don't get beat on at all.
10-23-03, 10:51 AM
Stuff in Hard has very good MR. I also fail to see how you can only get only 1 in 5 resists on Hard, especially if you're trying to pacify stuff nearby Enchanters (they seem to buff magic resists, though hard to verify).
10-23-03, 12:16 PM
Both myself and the bard in our hard group were trying, and both having the same results.
1 in 6 pacifies/lulls landed
2 out of the 5 resists resulted in agro.
again 355 INT , 305 CHA
10-23-03, 02:02 PM
Quote:And those people saying they get 1/5 resists on pacify are either fibbing, much better at pressing a button than me, or making an honest counting mistake. It's closer to 1/5 success.
There's 2 other options. First, that they aren't 65 doing 65 hard. Pretty sure the resist rate wouldn't be nearly as bad for a 60 doing 60 hard (aka 65 normal). Second, there's resist and then there's the resists that get you aggro'd. It's the ones that get you aggro'd that people care about.
10-23-03, 04:46 PM
I think the various mobs on hard have varying resists depending on their type. That will to some extent explain why we get chain resists.
I generally get a lot of resists on Hard. Pacify is not worth it unless you need to tune down a really hard room, seems all camps has some dungeons with those. Pacify 2 mez one let 2 come etc.
I generally prefer to minimize use of Pacify though as it is so unreliable.
10-23-03, 11:41 PM
On my enchanter I have given up all together trying to pacify pull. I either get a bard because they can fade if they get a bad agro from resisted lull, get a monk to FD pull which is a lot slower resulting in a loss half of the time, or I just don't do a hard one.
Even elementally geared group can't handle 4+ mobs on hard withought extreme luck and skill... even 1 slip up and you're toasted. When mobs are hiting for 900+ with tripple the HP of normal, I think it is seriously insane to have such a high resist rate on pacify. It's hard enough chewing threw thier hp and keeping mana up when they are hiting that hard, having pacify resisted 4 out of 5 casts just slows you down too much to make it worth it.
10-24-03, 05:28 AM
I've beaten Hard Missions with SKs ( me ) and Monks pulling. Granted it's usually within 10 - 15 min of the finish time, but even includes a couple of deaths here and there. Overall, they're not that bad. Mobs hit for 900+, but seem to have low atk so they won't hit for max often. Also, it seems like their aggro range is a bit less and they don't camp you for long. So it's viable to FD pull.
10-24-03, 04:12 PM
You just really can't beat a bard pulling with lull and FM. Makes pulling pretty simple. Just kind of weird they made the bard of all classes the best puller in the game now.
10-24-03, 04:22 PM
Loads of data has been compiled on the pacify issue and CHA only helps with the secondary check for aggro. That being said it does help quite a bit. At 105 CHA a full 50% of the resists will get you aggro, at 305 CHA its more like 20%. The general rule of thumb for hard adventures is to have a monk/peeler team or a bard with lots of FT (fade really eats up the mana. I believe bards can get up to around 22 mana per tick back with the right gear and AAs). I find the Guk dungeon on hard to be near impossible to pull singles from. Thank goodness it is fairly easy to mez most of the mobs.
10-24-03, 05:02 PM
Hwalei, the whole point is that you need 305 charisma because you WILL be trying 5-10 times per mob, on average. So you want your aggro rate to be as low as possible.
At 305 charisma, my regular group's enchanter generally gets catastrophic aggro 1-2 times per hard adventure. She eats the death and we rez her and continue.
Her worst pacification attempt was trying to pacify 2 mobs surrounding a boss. I believe she expended 2 1/2 mana bars before she got both to be pacified at the same time.
10-26-03, 10:21 PM
I've found that the best thing to do is to forget pacifying completely on hard adventures. You get resisted far too much to make it worthwhile. Mobs do NOT have that high of MR as they don't resist mezzes and slows that much, even when not resist debuffed. I was LoM and had two mobs that I wanted to split, so I used gather mana. Bam full mana. Took me down to 50% to get one of them pacified, and I've got 305 cha, 325 int. The next hard adventure, I just pulled with mez and got maybe 1/20 initial resists. Much better to go that route when you're on such a tight time budget.
10-27-03, 04:36 AM
uhm for hard setting cleric makes the best puller.... not bard, because bards are ZERO dps . so i never invite bards. just high dps(including ranger for track & snare) +cleric+slower for hard setting.
fyi you wont get aggro on lull resists most time if you stay in max casting range, extended range items help. mobs simply dont attack if you far away , if you go closer they remeber you..
and avoid to lull caster npcs , their selfbuffs increase MR quite a lot you get much less resists on pure melee mobs with one exeption :there is also one kind creature per theme which is charmable but not rootable, these also very resistant, avoid lull on these aswell.
EZ_Orme the Singing Bard
10-27-03, 06:11 AM
Quote:uhm for hard setting cleric makes the best puller.... not bard, because bards are ZERO dps . so i never invite bards. just high dps(including ranger for track & snare) +cleric+slower for hard setting. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I have to wonder if you really mean this or you just want to be flamed.
Cleric, enchanter, dps, dps, tank
If you have those 5, a bard is far and away superior as an addition to the group than a raw dps class. If you're too stupid to understand why, then I'm not sure it's worth explaining.
10-27-03, 08:57 AM
Quote:uhm for hard setting cleric makes the best puller.... not bard, because bards are ZERO dps .
err... well, being a bard DOES have its downside.
10-27-03, 12:46 PM
Thx for all your responses. I find that FD pulling just eats up too much time and unless you are doing a pure slaughter, may run into time problems. I usually start pacifying in a normal mission when the mob we are on is at 40% health, so as soon as the mob dies, another one is arriving for the group to kill.
I now just mez pull. In most situations, that will bring another one or 2. Have a pally pull one and i mez the other. This results in faster kill rate (minimal down time going from mob to mob) to make the time limit and doesnt eat tons of mana (with failed pacify).
With SK or Pally, just have them stun or snare one. Whatever else comes, I mez....they stick to their original mob.
10-28-03, 03:00 AM
Send pet in and then mez stuff while the pet tanks works pretty well. You can avoid a lot of adds by just rushing mobs if people position/push in a smart way, though this doesn't happen very often. Of course there is a chance that rushing in will still get you 3+ mobs, but when mobs are that close together, FD/pacify pulling is usually quite difficult as well.
10-28-03, 05:53 AM
Quote:uhm for hard setting cleric makes the best puller.... not bard, because bards are ZERO dps.
Quick! Alert Thott!
10-28-03, 07:53 AM
Quote:Quick! Alert Thott!
Now I suppose he'll want clerics nerfed, because .00000001% of clerics pull better than bards...
10-29-03, 07:05 AM
Quote:Now I suppose he'll want clerics nerfed, because .00000001% of clerics pull better than bards...
I'd think the exact opposite would be his view: crowd control should not be the perogative of a single class. There might be specific places where you need to do something special... i.e. root park, snare kite, feign, pacify, gate 'em... but most of the time a number of classes should be able to step up to the role.
(Feign was an issue because at one point was the ONLY way to pull things.)
10-29-03, 11:12 AM
Wtih 355 int, 305 cha, resist rate is about 80%. Quite often I do not have time to pacify the room sufficiently before I have some wearing off. Aggro is somewhat rare, but since I am the one with the aggro and the resulting problems, I am pretty sure you're much better off reverting to mezzing only.
We tried bard pulling a few times, but with all the resists and the need to FM, it's not that much faster if at all than FD - and you need some serious FT to keep it up. But it's a better option than using cleric/enchanter pacification for sure.