Why not....

[EZ_Syndal Baenre]

Why not increase the chance to crit with backstabs only? Just like rangers can crit a whole lot with bow shots, why not have an AA skill that'll let you increase the amount of crits with BSes only? That'll put average joe schmoe rogue on par with your average ranger. As it is, joe schmoe rogue with his piddly epic or APMB and all his AAs can't do no where near the damage a ranger with the same amount of AAs and his Bazaar bought Stonewood Bow can. Seeing rangers crits come fast and frequently makes me sick sometimes. I double BS for about 1k +change and they shoot it 2-3 times for the same amount of damage. With EACH shot. Something wrong with that. I made a rogue for the fun value as well as being able to contribute something good to the group. Now, it's an easy choice for people to go with rangers rather than rogues if they only want damage. They get higher dps AND more utility. Go figure... :">

Annoyed,

Syndal Baenre
65th Pain in the Behind

[EZ_Daabu]

Are you sure that those rangers just dont have Fury of the Ages maxed? If you have a maximum dex, and Fury of the Ages3, you will get critical hits a lot. It's just the way things are.

Yes, bows have a higher chance to crit each hit, but thats because you arent dual wielding or double attacking with it, so it makes sense. If you have the same AA skills, then for the most part, your crits and a rangers crits increase your dps by the same percentage.

[EZ_PolyphonyMultichord]

Rangers have an innate ability to crit without combat fury.

[EZ_BlittzofXev]

just like we have the innate ability to crit a throw.

Sy

[EZ_Fenrin]

Pity our throwing damage is never on par with that of a Ranger with a bow(unless you have that throwing item from Time, but those are a lot harder to get than a Stonewood)

[EZ_LenasLightarrow]

Your range damage isn't meant to be on par with a Ranger's.

[EZ_Tuivian]

Bows are and have been until they decide to fix it, a situational option of attack. If people stand in the way, you can't hit your mob, if they are in the wall, or on a slope you can't hit your mob, and places like LDoN it is very hard to make using a bow viable since it is so cramped. As for the high end game, Rogues still easily outdamage us even if we are using a bow.

[EZ_Syndal Baenre]

The thing is, I'm not talking high end game. I'm talking about Average Joe Schmoe Rogue with all his AAs and dualing APMB and RB compared to Average Joe Schmoe Ranger with all his AAs using a Bazaar bought Stonewood Compound Bow. The dps is way off if you compare the two. I know you say it's "situational", BUT so is BSing. Mob stuck against wall or in corner and tank too krappy/ignorant to get it out? No BSes then. That's not the point though. Like I posted ealier, I was grouped with a ranger using just his Stonewood Bow, and I was, at the time, using RB and LDoM. The ranger was easily out damaging me with his bow. He wasn't Elemental equiped at all. Just had all his offensive AAs. He was critting with his bow for easily 2-3 times more damage than I was doing in the time it took for my BS button to pop back up. I was enchanter hasted, item hasted, and bard hasted at the time too. Something seems wrong with that to me.

Syndal Baenre
65th Pain in the Behind

[EZ_AsturiasAurora]

I agree to an extent. It's downright embarassing to look at your eyecandy backstabs, every 5.5 seconds (with haste) then turn on 'others hits' and see that ranger obliterating the mobs and making your eyecandy backstabs seem nothing more than pin-pricks.

Perhaps something along the lines of 'Dagger Mastery' wouldn't be too much to ask for. We can only backstab if we have a dagger in our mainhand, ergo we will always carry a dagger, ergo our familiarity with daggers should be second to none, just as the rangers familiarity with their bows are.

Now obviously, to keep the rangers from whining anymore than they already do, it would have to be limited a bit. Possibly adding something as simple as an extra damage bonus to our mainhand weapon if it happens to be a dagger. Subtle, yet suiting.

I don't expect to be inline with rangers damage, especially seeing as how their bows from the elemental planes are so easily obtainable these days. There's no contest there. Time equipped Rogues 'may' be able to match elemental equipped rangers if they're lucky but that's as far as I'm willing to admit to.

Rangers are great dps; if they are able to use their bow then I don't see why they woudln't be able to lay some serious smackdown as all the rangers in all the stories we ever heard about could. But Rogues are also just as situational. We need a back 30 degree arc in order to stab what even closely resembles a back. At that time, since backstabbing is our forte, I would think we should get a little bit of something extra for our own dps to at least come within eyesight of the dps rangers do.

I don't see it as ever happening though. Seems a lot of folks in SOE are casters or rangers these days. Long gone are the days of Kendrick...

~Coins Malone~

[EZ_Syndal Baenre]

Sing it sister!

Syndal Baenre
65th Pain in the Behind

[EZ_Northerner]

I'd actually advocate an increase in Ranger bow damage to be honest. It is pretty situational quite often and they should deal damage well with it. I'd do it through better bow itemization though, with the present buyable bows as the baseline. Arguably a better way would be through some seriously interesting arrows to be found that would only benefit the EQuiv crowd. Mechanically I know arrows are a pain but it could be done perhaps to increase overall ranger bow dps without increasing the crits too damn much.

Of course I'd also advocate an increase in the general 'eye-candy' crits for Rogues also. Perhaps unlink the double-backstab somewhat and allow the first of the two hits an increase of 50% damage with a decrease of 50% on the second. No net effect (well, a small dps increase and a small decrease in the worth of ferocity) but more pretty shots. That would be a coding pain likely though so perhaps the best answer is a much more effective duelist that either last a goodly while or is a massive dps increase over 9 seconds (thinking 8 times and 6 times here). An interesting but also painful to code method would be to increase the chance of a crit on any maximal backstab. More 1204s (or 2389s or whatever) would be nice to make one amused.

Of course, I don't really care in the end. Crits are oddly fun eye candy indeed but efficiency is the name of the game. I figure the upcoming tomes will give us a few opportunities for that wonder-crit anyhow, all without really increasing our dps that much.

[EZ_Dadai]

Backstab are and have been until they decide to fix it, a situational option of attack

[EZ_Syndal Baenre]

Hmm... I think Northerner missed my point. I wasn't talking about just eyecandy. This ranger was doing this REGULARLY. I'm also not comparing just what I see in text. I'm also checking it out on my parser. You're talking about increase/decrease. That does nothing for dps like you say. So why'd you say it? I'm talking straight out dps comparing Average Joe Schmoe Rogue with Average Joe Schmoe Ranger. High end has nothing to do with this nor does "eye-candy". I'm sorry to sound irritated, but just grouped with another ranger that did that to me. I'm using MDoD and RB now. Very upsetting. (Did I do too many uphappy faces? Sorry, but this is kind of upsetting. )

Syndal Baenre
65th Pain in the Behind

[EZ_Acturian]

hi rangers do less dps then paladins in time, quit thinking bows are great, they're not, mobs corner pinned can't be bowed.

bows are for exp grps and perma rooted mobs and ae mobs who aren't cornered.

archery being turned into this big hype was so stupid, was great in luclin, it's not anymore. you should turn on misses too, i get my fair share of8, miss miss and 100 hits with stone.

in the right situation, ranger shines. Past that, bow sucks. let the dead horse stay dead plz.

[EZ_Syndal Baenre]

Once again, BSes are just as situational as archery. Mob pinned into a corner? You can't shoot it? I can't BS it. Dead horse deader if you're shooting it as compared to if I'm BSing it.

Syndal Baenre
65th Pain in the Behind

[EZ_RobDrinalBrown]

"Once again, BSes are just as situational as archery. Mob pinned into a corner? You can't shoot it? I can't BS it."

You have got to be joking, right? You are joking. Please tell me that was a joke.

Carry on with your comparison to a kunark era weapon to a tier 4 bow. Edited by: RobDrinalBrown at: 12/4/03 9:03 pm

[EZ_Acturian]

you've obviously never been on a raid where you pin a mob.

I think the only raid I've seen rogues not able to kill a mob after pin is Dain, front push to keep in nook.


BS ain't situational. it's fulltime. Archery's shyte. i want my melee balancing pls.

[EZ_Dekarr]

Also, your argument itself is defeating itself. You claim you want the AA's for backstab mastery for the average joe shmoe rogue to equal a ranger with a Elemental bow (itemization problem)

Giving said AA's would allow time equipped rogues to buy the same AA and absolutely demolish a rangers DPS, what you are asking for is unbalancing.


There are many problems with archery, sure there are a few lucky streaks but its all just random.


What you want to fix the problem is perhaps a mid level damage table increase ( level 60~) or itemization fix. Edited by: Dekarr at: 12/5/03 12:35 am

[EZ_Montecrizto]

Stonewoods and all elemental bows should have somehow been made no drop to begin with. However, its too late. Giving rogues extra backstab damage is only going to bridge the melee gap further end-game, and would not only make rangers unhappy but monks as well.

Archery has become less and less effective in the end-game, as Time weapon damage is >= the best bow damage, and has none of the headaches. Bow of the Tempest needs a serious upgrade in its ratio, which is nearly identical in ratio to Stonewood. A bow that drops off one of the 5 hardest encounters in game, has nearly equal ratio to one sold in bazaar. Its @#%$ ridiculous.

No sympathy.. if joe rogue doesn't want to get outdamaged by joe ranger in plane of valor, they can get themselves some new gd weapons. Its very possible to create a nearly elemental-ratio poker with LDoN now.

[EZ_Acturian]

Dekarr, you present a good arguement, however I call BS.

On any server, on any given week, any level62+ rogue can get a 16/19 and a 17/24 dagger. Additionally, 15/21, and 14/19 daggers coming from LDoN which can be aug'd into spectacular weapons, is well, also calling BS.

Additionally, you pair this with your average ranger, only about 50-60% of us have elemental bows you know... but staying on topic, and you find the dps is very, very similar. your average exp grp ranger doesn't have much more then his 30 innate attack from swiftwind, usually lacks avatar, and is happy to see 1600atk, where some of us are used to 1900-2400.

Ranger with twisted longbow AM3 EQ puts out roughly 90dps. That sucks. I do better with primal/swiftwind in melee. My rogue friend did 120-130dps in valor with rb + 12/17 poker from ntov. rogue I play has shank/tendonslicer and does 145-160, on a consistant basis... I do 120-200, depending on a slew of things.

If the situation is perfectly ideal, archery wins for about 30-40% of a ranger's lifetime. Kinda pathetic for the aa invested. (CF3 [12] fota3[9] am3[18] eq [9] , yay 48aa for something situational)

[EZ_Garrik le Jackal]

Beat the Purge Poison [5] Hastened Purification [2] [4] [6] for a 50 minute reuse remove poison dots! (which can be used to my knowledge, only on tash and quarm poison dot)

Beat that! hehe =)

[EZ_AsturiasAurora]

Acturian,

Yes, 50-60% of the rangers out there DON'T have elemental bows--this is true.

But there's a lot more Rogues who don't have those 16/19, 16/21 or 17/24 daggers, mainly because they are all no drop and require either a pretty good investment in time (16/19 LDoN dirk) or a pretty decent raid force to obtain (16/21 or 17/24 daggers). A lot of us end up using our Epics up and through 65 due to lack of other choices (though some of us offhand it, or if we're lucky we may finally get the option to bag it if we're already making up the haste and atk elsewhere). Ranger epics are pretty keen in that right; you can still keep them equipped in Primary and Secondary for stats/haste alone and STILL use the bow for more.

Rangers, while some may be limited in funds, it IS still possible for them to buy such items as a Stonewood Compound bow, Primordial Driftwood Bow or other 'godly' ratio bows. If Rogues could buy daggers like the 17/24 or 16/19 as easily, then maybe you'd have an argument there.

The items themselves are fine; both about on par with what you would think a Rogue/Ranger of that level/caliber would have. The issue is with distribution mainly. Make the elemental bows No Drop then there wouldn't be nearly as much gripe from either class about competition.

Rangers can obtain good bows from Tier 3 just like Rogues can obtain good daggers (bow from Tallon Zek comes to mind...), so it wouldn't be for lack of choice that Rangers would be missing out.

Yes, Rangers have issues with mob placement (just as Rogues do). We know Rangers can't shooot as well if the mob is in a wall or a corner. Well, guess what? You think Rogues can BS during those same times?...

That's just my view though.

[EZ_Kaail Lasra]

Other than dain, I honestly cannot think of ANY mob I haven't been able to backstab on a raid as a rogue. As for my ranger, I can't shoot the majority of them. not to mention that my melee(if not using trueshot), outdamages my archery pretty often when playing my ranger.

Another thing, do you have your rogue's aa's? Ambidexterity, Ferocity 3, crits 3 etc.? Don't compare you're dmg to an am3 ranger if you don't have all of those. Cause my rogue was using rb main, and 12/17 in off, and I was hitting 140-160 in normal exp groups with just an ench. with Gargloyle talon main, and rb off, I can exceed 200 dps with just rng/enc/shm buffs.

[EZ_Dadai]

Quote:Another thing, do you have your rogue's aa's? Ambidexterity, Ferocity 3, crits 3 etc.? Don't compare you're dmg to an am3 ranger if you don't have all of those.

And we are back to the orginal topic of this post

Rogues need backstab mastery AA!



Edited by: Dadai at: 12/9/03 10:18 am

[EZ_SSARedChief]

One thing that has been parsed on the ranger boards is that a average ranger with Primal does the almost the same DPS as he would with a Stonewood. The Avatar proc makes that much of a difference. Now as to rangers doing a lot of crits, you need to remember a few things. 1st they most likely have CF3 and FotA3 to show that off. 2nd you dont see the hits for 50 that come between them. And finally you dont need a Stonewood for nice eyecandy crits. I routinely got 1k+ shots with a Bone Carved Shortbow (38/40).

[EZ_Lomack]

I have to agree, and partially disagree here.

I'm one of those rogues that just hasn't been fortunate on dagger drops. I've been 65 for quite a while now (before LoY). I'm fully EP flagged (half time flagged), and my primary weapon is a Tendon Slicer with RB off hand. I have all my offensive AAs (except dbl riposte, heh).

I'd like to buy a stonewood bow, but its hard for me to part with that kind of cash for just another AoB item, when my current range item is decent... However, were I a ranger I would of jumped on a Stonewood bow months ago.

The point here, is that its not necessarily easy for rogues to get 16+ dmg weapons. Which would be a step in the right direction to put a fully AAed Rogue on part with the damage from a fully AAed Ranger. However, I also realize that using a bow is much more situational than backstab. Its pretty rare that I can't manauver for a backstab on a mob, raid or xp group.

Personally I'm not really too concerned that rangers can do more DPS than me when mobs are situated for bows to be used. Once I get some dagger upgrades it really won't be as much of an issue for me. However, I think part of the problem here is the rangers eye candy. Maybe its my dagger, being that its only 15dmg, my crits rarely get into the 1k range. Most of the time my crits are for less than maximum normal backstab, unless im raid buffed.

Perhapse instead of a "Dagger Mastery" AA. Something like a "Backstab Mastery" AA would be more in line. I'm not sure that rogues need to be doing more damage accross the board. But, it sure would be nice if we appeared as though we were the melee DPS monsters that many say we are. A backstab mastery AA would be along the lines of increased chance to critical hit with a backstab. If SOE feels we need a bit of a damage boost, have it also include an increased chance to hit with a backstab. If we were doing critical hit damage more often with our backstabs we would have that eye candy that many so desire. Without a marked increase in our overall dps.

[DarthEnderX]

Offhand Backstab.

/nod