VT camp rule now ? (the talk log with lv 65 admin GM)

[EZ_EvildukeWD]

At first we are very superised there is one guild named brothers of darkness which can hold on VT more than 12 hours in order to wait the named spawn one by one. They wait for any named pop , COH to kill it then keep wait it. But it break the camp rule make by GM before : you have to kill VT named in sequence (And there is no bug nowafter the VT patched the warders problem, or BOD cant do any mob ). So we talk with GM that day for asking the camp rule in VT now.Because My guild's target is VT too, and they raid time over to our timezone. So we talk with GM about this question.Any way we left the VT to BOD because we dont want to waste time for waiting mob pop.But the VT camp rule still need to figure out:

the following is the log we take

Saegel is the lv 65 admin GM at the nameless

[Mon Dec 01 22:48:28 2003] You tell your party, 'so no any VT rule from now on ? no any camp rule ?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:48:42 2003] You tell your party, 'I am loging it and I will post out let whole EQ player know it'

[Mon Dec 01 22:48:56 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'its ok'

[Mon Dec 01 22:49:09 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'camping and laepfrogging are totaly different things'
(this is because the Bod petition us for we are doing named too , but the goal we want to know is to figure out the camp rule now)

[Mon Dec 01 22:49:19 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'yes,'

[Mon Dec 01 22:49:27 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'duke, '

[Mon Dec 01 22:49:31 2003] You tell your party, 'please answer me the question .. . we dont care mob now'

[Mon Dec 01 22:50:23 2003] You tell your party, 'if u tell me no any VT rule at VT now . . and if one Guild at VT no other guild can kill VT . . we will follow it'

[Mon Dec 01 22:50:58 2003] You tell your party, 'ok so we dont need kill in sequensce ? '

[Mon Dec 01 22:51:06 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'any guild not killing in sequence is in the wrong'
(Seems there is still a rule : VT need to kill in sequence. and I think BOD dont know it or they break this rule)

[Mon Dec 01 22:51:11 2003] You tell your party, 'and if one guild at VT . no other guild can touch any named at VT ?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:51:32 2003] You tell your party, 'yes BOD didnt killing in sequence'

[Mon Dec 01 22:51:45 2003] You tell your party, 'they killed the 3f slime x 2 first '

[Mon Dec 01 22:51:56 2003] You tell your party, 'then coh back 1f kill to despawn warder'

[Mon Dec 01 22:52:09 2003] You tell your party, 'then coh to KILL TVK and DXVT Skip DXXT'

[Mon Dec 01 22:52:20 2003] You tell your party, 'is this called : kill in sequence ?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:52:32 2003] You tell your party, 'if yes . . I will let all ppl know it'

[Mon Dec 01 22:52:42 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'no that is not killed in sequence but ther is no proof of this'

[Mon Dec 01 22:52:57 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'i cant do anything without proof'
(So the BOD disobey the GM rule but just we cant PROVE it ? okok next time try to make a guide follow them.)

[Mon Dec 01 22:53:35 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'but that still doesnt say who was in the zone first'

[Mon Dec 01 22:54:04 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'Saegel so there are your mean, who in Zone first, and who get all of zone mobs'

[Mon Dec 01 22:54:13 2003] You tell your party, 'is that ?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:54:29 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'yup, it is'

[Mon Dec 01 22:54:36 2003] You tell your party, 'any guild at VT . .no other guild can touch any mob ?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:54:53 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'we all got the point'

[Mon Dec 01 22:55:13 2003] You tell your party, 'seems we need to put one char at VT whole weeks lol'

[Mon Dec 01 22:55:27 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'they are just 30 ppl there'

[Mon Dec 01 22:55:32 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'we are 60 ppl there before'

[Mon Dec 01 22:55:44 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'yes, we leave, cause they " in zone first "'

[Mon Dec 01 22:55:52 2003] You tell your party, 'what a joke'

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:12 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'its ok, Duke, we got the point'

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:20 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'the guide only came to the zone because you were reported in a petition'
(GM blur the focus again .... sigh..)

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:28 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'yes'

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:46 2003] You tell your party, 'so we need the conclusion'

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:48 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'reguarding leapfrogging'

[Mon Dec 01 22:56:58 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'Saegel, could you answer me the question? why we have need to leave'

[Mon Dec 01 22:57:39 2003] You tell your party, 'what ur answer we will let all EQ player to know it and how the GM deal with VT rule now'

[Mon Dec 01 22:57:41 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'for the reason that the guide wanted to clear the zone so a gm could come online and sort the dispute out'

[Mon Dec 01 22:58:13 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'Yes, did you said BoD the guild can try in first?'

[Mon Dec 01 22:58:25 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'if didnt, we back VT just now'

[Mon Dec 01 22:58:53 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'sorry i didnt understand that'

[Mon Dec 01 22:59:44 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'we can back Vex Thal now , and kill everything we want?'

[Mon Dec 01 23:00:07 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'The guide told both guilds not to kill anything, and bod didint stop, although it turns out bod was in the right anyway'
(BOD didnt stop attack to kill small AHR . . this is not allowed and he think BOD was in the right way buz we cant PROVE they are not kill in sequence . bah )

[Mon Dec 01 23:00:13 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'yes'
(buz no named now popped ...)

[Mon Dec 01 23:00:27 2003] You tell your party, 'sigh . . such a pity while last week BOD didnt kill in sequence and I pettioned but no GM or guide come check it'

[Mon Dec 01 23:00:33 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'so we can back just now and do what we want'

[Mon Dec 01 23:00:51 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'Duke, we can back for wait too now'

[Mon Dec 01 23:01:03 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'even though bod wernt killing in sequence it gave you no right to attack the mobs as well'

[Mon Dec 01 23:01:29 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'yes, we wont to attack who another doing killing'

[Mon Dec 01 23:01:37 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'we know that '

[Mon Dec 01 23:01:43 2003] You tell your party, 'oh ? then how will the GM does with those guild who didnt kill in sequence ? '

[Mon Dec 01 23:02:02 2003] You tell your party, 'if we can prove it '

[Mon Dec 01 23:02:07 2003] Saegel tells the group, 'i will talk to them'
(...... talk to them ? ? )

[Mon Dec 01 23:02:14 2003] Wudi tells the group, 'its ok, we cant do anything cause we have no PROVE'


The GM left

[EZ_Mythal]

Simplest VT rule: Whoever gets Blob 1 down, gets the zone.

Since mobs will not respawn in the same order they were killed, due to the random timer each has, going to kill them out of order should not be penalized (after all, it still carries a risk, that the previous mob will spawn as you're fighting and its warders send you to zone in).

And, by the way, you can do pretty much every mob in VT with 20 people, so saying that "We have 60, they have 30" doesn't mean much.

[EZ_Shadowbladez]

Agree Myrth.

/Z

[EZ_KordinDwarvenWrath]

Quote:[Mon Dec 01 22:57:39 2003] You tell your party, 'what ur answer we will let all EQ player to know it and how the GM deal with VT rule now'

Sorry but you look like an A**. who are you to talk to a GM like that ? I am not surprised that with such a behaviour, the GM is not inclined to take a decision that will pleae you.


When it comes to kills in VT, my guild no longer raids VT at our normal raid time (we are a euro time guild), we raid elementals at our normal raid time.

We have magicians about everywhere in VT and kill out of our raid time any mob that pops. (blob1, dxxt, dxx, dxv and blobs2) VT sequence is far from behing our main concern since with new warders you no longer bug VT.
If enough people are motivated, we go for aten ha ra after our raid time with usually 25-35 toons and skip aten blobs(need motivation to start the clearing at 1am).

I think other guilds on my server only come to VT to kill only one mob.

The result is that VT is very splited (example this week ; blob1 killed on day1 by US guild, aten ha ra killed on day2 by us, aten blobs killed on day4). All that make the idea of VT sequence funny.

CoHing to mobs with minimum force worked good for us and nothing beside some aten ha ra loot roted so far.

Quote:Simplest VT rule: Whoever gets Blob 1 down, gets the zone.

How do you do when blob1 is not up and maybe already dead ? Edited by: KordinDwarvenWrath at: 12/5/03 2:41 am

[EZ_EvildukeWD]

who are you to talk to a GM like that ?

simple . buz I am the guild raid leader and officer I need to deal with this with all my guild members and take responsiblity . GM is for dealing with those kind of issue and we are their customers. VI pay them to serve the money payer.

[EZ_KordinDwarvenWrath]

shows alot of your personality ...

You don't look like an A**, you are an A** but this is not a place for flaming so I will drop it.

[EZ_Kinal]

As a member of BoD, I figure I'll let other people know what's really going on here (however I dont think server-specific drama belongs on the Safehouse)...

War Dragon, the guild EvildukeWD is in, is a guild primarily based in Eastern Asia. For the past 6 months or so, they farmed VT every patch day. And thanks to the joys of VT spawn times, SoE's choice of patch hours, and the fact that they intentionally waited until the last minute to kill any named, they got it in their timezone EVERY week. Well, about a month ago, BoD got tired of picking over WD's scraps (TVX x2, DXX and TXD usually), so we staged an all-nighter to move VT spawns closer to US timezones. We've done it 3 times now since SoE keeps taking the servers down on us.

War Dragon is simply whining since they no longer have a time zone imposed monopoly on the zone.

Duke... you want us to kill VT in "sequence"? Fine. Leave VT up today and we'll kill it in sequence when we get home from work. We'll even let you send in your usually omnipresent rogue scout to watch us and make sure we kill it the way you like.

Edited by: Kinal at: 12/5/03 5:49 am

[EZ_Fendryl Istalindir]

Competition for content sucks, it sucks to deal with as a player, and it's a waste of time to deal with as a customer support rep. There's a difference between helping people with ingame problems & having to be a babysitter for 30+ people.

Instance Kael, Sleepers, Ssra, VT, and all of PoP, and all this silly drama goes away.

[EZ_Derrict]

Quote:who are you to talk to a GM like that ?

English isn't his primary language so the wording tends to be drawn out of text. It came out a little ruder than probably what his intent of the question was.

The way things run on The Nameless tend to be different than other servers. There is no Time rotation, there are no ' rules' so to say, it's first come first server. If a guild doesn't clear VT in one day and another guild has CoH toons setup and they make the move to finish it, first guild gives up their right on the remaining mobs since they didn't finish the job.

WD should've just left BoD with the spawns rather than try using a GM to get the mobs back on Asian spawn times. I'll leave WD's previous history of trains and blowing Luclin spawns out of this since it sounded like they didn't train someone when they didn't get 'their' spawn.

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Quote:War Dragon, the guild EvildukeWD is in, is a guild primarily based in Eastern Asia. For the past 6 months or so, they farmed VT every patch day. And thanks to the joys of VT spawn times, SoE's choice of patch hours, and the fact that they intentionally waited until the last minute to kill any named, they got it in their timezone EVERY week.Sounds very similar to the Asian alliance on my server. They got VT nearly every week because of the same reasons and farmed it for months and months. When a guild finally challenged them by waking up at 6 AM on a Saturday for some good FFA action, the Asian alliance whined about how unfair it was. This is almost deja vu, it's exactly similar to what happened on my server, down to the leader of the Asian guild posting about it pubilcly.

SoE, fix VT spawn times. Do not make the zone pop on server up. Problem solved. You fixed this with EP, do the same with your other content.

[EZ_nieros]

Just a 'by the way', on Tribunal we have a rotation.
Kinda old school, but hey it works.

Virtually everyone hates the place, but it gears up members quick so we do it. ( and one of the guilds doing it is not elemental yet )

Simply get 2 days to clear and kill AHR, if ya dont kill her, its FFA until next full spawn. ( gives a bit of lee-way if you get bored half way through or want to do something else the first night - ie an ele pop )

Everyone keeps it civil and posts when AHR died on a section on our msg board to let the next guild know when to expect a full pop.

Think we up to 5 guilds doing it now, and all guilds envolved are happy with it

As for that Asian guild farming it every week, -damn- I can only feel sorry for those guys. Personally that would drive me mental :P

- nieros
Legendary

[EZ_Maeya82]

Personally, I don't find clearing to AHR that bad. Once you get on the 3rd floor, there are like 6 spawns to clear, and BAM, you're at a named. The horrible part about VT is on the first floors, where it takes an hour or more to clear to the mobs who only drop 'pretty good' loot, by VT standards. I don't feel sorry for WD at all, they obviously do not mind it for they do it time after time after time after time. And, cong WD. SoE pulled another ninja patch this morning, undoing all the hard work and effort put in by BoD, to give you guys another easy, uncontested run at AHR.



Ps. Why was the GM in the group? I've never seen that before. Edited by: Maeya82 at: 12/5/03 7:54 am

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

SoE, fix VT spawn times. Do not make the zone pop on server up. Problem solved

That doesn't solve the problem, that just migrates it to a different time zone. Asian players have as much right to the content as euro players, who have as much right as EST players, who have as much right as PST players.

As Fendryl says above, if they would just get smart and implement a proper (i.e. not LDoN spawn-at-will style) instancing system on the most contested zones, all these problems go away, and no one will care what timezone you're in.

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Quote:That doesn't solve the problem, that just migrates it to a different time zone. Asian players have as much right to the content as euro players, who have as much right as EST players, who have as much right as PST players.I never suggested an advantage to anyone. I suggested equal rights to spawn times. Right now Asian guilds get VT on server up every patch day. If there is no Asian guild, then the Euro guild gets it. Then the EST, then the PST. Why? Because all of VT spawns on server up. This is not equal rights in any way, shape, or form.

I suggest randoming VT spawn times just like Ssra and EP mobs. It would be preferable if say, at a specific random time after server up that all of VT names spawn at the same time. Let's face it, no one wants to spend hours clearing VT to not do the majority of the named. At the very least, randomize all the named separately. This way, at least the last people to log in after a patch still have a chance at VT.

Edit: Yes, instancing the zone would be great. Almost too good. I doubt it will happen any time soon. Edited by: Sensei Kadd at: 12/5/03 8:35 am

[EZ_UgZug]

The Brothers of Darkness (BoD) have spent now THREE all-nighters fighting the patch/spawn-time issue. We have gone on marathon raids (starting at midnight EST till 4:00pm EST) to snatch these MOBs away from the Asian guilds. Every patch obliterates the efforts we put in to have a SHOT at VT. Every patch requires 30+ of our US folks to stay up all night, foregoing sleep, missing work (potentially). This is an old problem with VT and one that will likely never, ever change. Although we in the BoD know this to be the case, it is still deeply frustrating to see our efforts for naught.

So, when we were facing a potential leap-frogging by WD on the last all-nighter, yes, we petitioned them as soon as they entered the zone in force. Their reputation preceded them and we knew that they weren't coming to the zone to wait and see "how we did"... they were coming to contest us in the zone.

Both DXXT and Mini-Aten spawned. We were currently at our CoH point on the 2f. WD CoHed to DXXT and sat there. We wait to allow them to kill the MOB, knowing that when DXXT was dead, the warders would drop and we could just continue to progress through Mini-Aten to eventually take AHR herself.

Still they waited....

Mind you, I respect WD for their abiliity to mobilize and take down targets pretty quick. This was not they were doing. This was a stalling tactic designed to discourage our US people who had had no sleep all night and hopefully run us out of the zone because we were tired and didn't have the mindset to fight them.

They were wrong....

We petition again - and then we begin to CoH to the DXXT room. I believe WD saw that we were not going to wait for them indefinitely and they pulled DXXT. We now had target health information on DXXT and could follow along to verify they were completing the kill. We CoH BACK to the 2f.

DXXT dies, and in the meantime our leadership was in communication with a Guide. This guide escalates the issue to a Lead GM. Mind you - this is the FASTEST GM-Admin response I believe I have EVER seen - so cong SoE for that. I am not privy to the actual conversation with the GM - our leadership doesn't post threads of GM discussion - there's a reason why the GMs speak to the leaders and not every Tom, ****, and Harry in the guild.

When DXXT dies, we move on Mini-aten. She dies. No other MOBs up at this point. We settle in on the 3f to wait. WD is still by DXXT waiting.

GM resolution was that BoD was running the cycle of MOBs. We had beaten WD to the spawns, and WD needed to withdraw. WD left the zone, and we went about our business waiting for the eventual AHR spawn.

THAT is the actual story of what occured. There is no embelishment and I attempted to leave out any flames. You make the decision as to who was right or wrong.. who was "cheating" or "skipping".

[EZ_kaladornus]

Where is the server drama mod when you need them?

/snore....

[EZ_UgZug]

Sorry, I was not attempting to cause drama.

There are two issues that are relevent here to ALL servers:

1) VT kill process - is it right or appropriate to kill MOBs as they spawn - or should the MOBs have to be done in order (essentially waiting for the "next" mob to pop and not moving on to kill one that is already up).

2) VT Spawn times - the fact that all mobs in VT pop at server up is an issue.

If you can extricate the server-specific details from this thread, I think it's a good discussion (albeit possibly moot).

[EZ_Spliffs7]

I'm in BoD, I agree that the situation in VT sucks. I agree that there should be instancing, our server as of last night has four PoTime guilds. Five EP guilds. Four VT guilds. Not to mention 2-3 other guilds who will be elemental or VT capable soon. There isn't enough mobs to make everyone happy, and this is a game we pay to play, everyone should be happy.


This really isn't relevant.. I just wanted to say hi to Fendryl and Hika. You used to know me as Trey when I played on TM. Good to see ya!

[EZ_Orme the Singing Bard]

3 Things:

1. If you can have a good English speaker in guild - let him/her plead your case. Not slamming anyone, but communication is a big part and you guys expressed your position poorly (and rudely).

2. Why not just rotate? People being greedy gets so old. I would much rather get 1 VT clear every 2 weeks and be able to do it in 5 hours. That's definately better than getting it every week and investing 10-15 hours to camp spawns. /gag
Just be civil and work something out.

3. If you have a force of 60 people, get out of VT. At this point in time there isn't a reason 60 people shouldn't be pushing toward PoTime.

[EZ_Wex5]

Jakle: This isnt a specific server drama (although the instant case is an example). EVERY server faces VT issues that are very similar to what is occuring between these 2 guilds.

The way VT spawns totally favors non-american guilds, sadly you need to do one of three things : a) endlessly petition SOE to do something about the manner in which VT spawns; b) Just accept it as crap and work around VT , or; c) Do what this guild did and try to force it to spawn at a time that you have a SHOT at getting VT.

Nearly every other major mob spawn in the game was randomized on server resets, not so with VT. Nearly every time VT is due to spawn on a weekend, a patch or server reset occurs preventing VT from spawning on a weekend (when american guilds have days off to get there at 8am).

Personally /kudos to BoD, I think you made a great effort to fight for what you want. Unfortunately, its very hard to take days off during the week just to play a game (as much as we would love to )

Wex

[EZ_InvisiBill]

Sony's official stance is that "camps" are a player-created courtesy and not an official policy. I say everyone should go there and duke it out. /cheer

[Jazya]

Fixed 24hour spawn timers allow timezones to monopolize content. This has been a problem for a very VERY long time in EQ.

The simplest way to fix it would be to change it to either 16 or 32 hour timers. Today the Euro's get it, Tomorrow the US folks get it and the day after that the Asians get it, or the other way around.

Randoms are a good idea too, but it's hard to schedule raids that way. If you know when the mob died, you can still plan raids without praying for a patch day or previous timezone's wipe.

The timezone-based monopolization HAS TO STOP.

[EZ_Daedrea]

Just get a rotation setup for VT. If Xev managed to do it between all the guilds who hate each other, the only working rotation on the server, you can.

[EZ_Brarr Brekstone]

I would just like to add that before we petioned a GM, we had made numerous unanswered atempts to contact the WD raid leader to resolve this on our own. Only after being completely ignored did we proceed to the next step. Anyway, after getting the VT spawn patch after patch after patch, how can you possibly be upset about losing the spawns a few times, knowing full well that next patch they are yours again? Let me also add that WD doesn't kill these spawns right away when they spawn the next week after a patch. With no one currently contesting those spawns in there time zone, they simply let them sit there for about 10 hrs then kill them to insure they spawn again in there time zone. Now I don't fault them for that, thats just playing the system. But again with all that in mind, don't be upsetwhen we actually have to work for that VT spawn. Also since WD felt compelled to post the whole conversation with GM, I will add that there Leapfrogging tatics can only be done 2 more times because the GM felt strongly enough about it to warrant a warning on all present WD involved in kill to there accounts.

I would like to think that out of 60 WD that were in that raid, that one of them knew the camp rules on VT. Why he felt he had to post here asking the rules is beyond me. Especially after a GM explained them to them. The fact that they ignored tells to solve the matter only convinces me of WD's intent, which was to leapfrog. Although there are few WD I like to grp with, the guild as a whole as been tagged with this reputation.

The only reason WD is able to kill in order is because they sit and let the whole zone pop as to keep it in there time zone for next spawn. We all know that each pops at a various time from last kill, which allows for a mob killed first last week to actually spawn second this week.

In all actuality this was a failed attempt of WD trying to sneak in the back door and take AHR, and they were punished by a GM for it. Don't let them full you with that post. They knew full well they were leapfrogging. The audacity to post that and expect sympathy amazes me. Edited by: Brarr Brekstone at: 12/5/03 12:32 pm

[EZ_Dagny Blazestorm]

Having a rotation with the asian guild that was doing VT the same time as we did kicked ass. Every other week was about all I could stand that @#%$ anyway.

[EZ_Garibaldus]

I know I'd be tickled pink if BoD and WD could work out a rotation... But so far communication lines seem to be down...

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Quote:Just get a rotation setup for VT. If Xev managed to do it between all the guilds who hate each other, the only working rotation on the server, you can.Why would any guild, Asian or otherwise, do a rotation when they are able to monopolize a great RvR zone week after week? I see 1 Asian guild did it in this thread, but let me tell you, that is not the norm. I know if the situation was reversed and my guild had the advantage in VT, we would clear it every week.

Some guilds would rather farm VT for months unending than go to PoP.

This is in Sony's hand now. But I agree with one poster here. Time zone monopolizations have to stop.

[EZ_Derrict]

Quote:Ps. Why was the GM in the group? I've never seen that before.

Gm will go into group with raid leader(s) to discuss the matter

[EZ_StevoWevo]

They need to open up the variance. Right now they just make it so they arent up at the same time basically and guilds first in force after the patch dont get to just pick and choose their targets.

Open it up, make the variance like 48 hours, even from server up...

About the VT blobs up near AHR btw, which appear to be the crux of your argument... they're not part of the cycle, you dont have to kill them... they didnt kill anything out of order. They're just easilly accessible loot mobs that there's little point of not killing unless you're low on time.

[EZ_EvildukeWD]

hmm have you check the final log part of GM talk ?

WD left is not because GM tell us to leave .

instead , he told us we have right to kill everything because there is no named up at VT now. (after BOD killed small AHR)

the reason we left is we dont want to waste time on waiting AHR pop and we need to do the POP progressing. GM told us we can back to wait AHR anytime if AHR is not pop yet.And we appreciate the spirit of BOD so we left and didnt back to wait AHR.

[EZ_Xaen Neax]

What about the last part? Its not a GM saying anything, it's two people thinking a GM said something that he didn't.

[EZ_Northerner]

Rotations on The Nameless have not really been fruitful for quite a while. There is a lot of competition (and naturally more to come) for content like VT and I frankly do not see it getting worked out anytime soon this way.

It's a shame really, I know folks in both WD and BoD and frankly they both deserve to have decent access to the content. Although written small in comparison to PoT, this type of conflict is unfortunate and will certainly only become worse as more guilds consider the emp->VT->PoP path to be of considerable value. I think it does merit some developer attention, ala PoT.

Don't be picking on Duke Evilduke Duke for his English though! It might not be perfect but it is a hell of a lot beter than most of my foreign language skills.

[EZ_poxli]

Go kill RZTW. Both guilds are most likely capable of it.

[EZ_Kabakaba1]

WD is already a elemental access guild.

[EZ_Magnamar]

errr why on earth would they make a point to do VT when they are already in the EP's sure maybe a few times right after you get EP flaged to get a little better stuff but past that it makes no sence lol. that zone sucks ass anyways.

[EZ_Aliauxi]

Quote:errr why on earth would they make a point to do VT when they are already in the EP's sure maybe a few times right after you get EP flaged to get a little better stuff but past that it makes no sence lol. that zone sucks ass anyways.

Lets say you're in the extremely rare situation where the elementals might be a bit... oh... contested.

Lets say you're also VT keyed.

Lets say VT's ready to rumble with all mobs up. In elemental, every plane has something up... and each one has a guild in it.

Lets say you're in one of those guilds that didn't have sole access to VT for months and months before PoP's arrival... and though the drops aren't "as good" as elemental, there's a crapload of them and many guildies can use them as upgrades.

You're not gonna raid tonight because "VT sucks", despite having many slot items that ARE NOT upgraded in elemental (aten mask, ring of resistance, aten ring, kelun gloves, various BPs etc etc), and despite very high loot density (this means big progress in a short time, as frustrating as VT can be to clear) you're gonna just leave a resource wasted?

Unless you were in the position of being the first or second guild in elemental, I doubt the armor from there is gonna be flowing in at massive rates. VT is a great supplement, it's one more zone to have available to raid, one more place to make some progress in.

That's why.

[EZ_Shadowmare S]

WD got rz like 1-2 days before this happend, id assume they have enough peeps missing flags that they cant really do much in ele's yet.

[EZ_Brudal]

TVK Gloves are replaced the second you get your elemental gloves or should be.

[EZ_Shadowmare S]

TVK Gloves are replaced the second you get your elemental gloves or should be

i disagree, at least for mages untill i can nuke more times during a fight without gaining agro , i dont need the extra mana pres over arms. Saves are better on a lot of VT gear too.

[EZ_Serapho]

/agree Magnamar

the best way to camp VT in full respect of the rules is to avoid the zone.
my guild is in EP, didn't waste its time with VT keys and won't, the zone suck too much and we have far better things to do in PoP than farming a future useless zone.
we much prefer ssra stuff which are much quicker to get and still interesting for some of our members

[EZ_Gyorg]

If you want to complain about your guild problems, don't do it here. We are not your guild or server message board.

[EZ_1TruKing]

"errr why on earth would they make a point to do VT when they are already in the EP's sure maybe a few times right after you get EP flaged to get a little better stuff but past that it makes no sence lol. that zone sucks ass anyways. "

Well on my server we have 3 time guilds all of whom still do elemental farming even after killing quarm. In addition to those 3 there are 4 other guilds in EP 3 of those still do VT. There are 5 guilds in VT including 2 of which are not EP flagged yet. 2 of the guilds are on us time and have a rotation worked out one guild is asian and refuses to do a rotation. My guild hasnt been allowed into the rotation because we have a time zone disadvantage and they say we have to kill aten prior to letting us in. So far we have only managed to get things that were either left up or respawned early after the asian guild killed them blob 1 and DXXT. Not all guilds are willing to do rotations and on my server there is so much competition in the elementals that several guilds have to do VT just for loot.

[EZ_Kinniku]

Isnt the kill out of sequence issue moot?

Awhile ago all warders were linked to their repective mobs and spawn together. Killing out of sequence only presents a problem to the guild that is killing out of sequence due to warder repop during clearing.

Any mobs that pop after you leave will have their warders after them and cause no problems to guilds that come later.

[EZ_Saruton]

There are rules for VT ? Allways thought its a ffa, well thats what i hear from different GMs. Well actually i hear a different version from every single GM. And isnt it that SoE doesnt recognize camps? So that would mean they dont know linked mobs either. If a guild can come up with a rotation with another guild, great for them, otherwise its a ffa imho.

[EZ_Xaen]

Usually been 'First guild to aquire proper numbers gets the first shot.' .. If two guilds show up, usually the first raid force with actual numbers will gain the rights to kill whatever first. Second force gets to sit around waiting for the first guild to either win, leave, or fail. Rushing past them usually ends up with warnings depending on the mood of the GM.

[EZ_Mayliu]

Fact of the matter is there was another late night/early morning patch last night with more to come over the next month or so as they patch and re-patch and re-patch. Guess which time zone is going to have the advantage and will be able to clear the most fruitful of VT mobs each and every time practically? You guessed it, not the American time zones. If anyone else doesn't see the fact that the same guild will get around 25 or so pieces of kick butt loot each time a patch happens as a problem.....then /boggle. I don't get why VT seems to be one of the only zones that fully spawns on server ups and why SOE doesn't seem to think that's an issue is beyond me.

[EZ_ilnati]

We had a guide on RN tell us that "he who kills Blob 1 owns the cycle." Your guild leaves VT after killing Blob 1, its a FFA for the most part (unless you have a guild clearing to say DXX and some other guild that has a CoH mage up in the Tower pops into the zone and starts CoHing there, a/k/a "leapfrogging").

[EZ_LenineEQ]

stop crying about timezones it gets old

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

It only gets old to those unaffected by it. For those who this affects negatively, that is what gets old.

[EZ_Loninn]

I'm in a US guild (50 members mostly working adults) and we have no problems at all locking down VT from Asian time zone guilds as well as other US guilds. We were getting beat out on every patch only sometimes being able to pick it up on a respawn for our first month or so until we put forth some serious dedication. Now we've monolopized it every spawn only losing it a couple times in the last 3 months. Even on the times we've lost it we still got at least a clearing if not 2 that week. We love patches and crashes =)

[EZ_LenineEQ]

Im curious, why are the majority of top guilds American?


Did they get there by slacking off and complaining about timezones?

Server drama & timezone drama is really old... its been going on and on since the beginning of POP. Yes Asians get some advantage IE vt, but do you think the majority of Elemental pops are up then? Do you think Ssra is always up then? etc etc...

[EZ_Arakasi Nightblade]

Quote:Im curious, why are the majority of top guilds American?

Probably because the vast majority of EQ players are american, there are easily more american guilds on any given server than not, EQ is an american based game...

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

Did they get there by slacking off and complaining about timezones?

No, they got there by being essentially slaves to the game. Instancing removes that requirement and also removes all possible timezone drama to boot.

-- Hika

P.S.: Hi Trey!

[EZ_Chabasrn]

Nameless server = koreans/TW

Fun stuff

[EZ_Derrict]

supposedly on Test, VT is now randomized. All warders spawn on reset, 0-24 hour variable for name spawn. Need a Test server rogue to confirm this, though.

Oh, if you hadn't figured it out, Nameless has a high Asian population, higher than the other servers.

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Quote:Server drama & timezone drama is really old... its been going on and on since the beginning of POP.And guess what came out of "timezone drama" in PoP? It got fixed.

Quote:Yes Asians get some advantage IE vt, but do you think the majority of Elemental pops are up then? Do you think Ssra is always up then? etc etc...This thread is specifically talking about VT, not EP or Ssra. VT is a problem right now. Why should any 1 timezone get an advantage in 1 zone? There's no good reason for it.

I would welcome the new changes to VT that are supposedly on test right now. What's fair is fair. Edited by: Sensei Kadd at: 12/10/03 8:16 am

[EZ_Fendryl Istalindir]

Randomizing spawn times isn't "fair"

All randomizing spawn times does is move the advantage from time-zones to free-time. No longer is it "who's not at work/asleep" it's "who's willing to sit on their ass for X hours waiting for a spawn"

Instancing is the only "fair" solution, every guild gets their own version of VT, Ssra, PoP, etc - once a week. No one removes anyone elses opportunity for content, there's no timezone advantage, there's no freetime advantage, the difficulty of the encounter - is the encounter, as it's intended to be in a PvE situation. If you want the difficulty of an encounter to also include competition with other players, play on a PvP server & quit trying to force indirect unconsentual PvP on people who don't care for it.

PS - /rude Trey =)

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Contested spawns have been this way since EQ started. Contesting a spawn is hardly PvPing.

Right now, the only way that my guild has a chance at VT on patch days is if the Euro guild wipes in VT. Yes, instancing would be the "fairest" way to do things. But randomizing is the next best thing and trust me it will be very welcome by American guilds in VT. Edited by: Sensei Kadd at: 12/10/03 10:56 am

[EZ_Arakasi Nightblade]

Instancing these old zones will most likely never happen. However, the practical solution would be to semi-randomize the spawn times. What I mean when I say that is that you could have a several set spawn times (like 5 or 6 different ones), each favoring a different time zone and then random for which one it picks. Either that or just fully randomize it like Ssra, etc. as that seems to be the popular solution anyway.

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

Contesting a spawn is hardly PvPing.

How is it not? In fact, contesting a spawn is PvPing in an exploitive manner whereby you can't respawn by removing the offenders from the zone via combat.

PvP is just that: pitting player against player. It in no way has to involve pitting your character against another character in a virtual duel to the death. EQ was envisaged as a PvE game -- where the players pit themselves against the virtual environment.

If I wanted PvP, I'd play on the Zeks and kill anyone who got in the way of my spawns, or die trying. That sort of action and player conflict belongs on a PvP server, because such servers permit a direct recourse.

On a PvE server you can't stop another guild from engaging the same NPC you are let alone keep them out of a zone. Every attempt to mitigate this, including spawn randomization, is a hack and band-aid fix that is repairable with a bit of forethought, a developer who can write a sensible design document, and who then codes the zone definition, export, and state saving tools, and couples them to long duration zone instances.

They even have the rudimentary beginnings of this with some of the instancing technology from LDoN coupled to the state saving of Plane of Time.

[EZ_Callius maximus]

if they instanced VT they would ahve to reduce drops to say 1 per mob to make ammount of loot into the game balanced, instacing isnt the answer everywhere because it increase the ammount of drops into the game massively, which in the end would create huge mudflation.
Pop 3day repop made a huge difference to allowing multiple guild fight for content, unfortunately not blancing out the 4 elemental planes made it so who got fire got equiped faster aka asian euro guilds. But ep spawntimer are reasonable. Take last patch on bert 50% of fire minis didnt repop till over 12 hrs after the patch and were up the next day. What they needed to do what make all 4 ele planes approx equal on time vs reward where as at the moment fire is a joke, with howmany molds you can get on full respawn with time invested.

Guilds should have to choose were they spend the time, FULL instancing just makes EQ more or a farming session, lets guild make a choice how they equip folks, but make it fair.

[EZ_labiara]

I haven't read all responses yet, but I saw this and had to comment:

Quote:Simplest VT rule: Whoever gets Blob 1 down, gets the zone.

You might think so! But a few weeks ago, we had a server reset, and a rival guild moved in to VT. They killed blob1 and then proceeded to sit in his room, without moving or clearing, for what they say is 3 hours but I say is closer to 5. Anyway, after this extended amount of time, we came to VT and COTH'd around them. A GM showed up, and offered these wonderful tidbits:

[Fri Dec 05 20:03:03 2003] Daleynn tells you, 'They are already in zone and working towards the mobs - you are close to zone in or were = the event is theres this time - I am going to speak to them about the length of time - but as of right now it is theirs'
[Fri Dec 05 20:03:32 2003] You told Daleynn, 'i will respect your choice, but it is absolutely unfair that they can "hold a spawn" by doing nothing for 6 hours'
[Fri Dec 05 20:04:05 2003] Daleynn tells you, 'again I will speak with them on that.'

[Fri Dec 05 20:05:28 2003] You told Daleynn, 'so just so i can get this on record, it is GM approved to block content by killing a trigger mob and then doing nothing for 6 hours?'
[Fri Dec 05 20:06:04 2003] Daleynn tells you, 'They are in and fighting now, you were still moving when I arrived - there fore I am giving it to them - under the same considerations I gave your guild last time. '

GMs being what they are on our server, this person completely missed my point about content blocking via inactivity.

Something that I am curious about: I was always (before we started going there anyway) under the impression that VT is one of those "GM hands off" zones. Yeah, totally not at all.

VT is a hell hole in all respects - keys, clearing, idiotic boss fights, stupid setup for competition... blech.

[EZ_Hika Mindsong]

instacing isnt the answer everywhere because it increase the ammount of drops into the game massively, which in the end would create huge mudflation.

That's only true if you don't carry instancing forward to it's logical conclusion and instance everything, or at least, raid zones.

The 'mudflation' only seems to be an issue if you have someone competing for your content. If its instanced, it only applies relative to the content and not other players, and thus is manageable. In other words, it isn't a big deal if some guild behind you is filling up on VT gear; they're not going to be using it to steal your spawns.

Mind you, I don't necessarily disagree with you that drop rates may have to be modified, but it's not as major an issue as it is if you instanced a couple of key zones but left everything else uninstanced. It's simply a tunable variable. If you drop an instance on VT in a vaccuum, then yes, there will be more VT gear that will then enter a competitive arena, which doesn't make much sense.

Guilds should have to choose were they spend the time, FULL instancing just makes EQ more or a farming session,

EQ is just a farming session with or without instancing. That's the whole point of the game: defeat the content, get the reward. It's entertainment, nothing deep and profound.
Instancing does exactly what you want: it makes it fair.

In fact, it makes it 'more fair' in that instances can scale to the approximate power level of the force you bring into them, or can be 'dialed' similar in concept to LDoN where you can pick the risk level you're comfortable with, along with associated decrease or increase in reward potential. (tongueincheek)Provided the content designers actually balance the encounters appropriately(/tongueincheek).

The main downside that I can see, is that more people will be 'uber' than currently (mind you, these people will all have to earn their way there, or at least find leet spoilerz). This impacts the ego of those who work the 'hardest' or 'fastest' and who feel they should be recognized; what needs to be done there is a way of rewarding various styles of play, that don't necessarily increase the power of your character, but instead grant that recognition somehow. First to clear zone gamewide, serverwide. Fastest clear, least number of characters-clear.

Fancy badges for your armor for being the 'best', rather than simply locking down content. Titles. Houses. Glamour.

Make the game into a true challenge to beat the content and use those as a measuring stick against each other rather than racing the guy with the ShowEQ bot tracking nameds against the clock.


Personally I think the bigger challenge in implementing proper instancing is balancing public play areas with instances, so players can get to know each other. In terms of raid zones, public instances can be used by guilds who want to race each other. It remains to be seen how much racing would occur if you actually had instantiated raid content along with a public respawning instance though.

[EZ_Tambina]

I keep hearing the people here complain about how different time zones have an advantage when there are patches. In my opinion you all should keep in mind that those same people are the ones who lose actual play time by the patch. I pay the same money as everyone else but the patch is usually on my weekend in the middle of my play time. That should be compensated for somewhere.

[EZ_Tearl]

VT changed on test, it wont be an instant pop after server downage now, warders will be up at server up and nameds will spawn as a bunch 1-24 hours afterwards. Then repop as normal -/+ 15%.

[EZ_Marcalo DeUnero]

Quote:That should be compensated for somewhere.
I haven't played on the servers so I do'nt know more than what Sony stated, but there are servers for non-american time zones that have patches more suited for your play times. That was their compensation.
If you didn't movelog to a server designed for your timezone I can't see any reason to complain unless the other servers aren't as good.

[EZ_SSARedChief]

Quote:I haven't played on the servers so I do'nt know more than what Sony stated, but there are servers for non-american time zones that have patches more suited for your play times. That was their compensation. If you didn't movelog to a server designed for your timezone I can't see any reason to complain unless the other servers aren't as good.

So, what server is designed for a PST raider who can only log on after 7 or 8 pm pst?

None.

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

Hikka, if you define PvP as having to race and compete with another guild for spawns, then you have an extremly loose definition of PvP. PvP to me, and most of the EQ community, is players directly killing another player, period. Competition is different than directly attacking and killing other players.

Hijack off.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Hika endless content is boring. I was in a guild that because of just the bounces had almost an uncontested run at most of velious and the server couldnt stay up for more then 3 days for weeks.

We killed yeli,lendi,WW dragons and ntov so many times in a row~ We would get done with em then the server would crash. We never had to put any thought into what other people were doing cause nobody was interested and when someone did get into NToV we would just get it when the server crashed and we were tired so it was no stress.


Now contrast this to SSra where we actually have to give a little thought to what other people are doing. Thats alot more interesting. SSras competition doesnt have the endless work feel that gearing up on a velious on a server that couldnt stay up for 3 days before repopping everything.

One thing that comes with getting a spawn whenever you want it is it starts to feel like work instead of a prize.

The point is that when people work against you in the prosuit of working for themselves they inadvertently become a complicated and rich game element.

The designers of any game could never simulate that game element. So instances every zone just throws out something they could never get back.

Nobody likes the races where your training each other. FLASH. thats why my guild doesnt get involved with em~. I usually push for: they in the zone and want it? Cool lets do something else.

But I do like knowing that if we dilly or just leave something lie or in general dont work efficiently then we are going to loose something. Cause that adds a deeper meaning to uber.

You argued mudflating gear is irrelevent if you dont compete directly. I argue that gear is just irrelevent with everything instanced. Sure you can progress but is it going to have a rich enough meaning it doesnt impact the entire server?

Its really that subtle game element of indirect but mutually influencing competition via monopolizing spawns that really drives the feeling of accomplishment with getting better gear at the upper reaches of the game.
to be blunt:
Gear means less people per an encounter which means you loose less spawns.

If you dont loose spawns irregardless of gear then it has to be less meaningful.

Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 12/13/03 12:07 pm

[EZ_Larenae]

Well said Qutsemnie.

There are 2 things that are more fun in EQ than anything else to me.

1) is the thrill of the kill on taking something down that you have no business taking down.

2) doing so by moving faster, smarter, and more quickly than your competition.

Competition is what gets the blood flowing and makes everything exciting.

[EZ_Qeni]

>>You might think so! But a few weeks ago, we had a server reset, and a rival guild moved in to VT. They killed blob1 and then proceeded to sit in his room, without moving or clearing, for what they say is 3 hours but I say is closer to 5. Anyway, after this extended amount of time, we came to VT and COTH'd around them. A GM showed up, and offered these wonderful tidbits:
<<

Althought server drama sure isn't needed here because theres plenty of it already -- you really should tell the whole story.

The week prior to this we coth'd in behind your guild and didn't interfere with your killing blob 1 or anything, and actually tried to work out an agreement to share VT (after all it is setup to support multiple guilds). You guys would have none of it, and we were asked to leave by the gm-which we did, without starting crap about it on webboards saying things like "Join us next week when we announce what gimp guild tries to roll over us in VT this time."

You know just as well as I do my guild certainly has no focus on VT so I don't know why such a big deal got made out of it anyway, but if you can't handle this little bit of competition for VT, your surely not gonna like the compeittion with like the 10+ elemental guilds our server has now.

[EZ_labiara]

I didn't name any names - I'm not concerned with your guild does or what has happened in the past. I mentioned the incident to highlight GM inconsistancy and lack of knowledge.

[EZ_MicahleWulfsoule]

Quote:The way VT spawns totally favors non-american guilds,

Luclin spawns on server up suck.

I'm in an Aussie guild, so they patch at 8pm-10pm (depends on wat time of year) which means midnite/2am for a short patch and 2am/4am for the longer 6 hour ones.

Along come the Asians, splat splat splat. Euro's then get their leftovers, American guild then get anything that's left over from that / late to spawn.. and leaves Aussies with... nothing I see it every week and every patch, quit whining and take wat u can get

[EZ_Axian OoP]

uggh.... my 3rd grade grammar teacher is rollomg over in her grave after reading the opening post. wow

[EZ_Flabbo]

Quote:uggh.... my 3rd grade grammar teacher is rollomg over in her grave after reading the opening post. wow

So how good is your Japanese/Chinese etc?

[EZ_Legna ValSharess]

-----------
uggh.... my 3rd grade grammar teacher is rollomg over in her grave after reading the opening post. wow
-----------

How about your 3rd grade spelling teacher?

I am also somewhat guessing here that, unlike the original poster, you are in an english speaking country.

Anyhow, the conversation is on VT, and the inconsistancy GMs show there. Not about how well a non english speaking person does in a second language.

*EDIT* fixed grammar

-L Edited by: Legna ValSharess at: 12/19/03 3:12 pm

[EZ_Sensei Kadd]

VT still spawning on server up after the patch.

[EZ_Dinadaan DeDenaan]

"GMs being what they are on our server, this person completely missed my point about content blocking via inactivity."

He didnt miss it, he ignored it. It was simply combative. He stated his position, which was reasonable given the constraints they work under, and you tried to bait him.

[EZ_chaossmf]

"At first we are very superised there is one guild named brothers of darkness which can hold on VT more than 12 hours in order to wait the named spawn one by one. They wait for any named pop , COH to kill it then keep wait it. But it break the camp rule make by GM before : you have to kill VT named in sequence (And there is no bug nowafter the VT patched the warders problem, or BOD cant do any mob ). So we talk with GM that day for asking the camp rule in VT now.Because My guild's target is VT too, and they raid time over to our timezone. So we talk with GM about this question.Any way we left the VT to BOD because we dont want to waste time for waiting mob pop.But the VT camp rule still need to figure out:"

What does that all say???? Huh, About halfway through I swear he said "Toaster cheese car dog lawnchair spooge flop." Those words, they just don't go together. Alone, each word makes perfect sense. I know what they mean, I know what they are. I could even use them if I felt the desire. But put together, and all I can say is ...

to answer your question:
"Five times garbage licked hamster. Answering machine, ashtray, of two board. nine splooge and sponge equals chipmunk"

hope it helps

[EZ_chaossmf]

Previous post is supposed to include a disclaimer at the bottom saying:

"Not a flame ... I know not everyone is from English speaking countries ... no one get your panties in a bunch ... post is meant as a joke only ... thank you"

But it didn't seem to post with it, and since it won't let me edit posts, ya get another post