Want to know why rogues mainhand a 17/24 over a 16/21?

[EZ_A Mammal]

I see alot of Rogues mainhanding Talon and offhanding Shank. I just wonder why is that? Are the backstabs that good to make up for the dps? Granted I'm just a cleric with a 64 rogue twink so I might be missin something else. Also sorry if I posted this in the wrong place!

www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=726998

Maybe someone can tell me if I should get a talon or not as well, been thinkin about it for a while. Edited by: A Mammal at: 11/27/03 8:25 am

[EZ_TaiilChayser]

Its been proven that when your ATK rating gets over 1500 that the Gargoyle Talon will outdamage the Shank. That and alot of people dont like the idea of the Shank's DoT screwing up a mez or escape.

For me knowing that the DoT wont interfere with anything is enough for me to use the Talon over the Shank in most situations. Ghoste Blanc
65 Barbarian Assassin of Phoenix Ascendant
The Seventh Hammer

[EZ_Mr Banderas]

"Its been proven that when your ATK rating gets over 1500 that the Gargoyle Talon will outdamage the Shank. "

Que que? Proven where?

Shank will always slightly outdamage the GT, however some don't like the DoT, as the poster above stated.

[EZ_Tholin]

I mainhand Shank and have never had a problem w/ it messing up escape.....Usually when u know its gonna be a wipe...The DoT has been going for a bit already....It lasts for 1 Min....so just run around until you see the effect is wore off and just pop escape....Thats what I do.

[EZ_Lindianae]

The difference between the 2 is very slight less than 5dps. I would rather give up a little dps, that really won't affect the outcome of any fight, than have the problem that the dot causes. I have bagged the shank and probably it will never see the light of day.

[EZ_Northerner]

To be honest, I passed on the Shank because of the DoT. It *should* be more dps in fights where the DoT lands (which are few) and might even be about the same without.

Whatever though, it is really quibbling comparing the two in dps. To a non-Rogue this might not be completely clear though as the general rule of faster Mainhand with better ratio is not true. For Rogues Backstab accounts for a substantial portion of total damage and is unlinked to delay (backstab refreshes based on the haste to a minimum, regardless of the weapon used). Given that a weapon that might not be so good for a bard/warrior/knight etc can be quite good for a Rogue. The WS is another solid choice though and although I personally avoid it due to the proc, I can see where others might maintain that it rarely interferes. In a raid where it might matter it would be unusual for it stick during a crucial period perhaps.

The GT is a pretty poor weapon at 17/24 for most classes (although moot). That same weapon though is quite equivalent for a Rogue to a 16/21 though. It's biggest downfall is that it scales horribly. It is not something you can move to your offhand as upgrades become available.

The 1.5k attack thing is basically a rule of thumb and certainly not something set in stone. In LDoN one might use a certain setup and in Luclin it would be another. Setting a guidline is all nice but stating that it is proven to be better above that line might well misslead. From my own parsings, it always outperformed a 15/20 (even in Luclin) and vastly out performed when attack was in the 1700-2000 range. I would consider 1500 to be a nice cutoff but I never did see a big delimiter in my parses. Celeris Tujimson
Maurading Deceiver of The Nameless

Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.
William Goldman, "The Princess Bride"

[EZ_Quell Zent]

You really have to see hundreds of parsings before you get a good feel. Your ATK relative to the AC of the opponent really tends to shift importance of pure ratio vs. bigger BS. The WS may 1 day find it's way into my bag for its ability to generate agro when I want it.

There is of course the "eyecandy" value of GT for crits. 1204 max non disc crit

[EZ_Peon25]

Before clicking this threadI had a direct answer for you... the Shank has a DoT (17 damage per tick for 10 ticks, whoopdeedo) and kills Escape ability. The DoT counts out to 2-3 dps after a good parse.. that's nothing worth getting excieted about.

Two other answeres could be (a) Talon has more hitpoints, and (b) higher crits/backstabs.
Those 2 answers are brought too you without any parsing/calculations, including a 1500+ attack thing where the Talon seems to come out ahead.
Exarch Fenthen Jus'taceio - Xegony
Marauder Lomorte Twilight - Stromm

[EZ_Jegred Aleval]

When I look at the stats I fail to see why the Tallon has more hp, just to begin with )

Imho the Tallon will never outdamage the shank, shank will win under any circumstances, only valid decision would be the dot, and I never ever had a problem with it and I'm using it now for.... ah cant count it anymore. Cleeves

[Yalum]

Someone posted a parse a week or two ago that showed the shank behind the talon by about 1%, and that was without atk buffs (probably a low ac mob).

Really, the only thing the shank has going for it is that it is somewhat easier to get.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

Yalum most pases posted anywhere have a good 5% margin of error to them. Everything indicate that shank outdamages the talon in any setting.

Here is the analysis why:
1. The talon has 6.25% more damage, given that there is a minimal backstab, there is no wahy it wil increase your backstab damage by more than 6.25%
2. the talon has a 7.04% worse ratio than ths shank, given that it is also slower, it will do at least 7% less man hand damage.

If changing from shank to talon shoudl give a damage increase, then using the shank, your total backstab damage should be significant higher than total main hand damage, which is not the case.

People use the talon over the shank for 3 reasons.

A. The are under the impression that it does better damage.
B. The Dot on shank get in the way at times.
C. High backstab crits are flashy. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_Underdawg DaRogue]

the things you just said are not based on tests or on real situations. they are an atttempt to make ratios represent backstab numbers which isnt the way things work. there are more variables then that. such as atk.

[EZ_Nefarious Method]

Ishwar2,

I disagree. I have most offensive AA, 65 rogue main handing GT. I consistently score 43% of all damage coming from backstab. I see max GT backstabs often with 1450ish ATK which is very easy to achieve even in xp groups.

In short, I think you are very much underestimating the affect higher damage has on a mainhand piercer.

Quote:If changing from shank to talon shoudl give a damage increase, then using the shank, your total backstab damage should be significant higher than total main hand damage, which is not the case.

For this statement to be true the wicked shank would have to be perfectly 50% backstab damage 50% piercing MAINhand damage which it is not. Niether is it 50/50 backstab/piercing. I parse out around 43% backstab damage with GT so I know WS is less backstab percentage. Even then the appropriate comparison would be backstab + total piercing damage (total damage).

Although I have not parsed the Wicked Shank against the GT I've parsed the GT against the Trueborn (mainhand) and it came out way ahead, like 15-25 DPS more. My gut feeling is that that the GT and WS are extremely close in damage and that when raid buffed (Fero, FA, SoP/SoT) the GT wins. Raid buffed I will average about 160-180 DPS with Trueborn in offhand. Xp groups I can get to 200 DPS. This is parsing in BoT (all wings) with EQCompanion grouped with bard, ranger, chanter.

ALSO

1) The GT will not break Escape (Imo, hands down one of the best rogue AA)

2) The GT only gets better with equipment upgrades (more ATK)

This is why I passed on the WS recently. I will put up some BoT parses with GT/Trueborn + 31% haste if someone can put up a WS/Trueborn with same haste.

[EZ_Legna ValSharess]

Because the WS looks crappy, and the GT looks nice?

How about that one? No one seemed to comment on how horrible that shank looks.

I will likely get one of the two in the somewhat near future. And I will take whichever I can get more than happily, as either will be enough to finally stop mainhanding my rage. But I would much prefer the GT over the WS. Because it looks better to me, and really, that ends up being the only real reason worth mentioning.

-L
Legna
60 Shadows
Forbidden Legacy
Rallos Zek
----------
Moonflower
Power Puff Girl of
50 Circles
Guinivere

[EZ_Nykor]

Pffft looks nice...


I would main hand a big brown turd if the stats were right.

[EZ_Cybelle]

*nods in agreement with Nykor*

The graphic an item has really is a poor excuse to choose one item over another (when otherwise the items are significantly different), unless you are a non-raiding, friends group only, player...

The others in your group don't give a damn whether your dagger looks nice or not, as long as you're putting out the most damage you can, given your achievements.

Honestly, if I let looks guide my weapon choices, I wouldn't be offhanding Ifir...I think it's ugly in comparison to a Gargoyle Talon... But I'd be dumb to not have bagged the GT for Ifir... And I'm sure my guildies would have second thoughts about taking me anywhere, having displayed such a poor choice...

[Yalum]

We're not talking about passing on ornate because you love the plate look of your woven shadow. The difference between the WS and the GT is negligible, who cares how insignificant your reasons for chosing one or the other are?

[EZ_Cybelle]

*negligible* difference is purely dependent on length of time...

Even 15dps is over 15k damage on an average pop or luclin boss fight...minimum... That's not negligible...I've seen quarm wipe a raid at 0% health... that 15dps wouldn't have been "negligible" then. Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/1/03 3:53 pm

[EZ_Arakasi Nightblade]

Quote:I would main hand a big brown turd if the stats were right.

Great, that's just what we need. Go ahead and let SOE know that we're all content with the next generation of decent daggers looking like Tendonslicers :">

Quote:Even 15dps is over 15k damage on an average pop or luclin boss fight...minimum... That's not negligible...I've seen quarm wipe a raid at 0% health... that 15dps wouldn't have been "negligible" then.

On your average Luclin boss fight, though, Escape can make a huge difference.

If the choice was given to my guild on whether they wanted me to do 15 more DPS or have the ability to never blow an escape, I'm sure I know which direction my guild would lean. Besides, if we're cutting it that close to where my 15 extra DPS makes the difference between succeeding and wiping then a little bit more needs to be looked into than just rogue mainhand weapon choices. Veteran Arakasi Nightblade
Deceiver - Tunare
Gale of Destruction

[EZ_Cybelle]

Quote:If the choice was given to my guild on whether they wanted me to do 15 more DPS or have the ability to never blow an escape, I'm sure I know which direction my guild would lean.

Nono...that's not where the difference of opinion lied... It was in basing the choice on the graphics (looks) of an item. Yeah, I didn't use the shank at all...I let it go to a few people every time it dropped. I didn't want my ability to burn escape and drag corpses when things got ugly to go out the window with a stinkin' weapon proc like that.

My remarks were all referring to basing choice on looks instead of things that are important...Hence my original remark that basing choice on looks is fine if, basically, no one is counting on you to be at your best that you're capable of...

[EZ_Arakasi Nightblade]

As far as daggers go, I assume, for most, that it's a different story, but I, for one, make many decisions based upon appearance for gear upgrades, primarily when concerned with helm upgrades with graphics, etc. Veteran Arakasi Nightblade
Deceiver - Tunare
Gale of Destruction

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:Its been proven that when your ATK rating gets over 1500 that the Gargoyle Talon will outdamage the Shank

Actually no it hasn't. To even think that you could 'prove' something like that is laughable to start with.

In answer to the original post - gargoyle talon is a good mainhand and awful offhand, shank is a good mainhand and good offhand. That's why you see people using talon/shank instead of shank/talon.

[EZ_Cybelle]

Finally, a clear answer. lol

Personally, I wouldn't know. Never owned the shank. I went from gt/rb to mmdart/gb and up from there...

[EZ_Northerner]

Quote:Yalum most pases posted anywhere have a good 5% margin of error to them. Everything indicate that shank outdamages the talon in any setting.

Here is the analysis why:
1. The talon has 6.25% more damage, given that there is a minimal backstab, there is no wahy it wil increase your backstab damage by more than 6.25%
2. the talon has a 7.04% worse ratio than ths shank, given that it is also slower, it will do at least 7% less man hand damage.

If changing from shank to talon shoudl give a damage increase, then using the shank, your total backstab damage should be significant higher than total main hand damage, which is not the case.

People use the talon over the shank for 3 reasons.

A. The are under the impression that it does better damage.
B. The Dot on shank get in the way at times.
C. High backstab crits are flashy.

Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

First off, this probably should get moved to the Training Studio along with the other threads on the matter. Still, you are quite correct in what you have said but there are a number of factors you may be missing (or indeed there may not be).

Foremost, we simply do not know everything about the combat engine. We parse away and find out how we think it works and even seem to back up a variety of things that are sensible. Now and again though, we do forget bits and pieces and these come out in the parses. I'm certainly not sure that this is the case with the WS v GT but it *could* be and I'd be hesitant to dismiss the possibility (although as I've said, it is a trivial slant in either direction regardless). Things like front-loading damage and post-evade re-synching of delays have small but possibly noticeable effects on weapons' performances also.

Yeah, I am nitpicking hard now but I would hesistate to write into stone that Rogues only would choose the GT for the three reasons listed. Naturally, I do use it for reason C myself though.

[EZ_AsturiasAurora]

I am glad to have gotten my Gargoyle Talon and having used it and seen the common eye-candy backstabs, I don't have any need at all for a Wicked Shank, regardless of how the number-crunchers here seem to think the Shank is 5-7% more dps. Look at those numbers folks....5% really isn't all that much. If your ATK is high enough, the Talon will consistently perform pretty dazzling backstabs. Not to say the Shank wuldn't do the same (albeit about 15 points less or so on max non-disc backstabs and crits). Again though, it's not really much of a difference. I like my 1203 crit backstabs, thank you~

The only difference between the two is really just a Vanity issue for the common Rogue. Talon looks better and isn't nearly as commonplace as that easily-recognizable-from-500-feet Wicked Shank.

So why choose one or the other? Frankly, I don't like the idea of having a DoT on a weapon. Leave the aggro from those things to the Shammies and their epic, or Druids and their leafblowers. Now if the Shank had just a plain ol' DD, I probably would look into getting one. Escape took way too many aa points to get and it already has too long a reuse timer -- why chance at messing it up just for 5% dps?

Guess that's just me though.

I don't crunch numbers....I just stab things and watch them die...
Click the pic for my Magelo


~"Classes are not that out of balance"--AbsorEQ~

[EZ_Ishwar2]

You can prove things in everquest just like you prove anything in the real world. In realiti you cannot prove anything, in the mathematical sence of the word, but you can definatly conduct experiments, that will enforce the notion that whatever model you have of the world seems to be correct.

But no parsing of these weapons in any setting has even com close to proving the difference with statistcal significance. So nothing has been proved yet. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[Elerion]

At least I'm happy Ish isn't using Shank and screwing up my mezzes if a switch has to be called on a raid

[EZ_Ishwar2]

Well elerion i guess you are not mezzing or not paying attention I do indeed wield a wicked shank... Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_Rasspotari]

both those daggers should add 1 or 2 to delay or something.

17 25 and 16 22 plz !

putting a drop of cursed in place with a creben mob drop is disgusting. having khal back then was kewl, now its just barely better then some pickup raid killed mob which every other guy plus his grandmother has a dagger from now.
and the dot. hah .. it should last longer and also be on the damn talon !

[Elerion]

Okay Ish, you got me, I don't really mez


As for Rass... wtf? First of all itemization is what has screwed rogues over the last two years. Second, mudflation does happen with every expansion, deal with it. Third, who the heck wants the dot to last LONGER? Short duration, high damage/tick dots aren't much of a headache, long duration, low damage/tick dots screw up sooo much more.

[EZ_ThePerfectFlaw]

Wicked shank is the windblade of rogue weapons. 8(
-Zehn
The Perfect Flaw - home of The Perfect Perspective and Perfect Comic, now with forums!
-"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)"

[EZ_Derrict]

Quote:Actually no it hasn't. To even think that you could 'prove' something like that is laughable to start with.

If I bothered to do a BoT tower raid and get these weapons, 3 hours and I could easily post a parse within 3% margin of error. Both parse within fairly close with each other that the point of debating isn't really worth the effort. Most go GT in main to just avoid the WS dot proc. Derrict Thealcoholic - Nameless Server

[EZ_Cybelle]

True, but in the same 3 hours, given ample opportunity and access to everything, you could also, I'm sure, supply parses that fall OUTSIDE the margin range, both high and low. I think that's the whole point... Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/2/03 5:39 pm

[EZ_Derrict]

over 3 hours of parsing, the margin of error would be small enough from the amount of hits that there's little chance of having results out of the confidence interval range.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

I ran soem simulations on the effects of double attack ant hit rates, I would say you have more like a 5% margin of error on a 3 hour parse. This is specific to rogues because backstabs have a large contribution, and only goes of once per 5 seconds (at 100% haste). It also depends on what you mean by margin of error, standart diviation is only around 1.5%, but I always consider 3*SD as margin of error.

And given that you are trying to show a difference of only around 2%, you would want a margin of error of half that. Even assumning you have a 3% margin of error on a 3 hour parse, you still need to improve that by a factor of 3, and since margin of erroe goes down with the square root of the sample sice, you want around 9 times the data, or 27 hours of parsing each weapon under identical conditions. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith Edited by: Ishwar2 at: 12/3/03 2:09 am

[EZ_Northerner]

/nod Derrict.

Believe it or not folks, people can and do parse things with actual statistical accuracy on a pretty regular basis. I don't know that I recall an actual workup of the two weapons for comparison but it certainly could be done for the folks that want it. Heck, if anyone with both weapons wants to give me two or three hours of data from a parsable Mob I'll do it myself.

Of course that would still only show performance for a given target in ideal situations but this isn't exactly something for publication. The downside is it would naturally lose coherance in terms of actual performance due to the nature of parsing on a static mob as apposed to "real combat" situations. In the end though, I think we can all agree that it is pretty much a toss up at this point and move on with our lives.

[EZ_Derrict]

1 divided the square root of the same size is your margin of error (or confidence interval).

Let's say I have 10,000 hits. Margin of error = 1%. You're telling me a 1% margin error isn't significant enough for you even though 5% is the standard accepted range in pretty much any statistical poll / parse / whatever? Even with 5000 hits, it's a 1.4% margin of error. Generally when I parse, I only want a parse size of 2000, which is good for a 2.2% margin of error.

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:If I bothered to do a BoT tower raid and get these weapons, 3 hours and I could easily post a parse within 3% margin of error.

I was referring to the entire statement. To 'prove' that with 1500 atk the gargoyle talon is superior to a shank is a ludicrous thing to even attempt because damage is relative to atk vs mob ac not just atk.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

The confidence level accepted in statistical polls, and the confidence level required to prove anything in a more scientific sence are quite different. Using a 95% confidence level you could easily 'prove' that a d20 never rolls a 1. Even using a 99.9% confidence level I bet I can statically 'prove' that you never win the lottery. Statistics are decieving!

In a 3 hour parse you may have 10000 hits, but you have only 2000 backstabs. Since this is very large contribution this is the number you need to base you margin of error on. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_Keroth T]

The thing that kills me the most is seeing posts that say "I passed on that nasty Wicked Shank because i don't want the aggro from the dot, or having my escape hosed"

I haven been mainhanding Wicked Shank for well over 3 months now, and I can say with 100% honesty, that I have never had any aggro problems due to this weapon.

I have had my escape broken maybe 3 or 4 times, and i'd say 3 out of 4 of those times, I still managed to zone without getting killed, then zone back in and proceed to drag all the corpses to a safe location for rezzing.

Not to mention that quite often my role as CR whore is taken over by an attending necro, who can quite easily drag corpses into a pile and EE rez a cleric in many raid situations. [face=masalreg]Marauder Keroth Wru[/font]

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

indeed there is no noticable agro from the wicked shanks dot. I mean none. I cant recall the mob ever turning to me after a proc. Its prolly not more then straight damage agro.

as for escape. Its not a huge problem whether its worth 2 to 3% dps to gain escape is not my decision. Thats yours.
I usually go for the dps and let the devil(circumstances) sort out my escape

[EZ_ilnati]

Quote:The GT is a pretty poor weapon at 17/24 for most classes (although moot). . . . It's biggest downfall is that it scales horribly. It is not something you can move to your offhand as upgrades become available.

Ok, so you parser guys help me out here.

As between Kalshazzar and GT, I'm assuming Kalsh goes in the main hand.

As between a 15/20 piercer (e.g., MHT) and the GT, which goes in the offhand? The MHT because its delay is closer to Kalsh? (I have heard that you have a better chance at dual wielding where your two weapons have similar delay).

[EZ_A Mammal]

Well I get the general idea now why rogues mainhand a 17/24 over the 16/21. I guess some dont want to blow escape, or they like the looks, or feel it generates to much agro. For me personally I'm not going to grab 5 people and go kill another tower boss just for my twink to get a talon. This did answer alot of questions for me tho while pickup grouping in BoT I can see why rogues use the talon over the shank. While looks aren't everything I must agree that the talon looks 100x better than the shank. The dot bothers me but not enough to try to get a talon, and since everyone thinks the talon is a pretty crappy offhand, I guess theres no point in going for one for that. Thank you for all the post, and feel free to continue whatever tangent this thread was about to slip into. Exarch Mamael Chillin
Archon of Innoruuk
<Ascent>
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

[EZ_Cybelle]

No reason now, since you brought attention to the tangent...

[EZ_Derrict]

Quote:To 'prove' that with 1500 atk the gargoyle talon is superior to a shank is a ludicrous thing to even attempt because damage is relative to atk vs mob ac not just atk.

I have 2 parse mobs, one with high ac due to it's level advantage and another with low ac due to being a lower level mob, so whatever situation is needed I can use. I generally don't bother with the low ac parse mob since it doesn't provide dps figures that are more relative to what most people would be fighting against. Generally speaking, the majority of the rogues are fighting against PoP/LDoN so the mobs in question would be considered low mitigation type mobs.

Quote:As between a 15/20 piercer (e.g., MHT) and the GT, which goes in the offhand? The MHT because its delay is closer to Kalsh? (I have heard that you have a better chance at dual wielding where your two weapons have similar delay).

mht should do better in offhand.

[EZ_Quell Zent]

1. How well does your MT hold agro?
2. How well does your MT control proper mob position?
3. Does your shammy play pingpong?
4. How bad is your lag?
5. What is your buffed atk/haste?
6. Are the mobs with high AC being debuffed?

Depending on how you answer those question will determine which weapon will parse for greater dps.

I personally weild a GT and a Bloodbath (16/21). I frequently change my weapons around to suite the situation. In most cases I use the GT mainhand because it gets me more dps.

[EZ_Goradain]

Ok, so heres a question. Which does better off-hand damage? Or is off-hand damage included in the 5% difference?
Goradain - Jedi-Warlord of Rallos Zek
Greymir - Shaman of the Tribunal
Leader of Prophecy Rising

[EZ_Quell Zent]

Off-hand dps is based strictly on pure ratio

GT 17/24 (1.4)
WS 16/21 (1.3) +dot

WS is more dps off hand.

But again your not gonna get a GT so you can off hand it

[EZ_SWheaton]

I am not an uber rogue (level 55) can I ask whats the standard chance of BS if Gomdurig adds 5% to it and is it 20%+5%=25% or is it (5% of 20%)+20% = 21%? (if 20% is the chance of a BS occurring, I dont know the actual %)

Since BS is supposed to be a huge part of Rogue damage I still think big hitting slow weapons are better, one the mob has his back to you more if you are not aggroing it, two you do more damage on a BS with a heavy slow hitter. Ratio is everything, not speed, if you dont want agro.

My Rog uses Gomdurig main hand and RB off hand.

Mooriarty

[EZ_Srath the Claw]

I solved my problem with dot quite nicely. I got Mdod.

[EZ_SWheaton]

20% was a figure I used for comparison if thats what your skill makes it for base BS chance. I have Gomdurig and use it mainhand with RB in offhand. I was told 5% to BS from Gomdurig adds to your BS skill. So I am trying to find out whether thats significant. If skill is 10% chance of BS then 15% is great but 10.5% is less so. 25% is also good over 20% but again I dont know the base chance of BS and whether the 5% adds to it directly or not as in my example.

BS is supposed to be 30-40% of damage at my level, slower bigger hitting weapons give highter BS damage, faster weapons notoriously help hold aggro, for the same ratio I would use a slower bigger hitting weapon as a rogue as less likely to hold aggro. Given BS damage I could actually drop some ratio and do better but its hard to gauge this with out knowing the base BS chance and whether the 5% on Gomdrig will give +5% on "20%" or 1%?

Yes I use evade and you would know it doesnt always work, thus you try to avoid aggro in any way possible.

[EZ_particleboy]

Quote:
Wicked shank is the windblade of rogue weapons. 8(


LMAO. Good one. That comment owns.

Seriously, GT is junk. The extra 1dmg doesn't make as much BS dmg difference as you might think. Put it this way: Each 1dmg adds ~41.5 to the max non-crit non-disc BS (in this case its 703 instead of 661). Lets say it adds 41.5 to every BS (which it doesn't; it does less) and that equates to 8dps difference. In reality its probably 50-70% of that tops.

Thats not worth doing 10% less melee damage over.

Then again, the proc WS is junk.

Your best option is to do some LDoNs and get an aug'ed MDoD or do some middle tier PoP and get MM dart or, even better, Sol Ro knife (although if you can get this your guild is PoFire flagged so an Ifir should be coming your way before too long).

Whether you use WS or MDoD or something else, the GT makes an even worse offhand. There are plenty of better PoP alternatives, such as the JSoFF from SRT or the Agnarr 1hs (which is the best offhander up until you can kill Coirnav or the Rathe).

Lower down in PoP there are other options like the Saryan 1her (15/19?).

Seriously, both of those BoT pokers are junk.
Hagin Netherblade
Barbarian Deceiver
Township Rebellion
Stormhammer Server

[EZ_Eloco]

Quote:For me personally I'm not going to grab 5 people and go kill another tower boss just for my twink to get a talon

I agree with you 100%.



Quote:Seriously, both of those BoT pokers are junk.


Not to many of us.. hows the air up there sir? Eloco Ra'Pido
Assassin
Cazic-Thule
Praxium
A few things I collected

[EZ_KyrroRN]

Know what makes me laugh?

1. 17-24 is far better then 15-25 (ragebringer, which was the cornerstone of rogue piercers for so long) as far as damage and delay, so to call it a crappy poker is silly unless you have elemental access to get Ifir, or Time, Dagger of Distraction, and Jagged Time Forged Blade.

2. With such a small difference in ratio, unless your killing Gods with fights that last up to the last pixel of clerics mana, its almost to close to call. One does higher backstabs, one has a faster delay, this argument could go either way.

If your the type of player who ogles at high backstabs and likes to screenshot them, then use the 17 damage in main, but for myself, I always just preferred a good, high aggro tank, with a great cleric. If you got that, you can use a stick of pepperoni and get the job done. And dont worry about Escape getting blown over a DoT. I can go for weeks at a time w/o having to use it and the times I have needed, its rarely been because of a wipe, but more of getting uncovered while scouting and gaining aggro.

Its your 12.95, play with what you want, but its far too close to call. Frankly, why crunch numbers that are that close, this is a game, not math class.

Kyrro
Echoes in Eternity
Rodcet Nife

[EZ_Lindianae]

You might consider them both to be junk but thats the best I have. I don't have the time to do enough LDoN to get an auged dagger so thats out. So far no daggers off MM or SolRo and we haven't done Fennin yet.

[EZ_Wyglaf77]

Good job bumping a 3 month old thread

[EZ_particleboy]

Quote:
Not to many of us.. hows the air up there sir?


Since you can single group a 16/19 poker, yes they are junk. You don't even have to do hard LDoNs. If thats elitism then you really must be lazy.
Hagin Netherblade
Barbarian Deceiver
Township Rebellion
Stormhammer Server

[EZ_Draewyn]

Quote:why rogues mainhand a 17/24 over a 16/21?

Same reason I've seen over 5 off handing 16/19s in the past week. Lots of rogues are attention whores, looking for a super crit rather than the satisfaction of the best dps/overall damage on the parse, because parse geeks are outnumbered by non-parse geeks who might pay attention to an out-of-the-ordinary-for-a-rogue crit. Edited by: Draewyn at: 3/6/04 2:15 am

[EZ_Trebax Shadowstealer]

It is amazing with all the parses and posts that Derrict has put up over, gosh, the past 12 months.... that people cannot find them. They're EVERYWHERE.

Now, that being said, EZBoard search sucks. I think Derrict should put up a website with all these parse logs and stats...and have Safehouse link to it or something. Partnership type thing.

Okay, okay, I'll hush now.

[EZ_Derrict]

Maybe I should join a pickup BoT tower raid for a Gargoyla Talon haha.

[EZ_Wyglaf77]

i need to do one for wicked shank 8( i want a mezbreaker