View Full Version : Rogue Balancing with the Upcoming Expansion
12-28-03, 03:04 PM
What would you like to see added to the rogues arsenal to add greater balance with the new expansion-GoD.......
Hide/Sneak across zone borders
SET TRAPS- fire,cold,poison damage
Apply Poison animation
Stun With back stab
Poison on throwing daggers
Just a few things that the live team is faced with daily in emails....
I personally think that it would be cool if they gave the rogue the ability to scale walls with out the use of a ladder. It would add more to their assassin role and would be an interesting AA class ability.
I was wondering what kind of feedback you have to this and what other things you can think of that would add just a little more to the fun of playing a rogue.
61 Shaman-Nermerl DaKat
12-28-03, 04:21 PM
1) A more useful poison system. Can't stress this enough. Even if this is the only change SOE would implement for the rogues, I would be more than happy. A few thoughts:
a) Revitalize old world type poison system (proc with the first hit) with the ability to apply poison to more than the main-hand piercer at a time. Meaning, prepare several poisoned weapons prior to engagement. Make it an AA ability "Venomous Combat" or some-such: 3AAs to poison 2 daggers at a time; 6 AAs to poison up to 4 weapons including throwing weapons; 12AAs to poison up to 8 weapons including throwing weapons. (I don't think it is necessary to have more than 8 poisoned weapons per fight). To keep the balance implement a timer that doesn't allow to use all poisoned weapons one after another. Say, 1 every tick... or 1 every 2 ticks but scale down with additional AAs. Explain the timer as the need to see if the poison took hold for the rogue to know if more is necessary. Poisons were supposed to be our utility, give us the ability to use them as such.
b) PoP type poisons -- there must be a forced proc and instead of being completely random it should follow some logic. (not sure if it is already implemented with the new melee disciplines, but it should not be tied to disciplines to begin with)
c) Poison resist checks -- poisons should not be resisted more than wizzy/mage/etc. spells on average, especially higher tier poisons. Not sure if it is already the case, but I was rather unlucky as more than 70% of my attempts to poison mobs throughout my hunting resulted in resists.
d) Allow other classes to apply poison to their weapons but only with lower tier poisons. Also, ONLY rogues will continue to be able to make poisons. (Can't stress the last point enough). For all who say that eventually other classes will want to make poison too, I give you the example of shammie potions: all love them, only shammies make them, noone complains. Shammies already make their potions, gnomes tinker, wizzies port, mages summon, clerics rez, many others buff, etc. Rogues should get the same chance at making profit from their class ability.
2) Illusions that don't drop on zoning -- it is ridiculous that because I cross a zone I'm forced to remove the mask. Zones are artificial (with exception of teleportation).
3) Mobs seeing through SoS should only have a chance at seeing the rogue instead of it being a certainty. Same should apply to all PvP even with "see invis" items and spells. Sneak/hide backstab is the bread and butter of a rogue. why take it away completely in PvP?
4) Make throwing useful -- extend the range, increase the damage. We get deadly strikes with throwing, but most rogues give up throwing for archery.
5) Do something about the discrepancy between uber and non-uber rogues on the background of a much smaller diffrence between uber/non-uber wizzies, for example, in terms of DPS. Not exactly sure what to do though (nerfing non-gear dependent classes comes to mind, heheh)
If any of these will actually be implemented I think the hell will freeze over.
12-28-03, 05:31 PM
Well, I'm a bit biased, as my main is a wizard not a rogue. I feel that rogues are overall very balanced as they are, and even the new melee changes perhaps were a bit much, but we will see. That being said and out of the way, however:
Hide/Sneak across borders should have always been there. It's not too bad right now, most borders are fairly safe, though alot of the ones that aren't are ones you would really wish they were. And then there's the ones that get trained. I'm all for this one, just as a general fix--though I'd bet one of the reasons they don't is as a failsafe from locked up routines---spellcasting, skills, and other things all reset when you zone.
Set traps is a fairly neat idea, especially if instead of damage it's utility type traps like root, snare, etc... I also had the idea of saving the traps off LDON chests--you roll really well on a disarm, and you get a no-rent 1 charge vial of embalming fumes you can cast in an area, for instance. Risk vs. Reward, those things are way more deadly to players than they can be to mobs, and you have to risk setting them off on yourself before you can use it. I'd say that this was balanced.
Apply Poison animation-- /shrug. According to some rogues, no rogue in his right mind ever uses poisons, so how would anyone notice if the animation was broken? Of course, if rogues do use poisons, all those dps arguments vs. casters go out the window since rogues can snare/slow/root etc.. as well. Eh, I'm a bit bitter, ignore this. You want a cool animation, I can support that--they should fix monk attack animations and Iksar swimming animations while they are at it. The Luclin animations were the purest crap ever.
Stun with Backstab---eh... that depends on what the level cap on that stun would be. Regardless of level however, as an offensive disc or perhaps a manuver in the opening system it might be ok, but I doubt you want to add stun to every backstab since stun is uber-taunt. It's how pally's lock down taunt, so in this case I'd be careful what you wish for. So long as either the re-use isn't to often, or the level cap too high (55+ mobs), I'd think this would be a healthy additon. But if it can stun mobs 55+, then the re-use should be fairly long (40+ min), If the cap is 55, then the reuse could be every 5-10ish min in my opinion. The equivalent difference is wizard stun ability from level 20-56, vs. the upgraded 60+ stuns like Telekin that work on mobs up to 65. Rogues already get a poison that will stun mobs over 55, I don't know that it would be balanced if they could add it to their backstab at will.
Poison on Throwing Daggers. Poison needs to be reworked by someone with a clue anyway. Of COURSE poison should work on ranged weapons, daggers included. There should also be a dart gun weapon similar to a bow, with dart ammunition that could be poisoned or imbued with procs just like bows only working off the regular thrown skill.
Climbing Walls won't happen. The world is not rendered in such a way as to make it possible. Also, some dungeons were designed with one way areas involving drops on purpose that this would break. On The Other Hand....we are getting a completly new graphic engine soon---and this includes re-rendered zones apparently. When they do this, flight and wall climbing may become possible, so only time can tell. But as it is now, if you use lev to get up into some places you should not be, you run into odd partitions that you cannot see and can get trapped in mid air or on top of buildings in several areas---the world itself was not designed with this kind of mobility in mind.
As for ideas that would enhance the playing of a rogue:
99% of the problem with playing a rogue in EQ is content. The developers had 'vision', but that vision was shortsighted and myopic. If zones were designed with little tidbits that were rogue skill friendly, rogues would not have sucked pre-kunark and become what they are now.
++'mobs' that are traps should be designed. They spawn in places, attack all not on their faction, are rooted, and attack slowly to simulate reset time. They are super invisable--but successfully using detect traps reveals them for a short time, as does triggering--for a moment or 2 after triggering, they can be attacked by anyone and possibly be destroyed , but they also have perfect ripost, so that attacking them triggers them over and over. Disarming them should grant xp and despawn the mob permanantly--subject to the same re-pop rules that govern the zone, though it should not spawn staticly in the dungeon, but at several differenent points. Advanced disarm skills through either high skill level, critical success, or AA should allow you to change the 'trap mobs' faction to friendly to the party, instead striking npc's on opposing factions to the rogue. Let me know if part of that didn't make sense.
++Hidden and Safe rooms within dungeons. Rooms that are scattered around dungeons with hidden doors that require sense traps to be found, and open locks to open. These rooms could contain NPC's that will heal the party, recharge mana, perhaps give mini quests, etc... They might include groundspawn food such as special funguses native to that dungeon, or just cool scenery. They might also contain a short walkway and a miniboss that drops good money and special loot--not something that can be soloed, but something challenging to the group. Instancing would work well with this idea.
++Allow rogues to become fences for goods through AA. Level 1 of the fence AA allows them to be a merchant with bad prices (like the OT clockwork gnomes). Level 2 makes then a neutral/normal price fence, buying goods at normal prices with neutral faction adjustments. Level 3 allows Rogues to buy items as if they were Allied/Same Race/Same Religion/Max Charisma etc... good prices. This would work similar to /trader mode, only work everywhere, and the rogue has no access to the items sold to him in fence mode--this is purely for the conveince of the party to sell to a vendor wherever they are--as if he is acting on consignment from a Rogue Guild somewhere. Upgrades to the AA might allow him to stock standard gear in /fence mode, Rogue gear at higher aa like lockpicks and no-rent items with 1 charge buffs to raise or grant rogue skills, and possibly even spell components and similiar items at the highest of the AA's. A FURTHER upgrade might also allow a /banker function which allows PC's to click on the rogue and use him as a banker as well. Talk about unique utility, I would surgically graft a rogue into a group for these functions alone, even if he only did 2 dps and randomly dotted my party every 15 min.
++Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table, random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd, and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc... stuff that theives like to steal.
There's my 2 cp, and you didn't even have to steal it.
12-28-03, 08:57 PM
Damage bonus applied to offhand
full speed underwater sneak
12-28-03, 08:58 PM
I just want a rogue familiar. Something to follow me around and go "HEY! I add 10 (insert stat here)!" Just for grins ya know?
...and more pie
12-28-03, 08:59 PM
You have some good ideas Antrygus, especially for a wizard!
Dove the Silent. Assassin of Clan Ta'Veren
12-28-03, 09:22 PM
I would like my hide/sneak not to break on zoning, and my illusions also to hold. I would like a seperate pp table and a faster submerged sneak. These are things that I think are feasable. However for the wish upon a star I would like to stalk humanoid mobs/players, and a more reasonable poison system with a merchant or three in PoK that sells 90% of the ingredients I need at a fair price. ____________
62nd Season Redeemed Barbarian Skald
12-29-03, 03:00 AM
Quote:Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA ... NO!
Wood Elf Rogues can already forage and most of it is useless crap as it is. Why would i want to steal such utter useless junk?
That is a flat out nerf idea because someone must have once picked your quad kite.
Lay off the KEI Dazzler Twodirks High Speed Quisinart for Hire
Guildleader of the Blades of Honor.
Monsters Slain, Pockets Picked, Corpses Dragged, and more.
No job too small, no fee too large
Card Carrying Member of The Safehouse.
Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ
12-29-03, 05:24 AM
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean pickpocket should actually use the forage table. He's suggesting a "pickpocket table" of loot. Rather than taking what the mob spawned with, it would come from some special table defined for that zone. I guess the artwork and statues thing would depend on how you want to play the pickpocket angle. Do you want it to be just a way for a rogue to make some extra cash (via sellable items) or should it be an alternate way to get loot off mobs (the sneaky way, rather than flat out killing them)?
I like the way pickpocketing takes what a mob actually has, as would really happen. I don't like the way it takes away from what the group gets and creates a "rogue vs. group" sort of situation. Perhaps have a copy of the mob's spawn loot table? So the rogue's rewards would still be random based on whatever the mob spawned with, but it wouldn't directly take away from direct loot. Maybe have Lore items not show up on the PP copy table, to avoid getting twice as many good items from a mob (though some mobs do drop multiple Lore items). -------------------------
12-29-03, 05:53 AM
What is clearly needed is a base damage modifier for race
Human as the standard - 1.0x Damage
You can recipracate poision damage in reverse giving Barbs 0.003x damage base and Gnomes 3.5x.
Shamroc - Deceiver
12-29-03, 05:56 AM
rogues are fine they way they are now
Just need more rogue type content =\
(and more poison shiznat. I'd really like to be able to poison arrows/throwing daggers, and possibly poison other people's blades....for a fee of course)
I also think, i should be able to add poison elemental damage to my blade for xxx amount of time
Stuff I Own
12-29-03, 07:12 AM
Quote:Stun With back stab You don't want this kinda agro
Asking Santa Troll for a seperate loot table for pickpocket that doesnt effect the drop table would be a good one; and a revamp to the poisen system would be another imho.
"The crows maintain,
a single crow could destroy
heaven, that is doubtless,
but doesn't move heaven,
for, heaven implies precisely:
impossibility of crows."
"Rogues" to me, have always projected an image of an independent, self-sufficient type of character, which is in direct contradiction to the EverQuest Rogue, one of (if not THE) most dependent classes in the game.
Relying on constant 'babysitting' for things like FA and Ferocity are something I'd like to move away from. Perhaps the next expansion will bring long-duration buffs of this type? Self-only clickies with lesser powered variants?
Rogues will always be handicapped in the solo department due to NPC insta-facing. A half-tick 'hold movement' ability (the same effect Root has on a PC) would help this incredibly while not affecting our DPS in a group/raid scenario. This would also be very useful when a mob goes to chase down someone other than the tank, or runs off unsnared, etc.
I'd like to see improvements to the trap system. Traps should be invisible NPC's and disarming a trap should "de-spawn" it. In non-ldon zones, the traps would re-spawn at the zone's normal respawn rate.
Passive trap avoidance and detection... 'you sense there is a trap nearby' which would indicate that there is a trap in range for you to sense/disarm. Also if this happens, you will not set off the trap via normal movement.
I'd also really like to see a backstab-specific AA, either for crits or min dmg increase.
"Assassination Mastery" that either raises assassination level caps or increases chance of assassination (or both!) would be awesome too.
Damage bonus applied to offhandI'm not a fan of these - Doing so would devalue non-piercing and slower offhand choices even if they have high ratios. Your Sister in Arms,
12-29-03, 08:09 AM
i dont mind fast traps for raid content. After all there isnt a set rule for respawn rate of mobs in raid content either. They can be instant if thats what the design calls for.
12-29-03, 08:11 AM
"I would like my hide/sneak not to break on zoning, and my illusions also to hold. I would like a seperate pp table and a faster submerged sneak."
Absolutely agree 100%. Would like to see all of these, as soon as possible. The slow sneak underwater is a particular thorn in my side, as is the alternate pickpocket loot table, considering THERE USED TO BE ONE!!! hide/sneak and illusions not breaking on zoning would be an extremely nice upgrade, too.
As for dreamland... having the ability to set AoE traps, or even DD traps would be FANTASTIC.
Other than that, I'm happy with my rogue.
12-29-03, 10:13 AM
Quote:Wood Elf Rogues can already forage and most of it is useless crap as it is. Why would i want to steal such utter useless junk?
Hi! Read much Dazzler? Instead of stopping at
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table
try to read the whole post. It looks alot better when read in total, like so:
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table, random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd, and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc... stuff that theives like to steal.
It becomes even cooler if you pick out certain aspects of it that are an improvement over the current system, though it does remove the ability for a rogue to suck 80% of the money out of a LDON by taking the gems. Check it out:
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage(as in not exactly like). Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table,(+) random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd(it could be noted that this would work on mobs that don't normally have cash, like say 90% of tier 1 pop), and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash(this would make up some of the cash difference in losing what few diamonds and stuff that you would have stolen from your group)--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc(this is mostly because I like RP touches when I can get them, and rogues should steal more than a mobs jewelry and cash when they visit someones home.)... stuff that theives like to steal.
Quote:That is a flat out nerf idea because someone must have once picked your quad kite.
Lay off the KEI
Actually, I was thinking of a rogue improvement. As it is, groups I'm in rarely consider rogues for grouping as they are a danger to the cash outcome, and where I play, that 150-300 pp per adventure is actually important. Most of that amount comes from perfectly pickable items, and I play mostly in N.Ro where most mobs are pickable for groups in the mid-high 50's.
As for another way to make cash, imagine if my Fence idea went in, and you could become a source for utility items only obtainable from rogues, like 1 use magic lockpicks, Sneak Potions (way more useful in some circumstances than invis potions), Amulet of Escape (item that wipes aggro like escape one time, with an hour recharge time via modrod type code, usable by anyone)---lots of posiblities are there, if you could get SOE to agree with you. Also, like I said, if I could bring a rogue and be able to sell and bank in the dungeon at any time, or buy food, water, arrows, etc... though a mage is good for the food/water/arrows thing.
12-29-03, 02:14 PM
As much as I hate and loathe Asslings, you make me want to hate barbarians. Marauder Arakasi
Deceiver - Tunare
Gale of Destruction
12-29-03, 03:22 PM
PLEASE stop with the poison non sence. Poison is broken and ALWAYS will be, its a waste of time and will never be implemented properly. Lets focus on DAMAGE, as that is all a rogue is in EQ, sad but true.
How about some aa that umm, actually effect backstab?? Imagine wizards with no AA that effected their best nukes?? Nothing super crazy, just maybe an AA that increased backstab crits frequency/damage, or one that allowed a chance at a triple backstab, something for our MAIN skill. Rogues need to be seperated again from the other dps classes. WAY too many classes can do rogue type dps and offer much more to the group.
12-29-03, 03:53 PM
Quote:PLEASE stop with the poison non sence. Poison is broken and ALWAYS will be, its a waste of time and will never be implemented properly. Lets focus on DAMAGE, as that is all a rogue is in EQ, sad but true.
It is attitudes like yours that contribute to poisons not being a proirity on dev's list of things-to-do. Things will never change if the general attitude is: "Oh well, they'll never fix it, so lets not even ask about it."
Rogues are at the top of the list or very close to it when it comes to sustained-DPS. New disciplines when tweaked properly will give us a burst-DPS boost. It is always nice to see a DPS increase to rogues, but it does very little for class balancing (we still won't be able to solo, we still won't have anything interesting where our fighting style is concerned). There is no art to hitting the BS button when it pops up, so I wouldn't enjoy the game more if I do more damage per one push of a button.
Poison system is a brilliant idea and befitting the rogue class. It opens up a world of possibilities. It is sad that it is not well implemented. Fixing things, even with the current system, is not that hard -- considerably lower prices on poison ingredients, make them more readily available, and make all poisons stackable. Thats it! Problem solved! I guarantee that if this were to ever happen, 90% of the rogues would use poisons in everyday hunting.
12-29-03, 04:34 PM
1. Full speed underwater/strafing/backwards sneak
2. Force Process
3. Lure Poisons
4. Ranged Poisons
Those four, and i'd be happy. Sneak speed is a bug anyway. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein
12-29-03, 05:25 PM
~Expanded/enchanced poison system worth the time to work on
~SoS/Clickie Illusions lasting across zones (like horses, invis, etc)
~Enhanced throwing weapon creation tables (i.e.; more variety to crafted throwing weapons, even extended to making it class-only past a certain level)
~More in-depth trap and lock system NOT extended to caster classes... *scowls*
That's my Wish List, atm...
12-29-03, 05:44 PM
Some great ideas...If only the members of the safehouse fourms could be the live team /sigh.......
They really need to fix our poison.... all its good for at the moment is this Grandmaster Assassin's Seal... And they really make it easy to get huh...
61 Shaman-Nermerl DaKat
12-29-03, 08:38 PM
Personally, I think poisons are basically fine in theory. The dev team actually changed a lot of things that we have asked for over time. I am happy that I can either farm greenies or sit in an xp group and get components for the pop poison. Being able to make charged poisons and re-use vials address the old stacking issues and cuts down on cost. (OK, you need to get the GM vial, I'm ok with that.) We asked that poison add a proc instead of being single use. We got a LOT of what we wanted the last time around.
The only serious problem with poison is that procs aren't additive. If my weapon has ProcA that goes off 1/10 hits on average once I add a poison proc (ProcB) that by itself would go off 1/10 hits, each of those only go off 1/20 hits -- i.e. I don't get 2 procs in 10 hits, I still get 1 proc every 10 hits, just half the time its my weapon proc and half the time its the poison proc.
That alone makes poison completely useless.
I would like to see assassinate improved, even if that just means increasing the level of the mob we can assassinate to the highest level green at 65. It still gripes my bum that monks and warriors get triple attack at 60 and those still give them something useful at 65, while we get assassinate which was barely useful at 60, much less 65!
Triple backstab. =P
12-29-03, 10:28 PM
Quote:Triple backstab. =P
hell ya. We should get triple attack at 70 (like every other melee class has) which would also apply to backstabs of course. -and- we should get offhand backstab which can hit for up to 3 times, just like off-hand duel weild checks!
Im sure no one would complain, I mean in theory that would only up our DPS by 40 or 50%
Dove the Silent. Assassin of Clan Ta'Veren
12-30-03, 12:03 AM
Offhand backstab and workable throwing.
12-30-03, 12:31 AM
Stop asking for offhand backstab... Backstab = piercing only. Do you *really* want to be limited to piercing weapons in both hands at all times?
12-30-03, 04:03 AM
Yes, god. Please, no offhand backstab.
12-30-03, 09:25 AM
Full speed sneak+hide underwater/jumping
AOE CORPSE PULLING - Dont care if it costs me 12 aa's to let me pull 9 corpses at a time, It really sucks to be the only rogue on a raid trying to pull 50 corpses.
Apart from that I dont really care, more utility means I would probably have to do more so just those two please.
12-30-03, 05:43 PM
I read the whole post but i'll be damned if hitting pickpocket is gonna net me a fishing grub, roots, water flask, berries or other total useless crap.
that's a flat out nerf to the skill.
12-31-03, 03:25 AM
Dazzler, you're joking right?
12-31-03, 07:03 AM
Don't bother, Dazzler wont ever understand...
All great ideas here IMO, with exception for the triple and offhand backstab of course. The only thing i can really wish for and be reasonable about is if they would make our poison skills useful in every aspect of the game. Honestly, they implemented it, might as well give us a reason to use it.
Also, would someone fill me in on why so many rogues want to "solo" in an MMORPG?? If you want to be alone there are plenty of games out there that allow you to be by yourself (like DIABLO FOR EXAMPLE!)
Or perhaps i am misinterpreting the reason behind this all together...
Rue the day you were born,
Blessed be the day you die,
And i shall be the one...
To deliver that blessing.
Quote:Also, would someone fill me in on why so many rogues want to "solo" in an MMORPG??Except for Rogues, almost any class can solo situationally with reasonable success. Warriors are probably next-lowest on the food chain here.
Our inability to do so is due primarily to npc insta-facing removing opportunity to backstab in a solo situation. Very simply, we're rendered unable to solo due to an inflexible game mechanic.
Now, I'm not asking to solo-grind an aa in 20mins or even tank down blue-con PoP mobs, but it's pretty rough for the casual player to bear the handicap we have in the solo department.
Example: my Paladin. Jezzie is not a pure melee class and I have 10 levels, 1000 HP, FAR more time invested in gear and a BIG damage advantage over her. Yet, she can go toe-to-toe mobs that I cannot. It's kind of scary what she can do to some mobs in Charasis where I'd hit Escape on the second they aggro'ed me because I know I have no chance of winning without a disc. Especially when they have damage shields - outch! Edited by: JazyaVechette at: 12/31/03 8:55 am
12-31-03, 11:05 AM
From what ive read, there are a couple of good, reasonable ideas that we can ask for.
A) hide/sneak/illusion not disapeering when zoning
B) faster hide/sneaking under water
C) longer disarm on traps, and complete disarming on LDoN traps.
D) passive sense trap skill
E) assassination AAs. I think only a raise chance to assassinate AA would be possible, b/c raising the level would be too powerful.
F) Jazya's hold skill is genius. A little, short hold type thing that we can use in soloing. All it'll do is hold the mob in place for maybe 4-5 seconds, disabling the auto-face for that time, and allow us to scoot around the mob for a backstab. Also nice for fleeing mobs.
Then of course there is the poison system, and its...f*cked up, lol. no idea wot to do here :P
thats all i see atm, those r pretty reasonable imho.
12-31-03, 11:23 AM
/em wants the moon plz~
- - - -
Hedii 65 Deciever
Skeeli 56 Reaver
12-31-03, 11:30 AM
Quote:Except for Rogues, almost any class can solo situationally with reasonable success. Warriors are probably next-lowest on the food chain here.
Our inability to do so is due primarily to npc insta-facing removing opportunity to backstab in a solo situation. Very simply, we're rendered unable to solo due to an inflexible game mechanic.
Now, I'm not asking to solo-grind an aa in 20mins or even tank down blue-con PoP mobs, but it's pretty rough for the casual player to bear the handicap we have in the solo department.
Two nights ago, a warrior guildie soloed PoStorms giants. He also duoed BoT giants, the other person was a ranger who only did spot light healing (and, with a bit of downtime, he probably wouldn't have needed that).
Just thought I'd throw that out there...
12-31-03, 11:41 AM
Forgot to add, for anyone who thinks our DPS is out of line (mainly directed at those who come here from other boards to troll/snipe), here's the results of Yalp (new version that catches spell/dot damage properly) run on log last night, BoT epad camp:
Ele/Time Rogue: 180.18
Ele/Time Enchanter: 613.13 (just the enchanter..didn't include the DC pet)
Ele/Time Monk: 126.91
Time Beastlord (one of the highest-ranked in the game, across all servers):
Pre-Ele Wizard: 283.19
Ele Necromancer: 340.86 (didn't include pet....went thru a few. this is JUST the necro)
The above is for your above-average group of people. These aren't "best case" parses. Never should a best-case-only argument be used, as only .1%, at best, will fall into that category. The people listed, with the exception of the wizard and necro, are exceptions to the "general populace", being Elemental and Time equipped. The parse was run over a 3 1/2 hour period of standard aa grinding, not to test maximum output, although I can guarantee that the rogue always works for maximum output (I should know...I'm that rogue).
The arguments I always hear are versatility vs dps from the peanut gallery visitors to Safehouse of those that insist on trolling/insulting rogues who ask for versatility, making outlandish claims of our general dps being so great, we don't deserve any versatility. Of course, many times, these claims include "I grouped with a rogues once who..."
Yes, we do too much dps to deserve any sort of versatility... *rolls eyes*
Sorry, had to add in all this due to the already-occurring, and anticipated future trolls from other boards coming here to flame this thread, and others. Sorry to otherwise clutter up the thread... Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/31/03 11:53 am
12-31-03, 12:47 PM
Quote:I read the whole post but i'll be damned if hitting pickpocket is gonna net me a fishing grub, roots, water flask, berries or other total useless crap.
As opposed to now, where you have the chance to either 1.) steal from the group, or 2) getting something no one cares about?
Currently the rogues on the PP threads talk about all you getting is useless crap. Food would at least be mildly useful, and give you a chance at getting other stuff that is foragable only if your not a wood elf. (grease from innovation for Nightmare Bows comes to mind, as an example).
My suggested change is a nerf only in the respect that there is no longer a chance for the rogue to walk out of a long group or LDON with 1-2kpp in gems that should have gone to the group.
It replaces this with the chance to get, at minimum, something usefull, some cash, and possibly some unique cash sellables.
12-31-03, 01:11 PM
I didn't mean the gems per group.
I meant when either trying for epic notes you get water, 2 silver, water, fishing grub, root, root, 3 gold ect instead of getting what's on the mob.
Who needs all that excess junk with the risk of getting nailed?
12-31-03, 01:37 PM
Its a myth that a rogue will come away from an LDoN adventure or an average xp group with 1-2kpp in gems, so stop propagating it. Edited by: Sajuiil at: 12/31/03 1:39 pm
12-31-03, 01:51 PM
Quote:here's the results of Yalp (new version that catches spell/dot damage properly) run on log last night, BoT epad camp:
1) No parser shows 3rd party dot damage correctly because dot damage isn't shown by the EQ client
2) Yalp doesn't do the dps figure for casters correctly. It should start the dps figure when the first character engages, instead it starts the dps figure when the person begins attacking. That means that a caster that only casts one spell per fight has an exaggerated dps figure. It is much more useful to look at total damage done over the course of the adventure session.
Level 65 Magi
12-31-03, 02:25 PM
Then I'll post total damage for the 3 1/2 hours when I get to my home computer. Total damage was aligned well with the dps reports, though... I was shocked, personally...thought the beastie did far more, thought the enchanter did far less, thought the necro and wizard were swapped.
On a side note, does ANYONE know how to shut off eq logging and make it STAY off? I have to turn it off every time I log in, even if it's from being kicked to character select screen, I have to shut it off again.
12-31-03, 02:27 PM
There is a setting in the eqclient.ini that determines if logging is turned on by default. Change it to false. Traigos Ode
Level 65 Magi
12-31-03, 03:12 PM
yer dps for the enchanter... curious if he had a DC pet as you seem to indicate in yer disclaimer or if he was charming via COD, or are you just counting the percent increases from his buffs? feel free to give a lil more info next time.
12-31-03, 04:41 PM
Considering I said it was Yalp... If you've ever used it, it divides offensive damage by person(s) listed in the logs as delivering the blow. It was a standard enchanter DC of a lesser elemental in BoT... Didn't think it was that complicated... DC'd mob, surprisingly, did less dps (as parsed) than the beastie's pet.
bleh...edited out the rant... Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/31/03 4:42 pm
12-31-03, 04:44 PM
i just want two things
#1 rogues able to poison throwing weps and arrows
#2 rogue poisons that work ( well work better ) on all mobs in game. like spells do for casters. honestly what would a caster be if there spells did not work on mobs in pop . well u did that to us rogues for the most part.
12-31-03, 04:56 PM
Quote:I meant when either trying for epic notes you get water, 2 silver, water, fishing grub, root, root, 3 gold ect instead of getting what's on the mob.
That's not how high level Foraging works. In fact, they had to, several years ago, make it so that if you are getting the hungry/thirsty message your next successful Forage be a Food/water because High level rangers were starving to death while throwing out 'rare' forages. Higher the skill, higher the chance of getting rarer items. If PP was the same way, PPing mobs would have a better chance of coming away with various quest items as opposed to food and trash.
Quote:Its a myth that a rogue will come away from an LDoN adventure or an average xp group with 1-2kpp in gems, so stop propagating it.
It's not a myth, it actually happens. It does not happen every time, but it has a chance of happening any time your in an area where gems are going to drop.
This is a different thread however, one that usually reaches a couple hundred posts of flames before getting locked. Just do a search, I'm sure you'll find the last one.
12-31-03, 05:01 PM
I like the way pickpocketing takes what a mob actually has, as would really happen. I don't like the way it takes away from what the group gets and creates a "rogue vs. group" sort of situation. Perhaps have a copy of the mob's spawn loot table? So the rogue's rewards would still be random based on whatever the mob spawned with, but it wouldn't directly take away from direct loot. Maybe have Lore items not show up on the PP copy table, to avoid getting twice as many good items from a mob (though some mobs do drop multiple Lore items).
I think it is more correct to ask for them to BRING BACK the duplicate loot tables. (Yes, I am giving away my age again). Turlo Lomon
Officer of Final Fury
12-31-03, 06:33 PM
Lets do a simple calculation taking the average "stolen loot" you suggest: 1.5k Thats about 6 blue diamonds or so.
What freaking LDoN dungeons do you go to that dropped 6 blue diamonds?
You say regular XP group (in LoY lets say) -- how long do you have to XP to get 6 blue diamonds dropped?
How good do you think our pickpocketing is? We do not succeed with every attempt even with maxed out skill (on some mobs the success rate is pathetically low). There is an 8 sec (or so) refresh on pickpocketing, so we can't pickpocket too many times in regular fights. Its additional agro that no rogue wants. There is only 1/6 chances that you will pickpocket and "item" (ie something worthy, like a gem) everything else is cash. We cannot pickpocket magic items (nerfed because of whiners like you). We cannot pickpocket weapons or shields (thats where disarm comes in).
Just because some ass of a rogue decided to brag about their exaggerated pickpocketing prowess, doesn't mean the skill is that damaging to the groups. It was said many times before --casters demanding gems as compensation and main looters that hold off the top are robbing groups a lot more than any rogue that I have ever encountered.
Adding a separate loot table is just a stupid idea for two simple reasons:
1) Seeing that the rogues can pickpocket freely, the "rogue" loot table would be immediately nerfed into useless junk. I do not foresee any dev letting rogues become rich on thievery, it will cause riots among other classes -- WHAT rogues get more than we do?
2) If rogues get a decent separate loot table, they will be excluded by most groups from the "main" loot. Do you how many problems can arise from that?
While duplicate tables would satisfy the whiners that come to rogue boards to complain about thievery it would be immediately removed -AGAIN! see 2) above (sigh, it is a great idea though).
In my opinion, nerf the success rate a little more or make the punishment for getting caught a lot more severe than "Stop! Thief!" (put some risk into pickpocketing), but let us pickpocket anything that is on the mob's loot table.
As a side note, I don't understand why people get their panties in a bunch over rogue pickpocketing, while almost every other class gets: KEI whoring, and 100pp rezzes, and 35pp shammy buffs, and 25pp porting services, and generous contributions for summoned stuff, 10pp for SOW and the list goes on. (notice that all melees are screwed once again. At least rogues have their pickpocket, but NOooo! other classes want it nerfed and even removed).
Sorry about the rant.
12-31-03, 09:54 PM
In this game we all would like certain things, i think this is different to how each person plays the game. sure i would like to have sneak and hide stick through zones, and i would love to not have to hit the illusion after zoning, and hey the drag corpse thing would rock if i could do more than one at a time.
but what are we really after, the sneak and illusions things are both roleplaying devices, I zone in and out of zones and there are a few times i get caught with my pants down, but hey its better than nothing, most races zone and if they dont have invis on, or go into a zone where everyone sees through they dont have a chance. and the illusion thing to me is just me being lazy.
in fact the drag corpse thing is benificial so that the half of the raid that consents me wont send me a tell every five minutes or spam consent me just for thier corpse.
What do we want, My job as a rogue in groups and in raids is to dish out damage and not take any back. If i turn the mob it hurts the group and the raid.
The majority of the time i play and 90 something % of us play is in a grop or raid situation, and yes before you start, the zoning hidden thing helps and all, but its all utility, the reason we exist is DPS and not getting hit while doing it.
I would like to see something where while we are fighting we can go balls to the wall and have less of a chance of getting attention from the mob. They gave warriors more damage and agro stuffs, why not give us more damage and less aggro stuff.
Im not shooting down any idea about sneak and stuff, but for me, the greatest thing is the ability to execute my job more effectively. I love it when rogues get recognition at a raid or group situation where we handled our aggro and did awesome damage. A big fight where we dont die due to aggro is a good fight in my book.
So whoever the rep is for sony, the suggestions in this post are good, but make us better at what we are suppose to do in a fight, thats what counts. either that or just tell us we arent getting any thing other than what we already have got. that way we wont keep guessing.
None deserve praise for doing good who hath not the heart of doing evil; for good is nothing more than indolence or weakness of the will
12-31-03, 10:24 PM
I would like to see a new animation for backstabs to show it as different from the rest of the stuff.
Also wouldn't mind seeing backstabs show as crits for public view again.
01-01-04, 09:45 AM
Quote:What freaking LDoN dungeons do you go to that dropped 6 blue diamonds
None. However, I've had several that had 1 or 2 Blue Diamonds, a couple of regular diamonds, a Ruby Crown or 3, several Fire Emeralds, Sapphires, Emerald rings Etc....
This is where the cash in LDON comes from. There is plenty of cash loot items that drop, and they are all pickable.
I Never said that all rogues do this all the time, only that every rogue has the opportunity any time this loot is available.
Quote:Just because some ass of a rogue decided to brag about their exaggerated pickpocketing prowess, doesn't mean the skill is that damaging to the groups. It was said many times before --casters demanding gems as compensation and main looters that hold off the top are robbing groups a lot more than any rogue that I have ever encountered
Casters demanding compensation is only fair--or I guess you could do without HP buffs for the group. You can do nothing about dishonest main looters, other than to do the looting yourself, or make it someone you trust.
Quote:1) Seeing that the rogues can pickpocket freely, the "rogue" loot table would be immediately nerfed into useless junk. I do not foresee any dev letting rogues become rich on thievery, it will cause riots among other classes -- WHAT rogues get more than we do?
And yet, it is better that these funds come from your group, instead? If it's balanced that rogues get more from the mob than everyone else, it's only fair that it not take away from what other people get to do so. As for being left out of the main loot pool.... I would not do it to folks in my group, but I'd expect the ability to be actually balanced, rather than the jackpot winnings that can currently be won.
The main point, I might give you money, if it was for something worthwhile and my choice. If it was for something gamebreaking in my favor, yet I had no choice on wether to pay, I'd go without if I could avoid it.
Quote:As a side note, I don't understand why people get their panties in a bunch over rogue pickpocketing, while almost every other class gets: KEI whoring, and 100pp rezzes, and 35pp shammy buffs, and 25pp porting services, and generous contributions for summoned stuff, 10pp for SOW and the list goes on.
The main point, the one that rogues always gloss over as unimportant but is really at the center of the debate, is that you have a choice on if you want to purchase the KEI, Rez, Shammy Buff, Port, Summoned item, SoW, or anything on that list that appears to go on. You do NOT have a choice on allowing the rogue to steal from the group.
This, however, should be in another thread, this thread started out nice, and asked for ideas which I gave freely and with good intention. If ya'll really want to defend the Pick Pocket skill somemore, either figure out where the last thread went and ressurect it, or else start a new one.
01-01-04, 10:08 AM
again...let's get this pick pocket thread dead.
Instant solution, make the rogue ML. Period, end of discussion. If you don't trust them to not PP, then make them loot everything and split it at the end. You can not trust me and that's fine, not trusting an entire class because of a skill is just silly.
01-01-04, 10:46 AM
1)The advanced trap negotiation AA should allow the rogue to actually see the trap, higher the AA into the skill, the better of a chance to see harder traps.
2)Wider range of throwing weapons for rogues to choose from that would be usefull, or something like the bloody anchille's pouch for rogues and throwing items.
3)A limited tracking AA. I imagine an assassin to track/stalk their target in the shadows. Allow us to do that without running around with SoS blindly looking for them.
4)I like the poison to throwing weapons and apply poisons to more weapons at one time idea.
5)More AA's to up our DPS through BS, better chance to hit, etc.
6)I like the being able to set traps idea also.
7)SoS working in PvP.
8: Improved Poison system.
9)Epic in range would be really sweet. Edited by: Stabbjoo at: 1/1/04 10:48 am
01-01-04, 11:31 AM
2)..., or something like the bloody anchille's pouch for rogues and throwing items.
"A dusty soriz worker pouch" from Ssra.
From Hilog Jarsath (L56) in the mines.
I know its rare, but it does exist.
01-01-04, 01:06 PM
Are you suggesting that a rogue can steal all of that loot, or even a considerable part of it in a single crawl?
It is nice to know that you, personally, wouldn't exclude rogues from main loot if they had a separate loot-table, but from my experience you will be in the severe minority. Majority of people do suffer from class envy, the "thieving rogue whine" is a good example of it. Giving those people such a nuclear bomb of a weapon against the rogues as their own loot table with worthwhile loot is just plain mean.
I, personally, as a rogue would protest against a separate but worthless loot-table. I see forage as a pretty useless skill with exception of a few quests, and the only fun quest where rogues use pickpocket is our epic. I don't want to see pickpocket reduced to the status of forage (don't tell me that forage will save me on food -- even I as a rogue can solo enough cash in minutes to last me for a long time in food)
Also, buffing an entire group costs 66pp (55 if you exclude self buffs, which you should) not 250pp, the cost of single blue diamond... so HELL YA! I think casters should not get gems off the top! Besides, it is their job to buff the group, their lives depend on everyone else surviving the fights, so they should buff entire groups for their own benefit.
You cannot speak about choices since rogues don't have a choice either: of quad-kiting or even soloing, casting KEI, porting, rezzing, etc. To each class their own (again my condolences to monks and warriors).
And, you as a wizard, should not bring up the pickpocket nerf (or as you call it suggestion) on rogue boards.
As I said, if you want to talk about pickpocket suggestions, bring the original implementation of it back (when we could steal everything) but introduce a risk (severe punishment) for getting caught. Edited by: Sajuiil at: 1/1/04 1:27 pm
01-01-04, 01:54 PM
Quote:And, you as a wizard, should not bring up the pickpocket nerf (or as you call it suggestion) on rogue boards.
Heh someone else finally sees thru dress-boys nerf plan.
01-01-04, 03:08 PM
Quote:Ele/Time Enchanter: 613.13 (just the enchanter..didn't include the DC pet)
Cyn the only part that was unclear to me, was where this 613 number says you didnt include his pet.
From personal parses chainnuking, depending on wing i range from 108dps to 150ish (if im not slowing etc)
I dont typically direcharm because its a lil too safe for my playstyle but most are around 180 dps in POP zones and range up towards 300 with max buffs. Not to discount yer 600 number but thats ALOT closer to a CoD mob in bastion of thunder.
Wasnt attacking you, was just confused as to what exactly you were parsing as yer wording was unclear.
01-01-04, 03:13 PM
as far as a seperate loot table... id let the rogue be masterlooter and take rogues in guild who i know will sell all the loot they pickpocket and ML and split it with us.
01-01-04, 03:23 PM
Quote:Ele/Time Enchanter: 613.13 (just the enchanter..didn't include the DC pet)
Ok if he DC a pet then he wasn't useing CoD can u explain to me how an enchanter get 613 DPS? i mean for a wizard doing burst DPS that's a nice figure but for a chanter sound like he was using CoD and the pet DPS was include.
And if that is the case then /yawn we been around the CoD talks a few times.
Beasthealer druid 65
01-01-04, 08:36 PM
I know it exists, and the casting time on it is 30 for a stack, would take 5 mins to summon a decent amount and 1 minute to waste them all. not worth it
1) Trap Negotiation I think the consensus is ATN is broken right now. Can anyone confirm if it's improved range/refresh for sensing traps? Here's idea for fixing this ability: At lvl 3 ATN a Rogue would to be able to sense/disarm priest/caster chests in LDoN adventures.
3) Tracking We don't need track, never have. Dead horse.
5) More AA's to up our DPS through BS, better chance to hit, etc. I totally agree.
7) PvP SOS Anything that could help out a Rogue in PvP should be considered, with caution; I would hate to sacrifice PvE 'balance points' for stronger PvP abilities. Compare the number of Red servers to Blue, and I think most players would agree with that statement.
9) Epic in Range Bad idea, dead horse.
01-02-04, 07:28 AM
Trap negotiation (3) does indeed speed up the refresh of the sense trap button. I still would rather it acted as a "tingle" sense if you came close to a trap though. Allow the rogue to get a feeling a trap is ahead based on experience. I for one dont like the edge 2 steps forward sense trap, that is required on some of the Ldon Raids Khaazi Ironblade
01-02-04, 09:24 AM
Ele/Time Enchanter: 613.13 (just the enchanter..didn't include the DC pet)
That number can ONLY be gotten with a hasted charmed NORMAL(not dc) pet. An enchanter gets an 1100pt nuke with a 6 sec cast time and 8 sec recast and one CRAPPY dot. The would have to chain nuke to even come close to 100dps without a pet. A fully hasted DC pet can only break 100dps if you are lucky(they won't dual wield). Maybe you meant 61.31dps, which sounds about right.
Second, WHAT IS WRONG WITH TRIPLE BACKSTAB?? I think our class defining ability should have some type of AA associated with it no?? How about an AA that lowers backstab refresh time?? That would be very useful and not overpowering.
Thrid. Poisons are just too much dam time and effort for basically nothing. I don't want our class balance to include poisons, as other areas will suffer. If they implemented something like a slow that was unresistable or a poison that would stay on a weapon till we logged or zoned, but as it is, its just LAME. I would rather have the devs concentrate on our damage skills and weapons then worry about poisons. No more freakin traps either, another HUGE waste of time on both ends.
01-02-04, 01:04 PM
If they were smart... they would implement a "transparant" intelligence based check that is done every time a rogue within X distance picks the pocket of a MOB that has aggro on you (Read: in the same group). This opposes the rogue's pick pocket skill check and could possibly fail, but it fails transparantly.
"You spy upon Group_Rogue_01 rumaging through target's belongings."
...or somthing to that nature will come up on screen. The rogue will then have a secondary pick pocket check to see if they know that they are noticed.
"You feel Group_mate_01's eyes upon you as you steal from target."
INT casters and others who happen to have high INT for some reason or another will have a good chance of catching the rogue in the act. Simple-minded Warriors will be more likely to stare dumbly at the MOBs loot, scratching his head as if to say "Duh... hey! mah money"
1. Rogue can still steal...
2. Group gets a chance to catch him.
3. No one gets hurt if they arent paying enough attention to see what their sneaky friend is doing between stabs. Ooohh.. so shiney!
01-02-04, 02:22 PM
I used to feel that rogues needed more abilities to strengthen them as a class. After reading this very interesting and informative thread, I have changed my mind. I agree with many posters who say that Rogues are fine as they are and that it is in fact the lack of content to utilize the skills they have that is the real problem. I hated playing a rogue for a long time... well it was a love hate thing. I loved playing my rogue, I hated not being needed in groups, not having any special skills that were useful to anyone else. Then I turned 55 and PoP came out, and things changed...AA abilities, mobs hit harder or there was a time constraint and ** DPS ** mattered. Well rogues are all about DPS.
We have skills ranging from pickpocket and pick locks to make poison and apply poison... yet Verant has really made very little use of those skills.
Pickpocket/Picklocks - There is very little content worth stealing (other than required to do your epic) or finding behind a locked door. Don't get me wrong I pick pocket guards as I run past for 2pp, shields worth 8pp etc etc but I'm not getting rich off of it like druids do selling rare foraged items. I agree with a pickpocket table of some sort. I would delight at Verant adding special things rogues could pick pocket or find behind locked doors such as droppable pages, containers, ingredients or other items that other classes need for tradeskills. You know how some mobs are always wearing a certain tunic and yet NEVER drop that tunic, why couldn't Verant make stats for that item and make it PICKPOCKETABLE! Heck if I can rip the scalp off something without agroing it or grab a chunk of flesh, why can't I steal his tunic?! <laugh>. There are some neat locked doors and items like in SSRA and LDON, but that is few and far between and not the norm.
Make Poison/Apply Poison - I would be okay with all melee classes being able to APPLY poison, and even the ability to make poisons BUT not skill up (hence they could make any of the low level ones under trivial of 30 or so reliably). Why? Because that would give me a market for poisons and would help compensate me for the time/money it costs to skill up. Researchers get a droppable spell that they can turn around and sell, and it's not like they an only make spells that their class uses, they can sell to 4-5 classes. Rogues rely on other rogues buying their poisons. There are two types of rogues; rogues who make their own poisons thus would rarely buy them and rogues who think poisons are useless and thus wouldn't buy them. I sell my poisons back to the vendor at a small loss.
Overall I like playing a rogue and even though I have other characters, I always consider her my main and am fond of her =). I look foward to their being more places for rogues to apply their skills and be more useful as more than just DPS. Or just make us so much DPS that people just sit back in AWE! Kembina Tunante
~ Rogue of 65 Daggers! ~
01-04-04, 02:14 PM
Yep, I've been saying for a long time that this game was good, and could have been truely fantastic with just a little more forsight going into some of the concepts.
Fodder for how to build a good dungeon isn't hard to find. AD&D was not the first game of it's type, just one of the biggest ones. Even with just AD&D, there are reams of ideas on how to set up a good dungeon, and from the looks of the old world dungeons, someone read a few.
But then a few things got in the way. First, once a fight starts, it's kill or be killed. There is no way to be knocked out and dragged off to a jailcell, there is no way for the creature to stop attacking when you are unconcious and be left for dead. There's no way to drive a creature off---god, at level 5ish is the worst, when you can't quite kill something, it goes to run mode but your moving to slow to catch it, it heals to 50%, comes back, you hit it once, it runs, heals, comes back, runs, etc, etc...
Second, mobs have no collision, so they can run through us like no tomorrow. No hiding behind the tank, no taking cover, no such thing as an advantageous position--making skills like sneak reletivly useless in combat till they introduced evade.
Third, the developers just didn't think somethings through. They put in doors, and made them able to lock, but not able to be broken down. In the original release, they put in traps that don't seem to do anything. The simple act of making doors that could be broken down, but with a huge call for help radius that called any mob for about 2 rooms to investigate, Back this up with semi-rare key drops, where you have to 'give' the key to the door--which then opens for you for a set (long) time and leaving more doors locked would have given instant group spots to rogues, without making them required to play.
Poison is another thing that was just silly implemented, mostly in the prices to produce it, and the gathering of the ingredients. Poison components should indeed be available dropped in the wild, prefereably off mobs rogues are likely to be fighting---but they should also all be available off vendors in rogue guilds too. Perhaps with quests where you turn in rarer (very expensive off vendor) components for healthy cash, faction with the merchant (equating to better prices from that merchant on materials), or even some items, like the one where you turn in the ruby's and maybe get the earring that has the lifetap on it. For that matter, most basic poisons should be available for sale off merchants--your rogues, not craftsmen.
some poisons should have worked like potions too. Right click the poisoned dart produced by the tradeskill combine, and it 'casts' the poison on the target. There is a stinger that drops off heartsting scorpions in Feild of Bone that works like this and casts 1 charge of poison bolt. Simple, low skill combine: Poison + Dart= Poisoned Dart with 1 charge of the appropriate poison, usable at range as an opening attack.
01-04-04, 04:49 PM
*Stun With back stab* No & hell No. stun = agro no thanks
MGB Drag , all corpses ( that have consented ) in an area around the rogue are dragged.
full speed underwater sneak ..
off hand BS
shed loads more, but im not holding my breath on getting any of these, but we can but hope :P
Corpse dragger to the stars...
01-04-04, 06:26 PM
A forage style pickpocket list wouldn't be bad if it was done right. Roots and berrys would be stupid, but small (preferably stackable) objects (like rings, gems, jewelry) which could be sold(fenced) and coin might not be bad. Would all depend how its done, but given SOE's reputation, might be best to not change anything.
01-05-04, 04:20 PM
What I'd like to see can't be done. I think it's a shame that SOE gave other classes "rogue-like" abilities. As such, I'd like to see the game re-designed so that no other class could do that ability (e.g. disarm traps, open locks, etc.) as it adds more value for that class.
But in all seriousness, if they're going to re-balance the rogue, then I'd like to see:
1. Assassination - A random ability at ALL levels (a rogue is an assassin, so why wait till 60 for this), but at 60, the percentage should increase. Plus it would be nice to raise the level of the mobs that can be assassinated (e.g. bump it up to 60 or so).
2. Poisons - This is my big pet peeve. STACKABLE is a MUST. Plus the skill should not be level based (e.g. a 55 rogue is limited to 225 skill). More power! Seriously. When I started doing PoP poisons I thought "Wow, now we're going to get something great". Wrong. Don't get my wrong here, some of the poisons are amazing, but when casters nuke for thousands of damage, then why can't our poisons do the same? Plus I'd like to see poisons NOT gain aggro. Perhaps this is my own ideal of a rogue (silent and deadly). If you were poisoned by a rogue, you'd never know it until it was too late. It should be the same in the game.
3. Sneak & Hide / Shroud of Stealth - Okay, this is another pet peeve of mine. The rogue is the master of shadows and hiding, so why is it that any class with a "see invis" item be able to see them? I'd like to see the Shroud of Stealth ability removed and instead have this as the base for all sneak and hide abilities. Nobody should be able to see through it. Someone on the forum (not this thread) made a post that made perfect sense to me and that was that if they "could" see through it, then it would only be for a second, or would only be a 'ghost' image.
Just my thoughts from the class. Otherwise, I'm extremely happy with the abilities and when you get them.
01-05-04, 05:14 PM
1. Fix ATN3 to make it actually useful. Reducing the refresh timer is just ghey, especially for the points you spend on the stupid AA.
2. /shrugs, Throwing dagger endless quiver would be alright, I guess. I'll still use a bow until they pop out a comparable throwing dagger or throwing dagger item. Range on daggers sucks, damage on daggers sucks, stats on daggers sucks.
3. Poisons need to be a little more useful and a lot less time consuming. Spending 2hrs. collecting ingredients and another hour making just for 1 ten dose poison sucks. The only useful poison that I've found has been RoI and that's if it doesn't get resisted. The ornate pants makes Scoriae Bite a bit easier, but I never see it land in the PoP. Solutions:
a) Make all poison components vendor sold in PoK. I know, some of you will not like this idea, but who the hell has the time to go out farming these stupid things all the time? Make it a price increase, maybe 2pp per component and place the vendors in close proximity to each other. For those of us on slow computers the run just to get the Gnomish Ale and get back to the poison vendors can take forever.
b) Hopefully the new tradeskill patch will help to alleviate the painstacking and mindnumbing aspect to tradeskills. Making a batch of Celestial suspensions is enough to make me want to shoot myself, let alone making the actual poison.
c) Make poisons less resistable. I mean, come on, as if they weren't useless enough now they get resisted by just about everything in the game? I stuck my freaking dagger in it, I basically injected it into an artery and it resists the poison? Ghey.
d) Make old world poisons stackable, but don't change anything else. I don't want them to screw poisons and make it a @#%$-blocking proc if I want to use two -dex poisons.
That would pretty much fix poisons.
4. Make ambidex actually true ambidex. Damage mods to offhand please, thanks.
5. Planar Durability for rogues maybe? /shrugs, kind of a pipedream, we do fine without it.
6. All future illusion items/masks to be rog/bard only again, thanks. Marauder Arakasi
Deceiver - Tunare
Gale of Destruction
EZ_Finlae the Marauder
01-05-04, 07:02 PM
Please stop follow yalp as a god.
Yalp is full of bug, only Dmg output is important.
on a LDON normal i did 50k dmg more than a EP wizard
with a ifir and Stone Etched Mallet. So stop post stupid things.
Rog need serious improvment but we are in the top line of dmg tho (we overdmg wizard in lot of situation).
Quote:4. Make ambidex actually true ambidex. Damage mods to offhand please, thanks.Do you mean damage bounus applied to offhand?
That'd vastly change the desireability of many weapons (hello 20pp defender's lightblade, people cursing destroying their Claw of Lightning) more than it'd boost our DPS.
Not a good idea, IMO. Your Sister in Arms,
01-06-04, 10:50 AM
Yes, damage bonus applied to offhand, sorry for the confusion. Easiest way to work around the problems you listed is to refund the points for it. As of right now, though, ambidex is not worth the 9 AA spent on it. If it means you have to regear it's not my problem. So, what, you can spend the extra 2k and buy yourself a Gom or Legendary Dagger. Besides, with a DLB you'll still be gaining a damage bonus. Just because it's not as good of an upgrade for you doesn't mean it shouldn't be put into place. Should Sony not fix poisons just because some rogues haven't used them at all? Edited by: Arakasi Nightblade at: 1/6/04 12:17 pm
01-06-04, 11:14 AM
One thing I really have a problem with is the fact that I hit 10s 20s 30s 40s still.
Chaotic stab is almost useless when you get to elementals..sure its minimum 120 damage, but you can hit that normally with ifir.
01-06-04, 11:15 AM
Quote:Chaotic stab is almost useless when you get to elementals
Was it useful before then? Edited by: Arakasi Nightblade at: 1/6/04 12:18 pm
01-06-04, 11:28 AM
I really like taking the idea of Ambidexterity to the max for rogues.
Step one, add in an Improved Ambidexterity(or True Ambidexterity if you will). That makes ALL dual wield checks successful and also applies the damage bonus to your offhand attacks. Ambidexterity would be a prereq, and you could even give this to other classes that have Ambi.
Thats AA #1.
AA #2 would be Offhand Backstab. Self explanitory, Improved Ambidexterity is a prereq.
And then finally, Step 3 in our dual wielding mastery, Dual Throwing. Basically, it changes it so while the throwing weapon in your Range slot is still your primary throwing weapon, the throwing weapon in your Ammo slot becomes your offhand throwing weapon and you can throw both at once.
Quote:Here's idea for fixing this ability: At lvl 3 ATN a Rogue would to be able to sense/disarm priest/caster chests in LDoN adventures.
Thats a really good idea actually.
01-06-04, 11:51 AM
Just a sidenote, I think that throwing AAs would be a lot more useful to monks than to rogues. Just a thought. Edited by: Arakasi Nightblade at: 1/6/04 12:19 pm
01-06-04, 12:17 PM
Continuing on with my previous post because I remembered a couple of things:
7. Holy christ, fix bard invis song, now please. I'm tired of this stupid thing ruining my SoS and screwing my invis completely when it wears off. Enough with this already, I'm tired of it.
8. And, to concur with a previous poster, yes, underwater full speed hide/sneak. Gimme a break, why should we be screwed if we'd rather use SoS underwater? Edited by: Arakasi Nightblade at: 1/6/04 12:19 pm
Well first off I don't use a DLB, I wasn't knocking the offhand bonus proposal because it wouldn't be a good upgrade for MEMEMEMEMEEE.
DLB, however, is a weapon that was designed to be off-handed. Claw of Lightning as well (it's tagged as secondary only).
They are very high-ratio offhanders (for their time) and they were created knowing that there was no damage bonus in the offhand.
CoL can be very fast and high ratio, because if damage bonus applied it'd arguably be too good of a weapon for it's time.
DLB's high ratio makes it one of the best offhands, but because it's slow it makes kind of a crappy mainhand (little 'bonus damage' applied)
I'm sure there are more examples of items that would be broken (either for better or for worse) by implementing offhand bonus damage.
01-06-04, 01:19 PM
I will go ahead and throw my list on the heap:
1. Throwing Mastery/Throwing Conservation
2. An AA or /disc that makes Rogues immune to AE while hidden. (so we can hang behind mobs with wicked AEs and BS between waves)
3. Offhand BS
4. AE Drag
5. AE Drag
6. AA to increase the level cap on Assasinate
7. AA to train bane damage against a specific mob class (kinda like how rangers work in AD&D)
8. More weapons with Sting of Betrayal graphic
9. Set trap abilty tied in with poison skill
10. free Ragebringers for all new Rogues
Ok some of these are more serious than others.
01-06-04, 01:31 PM
About the throwing idea.
I got one I feel is better. Realistic. And more useful to alot of classes.
Just make a throwing slot. They added charm slots.
Just make a slot that you can only equip ammo in and can only throw and add a range attack hotkey "throw"
Then make it available to everyone. Dont make it add stats just like ammo doesnt add stats.
Also while they are at it add
"Throwing Ammo Bag"
A 4 to 8 slot bag that can be put in the throwing slot and can only hold ammo.
MAke this available to everyone too. The visualization is its a case, leather holder, or bag hanging at your side.
Also I would revamp throwing items for class specific stuff too. This includes casters. In most fantasy literature casters have magic darts. Assasins have poisoned stuff. etc.
01-06-04, 01:41 PM
Quote:Don't get my wrong here, some of the poisons are amazing, but when casters nuke for thousands of damage, then why can't our poisons do the same?
Er, then what would be the point of having a caster... especially with no aggro? Ports?
Wether this was severe sarcasm or true intent, I'm not too certain, but what the hell, I'll bite. Edited by: Quakereject at: 1/6/04 1:42 pm
01-06-04, 01:59 PM
That's an awesome suggestion... But I wouldn't make it open to anyone, just specific classes like Rogues, Rangers, Monks...
01-06-04, 02:11 PM
Quote:Well first off I don't use a DLB, I wasn't knocking the offhand bonus proposal because it wouldn't be a good upgrade for MEMEMEMEMEEE.
I know you don't, I don't either, but the ragebringer isn't that great of an offhander with a damage bonus either.
Quote:DLB, however, is a weapon that was designed to be off-handed. Claw of Lightning as well (it's tagged as secondary only).
/shrugs. So what? DLB was made as an offhand weapon, big deal. It's 50-200pp max anymore, not really worth anything anyway. Don't get me wrong, I used to use one, however, it's not like damage bonus in offhand HURTS the DLB either, all it can do is help. Also, damage bonus in offhand gives rogues some incentive to ditch the ragebringer in offhand so we can increase DPS without having to worry as much about the loss of 40atk. Offhand damage bonus does not hurt high delay weapons, it can only help, but it does give a bit more realism and use to Ambidex and it allows for higher end rogues to gain more benefit from those low delay offhanders as an offset to the extra aggro that they generate. Also, considering that most rogues, past the Rage/DLB stage are switching their main dagger to their offhand dagger when they get a new mainhand upgrade, it makes this combonation with the lower delay weapons more useful for the offhand. Also, with the added damage bonus we won't have the right to complain any longer about how we eat ripostes a lot easier than someone using a 2handed weapon because we have that damage bonus to offhand to tack on to what we have in our mainhand. Where's the downside? Just because some people may or may not want to upgrade their DLB in offhand is hardly a reason to oppose something that will add versatility to dual wielding classes and something that will increase damage any way that you look at it.
01-06-04, 03:23 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread but I'd love to see them toss in the following:
An innate BS mod AA that would work as a 3 level AA with something like 1, 2 and 3 percent natural BS mod that stacks with all existing items BS mods.
More variety with poison options, like being able to poison multiple weapons at a time and allowing non rogue classes to apply certain poisons would be another nice addition. Also more vendor purchasable components instead of the mundane task of farming greens over nad over.
The suggestion of a full-speed underwater sneak and sneak/hide not breaking on zoning is a great one too, hope we see that and IHMO they're long over due.
Those are the 3 things I would like to see most as new rogue only AA's.