Thinking about triple backstab

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

I got to thinking about how things will change albeit subtly when triple backstab comes into play.

I came up with some notes.
1) Triple backstab will manifest as more importance for the mainhand weapon.
For example right now I parsed 38% of my dps coming from backstab. Lets say they target a 2% increase in dps from the 24aa currently sloted for triple backstab according to rumor. (im not part of an NDA). Maybe its 1% who knows... either way its a number. Now if you get 38% of your dps is from backstab (thats just a number i had on MM the other night) and they desire approximately a 2% increase in dps through backstab to pull that off backstab would rise to about 42% of your total damage.

This is going to manifest as increased importance on your mainhand.
2) #1 causes us to note that rage will be even more popular as your offhand will go to a smaller percentage of your total damage. Its the epic that just keeps on giving.

3)Offhand is an easier slot then mainhand so we also note that increase rogue damage via backstab favors highend rogues.

4) I view triple backstab skeptically. It would have to happen alot to be a significant increase in dps because its only operating on 35 to 40% of your dps. So to get a 4% increase in dps through backstab you would need to pump backstab dps by ~9 to 12% depending on who you target.

5) the effect of triple backstab should be easy to measure. Triple backstab is an easy effect to parse. However the actual dps gain should be almost impossible to parse until the very last level. Parsing 1 to 4% increases in dps is next to impossible. However we will implicitly be able to derive the probable dps increase from the triple backstab rate which will be easy to parse.

[Jazya]

First, let me say that I'm really glad they went with triple backstab instead of offhand backstab.

Though I don't really understand what you're saying here, Qutie... Quote:Offhand is an easier slot then mainhandBy this do you mean, to find good weapon for, as it does not need to be either a high-damage, or even a piercing weapon?

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

The reason could be wrong but the effect is real and thats the important part:
offhand percentage typical falls as you get more uber.

I been parsing a long long time through a whole range of guilds and uber and the offhand has become a steadily smaller percentage of my overall damage.

Its prolly a combination of offhand being less respondant to attack and its easier to get uber offhands relative to the offhands used at all but the very tip top end of the game.

Im just saying a backstab AA will have a disportionate percentage increase in dps effect on a time rogue with 350AAs then a guildless rogue with 350AAs. In almost the opposite of the rage/defenders type setup seeing disportionatly large increases from ambidex. Shouldnt be that noticable though. Unless they go hog wild with triplebackstab the dps increase should be really difficult to parse out.

thats not broken Im just noting.



Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 1/15/04 4:22 pm

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:First, let me say that I'm really glad they went with triple backstab instead of offhand backstab.

I'm not, because offhand backstab would have been a bigger damage increase.

I'm sorry, but at my stage of the game(elementals) I can't REMEMBER the last time I saw a rogue that wasn't already dual wielding piercers, and I'm sorry, any rogue poker will outdamage ANY other rogue usable offhander at any given stage of the game if you can backstab with it. Period. I don't care how awsome that mace from quarm is or whatever, you would still do ALOT more damage with a backstabbing DoD or Ifir.

[EZ_Amerzel]

If that was true then why make 1hs and 1hb even a viable option. I like the idea but its not something I can see being put into the game.

Amer

[DarthEnderX]

I never thought they were a viable option. I, like most rogues I know, always try and get the most powerful poker possible for my mainhand. And everytime I get a new mainhand weapon, whatever was my mainhand weapon becomes my offhand weapon. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 1/15/04 10:59 pm

[EZ_Dazzler Twodirks]

24 AA points????

That's insane and unreasonable considering we don't get ANY aa's for damage that are unique besides Chaotic Stab.

15 I could see but 24 is just unfair. Dazzler Twodirks High Speed Quisinart for Hire
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Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ

Dazzlers Shtuff

[EZ_SincroFashad]

I'm going to totally disagree with you, Raven. At my stage of the game (time) I see a *lot* of rogues with a slasher or blunt in the off-hand. I myself (once I replace my haste, I'm in a temporary bind) use a Stone Etched Mallet in the off-hand. The simple fact is, you can find a far better delay, earlier, with a blunt or a slasher in your off-hand.

Off-hand backstab would force rogues into a duel-piercer mode, having two basic effects. First, every rogue to whom the skill was available would be duel-wielding piercers. (duh)Second, the price of every droppable piercer that is even remotely high-end would skyrocket.

How would this affect rogues at my level? Probably not much. Probably not those in the elemental stage, either. Most if not all of us have multiple raid-level piercers at our disposal. Those rogues who do not have that luxury get screwed, though. It would in effect tie them to their epic even more then before, and heavily restrict upgrade paths fr them.

Triple backstab was the way to go, not off-hand backstab. -Sinc

There is no I in team, but there is a U in suck.

[DarthEnderX]

Well I disagree.

This time next month I would have rather been qetting the quad backstabs that offhandbackstabbing would have offered over the Triple BSs we're gonna be getting now. Especially since instead of just making Triple BS work like triple attack(i.e. to triple attack, you need to have 2 successful double attack checks in a row) they've tied it to the levels you have in the AA ability. Meaning who knows how often Triple Backstab is actually going to work.

[Yalum]

So go ahead and pretend that the third backstab is coming from your offhand when it fires. The two skills are functionally equivalent up until you have offhand double backstab, which would take another year or two worth of expansions anyway.

Bleh, I've been awake too long, keep second guessing my own math. My point is that if they want to give us a 1.5% dps boost it will be 1.5% whether it comes from mainhand, offhand, mug, or the kick on Instill Doubt. Edited by: Yalum at: 1/16/04 9:03 am

[EZ_Nykor]

There are a million and one ways that they could implement this.

In fact right now, I'm not really sure there is anything concrete describing how we get a double backstab. I know that X% of the time I get a second backstab after I land the first. I'm guessing that a triple backstab will occur Y% of the time we get a second backstab.

That being said if this is going to wind up being a fairly significant increase in DPS, I'm overjoyed. I've been waiting for years now for an AA that provided a measurable difference in my output.

I would love to know what sort of difference it works out to before I make any sort of judgement calls on cost. Depending on how that works out, 24 AA may be a very small price to pay.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

"My point is that if they want to give us a 1.5% dps boost it will be 1.5% whether it comes from mainhand, offhand"


Not possible with the current mechanics.


In my days as a 65 rogue my average backstab % for my gear has moved from 32 to 38%

Lets make a table
Base backstab%&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Resulting% of old backstab&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp net gain0.32&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3328&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01280.33&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3432&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01320.34&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3536&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01360.35&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.364&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.0140.36&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3744&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01440.37&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3848&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01480.38&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.3952&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01520.39&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.4056&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.01560.4&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.416&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.0160.41&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.04&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.4264&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 0.0164

Its impossible for them really to target a flat inflation across all gear setups. 33 to 38% from backstab prior is prolly the most resonable. If they target a 1.5% gain the 33% sees a 1.32 gain and the 38 sees a 1.5 gain. That doesnt seem huge and isnt as long as triple backstab is weak. However youll note that the percentage difference in result is quite large the 33% from backstab rogue only sees 86% of the gain that a 38% backstab rogue sees.


Is this a problem? Prolly not. It aggregates the advantage of high attack though as that is prolly the leading thing that vaults your backstab%. (ie youll notice more if your average more max backstabs tripled then more min backstabs tripled)

[EZ_Katsuo Muramasa]

We asked for Triple backstab and we got it. Whats the next thing we do????? COMPLAIN!!! WTF ppl. You got what you wanted now your going to cry about it?

Now we are complaining that its only going to be 1.5% more DPS. Hmm lets see. Why does a Rogue with Max AA do more then a rogue with no AA? ( Same gear to keep that in mind. )
Because all those different AA's that give that little 1.5% ADD UP.

Don't look at the small picture. You don't get to far. Look at the big picture. Katsuo Muramasa | BLood of Ro | Profile

[EZ_Jessper233]

1.5% was a made up number used for an example.

[EZ_Katsuo Muramasa]

I know, was just useing it as an example. I'm sure TBS will offer more then 1.5%. Katsuo Muramasa | BLood of Ro | Profile

[EZ_Ronie Frown]

For 24AA it better be able to part water

[EZ_Garrik le Jackal]

I think tripple backstab was a sorry excuse for an AA - I wish they would have come up with something a little more creative - its not as if we need to do more damage!

Mug seems to be a cool ability, very rogueish. I'd like to see more of that instead of tripple, quad, etc etc backstabs.

There is more to a rogue than stabbing! We can like.. dance and sing as well if we are drunk and err. well, doh, ok, lets just do damage and shut up. Character Profile
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[EZ_Gefling]

Oh noz! 24 whole aa! I would have had a problem with this back when an aa took 4 hours or more. You can easily grind an aa every 45 min or so now. I would hate to be in Sonys position as there doesn't seem to be pleasing anyone. I for one think that its a nice addition. AA costs shouldnt be too much of a concern as there aren't alot of new ones that I would consider vital.

-Gef

[EZ_Dazzler Twodirks]

Quote:Oh noz! 24 whole aa! I would have had a problem with this back when an aa took 4 hours or more. You can easily grind an aa every 45 min or so now. I would hate to be in Sonys position as there doesn't seem to be pleasing anyone. I for one think that its a nice addition. AA costs shouldnt be too much of a concern as there aren't alot of new ones that I would consider vital.

That's the point , beyond Escape and Shroud of Stealth we don't GET any must have aa skills.

Finally we get one for damage and the cost is thru the roof.

[EZ_Peorth12]

Quote:I think tripple backstab was a sorry excuse for an AA - I wish they would have come up with something a little more creative - its not as if we need to do more damage!

Yeah, i guess we dont need to do more damage because we all have Timeforge Blades and Ifirs. Sarcasm aside though, most people dont have access to uber weapons and has hit the attack cap, so i think any DPS AA is a welcome addition.

Its no mystery that DPS is our niche. I don't know about the rest of you, but ill take any AA if it means an increase in DPS.


*Edit* Forgot to mention, i think i'd pay 24AA for a slight DPS increase. Kinda expensive, but what the hey... Peorth
65 Deceiver
Fury's Edge

Wintermelon
Warrior Alt~Edited by: Peorth12 at: 1/17/04 7:18 am

[EZ_Quakereject]

Well yeah, I mean.. what else were ya gonna spend em on, innate lung capacity? <shrug>

24 AA's is cheap, and it may very well end up being more expensive as the beta comes to a close.

I'll pay it, you'll pay it, fact is, everyone's gonna pay it, because it's what we do, damage, and even a slight increase makes us that much better at our job.

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:We asked for Triple backstab and we got it. Whats the next thing we do????? COMPLAIN!!! WTF ppl. You got what you wanted now your going to cry about it?

I didn't ask for Triple backstab. In fact, I specifically DIDN'T want people to ask for Triple Backstab because it wasn't going to make for a specific DPS increase(back when I thought it was just gonna work the same way as triple attack i.e. 2 consecutive double attack checks), but if everyone kept asking for it, it would be all we'd end up getting. And damned if that didn't happen!



But now we got triple backstab. Thats fine. But I'm not gonna stop demanding offhand backstab! Go hexastab!

[EZ_FritohChip]

cant wait, hopefully it'll be a nice dps boost Edited by: FritohChip at: 1/18/04 3:32 pm

[EZ_Syldin]

Quote:I'm not, because offhand backstab would have been a bigger damage increase.

So would increasing the assassinate cap to level 80 - what's your point ? ;p

[EZ_Rekcim]

Quote:But now we got triple backstab.

We do?? Still haven't seen any confirmation of this yet, so maybe we are jumping the gun. It would be pretty cheesy of SoE not to give us a backstab aa finally. 24 AA is insane for people who play EQ a normal amount. I am guessing 24 aa is the total aa to get to level 3 of the AA. Myabe like 6/8/10 or something like that. Should be 2/4/6...

[EZ_Xander2501]

its a lot of aa , i agree , but, if it does increase dmg ill take it , that and Seized Oppurtunity have elements that I like that sound like they would significantly help.

[EZ_solesk]

raven. i think your making an assumption that would not be true. if they gave us offhand backstab what makes you think it would double? i seriously doubt it would. so now your still only talking about tripple backstab, yet your limiting offhand to a piercer. which has always been worse ratio than slashing and blunt. the reason you dont see more rogues offhanding slashing and blunt is they dont want to spend the dkp for an offhand. but late in the elementals / time, many do in fact give up the old off hand piercer mantra.

so by giving offhand backstab to rogues your actually getting less of a dps increase than out of tripple backstab. because all those rogues with better offhand weapons would be forced to bank them for a worse ratio piercer. with this current implimentation they are allowed to keep their high ratio off hand yet still get another backstab attack.

not to mention i think you'd be further limiting our class choices. when it comes to weapons everyone would just want the next best peircer. there would be no choices left.

[EZ_Rekcim]

Again, where is the post stating that we are getting triple backstab?? Is this a rumor or based on truth??

[EZ_Xander2501]

I think its being tested in beta.

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:raven. i think your making an assumption that would not be true. if they gave us offhand backstab what makes you think it would double?

I don't exactly, the way I figured it would work is this. Every time you click backstab, it also makes a dual wield check. If successfull, you backstab with your offhand at the same time. Then, a double attack check is made for THAT backstab as well and if successful, your offhand would double backstab.

With Ambi, my dual wield checks are about, I dunno, 75% successful.

Of course, I've asked for Dual Backstab in about every thread that even remotely discussed the topic of rogue AAs or improvements, and in all of those threads I also mentioned another AA I wanted to see.

True Ambidexterity: Make all dual wield checks successful and applies your damage bonus to offhand attacks. Thus making your offhand just as good as your mainhand(which is, after all, the meaning of Ambidexterity).

And that skill would have been a prereq for Offhand Backstab.

[EZ_solesk]

um, what you want and what soe would most likely do are two different things.

not to mention what your asking for seems to be a double backstab check of 100% (even though it may miss the mob) so your not aonly talking about upping how often double fires, but adding on two extra attacks? no offence. but what your asking for would be too overpowered and soe would never give it to us.

so yes. i still believe your assumption is wrong. because it's not what soe would do. and even if they did i still believe it further limits class choices.

[EZ_Khalek Darkflame]

It already sucks enough to be limited to a piercer in primary. I find our weapon selection quite limited because of this and I would take tripple BS over offhand BS any day. I'm finally getting close to replacing my offhand epic, and I'll be damned if an offhand BS skill would force me to put another lousy ratio piercer there. I haven't used a blunt or slasher for over a year and a half, and I have to say that I miss it.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

I was just pointing out the decisions that make have implication.

For example they could raise backstab DPS by the same theoretical amount by raising the min hit via AAs.

In practice this has implication because it brings lower geared rogues closer to their higher geared counter parts because a weaker geared rogue sees more min hits then a stronger geared counterpart.

Theres always some subtle side effects if you dig.

What they could do to null out triple backstabs preference effect is to pair it with a min hit raise in the same "Backstab Forte AA"

They could then pair down the triple backstab dps gain and match it with a min hit that accomplishes the same AA.

That would the triple backstab gain would favor rogues at the attack cap but the min hit part would favor rogues with no attack gear. Together they would accomplish a nice even lift to the rogues across all gear ranges.



Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 1/19/04 10:52 am

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:no offence. but what your asking for would be too overpowered and soe would never give it to us.

I suppose that might be true now, after all, I've been asking for it since Luclin, and the game has changed since then.

Oh well, I'm sure in another couple expansions worth of bigger caster nukes we'll be back to the point where dualbackstab won't be overpowering.

As for being restricted to your weapon choices, I've always liked it myself. While alot of other weapons usually go for enormous amounts of DKP, any good rogue usable piercer is usually either rogue only, or if not rogue only, our raid leaders only allow rogues to bid on them, for awhile anyway. The end result of this, because only the rogues are bidding, is we get weapons for ALOT less than most other classes. Hell, sometimes, on rogue only piercers, the 3 or 4 rogues on the raid will all agree to bid 1 point and just roll on it.

[EZ_AsturiasAurora]

Raven, when you press the Backstab button it doesn't do a check against Dual Wield at all. If that were the case, we would have already HAD offhand backstab ages ago and all the wishes for GoD aa's would have been answered by those that asked it.

Quite honestly I think it checks against double attack. We actually stab twice with the same hand, very quickly like, when we double backstab. Folks who offhand their Quarm hammers and whatever-swords don't stab with them.

No matter what though, Triple Backstab looks to be entertaining at least, even if its dps doesn't amount to anything more than eye-candy. Once you hit 65 and elemental+ stages, there's not a whole lot to do besides grind out infinite AA. Look at the folks out there that have 400+ AA's, it's not like they have anyplace else to put the experience

On that note however, 24 aa's for all three stages of triple backstab does seem a bit high UNLESS and ONLY unless it has the same chances to hit as Double Backstab does for us currently. If it has a ridiculously low hit rate (which I'm sure the number-crunchers on this board will tell us shortly after the expansion is released) then maybe I won't bother to invest in it until later down the road.

I also do not feel that implementing such a thing as offhand backstab itself would be detrimental for anyone except those that choose not to use piercers offhand. I don't think it would drive up the prices of top-end daggers because frankly there are none....none droppable anyways. Most of the good Rogue daggers are No Drop from PoP mobs or rather difficult boss mobs from some other expansions (other than maybe the Acid Pocked blade, but I don't consider that "top-end").

I myself have never been a big fan of having anything BUT piercers in my hands as to me it just seems more "roguish" but I do acknowledge that there are some pretty nifty hammers and swords out there I may obtain someday that would make me reconsider that view

That's just my thoughts though.

Click the pic for my Magelo

[DarthEnderX]

Quote:Raven, when you press the Backstab button it doesn't do a check against Dual Wield at all. If that were the case, we would have already HAD offhand backstab ages ago

Um, no @#%$. I know it doesn't check against dual wield. The whole idea behind the Offhand Backstab AA is to MAKE it check against dual wield.

[EZ_Shamroc1]

AA prices should have been double what they currently are/were. Would keep players in the game longer and give players more of a feeling of accomplishment when they bought new skills

[EZ_Xander2501]

yea some of these aa's are pretty obviously just time sinks

[EZ_Pickk Pockket999]

24 AAs is not unreasonable at all. Almost every class has an AA that is around that expensive. Take mages for instance, they got shafted on the canni-nerf (about half their AAs were only good for canni-petting) and the one really good AA they are getting (lets buffs and bard songs hit pets) costs 20-24 AAs.

So don't get all up in arms about it, you could theoretically do 24 AAs in one day and there is no reason even the most casual player couldn't save 24aas but the time Discord comes out (if you start now).

[EZ_Xander2501]

Wow id like to see someone do 24 aa in a day .. the only way i can figure it possible is maybe 24 straight hours of Elemental expng with a time equipped guild

[EZ_Pickk Pockket999]

I had my account suspended to discover how I got 57 AAs in one day (was legit doing AE kiting pre nerfs in HoH) so 24 is definitely possible. Infact, if you can leech off of an enchanter in HoH you can get an AA at least every 40 minutes. When I say a day I mean literally a 24 hour period of non stop exping.